Hi all.
This time we could see Ted delete a tread where a lot of members did post replies,
good or bad, on topic of the tread or not.
This is totally wrong, in the tread there was also replies to our Administrator
who also had some comments to some of the posts.
When delete treads like this, where are the democratic rights to the rest of the
members who also wrote replies?

That the topic being "twisted" is not any new happening at any forum, that
happens all the time. Just look back in the "history" of pages.

I've copied into this tread a quote of one of my replies who are deleted, and I
might as well copy into some others to, this tread will not be deleted by me, so
if that happens, it have to be done by the Administrator or the Moderator.

Sad regards
GJ

QUOTE:

Yes Nigel, I agree that anyone who starts a tread have the option to delete it,
but as soon as there is any replies from other members in it, that option should
have been closed.
It's OK to delete your own posts or tread, but not as soon as there is a reply who
don't nessesarily fit to the policy of the author, or that the answer is not what
you would like to hear.
As I see it, the replies are also done by individuals who have the right to be heard
before theyr replies is being deleted, as long as there is no such things that is
illegal or wrong in the policy of this boards policy.
If the post written can't stand, even after there have been some replies in it, it
should not have been posted at all.
If this have happened just once I don't think anyone would have noticed at all, but
when it happens time after time mostly by the same "treadstarter", then you can't
avoid to notice, and also ask some questions about it.
When it is the moderator who does it several times, then the question about sencorship
may strike your mind??
(Locking of some treads do also make me think that way.)

No nigel, I don't think there is any problem to have a "leader" as long as the way to
lead is like the way we see this SZ forums Admimistrator does it, but I'm not sure that
the moderator thing we've seen during the past time here at SZ Technics forum is what we really need, or is it?
Kind regards,
GJ

It is unfortunate that Ted felt compelled to pull his thread, but I respect the fact that he made his decision based on what he believes & he can't be fairer than that.

the reason I feel it was unfortunate is that the continued deleting of these threads no matter how unpalatable or unsavoury they seem is not conducive to having a happy & harmonious forum because the root cause of the problem will never get aired & that ultimately will be the demise of the forum.

for this forum to succeed there has to be debate for conflicting points of view if there is not debate then all that will be left is a skeleton of members because the majority will be gone.

Of course there are from time to time jealous non Technics owners that try to get involved in the discussions whose only aim is to wind people up & create negativity but I am sure you can deal with them no problem.

I consider that a thread of some 27 posts of different points of view to be a successful thread albeit for one rather pathetic insulting post to which I feel some members had dealt with admirably.But the point is people had the opportunity to have some input & the last thing they wish to see is that their contribution has been wiped out.

A request please no private emails on this, If you do or don't agree with what I say then post it here.

I appeal to you all as members of this forum that , if you are interested enough in the first place to create a thread then stick with it thick & thin. If posts become abusive then I am sure Nigel will deal with it.
Please do not delete your thread just because the argument does not seem to be going your way.
Best Regards
Johnnie

Hi All,

I am back for just one more comment. I said in my last post last night that I was voting with my feet and walking away from this nonsensical site and I meant it. I checked back this morning to see if there had been a reply to my post and found the thread deleted. Like Johnnie, I respect Ted's right to close the thread. But I disagree with Johnnie when he says, and I paraphrase, "we must have a free exchange of views and opinions." NO! This is not a discussion group mulling over issues. This is a site to assist each other to learn to use a complex hi-tech keyboard to create music. You want to discuss issues and browbeat forum members? JOIN A CHAT ROOM! I want to learn to play a keyboard. I could care less what your individual opinions are of various members of this forum. Just tell me how to set up my board or use a particular feature of it. I don't need all the superfluous, inane, and irrelevant chatter. Get back to the original purpose of this forum and that is (or WAS I thought): TO HELP EACH OTHER TO BECOME BETTER TECHNICS KEYBOARD PLAYERS.

Sincerely Disgusted, Chuck

I agree with both Ted and Gunnar. Ted did the right thing by deleting personal attacks from the forum. He explained his position well. Gunnar started a new thread of his choosing that expresses his opinion well. That thread can only be deleted by Gunnar or the forum administration. A public forum is not the place to display a dislike for any other person. None of us wants to hear someone else's opinion of other people. We want to hear about music and primarily Technics products. And, just like a healthy work environment, we need a little diversion with humor and personal stuff about our forum friends from time to time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chuck Piper:
[B]Hi All,
I am back for just one more comment.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hi Chuck
It is good that you have decided to return & contribute with a post.
It is also good to see that you decided to join in the debate.
I am very glad that you have had the opportunity to express your point of view.

Gunnar Johnny while it would be nice to allow deleting of just the thread owner's posting alone it is simply not an option with the BBS software. The choice is either as it is now, or to prevent posting deleting completely. I am reluctant to prevent all deleting of postings.

I understand exactly what you are saying but there is no practical way to achieve that.

Hi Nigel.
Thank's for your reply.
I have no problem to understand the limit of the used software, and I
clearly see your points stated out here.
But, as far as I can see it, the way this forum turn out regarding to
delete posts because it simply don't fit to the policy of using this
board as a personal "fileswap and mailing club", or some questions or
words said that someone would like not been written, then it would be
more fair that the posts was not deleteable at all, or even better,
only deleteable by the Administrator, who at this board is you.
Then everyone would be treated equal, not depending of who there is who
might have the same point of view as others or not.

I know some of the members here think it is enough now, and may ask why I
simply not let it go, and just keep quiet.
If I did, in my point of view, that is the same as I do accept this way
of sencorship, AND I DON'T !!
The posts deleted was legal posts, done by members as good as any others,
and if I can avoid that happen once again, then it is worth it.

SZ is a excellent board, containing several sections of forums, and why
don't we see this kind of actions at the other ones?
Yes I know, there are some threads deleted by the authors in all forums,
but not the way we've seen it happened here, not as far as I remeber.
And I can't remember frequently discussions of topics like we've seen in
SZ Technics forum at any of the other parts of SZ, or am I wrong?

If this policy continue, I think there is time to concider a look around
for another place to "settle down", and to be honest, it would be even
more sad than when we "moved" from Technote.
I can't help it, but there are some words from a newly deleted post who
still rings in my ears, even if it was not directed to me:
Maybe I don't belong here at all ............

Kind, but sad regards,
GJ

Nigel
Thank you for your input & your guidance.A lot would of course have to be taken into consideration if you ever decided a total restriction & ban all deleting of posts completely, it could work to the detriment of the forum in that editing would not be an option & people could lose interest & not bother & I think that is the last thing any of us would want to happen.

You must agree that it comes to something when your very own posts are wiped out by another individual & I am sure that you are not exactly over the moon about it & I am also sure you understand how myself & others might feel who have had it happen on several occasions

I have on more than one occasion been solicited by email inviting me to delete a thread or a post by more than one person this I can only put down to somebody else not liking me to have a point of view which does not agree with their own . My posts are always there for all to see & if a member does not agree or like what I say then they should do the decent thing in a grown up way & post putting their own view I'm a big boy I can take it.

There is no doubt in my own mind that there is a little inner group that are trying to manipulate just what goes up on the board & what does not, by inviting people to delete & I believe that if this was to continue

Well I think I will leave that bit open for now
Best Regards Johnnie

In my opinion, there should be only one person able to delete an entire thread and that is Nigel. It is HIS Forum and any deletion should be at his discretion. I understand that the Forum is a place for the free exchange of views on many topics, related to our mutual interests and as such, is bound to get a little 'Heated' at times. However, when comments become downright offensive, then it is probably time for the Administrator to take action, maybe by deleting the thread, or if practical, deleting the offending entry. It may also be effective for the Administrator to issue a warning to any member who posts what he considers to be offensive material. Persistent offenders could be excluded from the forum.
Whilst this may sound like censorship, I don't believe it will be seen as such. It is just a suggestion - for what it is worth.

------------------
Willum

Bill,

I second your thoughts. There must be control and only Nigel should exercise it.

Exactly my point Bill and Fran, because then
everybody will be treated in the same way as
the rest of the SZ Forums members, "The Nigel
Way"
GJ

I also agree. It's Nigel's board and it should be his decision. If someone wants to delete his or her post or thread, they can ask Nigel for permission and let him decide which course of action to carry out. And, to Chuck Piper, I hope this site can continue to be a learning place, but with banter and asides, we learn a little more about each other and sometimes actually make friends that way. All work and no play.....

My thoughts too Bud.

If Music be the.............Let's Play on.
Derek

I don't know if this has been mentioned previously but I know of some other forums where apart from the moderator who can delete any post or thread at any time, an individual member can delete or amend his or her own post but must do so within a certain time limit, say 2 hours. So that gives the poster time to reconsider his/her post and change or delete something that perhaps shouldn't have been said.

That system seems to work very well where I've seen it used.

Peter, while changing to different software may allow this it would certainly mean losing the past 4 years of messages under the current software. There is no BBS standard that allows updating UBBS forums to completely different software. The main reason I haven't even updated this software 5.4 to the latest 6.1 version is that the current version doesn't support importing V5.xx forums. In my opinion the postings are more valuable than new software features. I will always look at alternative options but it would take this current system breaking down before I would consider changing systems.

But if you know what software the BBS systems you mention are running I will certainly investigate them as possible future options.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 08-06-2002).]

Again, I agree fully in your reply here Nigel, and that is also
a very good reason to prevent such as the frequently deleting that
we've seen here at this part of the SZ board.
What we've seen is not software-related at all as far as I can see
it, but more a question about how many there is to have the power to
do this sort of actions.
I'm wondering a bit about if we still are going to see the kind of
"partisan censorship" on this forum as we have seen it been done up
to now?
next time it happens, would it then be worth a try to run this forum
with one "Chief in charge" instead of two as it is now?
Hopeful regards,
GJ

If you have something really important to say - start a new post, and then YOU will be in control of the direction it takes. Like it or not - some quidelines of censorship are needed and very present in everyday life, as well as here on the BBS.
Mark me down for one vote to "leave it alone"

Ithink Uncle Dave has hit the nail on the head! It seems to me (since I seem to be the one who initiated this discussion in the first place, I think), if there is a specific NEW point being made, a NEW post would be in order. In that way, only the person who initiates the thread can delete it and comments cannot be lost within the context of another post and its subsequent threads. If one has a complaint about an individual or his/her message(s), why not contact that person via e-mail and not make a public vendetta here on the Forum?! To some degree, I do concur with Bill Norrie that perhaps Nigel should be the only one to delete offensive or unsavory messages. And it would be great if we who write the posts could edit and perhaps delete the part(s) of the thread that we disagree with, but I suppose that would also be considered censorship. So, as I see it, the whole disussion is a moot one! I echo my original sentiments again: let's get back to the real business of the Forum, namely exchange of Technics keyboard fun and information sharing! Wouldn't that be grand!

Ted Rose

Sorry UD, that is simply not true here at the Technics part of SZ.
If you've been watching the things going on here, you would have
seen that it is not only Nigel who is in control.
Here have been started new posts/threads when it is other than the
author or Administarator who delete the posts, and that is the real
point of this discussion.

No argue about that there have to be some sort of sencorship, but
as said before, it would be nice if that could be left for Nigel
to do, in that case we would all be treated equal, not depending
of who, why or what..
Remeber, this is the only forum of the SZ BBS who have a additional
Moderator who also have the power to delete whatever tread or post
there is.
GJ

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ted Rose:
If one has a complaint about an individual or his/her message(s), why not contact that person via e-mail and not make a public vendetta here on the Forum?!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ted
I have to disagree with you totally on your point of sending a private e-mail to a thread subscriber when you either disagree with their point of view or maybe just don't like what they are saying.Lets be honest about this that's just like spying on your neighbour from behind closed curtains I.E certain members sit back read all that is going on decide what they don't like then send an e-mail that way they become a ghost & never contribute anything constructive to the forum surely it is the opposite that is required, let more members become involved & take part OPENLY.

With respect you had in your thread some 27 posts but for your own reasons to which you stated then pulled the plug & deleted the whole thread. You then started almost immediately a new thread on virtually the same subject which is still running .You have now joined this thread to put your point of view once again . The difference here is that your opinion will remain on view because Gunnar Johnny has stated that he will not delete the thread for any reason & rightly so.

I stand next to Bill Norrie & Gunnar Johnny on the issue of who should be able to delete whole threads & that to have two moderators is not what is required.
Nigel has already stated that certain criteria are automatically filtered so to have a second moderator on the Technics Discussion Forum is surplus to requirements

This has absolutely nothing to do with personalities but is an opinion about good constructive management
Johnnie

Hmmm, so the moderator, as well as Nigel, AND the original poster all have control huh? Seems like a large chain of command. My guess is that the moderator's job is to take some of the burdon of monitoring discussions off of Nigel. If that is the case, then the moderator is acting on behalf of the forum's voice and should also have "delete" rights. It seems that the moderator is Nigel's voice when Nigel is busy. Am I right about this?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
[ Am I right about this?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In a word - No!

UD, you're perfectly right in that it is the way it should
have been, or should be, but I'm sorry to say that is not
the way it has worked out here in the past.
GJ