Hi All,

I saw this topic in one of the other forums here and I thought it might make a good discussion here since the Composer topic had a lot of posts.

Review:
On the other forum many Pro players felt they only needed and only used 8 to 10 styles as long as they were of good quality. Others felt that because they compose new music with their instruments they needed more styles to keep the music from sounding the same.

My View:
I'm one who likes to hear songs in different arrangements. So the more styles the better. Often I'll sit down and play the same song to three or four different styles while I practice the song. Since the chords and the melody are the same I can learn the song without getting bored and evaluate the different versions to find the one I like best.

Plus I too write music using various methods but I’m not an arranger so not only do I find a style can inspire a new song but they can add the depth that I don’t know how to do.

I hope to find this an interesting topic

Sincerely,
Heather

MY TAKE.
I start a style with an intro, listen to the 4 breaks and style changes, listen to the pads and the ending, all never playing a note. If this reminds me of a song, I will then play the song and maybe another one or just jam with it. I then decide to keep it or not at that point. The majority of custom files are deleted. Few meet my criteria.
Good topic Heather
Bebop

I like to have many styles available for me to choose from when I get ready to sit down and sequence a song.

I will start with 12 selections of styles to choose from in the composer memory while sequencing a song. (That's 3 banks of 4 variations each)

During the sequencing of the song I will probably use from 5 to 10 changes in styles to fit the particular passages of the song.

I use mostly the first variation of the style as I like to add my own enhancements as I build the sequence.

Sometimes I can use the intro, ending or even the fill ins, by adding some enhancements also.

It is a lot of fun for me.

Very interesting subject.

Larry G

Yes - good subject - it'll certainly bring out the differences in the way different folk approach their musical entertainment
As for me, well I have to have as near the original representation of the sound that I can get so this sometimes means cannibalising midi files to get 4 good variations; an intro; and an ending - why?
Well I play for the public and I want instant recognition and positive response particularly when they are dance numbers...it also helps Sammi-lu my singer to get the feel of the song when she's performing.
So currently some 600 songs on my SD card and probably nearly the same number of styel files supporting those songs - do I use the factory rhythms in my KN7000 - hardly at all!!!
Roger M

Hi Heather,
thank you for bringing up the subject. I certainly find it a fascinating one.


Larry,
just out of interest, you explained the method you use when you sequence a song ( fascinating( you apparently build up your arrangements track by track after laying down a style foundation ) but do you use the same method if someone happens to ask you to play a song for them in arranger mode , or do you just find a single style that suits the song.

best wishes
Rikki

Heather, actually this topic has been discussed a few times, usually in response to someone stating they don't need any styles other than the onboard styles. Personally, I prefer options when I compose or record and I will search the net for styles posted for other keyboards and spend months converting them for my use. I don't use a style again once I record with it so it tends to keep my music fresh. I start out with a theme such as gospel, country, Christmas, etc., and then with a song in mind I search for a proper style within a tempo range that fits the song. I seldom use a style to find a song, but it sometimes happens. Once I find a group of styles that are close in tempo to what I require, the hunt begins! I may spend days searching for just the right background, or I may find it right away, and sometimes I have to take a tired out long discarded style and rebuild it to what I want. I like to push the limits when it comes to using different styles for certain types of music, and onboard styles don't give me enough to chose from. For instance, for gospel music players there are only a few styles in that catagory, but one can use ballads, latin styles, country and even rock to do the songs. When you mix it up, you create interesting sounding music. See See Rider calls for a moderate blues tempo, but try it with a country train style and the song takes on a whole new identity. The combinations of different styles with the wide range of instruments available give us the chance to explore the musical universe and never look back! I may never use a lot of the styles in my archives, but I want the option to pick and choose. The fun never ends!!

Hi Roger,
do you actually create complete styles out of these midifiles ( ie all the intro, ending etc parts) or do you just create as many parts as required for the particular song ie 1 intro , 1 ending and as many fills and variations as may be required.

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I tend to think that maybe when we talk about creating styles, we automatically think we have to create all the parts of the style ie the 4 intro's & endings ( maj & min) the 8 fills, the 4 variations ( which can be daunting task) wheras , all one would really need to do is create an intro & ending for the song and as many fills & variations as one thinks the song requires, (with my limited playing talent I usually only need a couple of variations) hence I've got, what I've always considered, as a heap of unfinished styles ( even though I do use them), wheras I suppose I could be optimistic and think of them as completed song specific styles ( even though some of the parts may still be missing ( strange female logic, (haahaa) let's face it, it's not as if we're trying to create styles commercially, it's just to give a bit of variety to the songs.

Thanks guys, the subject is great food for thought.

best wishes
Rikki

Topic: How many Styles do you really need?

Well, I would say one fitted for each song there is,
or that that we play.......

Counting 1 and 2 and 3 and .......
GJ

.... still counting .... 5 (and that's all of the songs that I think I can play )

Hiya Rikkis
I use EMC Styleworks to obtain 2 intros; 2 endings; 2 fills; and 4 variations from a midi file (just Major) and sometimes it works, sometimes it's a mess....
Jonny
It's the twiddly bits between 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 that make all the difference as I've vaguely noticed from the several hundreds if not thousands on your marvellous web site - chuckle...
Cheers
Roger M

Hi Roger,

How do you use the 600 songs on the SD card? I mean how much is prerecorded and how much are you playing at the time. Can I assume you are playing in Pianist mode and using the style for all the other instruments?

Heather

Hi Bud,

Yes I'm sure that there have been discussions about this at other times because styles seems to be a major subject for all of us whether we want only a few good quality stles or hundreds of styles. In many way's I think it's one of the reasons we like to upgade Keyboard plus the added fun of learn all about the thing.

What I do find fasinating is that many of us seem to spend as much time "Fooling Around" with our instruments as we do actually playing them. Whether we are collecting and organizing styles and songs, sequencing a song or creating and converting styles.

As a computer programmer is it is often said that programmer should not use programs they write because we will never stop improving the program. Each time we start to use it we spend more time trying to re-do it. It seems a similar thing happens with our keyboards.

As you said, "The fun never ends!!"

Regards,
Heather

Thanks BeBop,

I find I tend to do the same thing especially if I get a bunch of new styles. As I sit and listen to each one if a song comes to mind I just start trying to play it. Often I find I'm playing a song I have not thought about in years. And in some cases probably won't play again unless I set that style aside or make a note of it.

Heather

Hiya Heather
I play all my songs live - I don't 'prerecord/sequence' at all unless I'm occasionally sending stuff to all you chaps/chappesses.
I use One finger or basic setting for the left hand as it allows me to concentrate on putting more feeling into the right hand or melody.
There's a bit of my stuff on Cees web site and loads of style files for download on Bill Norrie's web site :-
mysite.freeserve.com/willumspages/index.html
it's all KN7000 stuff...
Cheers
Roger M

It sounds like everyone has their own individual technique on what and how many styles works for them. Some may need only a few, while others like to have a full library.

Playing the music on the Technics is great fun and enjoyable. But if I had to create the composer style from scratch, that would be hard, time consuming, not my area of expertise, which would then take the fun out of playing. But this is me and of course would be different for others.

So I collect as many composer styles as I can. I mix, change instruments, and may add or erase something in the composer. It's intersting that when I finally have a song done and saved in Technics Format with the final composer version. I sometimes for the fun of it, put another rhythm pattern in it's place, interesting results ocurrs with the song. With a few tweaks here and there, I have a completly new style of the same song.

Anthony

I share many of the same views posted above. As a style nut as well, I don't have the chops nor the time to spend countless hours creating styles. So, I go with those onboard and those shared by many of you. I do tweak effects, volume, pan, and EQ extensively to get the rhythm "pocket" sought after. This may be a rediculous notion----but, owning many LP's, CD's, and even old 45's, I often come across a tune with a recorded backing that I'd die for to get in an arranger style. Hence, if we had access to the programmers, or even knew who they were, could we not submit to them snippets of tunes illustrating the styles desired? Do they may the decision on styles that appear in new boards? Will the time ever come where we (consumers) might be able to "special order" particular styles requested, rather than taking what's offered? Just some silly notions, I suppose.

Hi Heather,
I'm definately one of those that "Fools Around" ( too much , actually). There again it's only a personal hobby for me, and I find it a great deal of fun, exploring the machine etc.

I only play to entertain myself, as I get all nervous when I try to play for other people. Same problem when I try to sequence, as soon as I hit the record button, the mind goes blank & the hands get shakey ( gee, I must spend an awful lot of time in record mode haahaa).

Interesting comment on computer programmers, that may be my problem, I'm never totally happy when I create a style, so I'm forever trying to find ways of improving it, and consequently they never get finished. I'll definetly keep that in mind.

By the way, I gather you're actually into composing music,, Have you ever tried a program called "Jammer" They have demo versions on their website. (Vers4 & Vers5. They do vary in the way they work) http://www.soundtrek.com

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shcox:

What I do find fasinating is that many of us seem to spend as much time "Fooling Around" with our instruments as we do actually playing them. Whether we are collecting and organizing styles and songs, sequencing a song or creating and converting styles.

As a computer programmer is it is often said that programmer should not use programs they write because we will never stop improving the program. Each time we start to use it we spend more time trying to re-do it. It seems a similar thing happens with our keyboards.

Hi Everyone,

I'm glad I'm not alone in 'fooling around' with the styles. I regularly play for 'singalongs' and 'dancalongs' and before going on a gig, I try to set up some sort of programme hence my new collection of MEDLEYS almost the same tunes but with variations taken from the many KN archived floppies I have the result is - the same song sounding completely different because of the varying accompaniments. Like you say great fun and at one time very time consuming, but not anymore - not now I have my little SD cards. They are so quick and easy to load.

By the way, I can put together what I think is a fairly good composition one night but when playing the same composition a day or two later, it sounds complete rubbish and so! back to 'fooling around'

Anyone else have this trouble?

Aud

My 2 cents-----

1-Since I am downloading songs and styles, and playing with my SD card, I do not play as much----I have to change that. It's a different type of enjoyment, I need to put it second on my list.

2-Styles--I like the different styles----
Unless the intros or endings say something, I do not like using them. The big band plays a fantastic intro and in I come. NG--I would rather keep it all on the same level.

I have been trying to use the files in the keyboard as my first thought. I have a KN 7000, I play full chords with my left hand, and like using the pads for a lift.

One style gives me 4 variations. Add my left hand that can change the feel--on all four--on the off beat-ect--Then I add the pads to change the color again--that's a lot of change/variation for one song.

If I feel the song needs something special that the present style does not have, I will use another style.
Too much is too much--FOR ME!! I want to get into the feel of the songs, the performance.

IMHO---John C.

One thing I don't see anybody using is the song arranger. I like to change some of the instraments and the volumes in the arranger. That gives me eight variations that sound completely different and makes a completly different sounding style. Very easy to do. Even old grandpa can do it.

Grandpa Doug

Hi Grandpa Doug,
actually sound arranger is a great feature that we possibly tend to overlook. It's amazing how different a style can sound when you change the instrumentation. I do use it occasionally.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Douglas Dean:
[B]One thing I don't see anybody using is

Grandpa Doug, You are so right. I use the arranger to set up user drums and user basses---It changes the style into the next level. With the same style and variations, you can do so much.

I think I'll send in a demo of what I am doing with these variations. Not a song, just a style with all the possible variations I know. Hmmm!!
It would be nice if others did the same.

Great Day, John C.

Hi All,

I have not used the style arranger other than to press the button that gives me a second built in set of setting. And the Sound Arranger is something I've never really even looked at. So there is still plenty for me to "fool around" with in the future.

But it does sound as if we all have fun no matter how we play or play around with our instruments.

I often put a song disk in at night and let it play me to sleep.

So keep on playing!

Heather

Hi Rikki,

I've heard about Jammer but I've never really looked into it. I wrote quite a few songs back in the 70's mostly religious and they are some of the midi songs on my web site. (Although the BIAB arragments are not near as good as the original songs.) A couple of them were recorded by some local group in "Cincinnasty" (where I'm from) but they never really went any where.

I also ran a sound system for a contempory christian music group for a couple of years in the 80s.

I too get a little skiddish when I play in front of people especially if I'm playing solo. So I play mostly for myself.

I have an extensive record collection of about 1000 albums, maybe 500 45s and 300 CDs and I like just about all kinds of music.

The Record collection is because my brother worked for Warner,Electra & Atlantic for 32 years and for RCA, Captial and Motown in the 60s.

The CDs are because my partner and I were mobile DJs durining the early 90s before radio music got all screwed up.

My first computer was a TRS-80 and I remember the first time someone came from MIT to show us how they had actually sampled music on to a set of 8 inch disks.

The song was 4 minutes long and it took a total of 28 disks to hold the entire song. There were 2 disk drives and as the second disk began to play the operator would hurry up and change the first disk and so on.

How things have changed!

Ok, was that more information than you needed. LOL

Have a Great Day,
Heather