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#452974 - 06/02/18 03:34 AM
Comping My Own Vocals
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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What is the best source of knowledge on this subject? I know there are Youtube vids and books, but many of you are already skilled at this, and I don't want to through a lot of fluff getting to it. Back in my church days, I would sing and play the organ for choir practice, but it was not comping, but duplicating the melody. That is no problem for me, but I don't think it is the accepted way, is it?
Now I can't be as good at it as many of you, but it never is too late to start. BTW, the only thing I do now is to sing while chording left hand, take an instrument lead, and come back in.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#452977 - 06/02/18 05:51 AM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Thanks Jonathan, but I am speaking live vocal performance over a style accomp.. I want more involvement than a Karaoke rendition. I envision singing melody with left hand piano and right hand stabs, arps, or something. I would then play second verse as instrumental as usual, then come back in with my vocal at the bridge. This is only one example, depending on the song.
I am only trying to get used to playing and singing at the same time, and since I would start with very familiar songs, I guess the right hand use while singing is the first question.
Thanks for your response, Jonathon, as you are well versed in this, to be sure.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#452980 - 06/02/18 06:44 AM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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I envision singing melody with left hand piano and right hand stabs, arps, or something. Hi Bernie, that's what I thought you meant. I know lots of trained pianists (keyboardist) who have that problem. I think the reason is that, unless you're studying jazz or are essentially self-taught, it's just a part of formal music instruction that's NOT TAUGHT. For a lot of musicians, it just comes naturally; they sing a phrase and just 'hear' a 'comp' phrase that would compliment or accent it. Hard, but not impossible, to learn at a late stage in your musical career. I could only suggest two things: 1. Get a musician that is skilled at this to show you a few 'tricks'. 2. Find some commercial arrangements that incorporate what you envision, and listen, study, and practice what they're doing. It'll take some time but once you discover the technique, practice, practice, practice until is feels 'natural' and almost unconscious. chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#452981 - 06/02/18 06:56 AM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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That helps, Chas, thanks. Be it good or bad, I am self taught, so not regimated and can use my own intuition, as you suggested. My timing is spot on, so I can concentrate on riffs or fill ins. By what you say, this is not an exact science anyway.
Thanks Bernie
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#452988 - 06/02/18 07:40 AM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Tony: Now you're talkin.
Gary: I am both enthralled and horrified while listening to Don. It almost stopped my ambitions cold, at the thought of trying to play like that(just kidding-not).
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#452994 - 06/02/18 09:00 AM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
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I'm trying to remember how I learned to do what I do in this instance. I know I always have my right hand "over" the same chords that my left hand is playing. Generally I sing a line and then play some sort of "answer" fill. Only in the past few years have a learned to actually play more than a chord while I'm actually singing. Start by just playing the notes in the chord one at a time, in time of course. Experiment to see what other notes out of the chord sound good when you play them. You will often find that the flatted third of the chord sounds good, perhaps sliding from it to the third. Then experiment with the sixth note of the chord. It gets easier the more you do it. Also, listen to a recording of the song you are playing, hear what the "signature" riffs are and learn to play them. The intros are especially important. I almost never use a factory intro; instead I play a line from the melody of the song, or actually try to play something close to the original intro. Now if I had to actually play much with the left hand, I would turn into a blubbering idiot. Hope this helps a little. P.S. I just saw Chas post and he is exactly right, although as I mentioned, I'm working on actual comping more. I don't have a problem coming behind someone else, but it's a lot harder to do it while you are singing.
Edited by DonM (06/02/18 09:02 AM)
_________________________
DonM
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#453004 - 06/02/18 11:57 AM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Thank you all for your help. "Filling in the holes" cuts right to the heart of it. Thanks, Don, for the specifics, and I notice you always fill yours real good. One question is: To what extent is it permissible to duplicate the melody line? The easiest thing for me to do is sing in the same time as I would play, jumping the beat or lagging like Sinatra, to give it a live feel. I most always use full left hand sound for movement to fill in with like a ninth/-9/major. I just don't want to do it if it is going to sound amateurish.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#453007 - 06/02/18 12:32 PM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Duly noted sir, and thank you
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#453010 - 06/02/18 01:24 PM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Thanks Tony. That was my question and now my answer.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#453012 - 06/02/18 03:03 PM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: tony mads usa]
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Senior Member
Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
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Let me tell you about Bernie’s best two parts. 1-He is humble, and he is not timid about asking for help. . 2-He really loves music.
“Filling in the holes” Yes and a bit more. In Latin music they are very careful to fill in the holes with rhythmic vocals. In fact, I would have to say their rhythm is the most important. It is difficult to sit till when it is played.
Comping is not normally taught because it’s a come naturally, most feel it, they do not think about. 1-Kansas City here I come -------------- Here is where the singer needs help. You come in lightly, then grow, and then play your comping with a flavor that helps them get into their next part. Singers favor compers who help lead them to the next part AND, do not comp while they are singing; it can interfere with their phrasing. Some musicians voice their chords with the melody on top. Singers hate that, they know which note THEY WANT to sing, and when they want to sing it. No leading lines or comping while someone is singing unless it is part of what made the song popular. t
Bernie, when asked what to use to comp I was told, “What would like to hear”. It is all about listening; not copying but listening and trying. All fill ins and comping are different for each style of music.
John C.
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#453026 - 06/03/18 01:52 AM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Very good, John, thanks for the advice.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#453040 - 06/03/18 06:52 AM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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I agree, Kansas City and The Wanderer are my first two as they fit a reply type response with a sax interlude. I appreciate everyone's help.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#453064 - 06/03/18 12:42 PM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Donny and Jerryghr just opened my mind and ears. Both wonderful examples which I shall keep and refer to. Many have offered excellent advice, but to hear what you all are talking about opens a whole new world. In Donny's rendition, I can see playing off the blues scale. I often ad lib the melody staying in the structure of the scale, this isn't any different, just applied in another way.
It's funny how I have heard comping for 50 years but wasn't listening, because I wasn't trying to do it.
I once was blind and now I see(sort of).
Thanks all
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#453086 - 06/04/18 12:39 PM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Bernie9]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
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Not sure if this is the right thread for this, or not. (please tell me, and I'll move it) Lots has been said about individual playing styles, keyboard preferences, chord shapes, and much more. Here is my take on how I do what I do, and why. It's important to state that I'm a singer first, and a keyboard/guitar player second ... tied very closely with my role as entertainer/emcee. With THAT said, let's begin.
Whether I'm sitting at a grand piano, or an arranger keyboard, my priorities are the same: 1) vocals 2)bass 3)rhythm *)everything else (I call this fluff, or color)
My 2 hands generally split the duties of bass and chords, even on an acoustic piano. When playing full chordal accompaniment on a piano, I often rely on a heavy LH octave, or I-V-I to add depth to the chord structure. When playing an arranger, I go between triggering patterns, or playing live manual bass all night. Either way - I ALWAYS play the full chords with my RH, even if the arranger is set to automatic. This personalizes my styles so each one is always song specific. Playing manual bass is my preferred method with standards, and swing tunes, because it enables me to "kick" the rhythm section for emphasis. I can accent phrases, and lines with both hands acting together .... something that's often difficult, while relying on pre programmed styles. I have always believed that bass is the most important element to a rhythm section. Far more important than drums. It sets the key, fills out the fundamental, moves the air, so your gut can feel it, and provides the oooomph to make people (not me) dance. My user styles have been thinned out to remove the piano, and guitar sounds when they are playing most of the chords in a style. This frees up polyphony, and un-clutteres the accompaniment. Remember - I'm spotlighting the melody always. (in my case, my voice)
A typical, or signature sound for me is a simple trio style with a drum pattern, LH bass, RH Rhodes (sometimes layered), and voice on top with added harmonies to suit the style or genre I'm aiming for. Comping behind my vocals is easy in this config, because I'm usually surrounding the melody with the chords, so I can trigger my "freshman-esq" harmonies at will. Some songs get simple 3rd up harmony, some benefit form more complex structure, like Four Seasons, MIlls Bros etc.
For me, I'm happiest when the vocals shine, the bass is solid, the Rhodes is ringing like a bell (sorry Johnny B), and the rest of the band is sitting tightly in the pocket of the groove I'm laying down. This makes my sound less automated, less manufacturer specific, and frankly .... more interesting. (I hope)
The Korg PA series really makes life simple with the button controls on top. The ability to turn on slash bass chords, manual bass, chord sequencing, and turn acc parts on/off in a flash is vital to a fresh sound, for me. Happy to answer any questions about my approach, but I mainly just wanted to share a few thoughts with the gang. Enjoy, all.
_________________________
No longer monitoring this forum. Please visit www.daveboydmusic.com for contact info
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#453128 - 06/05/18 11:36 AM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: montunoman]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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#453135 - 06/05/18 12:30 PM
Re: Comping My Own Vocals
[Re: Uncle Dave]
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3227
Loc: Dallas, Texas
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Not sure if this is the right thread for this, or not. (please tell me, and I'll move it) Lots has been said about individual playing styles, keyboard preferences, chord shapes, and much more. Here is my take on how I do what I do, and why. It's important to state that I'm a singer first, and a keyboard/guitar player second ... tied very closely with my role as entertainer/emcee. With THAT said, let's begin.
Whether I'm sitting at a grand piano, or an arranger keyboard, my priorities are the same: 1) vocals 2)bass 3)rhythm *)everything else (I call this fluff, or color)
My 2 hands generally split the duties of bass and chords, even on an acoustic piano. When playing full chordal accompaniment on a piano, I often rely on a heavy LH octave, or I-V-I to add depth to the chord structure. When playing an arranger, I go between triggering patterns, or playing live manual bass all night. Either way - I ALWAYS play the full chords with my RH, even if the arranger is set to automatic. This personalizes my styles so each one is always song specific. Playing manual bass is my preferred method with standards, and swing tunes, because it enables me to "kick" the rhythm section for emphasis. I can accent phrases, and lines with both hands acting together .... something that's often difficult, while relying on pre programmed styles. I have always believed that bass is the most important element to a rhythm section. Far more important than drums. It sets the key, fills out the fundamental, moves the air, so your gut can feel it, and provides the oooomph to make people (not me) dance. My user styles have been thinned out to remove the piano, and guitar sounds when they are playing most of the chords in a style. This frees up polyphony, and un-clutteres the accompaniment. Remember - I'm spotlighting the melody always. (in my case, my voice)
A typical, or signature sound for me is a simple trio style with a drum pattern, LH bass, RH Rhodes (sometimes layered), and voice on top with added harmonies to suit the style or genre I'm aiming for. Comping behind my vocals is easy in this config, because I'm usually surrounding the melody with the chords, so I can trigger my "freshman-esq" harmonies at will. Some songs get simple 3rd up harmony, some benefit form more complex structure, like Four Seasons, MIlls Bros etc.
For me, I'm happiest when the vocals shine, the bass is solid, the Rhodes is ringing like a bell (sorry Johnny B), and the rest of the band is sitting tightly in the pocket of the groove I'm laying down. This makes my sound less automated, less manufacturer specific, and frankly .... more interesting. (I hope)
The Korg PA series really makes life simple with the button controls on top. The ability to turn on slash bass chords, manual bass, chord sequencing, and turn acc parts on/off in a flash is vital to a fresh sound, for me. Happy to answer any questions about my approach, but I mainly just wanted to share a few thoughts with the gang. Enjoy, all. Interesting approach UD. I’d like to get my LH bass lines together to be able to do what you do. Do use any auto accompaniment at all ( besides drums) when doing LH bass?
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