Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Playing left hand bass compared to bass pedals.
I started out with the accordion. A perfect instrument to learn music, be it theory or technique (circle of fifths etc).
I learned to play bass lines with bass buttons.
When I studied voicing and chord structure on the piano, I needed to learn another way to play bass on keys , within the chording.
Moving on to organ, pedals came into play, as did left hand bass. I developed left hand bass easily because I had a strong background in music theory (again accordion study).
I found the pedals very limited to what I wanted to acheive. Most organ players will play root and fifth, but very hard to play walking bass lines in all keys on pedals.. So we usually play in our favorite keys for ease of pedal play. Key of C and F.
Better organ players will play in all keys, but primarily play root and fifths, filling in the missing bass notes needed with the play of left hand on lower key manual.
Myself, I find it natural to play left hand bass. My brain already knows what chord or melody counter line my right hand is playing, and I play left hand bass without needing to think about what I am doing.
I cannot translate this concept to bass pedals at all..
Even though I can play Left Hand Bass I rarely do.. more of a Jazz tune thing.. I rather go with auto-base if I am using an arranger KB... gives me more freedom to navigate other features and sing.
Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7305
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
The last time I saw Jimmy Smith play live, in the middle of his upscale blues based set, he played a really beautiful version of "Spring Can Really Hang You Up", with pedal bass and full, inverted chords. It was at the WNOP Jazz Festival just outside Cincinnati in thzehmid-80's.
The fascinating thing about left-handed walking bass is the complete co-ordination of both hands. When done correctly,the notes from the left hand intertwine perfectly with the chords/notes from the right.
Top players, like Joey will briefly switch left hand for left foot if there is a place in the piece requiring alternate lead lines or complex inversions (or a combination thereof).
Ideally, it's not an "either/or situation.
Either way, when you're "in the pocket", there's nothing like it. For anything but walking jazz organ tunes, there sounds like something's missing if just left hand is used.
#473008 - 07/17/1912:32 PMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: Fran Carango]
DonM
Senior Member
Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 16735
Loc: Benton, LA, USA
One of the primary reasons I initially switched to arrangers is so I didn't have to play pedal bass any longer. The automatic bass is way better than my feet, or for that matter my left hand (while playing right hand as well). I need my left hand free for joystick and buttons!
One of the primary reasons I initially switched to arrangers is so I didn't have to play pedal bass any longer. The automatic bass is way better than my feet, or for that matter my left hand (while playing right hand as well). I need my left hand free for joystick and buttons!
Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 4912
Loc: West Palm Beach, FL 33417
A good organ player is not limited using bass pedals. At an organ concert an organist played the Flight of the Bumble Bee with the bass pedals. I believe that bass pedals, left hand bass, and using styles offer something different, and each loses something.
So there in my music room is my Wersi Delta 500 organ bought. It came with two tall Wersi speakers, and bass pedals. The first thing I noticed is that I did not sound anything like the organ players I heard at the organ concerts. The second thing was the terrible cramps I was getting in my left leg. After two months I sold the organ to a church.
I added bass pedals to m Kn7000; my leg cramps came back. I like adding that story, it brings back some memories.
I believe that Fran, with his accordion experience, plays a great left-hand bass, and it fits his needs. For me, the bass in a style is acceptable. When it becomes boring, I add a bass pad, and it does not bring any leg cramps. (smile)
Registered: 04/28/06
Posts: 834
Loc: North Texas, USA
I don't sing, so I usually play the melody with my right hand and accompaniment (including arranger bass) with my left.
I play a lot of pop singer-songwriter stuff which is loaded with descending bass lines, counter-melodies, etc. I'm not an expert on music theory, but to make things easier I used to always substitute (simplify) the "hard" chords, so the end result looked like a Hal Leonard E-Z Play Today type of score.
Once I understood slash chords and heard the difference they make, I made an effort to learn and play the songs that way. BUT... It's SO annoying to have to play the "normal" chords in root position. It translates into a lot of hand movement, and for me, mistakes or late chords on fast runs.
[Yes I know that Yamaha and Korg both have a chord recognition mode where 3 notes any inversion = root bass, 2 notes = lower one is the bass of an "on bass" chord. BUT... 1 note = unison?? (should be major IMO.) Depending on how many basic major chords are in the song, the cure is worse than the disease! What were they thinking!?]
Anyhow I bought myself a one-octave set of bass pedals thinking that maybe it would be easier to play any inversion of the chord with my left hand, and the altered bass note (when needed) with my left foot. Never even plugged them in!
What I did that helps a little, is configure a MIDI solutions footswitch controller. With some tricky SysEx, I was able to program a MOMENTARY on-bass function. Press the pedal, play a chord = on bass. Release the pedal and any inversion gives the root bass. This function should have been momentary from the factory, but every brand requires one press to turn Bass Inversion on, and another to turn it off. This toggle behavior makes it difficult to use during a song. The momentary functionality is great when there are just one or two slash chords in a song. If there are a lot of slash chords in the score, it makes me want to cry! And maybe try the bass pedals again.
Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Originally Posted By bruno123
A good organ player is not limited using bass pedals. At an organ concert an organist played the Flight of the Bumble Bee with the bass pedals. I believe that bass pedals, left hand bass, and using styles offer something different, and each loses something.
So there in my music room is my Wersi Delta 500 organ bought. It came with two tall Wersi speakers, and bass pedals. The first thing I noticed is that I did not sound anything like the organ players I heard at the organ concerts. The second thing was the terrible cramps I was getting in my left leg. After two months I sold the organ to a church.
I added bass pedals to m Kn7000; my leg cramps came back. I like adding that story, it brings back some memories.
I believe that Fran, with his accordion experience, plays a great left-hand bass, and it fits his needs. For me, the bass in a style is acceptable. When it becomes boring, I add a bass pad, and it does not bring any leg cramps. (smile)
#473031 - 07/17/1903:21 PMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: Fran Carango]
Bernie9
Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
This shows me that, allowing for a certain amount innate ability, the top players have paid their dues in studying the rudiments of theory and performance. I don't envy Fran and others, but salute them for countless hours building their foundation, and Fran knows all about foundations.
#473032 - 07/17/1903:38 PMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: Fran Carango]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Hmmm, very interesting although it doesn't quite match up with my own personal experience. I have met or known or heard live almost every big-name jazz organist post Wild Bill Davis, with the exception of Tony Monaco (whom I'd really like to meet). First I'm curious about the sudden interest in pedal/LH Bass since, during the 15+ years I've been on this board, with the exception of myself, I don't recall anyone posting a performance utilizing pedal bass or LH bass. First off, to the best of my knowledge, only contemporary jazz organist use this technique (LH bass) which was pretty much introduced by Jimmy Smith and quickly adopted by nearly all jazz organist that followed him. Most used (and still use) the old technique of tapping a bass pedal (usually 'A') to add some 'attack' to the bass tone. A few 'duped' (duplicated) what they were playing on the left hand with the pedals. Even the true MASTERS like Joey D play LH bass on medium to up-tempo tunes although Joey is very capable on the pedals and frequently uses the technique described by Capt Russ above when he needed to use his left hand for another purpose (changing registrations, playing big, dynamic two-fisted chords, etc....or sometimes just wiping his brow). Also, no need to play LH bass if you're only (or primarily) just playin "root and fifth". Also, I think I may have every Jimmy Smith recording in existance; Jimmy played a lot of tunes in Bb and Eb as well.
Although Jimmy Smith may have pioneered the technique (LH Bass), even his most ardent fans would not say that he was the best at it. Hard to say who was/is, but my personal favorites (we're talking LH bass here) would be Tony Monaco (Joey's the better organist but can't match Tony for just flat-out GROOVE). Other 'honorable mentions' would be Brother Jack McDuff and Richard 'Groove' Holmes (both left-handers, BTW, and Jack is a former bass player). Between arthritis and quick fatigue, I can only play pedals on slow tunes and some latin tunes where "root and fifth" may be acceptable. I always have them plugged in though so I can tap them for a bar or two if I need to do something (with a good drum backing, live or otherwise, nobody notices). When it comes to pedals, there are plenty of competent pedal players for 'pop' music but in hard-core jazz there is only one; Barbara Dennerlein. After her, no one wants to even try .
Anyhow, I'm sure Bernie and Bill Lewis and Russ are all competent pedal and/or LH Bass players, all coming from an organ background (and I'm sure there are others) and yes, I know this is an 'Arranger Board', but since Fran brought it up, I'd love, I mean LOVE, to hear some members post some tunes (THEIR OWN) featuring pedals and/or LH bass.
chas
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Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Originally Posted By cgiles
Hmmm, very interesting although it doesn't quite match up with my own personal experience. I have met or known or heard live almost every big-name jazz organist post Wild Bill Davis, with the exception of Tony Monaco (whom I'd really like to meet). First I'm curious about the sudden interest in pedal/LH Bass since, during the 15+ years I've been on this board, with the exception of myself, I don't recall anyone posting a performance utilizing pedal bass or LH bass. First off, to the best of my knowledge, only contemporary jazz organist use this technique (LH bass) which was pretty much introduced by Jimmy Smith and quickly adopted by nearly all jazz organist that followed him. Most used (and still use) the old technique of tapping a bass pedal (usually 'A') to add some 'attack' to the bass tone. A few 'duped' (duplicated) what they were playing on the left hand with the pedals. Even the true MASTERS like Joey D play LH bass on medium to up-tempo tunes although Joey is very capable on the pedals and frequently uses the technique described by Capt Russ above when he needed to use his left hand for another purpose (changing registrations, playing big, dynamic two-fisted chords, etc....or sometimes just wiping his brow). Also, no need to play LH bass if you're only (or primarily) just playin "root and fifth". Also, I think I may have every Jimmy Smith recording in existance; Jimmy played a lot of tunes in Bb and Eb as well.
Although Jimmy Smith may have pioneered the technique (LH Bass), even his most ardent fans would not say that he was the best at it. Hard to say who was/is, but my personal favorites (we're talking LH bass here) would be Tony Monaco (Joey's the better organist but can't match Tony for just flat-out GROOVE). Other 'honorable mentions' would be Brother Jack McDuff and Richard 'Groove' Holmes (both left-handers, BTW, and Jack is a former bass player). Between arthritis and quick fatigue, I can only play pedals on slow tunes and some latin tunes where "root and fifth" may be acceptable. I always have them plugged in though so I can tap them for a bar or two if I need to do something (with a good drum backing, live or otherwise, nobody notices). When it comes to pedals, there are plenty of competent pedal players for 'pop' music but in hard-core jazz there is only one; Barbara Dennerlein. After her, no one wants to even try .
Anyhow, I'm sure Bernie and Bill Lewis and Russ are all competent pedal and/or LH Bass players, all coming from an organ background (and I'm sure there are others) and yes, I know this is an 'Arranger Board', but since Fran brought it up, I'd love, I mean LOVE, to hear some members post some tunes (THEIR OWN) featuring pedals and/or LH bass.
#473038 - 07/17/1906:37 PMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: Fran Carango]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Thanks Fran, for leading the way. Naturally you had to pick one of my favorite tunes (Laura). Interesting choice to do it mid-tempo. Once something gets into my head as say, a ballad, I have a hard time re-focusing and playing around with different tempos (although the tempo you chose is quite common for these types of ballads (no reason they have to be funeral dirges ). Ok, now that you've broken the ice (and very nicely I may say), let's get some of these other rusty, dusty, old ex organ players to post something (using pedals or LH bass or any combination thereof). Also, if you post, please specify the sound source (instrument and patch name).
chas
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#473044 - 07/18/1901:55 AMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: Fran Carango]
abacus
Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5392
Loc: English Riviera, UK
The biggest mistake most users make is treating the bass pedals as something separate, they are not, they are merely an extension of the keyboard that is playable with your feet, (Look down and you will find the notes on the pedals are exactly the same as the keyboards) which means effectively you have more hands available for more flexibility. Just like lead players and drummers bass players can also play a solo which (Within reason) can be emulated by playing pedals. (A style is of no use as it is pre-set and always plays the same notes and timing, thus quickly becomes boring; also as the automatics don’t know what chord you are going to play next, it causes complete havoc with the bass line) Another mistake players new to pedals make is in the seating position, if you look at professional pedal players they do not lift their leg at all, but merely swing it and use their ankle to pivot the foot to play the notes. (This is why a lot of users new to pedals get a lot of pain when playing) It has been mentioned that with an arranger you have to adapt your left hand playing style to get it to play the right bass notes, which again is unnatural and reduces the fluidity of left hand play. (If you’re happy to just trigger chords and let the style do all the work (More of a karaoke style play) this is not an issue, but you just sound the same as everyone else with nothing that identifies you as a player) Most organ players learnt to play pedals as there were no automatics to do it for them, however as these types of easy play features were added to organs there was less need to learn to play, (Most even allowed you to play with one finger) which meant why do you need pedals (Or a second manual) when the easy play features do it for you, this was quickly identified by the Japanese and the arranger keyboard came into its own, (As well as being smaller and cheaper) unfortunately while you could identify the organ player by his style, with an arranger all you hear is the arranger (The styles being the biggest give away) so virtually everybody sounds the same. Here is a simple bass line (From 1977) that was used to show perspective organ owners what could be achieved with a little effort being put in, (No fancy auto accompaniments were available in those days) https://app.box.com/s/2a3p3xy1mkfcgvd1obsrxt9yncl61vy4 NOTE: Most computer speakers don’t go low enough to show the bass line so make sure you listen on a decent set.
Bill
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#473057 - 07/18/1909:11 AMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: Fran Carango]
girljam
Member
Registered: 07/09/05
Posts: 246
Loc: FL
Some excellent points made, especially as this pertains to arranger keyboards . . . I rarely will do a walking left hand bass unless the particular jazz song calls out for it . . . There are some styles that do provide a really nice bass line with the arranger, and then my left hand can focus on many other things! Now, on a piano, that’s a different story . . . But again, depends on the song and the style for me. I also played accordion for a few years, loved it!!!
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#473062 - 07/18/1909:37 AMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: Dnj]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By Dnj
Originally Posted By cgiles
Probably only if they're organist.
chas
I agree and that's hardly any unless I am wrong I haven't seen them. Times change and so do KB playing techniques as NEW technology is adapted.
But I think you're missing the point here. Playing bass pedals is not something replaced by technology and left in the dustbin of history; it's a legitimate part of a playing technique usually reserved for the playing of conventional/traditional ORGANS. If real ORGANS are still around 100 years from now (and they probably will be as long as there are large, wealthy, mostly Catholic, cathedrals), so will PEDALS!!! Although technology has introduced standalone or MIDI pedals that can be played with (or without) ANY instrument, keyboard or otherwise, that doesn't change the basic concept that bass pedals are a part of an instrument known as an ORGAN and that any competent or classically trained organist would not only be able to play them but would EXPECT them to be present on his instrument. So Donny, back to your original question, 'who's interested in bass pedals?'; primarily organists and a few others who'd like a little extra flexibility in their playing. One other thing; you may have noticed (as an old B3 player) that the audience seems intrigued with watching pedal footwork, which of course adds to the 'visuals' in your performance.
chas
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Registered: 12/01/99
Posts: 12800
Loc: Penn Yan, NY
Before going solo, Billy Joel had a metal duo with just him, on Organ and a drummer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7s8PHnCTGI Wah wah pedals, screaming overdrive, manual bass ... not my taste, but worth a listen to see what 4 hands, and 4 feet can do live.
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Before going solo, Billy Joel had a metal duo with just him, on Organ and a drummer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7s8PHnCTGI Wah wah pedals, screaming overdrive, manual bass ... not my taste, but worth a listen to see what 4 hands, and 4 feet can do live.
Yea but 40 years ago was very different musically then today....
#473081 - 07/18/1911:21 AMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: cgiles]
ekurburski
Member
Registered: 03/22/17
Posts: 449
Loc: Mountain Home, AR
I played organ bass pedals for years when working with an organ. The secret to the leg pain is setting in the right position. Set so your foot falls naturally straight down over the g pedal. Then just rotate the leg side to side.
As for now I agree with DonM. I play with the auto bass so I can do other things with my hands.
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Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 7305
Loc: Lexington, Ky, USA
For years, I played double neck guitars and bass pedals. On one long standing gig, I played the bass neck along with a "sing-along-" entertainer type...Preston Weber, probably the highest paid entertainer who worked in Lexington. When it came time for a solo, I switched to pedals and played the guitar neck.
For 5 years, I played an Auto Orchestra, where you held the proper bass note and triggered 7ths, minors, etc. with the heel and toe of your right, volume pedal foot.
I did a single with a double neck 6 and 12. I had the 12 string neck into a 147RV. I had a drum machine and a set of pedals.
When my long-time organ player was having lots of physical issues, I played a Rhodes finger bass over an early Honer Clavinova.
#473093 - 07/18/1904:43 PMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: captain Russ]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By captain Russ
For years, I played double neck guitars and bass pedals. On one long standing gig, I played the bass neck along with a "sing-along-" entertainer type...Preston Weber, probably the highest paid entertainer who worked in Lexington. When it came time for a solo, I switched to pedals and played the guitar neck.
For 5 years, I played an Auto Orchestra, where you held the proper bass note and triggered 7ths, minors, etc. with the heel and toe of your right, volume pedal foot.
I did a single with a double neck 6 and 12. I had the 12 string neck into a 147RV. I had a drum machine and a set of pedals.
When my long-time organ player was having lots of physical issues, I played a Rhodes finger bass over an early Honer Clavinova.
Ah, the things you do to get girls!
Russ
...and the disappointment when they leave with the drummer . I think girls like drummers because it guarantees that they will be the smartest one in the relationship .
chas
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#473107 - 07/18/1911:11 PMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: Fran Carango]
Mark79100
Senior Member
Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 1661
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By Fran Carango
Playing left hand bass compared to bass pedals. I started out with the accordion. A perfect instrument to learn music, be it theory or technique (circle of fifths etc)........I learned to play bass lines with bass buttons. When I studied voicing and chord structure on the piano, I needed to learn another way to play bass on keys , within the chording......I developed left hand bass easily because I had a strong background in music theory (again accordion study).
What do you guys and gals think about this?
Fran is right on the money with his remarks. I was one of the lucky ones who learned to play music on an accordion and, as a result, learned how to compose bass lines, learned chord structuring, the cycle of fifths and basic theory and harmony etc. I play both now...piano AND accordion, but the accordion training is what I use in in piano performance and not the other way around.
#473113 - 07/19/1901:32 AMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: Fran Carango]
montunoman
Senior Member
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3230
Loc: Dallas, Texas
I try to play LH bass on the keyboard everyday but still don’t do so live yet.... Auto accompaniment bass is good for some styles of music but it has serious limitations..... Auto accompaniment can anticipate what the next chord will be. A good bass player, especially in jazz walking bass or salsa uses a leading tone on the last beat of the measure for a smooth transition to the next chord change.
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#473124 - 07/19/1905:41 AMRe: Left hand bass vs bass pedals
[Re: cgiles]
IMMusic_Curt
Member
Registered: 06/17/18
Posts: 314
Loc: New Symrna Beach, Fl.
Originally Posted By cgiles
Anyhow, I'm sure Bernie and Bill Lewis and Russ are all competent pedal and/or LH Bass players, all coming from an organ background (and I'm sure there are others) and yes, I know this is an 'Arranger Board', but since Fran brought it up, I'd love, I mean LOVE, to hear some members post some tunes (THEIR OWN) featuring pedals and/or LH bass.
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