We lost some members. That's a shame. The concept of freedom of expression is STILL an important part of being human.

Differences of opinion, when shared make the resulting compromises BETTER than the individual beliefs.

Dialogue shows concern and commitment to the greater good.

It is my GREAT privilege to continue to participate.

Be well, all.
(I'm trying)

R.

👍

Well said Russ. If people can't handle that not everyone shares their own opinions they should simply stay away. I am good with them staying away.

Funny thing to me is, the freedom, and opportunity to express one's self is a treasured thing all around the world.

Reasoned dialogue is the mechanism of a working democracy. Understanding another opinion and factoring that into what you already think is the mechanism for mental growth.

I value the interaction from some who have left. I welcome further contact.

Russ

Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and as long as they own it and express it with respect to others ( or in a respectful way) that should be fine. Other people have a right to theirs and the same rights and privileges goes with that,I believe. Both listening to others as well, is what I mean too.

Unfortunately, the situation in the world today, with where people are at, being restricted, where they have never been before, or lost their jobs, family and the ongoing doubt of who is actually running the country ( whatever country you are in). People have developed thin skins and short fuses, plus they are stressed and showing symptoms of anxiety.

Plus the speed at which the vaccine is being developed to combat this wretched virus, is again putting doubt into the average Joe Blow, as to the safety of and long term effects/ side effects.

I just hope that the general sense of good humour that has been enjoyed on this forum and the friendships across the Net will remain,, and not suffer this hopefully brief year.

Hope everyone is keeping safe and not letting the negatives get in to your brain.



Allan

Good attitude, Allen.

R.

I remember when and why "The Bar" was created. It was designed to separate personal opinions and beliefs about politics, religion, sports, any current event, or just about anything unrelated to "Keyboard" Forum discussions.

The Bar was, and still is, a great idea. And yes, I agree, the pandemic has many on edge, and it may be a factor in how people relate. It's possible, Covid 19 brought out true feelings in some people, and others were offended by those feelings.

We can only hope that a vaccine for the virus will be discovered soon, to help heal, and if not too late, get back to "normal".

The good thing about being a one man band ( keyboard player) you don't have to social distance yourself from the rest of the band! They are already in quarantine in the keyboard ( I have little a bunch of little guys in there playing for me) and playing better than me too lol.


Allan

Funny stuff Allan

+10 to all of the above.

Ha, reasonable is the important word. When one calls another an idiot for expressing his or her opinion I don't think that is reasonable. Now, I may think that some of the arguments presented are idiotic I really need to be careful about how I say it, even in the bar.

I believe there are three types of truth; 1. personal, 2. political, and 3, objective. Most of the facts presented here are of the first two types. Either personal beliefs or politically correct positions. Very few are real truths and that's ok. I would remind you however, that prior to 1492 it was an absolute truth that the world was flat.

I believe (there's that damn word again) that we all need to be a little more careful in the way we put others political or religious beliefs down.

Too true but I think there may now be a 4th truth for some - Social truth. It is being bent into polictical but many think it is personal but it is not as many are too afraid to speak their personal beliefs/ ideas/ truths as they get put down. It is just so confusing so people loose their backbone sometimes to keep the peace.

But there is a place for everything and if you apply a slice of empathy with what you want to say you can ( most of the time) speak your mind.

On political correctness, I am afraid the pendulum has swung too far to one side and we have lost our funny bone somewhere.

Unfortunately even watching Monty Python or Black Adder has become foul of the Political Correctness mob.


Allan

Well thought out observations...BOTH of you.

Thanks so much!

R.

Social truth! Now thats a new one. I dropped out of a Sociology class due to the fact that its proponents feel that societies rights trump personal rights. This is a big difference in the arguments.

Absolutely! But, todays society is leaning more and more to that direction without logical thought. Many use it to prop up their "beliefs" instead of looking to the facts and history. They would rather wipe and rewrite history to suit their current narrative. Just look what is happening in universities these days and the freedom of thought has been pushed to the socialist side.

I am never against freedom of thought as long as they think logically and apply it to themselves before they inflick it onto and against others.

There are many advantages to the socialist agenda, except there is no country where it has ever really worked to help the average person. It usually gets twisted into communism or despotism/ dictatorship; the rich get it all and the poor get the dregs. And it all starts with people thinking "you should" instead of "what works and helps everyone".

This all leads to the new social truth which is not real truth but an agenda that steers a group/ or country in a certain direction in the long run. But it is never really proven to be THE TRUTH.

Hope the pendulum drifts back to the centre soon, before there is civil war and not just in one country either.


Allan

Me, Too, Allen. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

R.

excellent points Allen. Except maybe the only answer is cival war. what then?

Then I will keep my guns loaded and close I guess.

The way things have been going, that might not be a bad idea. Where I live I'm afraid there may be a major eruption if Biden wins. Where you live there may be a major eruption if Trump wins. Its possible that no one will win in the end.

It depends on the "socialist agenda" If Universal Healthcare is included, then almost all civilized countries will disagree in that it does work for the average person, and is not a twisted plot to enter communism or dictatorship. In fact it's a world wide majority opinion that Healthcare is a human right.

It's rather unfair to give a general assumption that socialism leads to Communism. Therefore, maybe explain a little better what you mean by a social agenda not working. There are very few Communist Nations, and many "Socialist" Nations, happy that the government is providing Domestic Tranquility

Heck the USA can be considered a Socialist Nation. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Police, Fire Departments, Transportation, etc., all working for the better, as it "should".

Peace and Vote on, or before, Tuesday

The term "socialism" is so fraught with negatives. The concept of actions for the common good isn't all that bad.

Agreement on definitions is everything.

Astute observation, Ian.


Russ

But who will pay for it if you remove the ability to strive to better yourself in a capitalist society? You will have no one to pay the taxes to pay for the "free health " etc for all the people. You and I will live in the same small single bedroom home with partner and kids plus parents ( since they can't look after themselves).

It sounds great but it's the application that has proven elusive, even by what I can see the Democratic states today.


Allan

Who will pay for it is the standard healthcare statement by those who never ask who is going to pay for endless wars, and tax cuts for billionaires.

Somehow every other civilized country in the world finds a way to offer healthcare for all. And no, it's not free, and yes taxes will be higher, but unlike high insurance rates, you won't be denied care, and you won't have to make a decision to pay the rent, or pay for surgery.
I personally would be happy to pay my share to those in need.


And there is no evidence that having universal healthcare for all will produce a lazy, and non productive citizenship. That's still another talking point by Politicians who want to keep their healthcare insurance companies alive and well with their political contributions (bribes). In fact today, without healthcare for all, families are currently living together, because they can't afford everyday living, and for many, that includes health care costs that has to be paid.

Finally, maybe, just maybe employers that currently offer healthcare, will pass on the savings of not having to pay that "benefit" and increase wages for their employees.

Socialized medicine has already proven to work in the USA, with Medicare, Medicaid, VA care, and Politician Care. It's time to let everyone who lives in this, the richest country in the world, have that basic human right too.

Anyway, it's a good debate

Real socialism as present in the Soviet Union, East Germany etc. until 1990 was characterized by the total absense of markets. The government planned and ran the economy, tried to figure out needs, shortages, fixed prices (if prices were used at all), gave out production targets to state-run factories, and everything failed as there were no incentives to produce efficiently, no market prices that gave incentives and regulated the balance of supply and demand.
I wonder what country still has a system like that. What some seem to define as "socialist" in this discussion, is actually what has been coined "social market economy" in Germany, a market economy in which the state interacts when there are market deficiencies and in which some areas such as healthcare are not left to the free market without some control.
But social market economy is far from being socialist in the sense that incentives to work efficiently are eliminated. I don't think general health insurance makes people lazy...

Edit: Found a good link about social market economy:
https://www.dw.com/en/can-germanys-socia...ears/a-50490937

It is not the healthcare that I am disagreeing with you really, it is the paying for it and the ability to "enforce" the same mentality on equalness on everyone to get it done.

Even here in Australia, we have free medical ( to a point) it is very cheap and then when you get past a threshold it is free. That includes hospital and dential and medicatrions etc.

But here the paid medical or if you pay your own (and get your choice or surgeon/ doctor ) and treatments is far lower than in the USA by far. When Barack Obama was in office his Obamacare pushed costs through the roof for those who paid; as someone has to pay.

Here is an article that states three (3) countries that tried Socialism and then rejected it since it failed......and it will surprise you which countries; but Crossover ha mentioned one already.

https://www.heritage.org/progressivism/commentary/three-nations-tried-socialism-and-rejected-it

Three key points of the article are:-


1. Israel, India, and the United Kingdom all adopted socialism as an economic model following World War II.

2. Socialism is guilty of a fatal conceit: It believes its system can make better decisions for the people than they can for themselves.

3. Socialism has failed in every country in which it has been tried.

Conclusion for them:- Israel’s socialist miracle turned out to be a mirage, India discarded socialist ideology and chose a more market-oriented path, and the United Kingdom set an example for the rest of the world with its emphasis on privatization and deregulation. Whether we are talking about the actions of an agricultural country of 1.3 billion, or the nation that sparked the industrial revolution, or a small Middle Eastern country populated by some of the smartest people in the world, capitalism tops socialism every time.

Healthcare for all is awesome, but a socialist state can't work for long and people being people, the rich minority will take all and the middle class and poor will all suffer and be poorer in the end; leaving a very unhealthy healthcare system.

But, if you can find a country that it has worked for years for all equally, please prove me wrong, since I still would love to get people a better system for the average man, woman and child. Then we can get the Pollies to make it happen........


Allan

So who pays that in Australia? As far as I know it is simply paid for through taxes. And that makes sense.

Too many people focus on one or the other, both of which are absolute and complete failures on their own, however put the 2 together so that they work in tandem and you have the best of both worlds. (The art is finding the balance which the UK is still working on)

Regarding healthcare, all countries that have free health care (In reality it’s actually paid for by everybody through taxes and/or compulsory insurance) actually pay (From the public purse) approximately half per person than those countries where most healthcare is private. (Or in other words if you can’t pay you die)

Bill

I totally agree, the pure form of each system is a complete failure.
In many cases, leaving developments to the decisions of the individual alone creates bad situations in which everyone loses.
In economics, this is sometimes expressed by individual rationalism leads to collective irrationalism. This regularly happens in the case of public goods (such as natural resources), as consumption of these goods cannot be controlled individually (like private goods, where you only get it if you pay the price).
Take the example of a football stadium, in which the spectators don‘t see everything pf the pitch when staying seated. Individual rationalism makes a spectator stand up to have a better view. As a consequence, the one behind him also has to stand up to see at all, and eventually everybody is standing and nobody has a better view than in the beginning, but everybody is less comfortable. Here the state comes in by regulating that nobody is allowed to stand up.

Here in the United States we have the Affordable Care Act (Obama Care) that guarantees insurance for those with previous medical conditions. Before that, private insurers' could, and most of the time would, reject insurer's who were unfortunate to have such a condition. Hard to put a price on that.

The ACA could be better with the originally included "Public Option", that includes a choice of either private or government coverage for those in need. This was rejected because most American Politicians do not want donors, such as Private Health Insurance Companies to loose out, and thus they, the politicians, would lose out on contributions (bribes).
Also as part of the ACA, individual States have a choice to accept money from the Federal Government for individuals who need help to pay for the Affordable Care Act. Most GOP States rejected that money simply because it had Obama's name attached to it. Bottom line, Obama Care can be greatly improved by at least allowing for the Public Option, either private or government covered insurance. Your choice. Nice to have choices. Either that or start over with a simple plan of Medicare for All.

Speaking of...

Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Italy, Ireland, New Zealand, Netherlands, UK, Germany, Austria, Canada, Australia, and every other civilized country are quite happy with government assisted "socialist" healthcare coverage. I doubt very much they would ever want to have to pay directly for, and deal with, private insurance companies, unless they want to. Again, nice to have choices.

Who's going to pay for Universal Health Care? The same citizens who currently pay for all other government run programs, you know, those socialist Roads and bridges they build, the socialist Police and Firemen that protect us, those socialist run Libraries, Medicare, Social Security, the VA, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, U.S. Department of Commerce, U.S. Department of Defense, U.S. Department of Education, U.S. Department of Energy. And yes the Socialist Military. (Speaking from experience, nothing is more socialist run than the U.S. Military.) The Department of Healthcare for All needs to be in that group and will actually reduce overall healthcare costs.

I'm done, I've said enough, This is a nice bar, but I talk too much, especially after having one too many.

Larry: Good, reasoned opinions about an involved, critical subject.

I appreciate the well articulated analysis.

Be well,


Russ

Yep, you are totally correct Nigel someone has too pay and the Government has to get the money from somewhere. Sometimes they get it interest on money they loan overseas as well.
Here is a very old (2012) tax graph for different countries, and the percentage they use to from company tax and personal tax.

I just thought it interesting where different countries get their money to pay for these things to support healthcar and transport, roads , schools etc.

Anyway, thanks everyone for their thoughts and taking part. I think it is good to give all sides of a subject, as it enlights us all.

Thanks Russ for the topic and Hawk too for getting me to think lol.


Allan

Allan

One major unanswered point never brought up in these discussions. What about the rights of those of us who don't really care about the society but about only our own situations. In our most recent election, doesn't It bother anyone that HALF of the nation disagrees with you and your philosophies no matter which side you're on?

An amazing look at the map of the election results; The entire northeast went Democrat. Kind of looks like the north and the south of the civil war.

It‘s one of the problems of the human mind (e.g. according to teachers of Buddhism) to think in binary oppositions. It‘s more a simplified illusion than reality that there is only black or white, Republican or Democrat etc. In fact, I‘m sure many people are somewhere in between the extremes, but due to the majority voting system the map suggests states are completely red or blue (although we all know it‘s not true). It‘s a pity we always want to find the total contrast and the „other“ we want to disidentify with.

Rachel, I think you have hit on something I have been fascinated with for years. Life is so much more boring (and vicious) when you eliminate the greys. Everything isn't always black or white.

A polarized people cannot work together for the greater good.

Two polar opposites; Chas and Gary, are good friends of mine. That's because I have had the great privilege of visiting Chas and talking to Gary on a regular basis. I call Nigel and have gotten a lot more interaction with all three by talking or visiting than from simply responding electronically.

In fact, I joined the "zone" to look at the difference between purely electronic and more involved interpersonal communication from an academic aspect. I don't visit any other site. In fact, except for specs, I don't even use arrangers; at least not for performance.

I'm told that the great exodus from the bar was because of my comments related to political issues.

Of those who left, if we were sitting across from each other, the only thing we would be fighting about is who would buy the next round.

Rachel, you are one of my favorites here. Hopefully, after the world settles down a bit and I recover a little more I may try to talk to you in person.

I'd really enjoy that. If possible, I'd gladly buy the next round.


Russ

That is usually why society don't worry about those who couldn't give a flip about society's situations, since they are too navel gazing to look at the big picture.

Society , really is a big bunch of navel gazes ( people pushing their own agendas) finding a like minded people with "similar" wants/ needs /desires and then call themselves the majority. Society = the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.

If you don't like society, then go live in the forest or out at sea or on an island. It is all possible but extremely hard to do, and you loose all the society's comforts and benifits that you have. Buy a extra large block of land - like 500 acres and build a house in the middle of it and go off grid maybe ( I for one would love too). Ok, I am becoming a grumpy old man or is that grumpier old man; I am relising that when I get the look from my wife, which I am getting more and more.

There was a Peanuts sketch once, that went :- "I love humanity, it's the people I can't stand!

And that, to be honest, is the problem with Politics - the people stuff it up real bad. Take out the people and the politics would work every time lol.

The good thing that still remains is that you can have an opinion and it does not agree with others ( even half the country) but we are all intelligent people , to a point. We have weighed the facts and in our experiences have come to a place thatwe feel that this would work best for the country. It may not be correct but it is what we feel would do the job. Sometimes, you don't get the best choice to decide with. Like two old men, one 74 and the other 77 representing their Paries but doing their own thing in a sense is hard to vote for.

As Crossroads mentioned about black or white, the parties are varied in their outlook, as some are left or left of right or right etc. But the leaders ( who you vote for in the US) may be leaning far left or far right, or elsewhere . You need to know who is who and where they are leading the country. But you have the right to your own opinion and to say, this is whatI believe, as no one has the right to tell you otherwise.

Of course, it is how you tell poeple or how you stand up for your beliefs and not destroy homes and shops or hurt others, physically or verbally; but also listen to others opinions too.

Now I am rambling on again, sorry..........




Allan

Rachel if you are comfortable conversing in English you will enjoy chatting with Russ. I have spoken with him on a number of occasions and he really is a treasure. He is so down to earth and we need more people like him in this world.

Problem is I really have always despised the 5th grade teacher trying to force me into living my life by her standards!

Man, Nigel, that post of yours created a little moisture in the ocular area.

Thanks so much!

R.

I‘m really looking forward to speak to Russ in person. I should be comfortable conversing in English, otherwise I should quickly abandon my job as an English language teacher Unfortunately, at the time I was at school it was not yet the standard to spend a whole schoolyear in the US, but I spent a total of 12 weeks in British and US host families, and during my English studies, 2 months in Vancouver, B.C. for an internship. Lately I watched so much CNN that I think a lot has been reactivated, too.

Rachel, I'm looking forward to talking on the phone. I have had a little setback, health wise. Had to have another couple of cc's of liquid taken off my heart. I am taking a med for 90 more days that keeps my heart rate under 50, so the sack around it can heal.

This last procedure hurt like hell (done with a needle and not nearly enough sedation), but it was not the general anesthetic they used last time. I was only of work 1/3 day, and did a sound score for UPS the next day.

Tell you what. When my meds are used up and I can actually stay awake...probably right after Christmas, I will send you a message with my number via the synthzone email system. If you are OK with it, you can give me your contact number. I know that international calls can get costly with an old windbag like me, and I'll call you on the line we use for all our international business classes (tax deductible....YEA).

That will give me a good thing to look forward to.


Be well, all.

And call or visit someone you care about.


R.

Looking forward to the talk! The intervention you had sounds nasty. Heart rate below 50 sounds extreme as well, you must be completely set to slo-mo... Get well soon!

Thanks, "KID"!

R.

Russ,could you and Rachel set up a Skype link,you could talk to each other for free.

Or maybe we could set up a zoom call and have a SZ Group get together.

I talk to my Italian client via Zoom almost every day. Maybe that will work.What do you think, Rachel?

Be well. I greatly admire teachers, and have been an active professor of communications for over 50 years. Love the kids and the purpose. Hate the politics.

Be well,


Russ

I have used Skype a few times, Zoom not yet, but I‘ve planned to try it anyway, it‘s a nice idea. Let‘s envisage that for the time after Christmas. Stay well or get well soon!

OK. Start thinking of a time and day sometime after the holidays. Bear in mind time zones, and the number of invitees. Speaking from experience, too many users involved can be chaotic. The first 30 minutes is free, and that should be enough time. (even for Russ)

We would need someone to be in charge of the zoom setup. And maybe let everyone know as a new post topic in all of the various SZ Forums.

Think about it, and any suggestions please comment. It sounds like a fun deal

I`ve used Skype for many years with my relations in Canada but Zoom is new to me.I`ve read about it and seen it in action on TV
I would like to give it a try but would need a little help from my friends.

Skype is Fine.

R.