After my initial post about my purchasing the cheapo Yamaha PSR373 in addition to my Ketron SD9 and Korg PA50sd I have just recorded a little improvisation using the main grand piano sounds from both of these instrument. Each first "verse "is with
one piano each "second verse " with the other piano.
Just have a listen to hear the differences, decide which is which and finally ask yourselves are we listening to a 3800 dollar price difference ?

regards
John

https://app.box.com/s/szi8tok1a9lh1njt02g49cfe38d84bx2

With such tunes, there is hardly any difference in the piano sounds. It might become more evident if a classical piano tune was played involving all the different dynamics - which is difficult to do with a semi-weighted keyboard. Nowadays, 10 times as much waveROM for a specific sound only leads to nuances of perceived gain in realism, whereas in the early 90s 10 times the waveROM was a massive improvement. A typical "degressive growth utility function".

There is a differance bit not worth $3800. The decay of the initial sound is what I noticed first and then the quality overall of the sample. Both work fine in that context of music. Nice improve.

Listen to Keyscape demos, or any of the virtual piano well regarded libraries, and you rapidly see that we are discussing the difference between bad and slightly less bad..!

I know it’s an arranger forum, but we aren’t discussing arrangers here, just a piano sound. And a $400 VSTi puts them all to shame. And throws in almost every other keyboard you might ever want (name an arranger’s Rhodes or Wurlitzer that even comes close to Keyscape’s?).

Lately I’ve been using SWAM’s saxes on my iPad, a $30 purchase, and they utterly destroy the best articulated saxes in the Genos and PA4X. I hate to say it, but for the standout sounds that front most pop music, the day of the arranger has long passed.

With a piano, I agree with Crossover. You gain more realism playing it from a fully weighted 88 than you do from an extra GB of samples. Is there a difference between the two recorded examples? Definitely. Thousands of dollars worth? No. But the difference between the cheapest arranger and a VSTi costing even less is exponentially more.

Arrangers aren’t the be all and end all. If cost vs. quality is the question, an arranger is virtually never the answer…

In my opinion, the quality of the piano sounds in most arrangers is adequate (and is even complimentary to) the rest of the soundset that makes up the average arrangement (unless the piano is the featured solo voice in a piano-oriented arrangement). If you're that great a pianist and demand better, get a digital piano or a great 88 controller and the best sample library you can afford. I love 'Rhodes' and bought a SEVEN; I love it more each day. JMO.

chas

Agree with Chas here.

Rachel,
YOu are right about the 88 weighted keys ( and so is Diki).
However and once again here I see eye to eye with Chas, most arranger keyboard players are not truly proficient pianists and most music they play ( let alone most music their listeners listen to) are well served with most current piano samples in the main brands of keyboards.
As to Diki's comments on VST sounds etc. I think with all respect Diki this is an entirely different ballgame. Far removed from your "just switch on the arranger, pick a style , pick a sound and PLAY.
VST require a fast computer with a fast processor ( has its price), requires the purchase of high quality VST sounds, you mention some famous brands ( has its price) , and requires knowledge and being capable of arranging all that stuff with your computer and keyboard(s). It is entirely unsuited for gigging imho and when, like me, at home, it still requires all the aforesaid. Mind you some of these ( more expensive ) VST are fantastic. But they are entirely beyond the scope and premise of this thread, see below.
I purchased Mixcraft 9Pro which has a fair number of meritable VST sounds on board, I added the Korg M1 VST package as well as the Piano VST package Addictive Keys. All very nice but still a lot of work and not substantially very superior to what I have got now.

Ah yes.....the premise of this thread was.......:

Would/ should you if you had a little money to spare ( 200 dollars), while in the possession of one or more (arranger) keyboards but nothing from the Yamaha brand, consider the purchase of the PSR373 or similar keyboard , like I did ?

regards,
John

To me the answer is NO. For the same reason you mentioned about the VST babel vs HW: convenience (or lack of).

Having many pieces of equipment to manage (stand/desktop space, cables, mixer, different UI, difficulty to integrate them, .....) is inconvenient. And this fact offsets any possible marginal gain you might have in this or that sound.
And after all, above a certain threshold, nobody will ever notice the difference. The realism of the sound itself is not even important, what matters is the beauty/appropriateness of the sound in the context of the song.

Take for example some Italo Disco hits of the 80s. The piano sound was pathetic if compared to today’s standards. But those tunes are nonetheless masterpieces and sound great even today, some 40 years later.

But there is also another consideration to make: are 3-4 k€ arrangers (and premium products in general) worth the asked price? Probably not.
The much higher price, if compared to the mid range (normal, for the masses) model is not justified by a corresponding higher quality. It is astronomically high on purpose, just to catch the wealthy people that will pay any price just to have the best. Even if they are barely capable to play with a single finger.

Instead of having a 4000 + 200 $ arrangers, maybe a single 1000-2000 $ one would be better.

The complexity of using virtual instruments has diminished radically in the last few years. There are quite a lot of host applications designed specifically for live playing that make using virtual instruments almost a joy compared to 20 years ago.

And honestly, if you compare them to the complexity of using a top-of-the-line hardware arranger, I honestly don’t see much difference at all!

I am starting to get a little tired about the argument of how poor arranged players in general tend to be. I don’t believe that is the case, and I’ve heard much playing here that supports that. The truth is, it doesn’t matter WHAT sound we are talking about, in the hands of a bad player it is going to sound bad! And the greatest virtual instrument piano is still going to sound bad, Just like if an eight year old sits down at an REAL piano!

The thing is, do we just stop here, and say “OK, that’s good enough!“, or do we strive for ever better for the apparently few of us that can either hear the difference or play the difference? Me, I’m inclined to think that more of us CAN hear the difference, and CAN make musical use of the difference. Settling for what’s ‘good enough’ for the average arranger user would have stopped the last 20 years worth of progress. It was ‘good enough’ back then too…

Diki,

Let's just say we agree to disagree here and leave it at that, okay ?

Let it be noticed that I started this and the other thread related to my purchase of the yamaha PSR373 as a tip or possible advice to folks with arranger keyboards other than the yamaha brand and that I thought/think it might be worth exploring this cheap yamaha keyboard as a (fun) extension to any existing rig. It works for me and I think the value for money rate is absolutely stellar at 199 bucks....anyway there are loads and loads youtube videos on the merits of this budget arranger for anyone possibly interested to explore.

Of course it also helps here in Holland, Belgium and Germany that the number of arranger keyboards in households is manyfold of that in the USA. Not only can you buy them at virtually any music shop wherever, we also have those three giant internet stores ( Bax Music in Holland, and Thomann Music and Music Store in Germany) that offer them at very competitive prices and always with a 30 days return guarantee " money back if not satisfied "....

It is also worthwhile pointing out that the SZ forum of which I have been a member for over 20 years now is basically a forum where 90% of the active participants are from the USA ( with the odd ones in like me from Holland, one or two from Germany, Australia and the UK. Just an observation mind you....

kind regards
John

PSR-E373 is quite a recent Yamaha keyboard and Yamaha decided to give it their "Live! Concert Grand Piano", which is unusual for this price range. I believe that it is pretty much the same piano as used in PSR-S950 or PSR-SX900. I recognize it in the recording, it starts on the second verse. Well, everyone has his own needs and preferences. But I find this sound to work very well with styles, and I also feel that I can express myself with it freely. Because playability is not quite the same as the quality of samples. I still try different approaches to work with music, but so far I really need it to be the most playable.

John, I completely understand your perspective, don’t get me wrong. And, in my younger days was an enthusiastic user of multiple keyboards for live performance. But primarily because nothing covered all the bases adequately. As an organ and piano player originally, it was next to impossible in the 80’s and early 90’s to find something that did both well. So my rig was usually a workstation, a sampler, a synth and an organ with some sort of Leslie.

I think my K2500S was the first thing I got that really did it all well, and that wasn’t really until the late 90’s early 00’s, and it was an utterly impractical beast for anything other than house gigs, it weighed a TON and was temperamental about how it was transported (most touring pros would have them modified to strap all the connectors to the internal boards to prevent jiggling loose, and transported in heavily padded flight cases) and took several minutes to boot up and load in the samples.

An amazing piece of kit, and I still use it for home studio stuff, it stands up very well against a lot of modern gear, particularly with how every button, knob, slider, ribbons and pedal inputs can be completely user defined, so you can do some pretty amazing things like use the big ribbon to change patches and layouts so you don’t have to be ultra precise hitting a tiny button in the middle of a song! Massively complicated, but massive learning curve as well.

However, around this time, this is when I discovered arrangers as light casual live gig keyboards. Not for playing solo, mind you, but for playing with a variety of live bands, trios, duos etc.. When you play in a lot of underrehearsed outfits, you really don’t have the time to spend setting up splits, layers, hunting for sounds and effects etc., most of the time time they call the song title and a key (if you are that lucky!) and it’s go time!

To be fair, most workstations are simply not designed to do this well. But the arranger was. The soundset was pretty well balanced (workstations’ soundsets are often wildly dissimilar in volume or effects etc.), the patches were logically organized so sounds could be rapidly found, and splits and layers were a snap to switch on in a hurry. Live gig nirvana! I could sit in with anyone, get called a tune and have what I felt like for it usually before the count-off. That’s a near impossibility with a workstation…

It wasn’t until later that I started to get into the style section, and started to explore doing solo gigs with it. And, I have to admit, I still wasn’t a big fan of actually using the style section live. My whole playing style since I started playing in bands revolved around BOTH hands playing independent parts, piano left, brass right, or organ right, strings left, etc.. This basically had to get tossed out the window once my left hand got tied up being mandated to playing the chords for the style section. Not to mention, as a pitch bend addict, I felt perpetually torn between playing the chords and wanting to go to the levers or wheels to inflect the solo sound. This drove me nuts!

So although I loved the arranger, I hated using the style section live! But it occurred to me, why not use the style section at home to create the tracks, keep it to basic rhythm section like the bands I played with, then all I had to play was exactly what I would have played with a real band? That made a lot of sense to me.

So yes, I realize I come from a fairly different origin than a lot of arranger players, and yes, my viewpoint is often at odds with the more traditional home player’s origin. But, in the end, and the thing that I’m hoping to bring to SZ, is that the tool is not the job. The job is the job. One finger chords or a computer full of VST8’s, we’re trying to make MUSIC. And make it as well, and if possible as easily as we can.

So, to that end, I am often found trying to inject a little different perspective into discussions that seem perhaps a little too focused on the tool rather than the job. For the purpose of making MUSIC, it doesn’t matter if the job gets done with an arranger, or a workstation or a rack of modules or a laptop running a bunch of VSTi’s, or a microphone on your home piano! The job is the job…

I am about simplicity these days, especially when performing. The one downside to adding additional gear to your rig that counters the benefit of new sounds based on utterly different samples is you have to now learn an ENTIRELY different OS, different names for the same things… Just how many different terms are there for a stored set of sounds, style settings and the rest?! Why does every manufacturer call the same thing different names?! Why isn’t the save structure the same?

So the ‘one arranger’ approach is what I choose for live. Outside of that, for recording, sky’s the limit. For me, it’s whatever gets the job done the BEST. And, for each of us, that’s going to be different. So, I’m not trying to say anybody’s wrong.

Just that there are alternatives, and most of them aren’t yet another arranger. Perhaps there’s additional creativity to be found getting away from another arranger and looking at software, or a cheap workstation (so you can get into arpeggiation and clip launching as well as getting different sounds, for instance) or looking at sample sets you can load into your main arranger’s sampler…

Creativity is often sparked with a fresh approach, a different tool for the same job. Be careful about only looking in one place for answers and inspiration… 😎🎹🎄

Wow Diki that is one hell of a piece of prose so to speak !!!
Incidentally one of the reasons I have always set great store by the value and merits of this forum in contrast with current day reflections on FAcebook,Instagram etc.etc. where one-liners, or at best one paragraph is about all that you get in any kind of conversation be it on arranger keyboards or whatever....

Down to business though !
Perusing your views a few times it explains a lot why we differ in views here about e.g. my adding a cheap yamaha keyboard to my excellent Ketron SD9. Allow me to elaborate.
In contrast with your career ( I'll be hitting 70 in Christmas Eve) I have hardly ever performed publicly, never played in a band ( though occasional with a band) and as such have always been a one man home band so to speak. Initially way back when I learnt to play chords on the guitar, then came the electric organ and synths in the 1980ties and after that the arranger keyboards starting with the Roland E70. At the turn of the century I turned away from Roland and became rather enthusiastic about Korg and to a lesser degree about ketron.
In between 2002 and 2015 I programmed quite extensively on Korg arranger to a point that many considered me to be a Korg expert which I am not, not really anyway. After the release of the PA3X and PA900 I shied away from Korg because they were not compatible with earlier models , at least not with THE REGISTRATIONS, a matter of prime importance to me....

Now being a home musician allows you time. Time to set up things the way you want to and to delve deep into the heart of the arranger keyboard. Here we must also observe the fact that these arranger up till approx. 2012 missed sophistication as regards Registrations ( or User Programs in Roland terminology)
Most of the factory preset registations were computer created and e.g. all acc. tracks defaulted to a reverb of 64 out of the 128 value. Only over the last 5 to 8 years some of them, in particular Yamaha , have improved the preset registrations or songlists, etc.

YOu only have to ask folks even here on the forum that at one stage or another ordered my JS sofwware for Korg PA50,80,500 KMA and PA800 how much it affected the quality of their instrument.....
In other words Registrations in my way of making music are of prime importance and in constrast with "pick a style, pick a righthand sound and just PLAY "..... I guess that is also due to the fact that apart from having time at my hands and not having to gig to me it is important to arrange and try to render the (cover) song in a different arrangement from the original, or at least in a way that it adds something personal to it... As I mentioned before, what is the point of singing "Pretty Woman " with the perfect and identical accompaniment on my arranger keyboard, just sitting in my music room ? It is a different kettle of fish if you have to perform that song to an audience live, who want to be entertained and who want to be pleased hearing the "original version " or at least its proximity....
As to you having turned into a one keyboard only person ( plus computer VST, etc..etc.) I can only say this. Over the last twenty years I have always been a staunch supporter of owing two arranger keyboards of different brands. Three would be an exaggerations granted but two different brands compliment one another excellently. Incidentally the fun purchase of the PSR373 was only due to the fact that my wife thought it would make for a nice gift when turning 70....
Over the last five years I have also tried and master the piano a little bit which is hard work if you only start out at 65, but I get by. A good example of both my arranging and piano work is my recent rendition of Wonderful Tonight, already posted I think but just in case you missed it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCMrtPKBqlk

I am also fortunate in owing three (semi) acoustic guitars, nothing fancy mind you, and as such I can muck about with all of these to create a new coversong. ( If you check your email I will send you a link to my latest compilation CD , covering stuff I did over the last 18 months). If anyone else is interested , just ask......

A final word on the cheap Yamaha PSR373 also bearing in mind what Paul said in one of the comments. It is a great fun keybaord with an incredibly amount of sounds styles and even a load of arpeggios. Battery operated if you want to, extremely lightweight and even sporting the Concert Grand to be found in much more expensive PSR models, it is good fun and as Paul said once you get fed up with it you can always make a child or someone else in his or her initial stages a very happy person with it.

Stay safe and have a good Xmas and New Year's Eve.

John

O.T.  maybe.

All this about sound, keyboards, and the many ways to use the computer to create --- it is all just stuff to me; but it wasn’t.

My search for a better keyboard led me to Technics; from the Kn1000, to the Kn7000. I made a trip to compare the Ketron keyboard. Bought a Roland, did not like the OS, but the sounds were good, so I bought a module. I purchased the encore music writing program – I have about 760 songs – put each note in one at a time. Edited the sounds used. Cakewalk/Sonar to create.

In my band, I had a Hammond B3, a drummer, a great sax player; and myself on lead vocal and guitar – we played together for over 25 years. In the early 89’s I move to Florida and bought my first keyboard, Yamaha. My plan/dream was to create what I had when I was with my band. The reason why people came was to have a good time. If I could duplicate what I did, the people who came would have a good time.
WHAT BECAME IMPORTANT

1- Move from song to song quickly.
2- The tempo.
3- The instrument had to sound good, not excellent. What I did with the instrument was important.
4- Bring my excitement to the dance floor when playing rock and up tempo. Sing a love as if I was there.
5- The keyboard had to have eight Regs I select without changing the type of style or tempo. Piano,Trumpet,Sax,Brass, and whatever I needed to make the song sound good.

Order of importantance:
1- People
2- Me
3- Keyboard
Order of importance as a home player:
1-Me
2-Keyboard
3-Having FUN!

I wish you the best during the coming holidays, John C.

I never used tracks, I felt they added to the player’s freedom to play as he would play in a band.

Tracks do not allow freedom to add your feelings/emotion.
The same intro --- same chord changes --- freedom to add something different.

I will be recording tracks now; explore another way to create music.
John C.

Just curious; why do we always key on the fidelity of the PIANO sound in an arranger when it's usually the least prominent voice in the average ARRANGEMENT. And if it's an orchestral arrangement, isn't the string section (including individual string voices) or the flutes or the oboes and bassoons at least as important? Or even in Big Band arrangements, what about the trumpets, trombones, saxes, acoustic basses, drums, etc. Frankly, I don't think I've ever heard an arranger performance that was 'ruined' by the quality of the piano voice. In the words of Synthzone's legendary literary giant, "just sayin'".

chas

I agree.
MEL

I think it is first of all because an arranger has some sort of piano keyboard, so it is closer to it by its nature. Also, other sounds are used for styles, so when we judge the styles, we judge these sounds. But it does say a lot of a keyboard when it comes to such sounds as oboe or electric guitar, although I still seem to play the piano sound the most, perhaps because it gives all my fingers something to do. Well, it is also quite a pleasant sound as well :-)

I think anyone who can play well enough to put out a decent arranger recording really has the chops to go join a band, even if just for fun and home playing. It’s an utterly different experience, learning the give and take of three or four other players with equally valid but often different musical viewpoints on a song or style.

It is anything BUT trying to completely duplicate a hit recording! The players are different, the instruments they use are different from the original in all likelihood (a Strat through a Fender isn’t going to duplicate a Firebird through a Marshall!), you likely have the one guitarist when the record had two making multiple overdubs using acoustics and electrics galore. You’ve got a drummer who can’t change from a jazz kit on one song to a rock kit on another. And you only have two hands to pull off not only the piano part, but also the horns and strings or synth parts..!

It is NEVER about duplicating the original. It is very similar to your approach with arrangers. You make up something new that works…

I think there’s a lot of assumptions from home players that rarely play with others about the whole ‘live band’ experience. But the best thing about it is, you are constantly surprised and delighted and challenged by other musicians doing something that, in its turn, pushes you to do something different, to be creative. In truth, I rarely get that from an arranger. They are designed to do the expected!

And, if you have a decent arranger, you have a keyboard quite perfectly designed to play with a group. It just takes a bit of courage, a bit of willingness to step outside our comfort zones, a bit of willingness to expose weaknesses in the effort to improve them.

Nobody’s talking going out and touring, or even trying to book your band in clubs and halls. Just getting four people together with a shared love of a type of music, and jamming a couple of hours a week. It will produce more growth and confidence than a year spent alone with an arranger and a computer! And perhaps clear up a few misunderstandings about what ‘pro’ musicians do.

There’s no deep mystery or mastery. Just the willingness to get together with others and push ourselves a bit outside of the comfort zone. There are others just like you out there in the thousands. Go find them, step away from the machines for a while. The skills you learn playing with others will pay huge dividends even when you return to the machines.

Playing live isn’t about ‘How do I duplicate the record as closely as possible?’. It’s ‘How do I get four guys to make something enjoyable?’. And there are so many ways to do it…