After my initial post about my purchasing the cheapo Yamaha PSR373 in addition to my Ketron SD9 and Korg PA50sd I have just recorded a little improvisation using the main grand piano sounds from both of these instrument. Each first "verse "is with
one piano each "second verse " with the other piano.
Just have a listen to hear the differences, decide which is which and finally ask yourselves are we listening to a 3800 dollar price difference ?

regards
John

https://app.box.com/s/szi8tok1a9lh1njt02g49cfe38d84bx2

With such tunes, there is hardly any difference in the piano sounds. It might become more evident if a classical piano tune was played involving all the different dynamics - which is difficult to do with a semi-weighted keyboard. Nowadays, 10 times as much waveROM for a specific sound only leads to nuances of perceived gain in realism, whereas in the early 90s 10 times the waveROM was a massive improvement. A typical "degressive growth utility function".

There is a differance bit not worth $3800. The decay of the initial sound is what I noticed first and then the quality overall of the sample. Both work fine in that context of music. Nice improve.

Listen to Keyscape demos, or any of the virtual piano well regarded libraries, and you rapidly see that we are discussing the difference between bad and slightly less bad..!

I know it’s an arranger forum, but we aren’t discussing arrangers here, just a piano sound. And a $400 VSTi puts them all to shame. And throws in almost every other keyboard you might ever want (name an arranger’s Rhodes or Wurlitzer that even comes close to Keyscape’s?).

Lately I’ve been using SWAM’s saxes on my iPad, a $30 purchase, and they utterly destroy the best articulated saxes in the Genos and PA4X. I hate to say it, but for the standout sounds that front most pop music, the day of the arranger has long passed.

With a piano, I agree with Crossover. You gain more realism playing it from a fully weighted 88 than you do from an extra GB of samples. Is there a difference between the two recorded examples? Definitely. Thousands of dollars worth? No. But the difference between the cheapest arranger and a VSTi costing even less is exponentially more.

Arrangers aren’t the be all and end all. If cost vs. quality is the question, an arranger is virtually never the answer…

In my opinion, the quality of the piano sounds in most arrangers is adequate (and is even complimentary to) the rest of the soundset that makes up the average arrangement (unless the piano is the featured solo voice in a piano-oriented arrangement). If you're that great a pianist and demand better, get a digital piano or a great 88 controller and the best sample library you can afford. I love 'Rhodes' and bought a SEVEN; I love it more each day. JMO.

chas

Agree with Chas here.

Rachel,
YOu are right about the 88 weighted keys ( and so is Diki).
However and once again here I see eye to eye with Chas, most arranger keyboard players are not truly proficient pianists and most music they play ( let alone most music their listeners listen to) are well served with most current piano samples in the main brands of keyboards.
As to Diki's comments on VST sounds etc. I think with all respect Diki this is an entirely different ballgame. Far removed from your "just switch on the arranger, pick a style , pick a sound and PLAY.
VST require a fast computer with a fast processor ( has its price), requires the purchase of high quality VST sounds, you mention some famous brands ( has its price) , and requires knowledge and being capable of arranging all that stuff with your computer and keyboard(s). It is entirely unsuited for gigging imho and when, like me, at home, it still requires all the aforesaid. Mind you some of these ( more expensive ) VST are fantastic. But they are entirely beyond the scope and premise of this thread, see below.
I purchased Mixcraft 9Pro which has a fair number of meritable VST sounds on board, I added the Korg M1 VST package as well as the Piano VST package Addictive Keys. All very nice but still a lot of work and not substantially very superior to what I have got now.

Ah yes.....the premise of this thread was.......:

Would/ should you if you had a little money to spare ( 200 dollars), while in the possession of one or more (arranger) keyboards but nothing from the Yamaha brand, consider the purchase of the PSR373 or similar keyboard , like I did ?

regards,
John

To me the answer is NO. For the same reason you mentioned about the VST babel vs HW: convenience (or lack of).

Having many pieces of equipment to manage (stand/desktop space, cables, mixer, different UI, difficulty to integrate them, .....) is inconvenient. And this fact offsets any possible marginal gain you might have in this or that sound.
And after all, above a certain threshold, nobody will ever notice the difference. The realism of the sound itself is not even important, what matters is the beauty/appropriateness of the sound in the context of the song.

Take for example some Italo Disco hits of the 80s. The piano sound was pathetic if compared to today’s standards. But those tunes are nonetheless masterpieces and sound great even today, some 40 years later.

But there is also another consideration to make: are 3-4 k€ arrangers (and premium products in general) worth the asked price? Probably not.
The much higher price, if compared to the mid range (normal, for the masses) model is not justified by a corresponding higher quality. It is astronomically high on purpose, just to catch the wealthy people that will pay any price just to have the best. Even if they are barely capable to play with a single finger.

Instead of having a 4000 + 200 $ arrangers, maybe a single 1000-2000 $ one would be better.

The complexity of using virtual instruments has diminished radically in the last few years. There are quite a lot of host applications designed specifically for live playing that make using virtual instruments almost a joy compared to 20 years ago.

And honestly, if you compare them to the complexity of using a top-of-the-line hardware arranger, I honestly don’t see much difference at all!

I am starting to get a little tired about the argument of how poor arranged players in general tend to be. I don’t believe that is the case, and I’ve heard much playing here that supports that. The truth is, it doesn’t matter WHAT sound we are talking about, in the hands of a bad player it is going to sound bad! And the greatest virtual instrument piano is still going to sound bad, Just like if an eight year old sits down at an REAL piano!

The thing is, do we just stop here, and say “OK, that’s good enough!“, or do we strive for ever better for the apparently few of us that can either hear the difference or play the difference? Me, I’m inclined to think that more of us CAN hear the difference, and CAN make musical use of the difference. Settling for what’s ‘good enough’ for the average arranger user would have stopped the last 20 years worth of progress. It was ‘good enough’ back then too…

Diki,

Let's just say we agree to disagree here and leave it at that, okay ?

Let it be noticed that I started this and the other thread related to my purchase of the yamaha PSR373 as a tip or possible advice to folks with arranger keyboards other than the yamaha brand and that I thought/think it might be worth exploring this cheap yamaha keyboard as a (fun) extension to any existing rig. It works for me and I think the value for money rate is absolutely stellar at 199 bucks....anyway there are loads and loads youtube videos on the merits of this budget arranger for anyone possibly interested to explore.

Of course it also helps here in Holland, Belgium and Germany that the number of arranger keyboards in households is manyfold of that in the USA. Not only can you buy them at virtually any music shop wherever, we also have those three giant internet stores ( Bax Music in Holland, and Thomann Music and Music Store in Germany) that offer them at very competitive prices and always with a 30 days return guarantee " money back if not satisfied "....

It is also worthwhile pointing out that the SZ forum of which I have been a member for over 20 years now is basically a forum where 90% of the active participants are from the USA ( with the odd ones in like me from Holland, one or two from Germany, Australia and the UK. Just an observation mind you....

kind regards
John

PSR-E373 is quite a recent Yamaha keyboard and Yamaha decided to give it their "Live! Concert Grand Piano", which is unusual for this price range. I believe that it is pretty much the same piano as used in PSR-S950 or PSR-SX900. I recognize it in the recording, it starts on the second verse. Well, everyone has his own needs and preferences. But I find this sound to work very well with styles, and I also feel that I can express myself with it freely. Because playability is not quite the same as the quality of samples. I still try different approaches to work with music, but so far I really need it to be the most playable.