korg's most styles are "session" type format. ( meaning sounds great for some songs but not generic enough for most songs due to over complex bass and drum programming and fills.(Eg- Bille jean bass line drums in disco group/ Santana 'a smooth in Latin rock group/ Macarena in Latin dance group, long train runnin' , etc). Korg need more simpler styles IMHO.If you need only 10-15 styles for your set, no problem. But if you want fast song creation without going thru sequencing , Korg styles' limitation appear.
You see yourself hunting for more styles but luck may not be great for Anglo music playing (us/uk )OMBers.( yes , Mideast , euro and Balkans - no problem due to excellent local sound and style support).
session styles sound great if you play that song or on their own (without singing )but start to sing on top of it, annoyance comes even if you mute the tracks due to over complicated bass riffs or drum fills .

This is how yamaha' style ( eg- tyros) divides. It still has session types ( 10%)but most of them are pro types (90%)when one style fits many songs due to simple bass and drum programming.again pro type means that's how they call it. Nothing to do with "professional" by definition.


The problem of Korg’s is over complex bass programming and riffs coming in and out that has nothing to do with the song. If you mute it, you'll lose the bass track.as a user of both I know it very well.

You can sound great with Korg with minimum training because complex styles take care if the rest as long as you know when to comp your chords since busy tracks play by themselves. New Korgs ( 3x and afterwords )are getting better by making it simpler but just not there yet.

Song specific styles of Yamaha that most mention are the “session” category. You should look in to “pro “ category and compare and contrast to see simpler and less complex riffs that fits most songs.

This is not about live sounding . Yes Korg is more live and punchier yet style limitations start to appear if you are use styles only for your gig and sing ( no mp3 or SMFers).


Advice to Korg - make more simpler 8 / 16 beat strum styles without over complex drum and bass lines/ cut too much off beat drum lines. Need more Ringo Star styles / fills not
Peter Erskine’s.

Your thoughts? ( I know some will say " how many styles do u need? I need only 20 and I reuse them, mute the tracks,.etc")Some might say yamaha has more songs styles( yes more in 3rd party styles).

Thing is Arrangers are not (And never have been) designed for professional working musicians but the home hobby player, hence the complex style to make them sound great without the wait. (There basically more advanced easy play features of the home entertainment organ)
For me personally I have always found Yamaha styles to be the worst out there as they are mainly song specific, Korg as you say are very live sounding and are like you have session musicians backing you, but for me, give me Roland styles any day of the week, as they are great whether you use an arranger keyboard or an organ where you do most of it yourself.
There is no right or wrong as each player has their own preferences

Bill

Having owned pretty much every brand of arranger keyboard on the market, I'll stick with my Yamaha. It allows me, using variations, to select as much or as little of what I want in a style, while at the same time, providing great backing for my vocals. Additionally, the sheer volume of 3rd party, song specific, styles available for Yamaha, places them light years ahead of most of the other top end brands. For someone that makes a living as a musician/singer/entertainer, for me, it would be hard to top Yamaha.

All the best,

Gary

For me other way around. Korg does sound live but it stops there. Lack of variety of simple styles are problem. Yamaha does have song specfic styles but bass line and fills are well programmed so with simple muting it fits other songs as well.

Major reason of TOTL Korg arranger sales are middle east and balkans. Not US / UK market where Yamaha sells better for following reasons.


- mid east/ balkan require sampling of their authentic ethnic instruments
- they have their local dealers/local style creations ( depending on the country- Turkish/ arabic/ armanian/ east euro/ balkans, etc)
- most western arranger korg users use mainly for occasional arranger use but mainly as SMF/ mp3/ wave playback machine or use the sequencer

- western arranger players ‘s music fit more with Yamaha styles ( only taking about arranger styles/not SMF or sequenced Playbacks)

Mid east/ balkan arranger player find limited styles in yamaha arrangers for their genre ( no PSR tutorial site can’t help since it’ mainly for western music ( signature of 4/4 s and 3/4s). They are looking more of 9/8s which are more in Korg/ Ketrons)

Western music - meaning - pop/ rock/jazz/ easy listening/ some latin etc
( not necessarily US/ UK ), but English language songs Or English language influenced pop songs from Asia as well

- Since Korg TOTL has better hardware and VH, song book , good drum sounds etc , for solo or duo giggers who rely or presequenced music find them useful

- once you take requests and use your arranger on fly , korg’s limitations appear really quick
, and Yamaha styles became invaluable

- another reason that Korg arranger users ( mainly western users) always asking for more more styles. more free yamaha styles ( converted from Korg PA, rolands, ketrons). Not the other way around due to mega voiced styles of Yamaha)

I have a yamaha e463, korg pa600 and recently bought a roland bk3 from ebay. Im not going to get in
a “my arranger is better” discussion. For me,my music and my live performance, the korg is setup for my live performance with special styles I made and edited factory styles. I added the yamaha for the yamaha
specific styles that I couldn’t duplicate on the korg. Together they work well.
So I ran across the bk3 at a great price, I started to play around with it and set it up with my song list and edited styles to fit my songs. I find myself playing the roland more due to a better mix in the styles that fit my songs . The fills are smoother and I seem to navigate faster on the fly compared to the korg and yamaha. The korg is great as far as making it your own style and sound but the time I spend doing that takes away from learning new material. So I use the roland for 90 percent of my styles and the korg for lead instruments and the yamaha is in the corner not being used at all. Each to their own I guess. I was surprised on how my rig ended up like this.

Pa 600 is way above the league of e463. psr sx700 which is in the same league of Pa600/700 will give you different results. Again only talking about western arranger styles for live play ( not talking about sound editing, sequencer or song book playback of smf/ mp3, where Korg is better ). MOTL PSR slays Korg in simple usable styles IMHO ( as my experience having more than 30 years as both arranger player ( duo/solo) and as live band KB player). ( I have TOTL korg and older TOTL yamaha).


Most of the Korg users and sales are from/ to middle east and balkans. Western Korg players mostly use the sequencer or use Korg as playback machine ( mainly of course with some exceptions) other than extensive use built in Korg arranger styles ( or converted yamaha styles to Korg which are not so great due to mega voice issue).


There is no better keyboard. Only better in different departments. We choose depending on our gig’s demands. Style usability ( for western music, not mid east/ ethnic or balkan music) , availability and acoustic sounds goes to Yamaha hands down. Deep sound / style Editing/ drum punchiness / synth/ pads/ organs/ certain EPs and sequencer goes to Korg.

I think the issue of over complicated styles honestly has little to do with platform, simply marketing…

But if you are interested in getting more ‘simple’ styles in your collection, you could perhaps start with looking at legacy collections of styles from say 15-20 years ago, the dawn of arrangers, when virtually ALL styles were generics. Because styles were ROM only, and an arranger had few of them compared to now, the manufacturer really couldn’t afford to fill the precious ROM with styles only good for one song!

But older styles come with issues of their own, mostly older sounds and kits and effects etc.. This is where an easy to use style header editing system comes in very handy. You can often turn a pretty stale sounding old style into something that matches the best of your current generation arranger simply by substituting better sounds and drum kits and utilizing the better modern effects. Then most style editing systems nowadays allow you to import tracks from other styles, which might allow you to substitute an older less dynamic track with say a better acoustic guitar strum pattern, etc.. Or import a nice percussion track to spice up a simpler style.

But pay attention to the balance and cohesiveness of the sounds you switch to, it’s pretty amazing how you can tweak those older styles to come pretty close to the sounds of the latest ROM styles.

If you are looking to play much yourself, those older styles honestly work better than most of today’s styles. Yes, they sound great, but it’s not YOU that’s playing much, it’s the machine. And where’s the fun in that?! 😎🎹

If you go on the korg website you will find FOR FREE, just about every style that korg has made and they keep updating new styles at no charge.
Now that's wjat I call pro. No really i played yamaha until korg came out with the pa900 and before yamaha I was a technics guy until they stopped making them and I found after working for a while with the korg, I was able to find just about any style I could think of. It is not a keyboard you can just sit down and play without a little bit of study.
Yamaha was easier but not as deep and you can't go by korg style names. They are very misleading and all over the place, and that might be why people think yamaha has better styles, because they just can't find them in the catigory they should be in. Just my experience

MEL

Thank you Mel
As long as I have had my Pa4X, it didn't occur to me to do a thorough search for styles in odd places.

The SX-900 onboard styles are all over the place as well. I can't figure out why Yamaha changed the basic category system that's been used for years.

I use the search function, and it's great at quickly finding both built in and User styles.

I was always a Technics man until my enforced change.
I have never owned, or even seen a Korg in real life.
Korg owners seem completely happy with their boards so I wonder why Korg have never thought of making a Style player midi module for those who already have a board they like but could bring a new freshness to it.

Viability, they need to get back what they spend on R&D, production and marketing etc. and the demand is just not there for them to make a profit. (Even Roland have discontinued there BK7m Midi module)
As far as I am aware, Ketron do still make hardware modules but I think they are the only one. (Also if you have a tablet or computer there are a number of software modules available which can be used)

Bill

They have already made the styles for their keyboards and paid for them by selling as many keyboards as they could.
No extra expenditure except to make the module
They (and you) will never know if the demand is there unless they try.
Korg owners think they are good so I would buy the module.
I don't have room for any more full keyboards but have 4 modules and would be happy to add to these.
The same argument applies to Yamaha too.

If there was demand then manufactures wouldn’t have phased them out, (There used to be quite a few) but with today’s powerful tablets (Even cheap ones) and lightweight laptops/All in Ones people just use software versions. (Hardware arrangers are also dying off as many have disappeared and refresh cycles are getting longer and longer)

Bill

I think refresh cycles are getting longer and longer because, let”s be frank, the last two or three generations of arrangers are already considerably more than all but a handful of professionals need..!

We so often see, unless in the hands of a pretty good player, no amount of better samples makes for a ‘better’ performance, you can make the world’s best arranger sound like a toy if you not skilled.

Not so workstations. Primarily used by professionals and skilled amateurs, the need to keep innovating, especially in light of the change in musical tastes (towards more analog synth realism and less emphasis on acoustic sound realism) there’s still a pretty healthy rate of innovation.

But the arranger is the tool of the older player, who’s musical tastes pretty much fossilized 30-40 years ago (at least!). Once you hit that wall, you’re not going to see an increased pace of development.

Sure, here at SZ we got some fairly committed arranger players, and a healthy interest in seeing the type move forward. But we are not representative of the thousands that buy arrangers worldwide. We got a handful here who post regularly. We are the 1% (way less, to be honest).

But I think I can quite honestly say, I have heard virtually nothing lately in the way of user demos that couldn’t have been done just as well on a PA2X, or a Tyros3, or an E80 etc.. We have got to the point of diminishing returns. I honestly think this is what’s driving the lack of demand and subsequent lack of development.

To be quite honest, I’m completely satisfied with my BK9. I don’t honestly have the slightest gearlust for anything else. In my mid-60’s, I hope to play this one keyboard until I croak! I don’t think Roland made a mistake getting out of the market. I’m more surprised that others aren’t following them..!

I'm speaking for the USA ONLY. I think there is/was a generation of Arranger players (buyers) that spanned about 35-40 years (mid 80's to present). Most have/had a presence here on Synthzone. Most are currently in the 60-90 age range. Few within this group have any interest in or are willing to shell out big bucks for any kind of radical new innovation in the arranger keyboard market. In other words, this small and declining group of enthusiasts IS IT! There is no indication (that I can see) that this market is attracting any new recruits. Sad as it may seem to some, this is probably the end of an era. I believe that the Arranger keyboard is well on it's way to taking it's place alongside those wonderful must-have furniture pieces of the past, the HOME ORGAN.

I think the reason for it's demise is something I have always alluded to (and been hated for); that is has never been accepted by or considered a legitimate musical instrument (in the classic sense) by PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS and especially aspiring young musicians who tend to be more innovative than what a style-playing machine will allow (at least in their minds). I can't count the times I've heard the word 'BORED' used in this forum, and that's the Achilles' heal of arrangers (in the hands of untrained musicians who MUST rely on 'styles' to produce a listenable product).

Let me be perfectly clear; an Arranger keyboard used solely in 'synth' mode (no auto-play) is simply that, a synth, and does not factor into this opinion post. However, there are cheaper ways (Synths, VSTi's, etc.) to achieve this musical end.

Another indicator of the probable demise of the Arranger is the almost negligible participation on THIS forum which is probably the most prominent of the arranger forums, and of course the lack of new product or even the usual rumors of new product. Sure, Covid 19 and the political divide that resulted certainly accelerated the decline, but I think any forum that is held together mainly by a few strong personalities, is doomed to a fixed and finite lifespan anyway. But that's life; no new blood, no future. Will a new PA5x or Genos II or BK10 resuscitate the market/forum/clan? Probably not, but who knows, let's wait (and wait and wait) and see. In the meantime, let's enjoy it while it lasts and hope that the thing that has always kept it together, a cult of personalities, will keep it together a little longer.

chas

A sobering but realistic prognosis Chas

talking about modules one of the best I owned and gigged with for approx 20yrs was the Technics smac1200 .

+1.

I agree Chas, and if I can share my little story. My father was the first that I knew of that owned an arranger keyboard. I don't quite remember the brand and model but it was one of the first that had advanced styles (versus the rather mundane drum beats on home organs) but we're talking way back when.

He was up there in age at that time, and being a musician, it was perfect for him to play and sing at nursing homes, the VFW, etc. Not to mention, it was easy for him to pack it up on his "snowbird" trips to Florida.

But I remember at the time, I was thinking, I would never play something like this, this so called keyboard, until he gave me his, when he upgraded. That was the early Nineties, and I've never looked back, and now I'm very happy he got me started with arranger keyboards. Today, for me, now an old fart, there's nothing better than playing at home with headphones on, just relaxing and forgetting about world troubles. I actually do like arrangers, as they can be used with or without backing tracks.

I was kinda young when I started, and perhaps those that are kinda young today, will also discover the benefits of an arranger keyboard. I have noticed some change in Yamaha styles and voices, that now include more modern beats, that may, or may not, attract young players. But getting kids to try an arranger is a whole other story. I've heard "that's for old people". And my answer is the familiar response "someday you'll be old"

We can only wait and see if Yamaha, Korg, Ketron, and others will keep on updating with new arranger keyboards, and perhaps younger players, who will get old, will find out what they've been missing. We shall see.

I'm an old fart, 81, and have been using an arranger keyboard for the better part of 40 years, 30 of which were spent on stage as an musical entertainer. Prior to the arranger keyboard, I played a 12-string guitar and performed in various bars and nite clubs, which to be perfectly honest, was the lowest paying job, with lousy hours, where you had to put up with drunks and dense cigarette smoke filling your lungs with every breath you took.

When arranger keyboards came into my life, I considered them the best thing since sliced bread. First and foremost, I no longer had to split the proceeds with 4 other band members. Next, after a fair amount of research, I discovered the senior circuit, which meant no drunks to contend with, much better hours, much higher pay and a nicer audience to perform to. I became a good friend to many of my audience members, attended several of their funerals, and miss them dearly - they were wonderful people.

Over the years, as my musical entertainment business expanded, I performed an average of 10 jobs a week, more when special holiday parties were involved. I could never have done this without the advantages that an arrange keyboard provided. I quickly learned that the variety of onboard and third-party styles available from the older members of this and other forums, produced that variety that solo musicians with a single instrument, mainly a guitar, did not possess, thus there were fortunate to perform just one or two days a week at best. Yes, they were highly skilled musicians, but an arranger keyboard was not designed for them - it was designed with hacks like me in mind. I knew most chord progressions, both on the guitar and keyboard, but I was never professionally trained. I played the chords that I heard, and had a lot of difficulty reading sheet music. I guess it was good enough for my audiences, because they kept inviting me back, week after week, month after month, for more than 30 years, and the pay scale increased throughout that period.

Although health issues, pulmonary fibrosis and distal neuropathy forced me to retire just over three years ago, I still enjoy sitting down at my aged PSR-S950 and learning new songs.I only recorded about a dozen over the past year, mainly songs that Don Mason suggested that I try.

As for this forum not being very active, keep in mind that many of the old, and active, members have passed away. I arrived here looking for help shortly after the forum was created, I got to meet up with many forum members, Diki, Donny Pesce, Ed Shoemaker, Don Mason, Hank Bowman, Randy (saxman), Fran Carango, Uncle Dave, Bob Lee, Jimmy McKinney, Johnny Walker, Helmut Licht, BeBop, AJ, and many others. I learned something from each and every one of them, and considered all as mentors and good friends. Many of those in the list I posted above have passed away. They kept this forum alive and well for many, many years.

While younger musicians may not be attracted to arranger keyboards, they too will grow old, eventually, and I suspect, some will be purchasing an arranger keyboard, and a very small number of highly skilled musicians will take the time to explore this incredible, musical instrument, learn it's incredible features and make some beautiful music as they too slowly, but surely proceed to meet the Grim Reaper.

This was created by a member of another forum I am active on, using a Tyros 5. He also added the video from the movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWM_LhFlfQM&t=4s I sincerely believe that the arranger keyboard is here to stay. At least I hope it is.

This was created by my friend in Argentina, Walter and sung by my friend, Susie, in England. Walter is an incredible musician and Susie who is about the same age as myself has an incredible voice. Walter uses a Yamaha S-950, which he currently purchased to upgrade from his S-650. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HchNIZ3rV1g&t=4s

Enjoy,

Gary

I think most of it boils down to musical tastes. An arranger is an exceptional instrument for creating live backing for older genres of music, but to be quite honest, sucks at doing anything remotely modern. Music has moved wholeheartedly into the current taste of triggering clips and loops and arpeggiators, and the concept of the underlying chord harmony has largely gone out the window. To be quite honest, a proper chord recognition system is more a liability than an advantage when you listen to how modern music is composed!

The kids are desperately trying to sound different, and traditional harmony and chord progressions are all so used up that it’s difficult to go down that path without sounding derivative. Hence the move towards backing that doesn’t interpret your played notes and derives a traditional backing, but towards something that plays your trigger notes as is, allowing you far more dissonance and ambiguity.

The loop creation station has also been instrumental in the move towards more static chord and song structures, the nature of laying down a loop to play over pretty much has killed off the idea of more traditional verse, chorus, pre-chorus, bridge, intro and outro structure.

We’re fossils! And expecting much in the way of dinosaur evolution after the asteroid hit is simply a bit too optimistic, IMHO. 😂 We’ve reached as close to the zenith as these arrangers can be taken with little R&D budget available nowadays. But on the positive side, every last modern arranger is capable of extraordinary realism in the hands of the skilled, and conversely, won’t sound significantly better than a ten year old one in less skilled hands.

I think the way forward is to look at combining an arranger with a more contemporary type keyboard like a Krone, or a MODX etc., and trying to integrate the two. The odds of any manufacturer doing that for us in one keyboard is basically zero. Too much work for too little reward. Or look into software and something like a Mac mini or laptop.

But we’re pretty much at endgame with hardware. Sure, Yamaha and Korg will keep trotting out new models every few years (albeit at longer and longer intervals) but if anyone is thinking something radical is in the pipeline, dream on!

As I tried to point out when I rejoined this forum, we’re at a point where the only thing that’s going to make your MUSIC better is you. Not gear. You…. While it’s fun to natter on about the hardware, you want to sound better, start with your playing. Learn your chords properly. Learn your voicings properly. Learn to imitate horns and guitars properly. Learn to play organ with a swell pedal! Turn off the backing and try some proper two handed piano playing. Then crack the manual and finally figure out how to customize your sounds, your backing, your effects etc..

Any of those will help you sound better. Without them, it’s unlikely the next gen arranger will. Tough to take, but the truth. Spending 90% of your time fixating on something that might at best make a 10% improvement isn’t efficient. Time on what you are actually PLAYING makes the difference. Trust me, the machine is already good enough. Until you are playing better than it is, it’s good enough!

In the end, what’s an arranger for? To give you something to fiddle with, or to make MUSIC..? If it’s to make music, shouldn’t that be what we discuss here? 🎹😎

Gary's post sums up how I feel about this.
Young guys will not always be young and young music will change too.
I agree with Diki's view that practise would vastly improve our performance but after saying that the board is not so important, he thinks that buying a ModX would be a good idea. I tthink that this is harking back to professionals looking down their nose at arranger boards.
A good arranger in the hands of a competent amateur can create amazing music and many, like myself, would not be seen dead playing most "modern music".
I have entertained for many years and sent most of my audiences home happy after a good night out and received more than a little praise so a workstation is neither needed or necessary.
Evenings at home can be whatever I wish with a bit of slow swing, catchy latin or romantic movie music.
I am 82 but if Yamaha introduce a Genos 2 or Korg make a style module, I will buy them and enjoy new sounds, new styles or whatever they offer.
In my view, arrangers will be alive as long as I am.

To clarify, I think adding a modern workstation is really only a good move if you ARE trying to cover or create the more modern musics. The arranger we have is quite honestly all we need to cover older genres.

As to a Genos2 or the rumored PA5X or whatever else is coming down the pike, for me at least, I have strong doubts they will add anything that significantly pushes the arranger paradigm forward. And they will be expensive…

Yes, you are going to see a FEW modern WS features added, but nothing like the leap forward for modern music you would get if you simply bought a far less expensive modern WS and added it to your currently more than capable arranger. As I said, we are deep into the realm of diminishing returns….

I’ve never been one for jumping on every new model as they come out. I find that waiting two or three generations, or at least a decade, gives me a feeling that what I spent my hard earned cash on truly IS a huge leap forward rather than just the same ol’, same ol’ with a few new sounds and styles (not nearly as many as we would wish!).

Truth is, using the sampler section of your arranger (when it has one) gets you those new sounds at a fraction of the price, and some work on translated styles, MIDI files and legacy styles assembling new combinations of parts to make new styles gets you fresh backing to play with. So what are you shelling out thousands for? There hasn’t honestly been a significant change to the basic arranger system for decades. You get three or four intros and endings, four variations, four fills. Whoop te doo! Had that twenty years ago!

Enjoy your $5000 Genos2 or whatever else comes out, but honestly, do you think you spent that much and got something you couldn’t get with a bit of work on your current arranger?

IF...you were an accomplished pianist that had bought a great sounding, great playing piano 30 years ago, you would have spent 30 years without ever having experieced the curse of 'gear lust'. You'd also be scratching your head and saying, "What's an Arranger?".

chas

You would have spent 30 years wishing you had your home piano at whatever ragged out club piano you were playing! 😂

Or your great sounding, great playing piano you bought 30 years ago would be sounding like dog doo and playing like hell because you took it on the road with you (and your four roadies!) 🤣

The thread started off simply discussing Korg vs Yamaha styles.
I am not a pianist, accomplished or otherwise so a great sounding piano would do little for me.
In my younger days, raising a family, I didn't have much money to splash out on keyboards and made do with the best I could manage.
After a lot of years working and growing older, I am now more comfortable and, due to my health, I know I don't have a lot of time to have fun so why is "gear lust" so frowned upon?
I know guys who buy a new car twice as often as I buy a keyboard but that's how they like to spend their cash - no problem to me.
I'm sure you guys don't make your cars, sofa's etc last for ever so what's the difference.
Just arranger bashing time again.
The forum is an ARRANGER forum and not for pro's only.

...and there it is; the last-ditch, fall-back argument whenever a painful truth emerges..."The forum is an ARRANGER forum".

Regarding getting old, they always say "the first thing to go is ....." but more and more I'm beginning to think the first thing to go is a sense of humor. Seems like if you're an Arranger enthusiast (and old), there is zero tolerance for ANYTHING perceived as negative, even if it's obviously said in humor. I'm guessing the kids in your neighborhood have learned to stay off your lawn. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world where everything is to your liking. BALANCE is good. Everything on this earth has SOME bad attributes and you probably shouldn't work yourself into a frenzy if someone points one out. The word for today...CHILL.

chas (who doesn't love ANY inanimate object enough to make me hate another human being....well maybe a B3 ).

chas

I am perfectly chilled because, as you admit, this is an "ARRANGER" forum and we were simply discussing Korg & Yamaha styles.
There is a name for ego's who jump into a conversation and change it to a discussion of something else and irrespective of anyone's sense of humour, that's what's happening here.
Anything to say about the subject of the thread "STYLES"?
I also love B3's too

Virtually all threads in forums (Not just SZ) morph over time so hardly surprising this thread is not exactly how it started (It’s just the same when people have face to face discussions).
In this case you mentioned about a separate style player module which is what first started the variance, so you can’t really blame anybody else.
Most on here are oldies, which in the scheme of things means diddly squat.

Bill

We were discussing Styles, and in particular, Korg & Yamaha styles.
I mentioned a midi style player, which would not be an arranger.
The thread morphed because guys with egos decided to start jumping on arrangers again.
The name for people who just want to take someone down and cause unpleasantness is troll and there are some on here.
What I like to play and what I spend my money on is down to me so they need to butt out and pursue their own interests.
I only mentioned my age in reference to say that I didn't always have new keyboards so if I want one mow, that's my choice.
You are also guilty of arranger denigration too.
What about Korg vs Yamaha styles without any bullshit?

Blaming others for a variance in the thread (That is not exactly what the OP originally started) that you created, is unbecoming.

Bill

What about Korg vs Yamaha styles.
Isn't that what we came on here to consider.
Who's varying the thread?

Diki, if you can afford four roadies, you must be making pretty good money with that puppy-poo sounding sucker .

chas

All that we are saying here is acceptable ---
Just keep in mind that they are only opinions.

When I was playing out, I embraced my Korg Pa4x and the styles.

Now that I am a home player, I have a Yamaha Sx900, with it’s many styles. I changed my direction, that my needs changed.

So which styles are better --- Korg or Yamaha? Depends on who is posting.

IMO, John C.

I have about 50,000 third-party Yamaha styles, many of which are song specific, therefore, never worried about being repetitive and using the same style for other songs. It took me a decade to accumulate these styles, some of which were duplicates that had been renamed, and I auditioned each and every one of them to determine their quality and variation changes, and the OTS settings, all of which are important factors for entertainers and musicians alike.

Over the many decades I have been playing music, beginning with an old upright piano, I never considered myself a musician - just a player that could sing pretty good. When I began entertaining others while playing various instruments, at age 16, I still did not consider myself a pro, though I was being paid to play and sing.

Having owned at least one or more of all the other top brands, Korg, Roland, Tecnics, etc..., I stuck with Yamaha, mainly because of the versatility and the style selection, which is immense. Every day, on the PSR-Tutorial site, someone requests a style for a specific song. 99% or the requests are filled, often within an hour. Granted, most of the song specific styles are for songs in the 90s and early 2000s, however, there are a lot of newer style requests that are also posted.

A few members on another forum I frequent, take their Yamaha arranger keyboards to a whole new level, creating incredible movie tracks that are beyond description. These individuals have taken the time to explore most, if not all, of the incredible features of these fantastic instruments and produced some of the most amazing music I've ever heard.

Yes, this is an Arranger Keyboard Forum, a place where individual arranger keyboard players come to learn more about their keyboard's features and inner workings. Over the years, I have done my best to help those in need of specific information and solve some of the problems from a technical aspect. Yeah, I can play, I used to be able to sing pretty damned good, and I can read music, though not enough to hinder my playing.

If you want to download some of my Yamaha style files, you can do so at My USB Drive These are the styles that I keep on the USB drive of my PSR-S950 and link to my Music Finder Directory and registrations. They will work in any Yamaha Arranger Keyboard, though some of the voices may be substituted. These voices can be changed, though, using the keyboard's onboard style creator program.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Gary

Here's a classic example of what an arranger keyboard is capable of in the hands of someone that has taken time to explore the inner workings and features. My friend Christian, in France just posted this:

Hello everyone,

Off to Sicily...
Today I present to you the soundtrack of the film "The Sicilian Clan", music that was composed by Ennio Morricone.
"Le Clan des Siciliens" is a French detective film directed by Henri Verneuil and released in 1969.
The plot: Vittorio Malanese, leader of the Sicilian clan, organizes the escape of the mobster Roger Sartet to help him carry out a daring hold-up.

I made this recording in multi-track using an Ethereal intro and then the Sirtaki style.

The instrument you hear added is a Jew's Harp.
I made an audio sample with AUDACITY software and transformed it into an audio pad.




Gary

This is another classic example of creativity using a PA1000. Bring Him Home was performed by a friend on another site, Andy Carvill. Yes, he used a lowly arranger keyboard to produce this masterpiece. He is incredibly talented, to say the very least.

Cheers,

Gary

So Gary, I don't know how good you are playing an arranger but you're DAMMED GOOD at tooting your own horn .

1. Do all these foreign players that you present KNOW that they're your friends.

2. In all these 'wonderful' arrangements, what makes them wonderful, the arranger keyboard or THE PLAYER? (If it's the keyboard, then why don't we all sound like that?).

3. Were these performances done in arranger mode (auto-play) or were most of the parts played by the musicians that produced them?

In the last 30+ years, I have owned at least seven different arranger keyboards and/or modules, so obviously I don't hate arrangers. I consider myself a mediocre jazz organist (Hammond only) and have only played organ in professional venues. I have to admit that my interest in arrangers has more to do with technology than with music production. I'm an engineer by training and a geek by nature so naturally when combined with my strong interest in and affinity for music, I would gravitate towards arranger keyboards, if only out of curiousity. Over the years, my interest in arranger keyboards has diminished considerably and that is because I haven't seen anything truly new or innovative (in an earth-shattering way) since the Tyros II/PA1x era. Better quality sounds, questionably better styles, and a few new whiz/bang navigational features; not enough to pique my technical curiousity (at least not 3-5000.00 worth). Fact is, I haven't turned on any of my arrangers for a couple of years now except the BK7m which I use (strictly as a very good and convenient drum machine) for practice and rehearsal. On the other hand, I play my clonewheel (Legend) and cloneRhodes (Crummar SEVEN) every single day. Others here have started to duplicate my actions with their digital pianos. Hey, whatever gets your juices going. If that's an arranger, so be it, HOWEVER, IN MY OPINION, one will never get the same level of satisfaction playing an arranger (with style backing) as one would playing an acoustic instrument such as a piano or guitar, that he/she has mastered. Again, just my opinion (as in, 'valid only for me').

chas

You

Chas, these folks call me their friends, and many have turned to me for technical assistance over the many years I have known, though it be only over the Internet and the various forums. A few, however, I have talked with over the telephone, which at times was quite difficult due to my lack of knowing their native languages, but we managed to communicate.

As to what makes their arrangements wonderful, IMO, is the incredible creativity they bring forward to produce these beautiful sounding musical masterpieces. Yes, often they are using onboard styles, free-play styles, such as the Etheral Movie style and many others available from Yamaha vast collections. I have only used a few of these styles personally, but I know of several forum members that produced incredible arrangements using them, and working in combination of the variations and OTS setting voices. These are no drums or bass with these styles, therefore, you must rely on your playing abilities and your creativity.

Having played the piano as a youngster, then switching to a 6-string acoustic and later to a Yamaha 12-string acoustic guitar, then adding an in throat hole pickup to the 12-string and a 100-watt Crate amp, I had a lot of fun, but what really got my creative juices flowing was being able to get into the heart of an arranger keyboard and explore all it's musical opportunities. Guess, in that respect, I also became a geek as well. I could not learn enough, and to this day, I still discover really neat things that you can do with an arranger keyboard that cannot be accomplished with any other instrument.

Additionally, just having fun playing was not enough for me. I truly enjoyed being on stage, playing as an OMB entertainer, to audiences varying from just a dozen or two at a small, living room party, to thousands at the Maryland State Fair Grounds in Timonium, Maryland where the state put on a senior event. To me, this was an exciting time in my life, I met so many wonderful individuals, and became good friends with many of the other talented, professional, musicians that performed there as well. Unfortunately, at age 81, I attended many of their funerals as one by one most have passed away. Fortunately, the few of us that are still alive keep in touch on a weekly basis and have done so for decades.

I still sit at the arranger a couple hours a week, just to try out different, new features I had not discovered over these many years. And, as I have stated many, many times, from what I have seen, only a few individuals have taken the time explore the many features and options available to them in their arrangers.

All the best,

Gary

Gary, you're a lucky man to still have long-time friends that you still stay in contact with. One of the worst parts of getting/being old is loneliness, lack of social interaction, and the frequent depression that accompanies it. So often as we age, family and friends can become geographically distanced and that can easily lead to 'out of sight, out of mind'. My daughter lives in Delaware (home of the president you so dearly love ) and I only see her once, maybe twice a year. My son, on the other hand, lives in the neighboring county and I see him and my grandkids at least once a week. Physical distance does make a difference. Of course things like ZOOM has softened that blow somewhat (I just had a 'Virtual' meeting with my local Democratic party (your favorite....just kidding - remember, humor, humor, humor) this morning. I guess that's one good thing (video calling/conferencing) that came out of this horrible pandemic.

Glad you're still enjoying your arranger, whether musically or technically. It keeps the mind sharp and helps drown out some of the other miseries that accompany old age. According to my Alexa, the average lifespan (in America) for a man is 75.1 years, so you've already beaten the system. Me, I look at it as bonus years (for being so sweet and kind ). I'm also trying to get all the battery life (10 1/2 yrs. left) out of my Pacemaker, especially since I've pre-paid for it . Have a good day Ol' Fart (your words, not mine ).

chas

Gary,
Enjoyed listening to both your friends offerings, Le Clan & Bring him home. Both very well done and I already know how good an arranger can sound. Movie & Show music are among my favourites so thanks for posting those.
Very generous of you to offer your styles too - Don't have time at the moment but will probably look in there sometime soon.
Thanks again,
Anthony

Thank you Gary. I would rate you as number 1 true contributor ( and yamaha arranger technical details/ styles wizard / OMB entrepreneurship / self marketing/ solo OMB singer experience on different crowds ) of the forum since many years ago. Thank you for your sharing knowledge and resources without any ego or drama like some. We really appreciate what you have done here throughout the years.

UD and Scott Y are also appreciated as well ( for sharing info when they were active),

Thanks guys. I am so happy I can still contribute to this forum and have beaten the odds of longevity predictions, both of Alexa and my doctors. This has been a very difficult day for me, not only in taking care of Carol, but myself. My lung condition continues to worsen and this morning when I got out of bed, I was gasping for every breath. Had to take a couple puffs of rescue inhaler in order to get dressed and walk to the kitchen.

All the best, my friends,

Gary (the old fart!)

I might just remind everybody that yes, this IS an arranger forum…

But it is not ‘I can barely play, so I use an arranger’ forum. The best thing about arrangers is that they can be used in a myriad ways, by players of a wide range of skill levels. As such, even if you have no use for more advanced features, sounds or discussion about improving your playing skills, you don’t have the right to demand that threads only discuss what YOU want to hear about, in a way that YOU want them discussed.

If a discussion strays off into country you aren’t interested in, too advanced, whatever, you are welcome to move on to another thread. Or bring the discussion back to what you want to talk about. Personally, I think the hoary ‘Yamaha vs. Korg vs. whoever’ is tired and done to death, whether it’s about sounds, or styles, or workflow. There are good and bad in them all, and discussing a legacy direction when modern models don’t have the same issues so much (Korg have largely got past the whole ‘jumpy fills and unrelated variations’ thing) just seems such a retread. Not to mention, as has been pointed out, what works for one player may be utterly wrong for another.

These brand arguments generally devolve down to ‘I like what I’ve got’, which is awesome… but hardly productive.

So, let’s just remember… this forum is not just for skilled players (whether pro or not). And neither is it for one finger chord amateurs who can barely play. It’s for ALL of us!

Great post, Diki. Sadly, it's unlikely you're ever going to get anyone over 70 to change their position on ANYTHING.

You may have noticed; with very few exceptions, subjects that deal only with arranger issues usually only produce 3-4 posts (sometimes less) before disappearing into the mist, while those that accidently or on purpose, veer off course, oft times gain new life. That's usually because the topic deviation is usually more interesting than the original topic. It's also because most of the arranger posts have been done a dozen times before and literally discussed to death. With no new product on the market, there just isn't much to discuss that has not already been discussed to death. This also proves that the forum is more about technology (and social interaction) than about music. Nothing wrong with that, in fact, it's perfectly natural in a population where untrained amateurs far outnumber trained professionals. As you and others have noted in the past, there is rarely a post or topic about things like chord structure, approaches to transitions, modulations, odd meters (5/4, etc), and most of all ARRANGEMENTS ie. how to best assemble the parts (styles) that we paid so dearly for. What I've noticed is that, in many cases, the thing that mars an arranger performance is TASTE; knowing what sounds good and what doesn't. Just because you CAN mix practically any song with any style in an arranger doesn't mean that you should. However, these things are never mentioned in forum critiques of posted performances. All we ever hear are superficial 'attaboys' so as not to embarrass or discourage the performer. Heck, Pro's get critiqued all the time; it's the difference in selling 200 records or 2,000,000. Trust me, that's a critique .

Sorry for being so long-winded. My initial intent was just to say "Great post, Diki", but then I got carried away .

chas

I think people should enjoy what they have and learn to utilise what they have, you’ve spent ‘000s of pounds on an arranger and your spoiled for choice with styles and sounds etc. It’s like an artist being given a palette of colours but it’s learning to mix the colours in order to get the colours you want.
During Covid lockdowns I’m sure arranger keyboard would have been a life saver for many.

I’m sure with every make of arrangers you get styles the are / are not to your personal taste. But even a bad style can possibly be tweaked into something that’s possibly useable.

Anyhow enjoy music and whatever makes you happy.

I agree with this big time. I tend to look at an arranger as a huge pallet of colors, but it isn’t a picture. That’s still up to you..!

All I’ve been trying to point out is that work on your brush technique will pay bigger dividends than changing a tube of paint. Don’t paint yourself into a corner… 😂

And, to bring the thread back to perhaps where it began, one of the most useful OS techniques you can learn is how to quickly edit styles to change sounds, drum kits, effects and velocities. If you’re dismayed at how complex and song specific so many modern styles have got, go back to earlier styles, and simply do the work to edit them to utilize the best, latest greatest sounds you have (which they don’t address, they are likely triggering the legacy sounds included with your arranger for compatibility), the latest effects (most legacy styles were done on arrangers that couldn’t use insert effects on style parts) and tweak the velocities so the latest velocity-switched sounds transition at the right point. Older arrangers, with no velocity layers, it didn’t matter if the track was high velocity, low volume, or low velocity high volume… vel-switched sounds and kits, it’s critical…

Discussing one brand over another don’t get nothing DONE… If you think modern styles are too busy, but legacy styles sounds dated, best of luck waiting until Yamaha or Korg do something about it! It’s up to you. Roll up your sleeves, listen to some older styles and see what you can turn them into simply by messing with the sounds and effects they address. It is, in the big picture, quite possibly the least amount of work for the most payoff of anything you can do with an arranger..!

Creating a style from scratch takes skill and patience and years of experience. But honestly, crack the manual and figure out the header editor system, you can make older, simpler, easier to use styles sound as good as the new ones…

Get painting! 🎹😎

I like this analogy and as any artist will tell you it's all about 'miles on the brush'!

I agree, Kerry, and this old brush has so many miles on it that it is damned near worn out what remains of the bristle.

All the best,

Gary

Winding the clock back to when styles used to have 2 variations and no or very limited effects. We are really spoiled for choice. Are there any particular styles that stood out from old arrangers that you’ve owned?

Some of the rock styles were really good, and the legacy voices, such as the Growl Sax, and Steel Guitar, were outstanding. On the old PSR-5700, which had some incredible styles and the best grand piano voice and vibes that Yamaha ever created. It was limited to just 35 onboard styles if I recall, and about the same number of voices, most of which were very good. It was a beast to haul around, tipping the scales at 51 pounds and had a built-in 50-watt amp that sounded fantastic for living room parties.

Gary

Not sure about Yamaha, but one of the things I’ve always liked about Roland’s was, they didn’t change their style format ever… or at least as long as I’ve used them, starting with an RA90. If a Roland could save a style, if it wasn’t burned into ROM with no backup options at all, you can still load that style into a modern Roland and it plays!

Mind you, there’s a fair bit of nostalgia looking back at the early days of arrangers. It’s a lot easier to remember the few styles that DID work out perfectly (often not remembering the myriad that didn’t!) and it’s convenient to forget about how we used to have to reshape our repertoires to concentrate on songs the styles did well and not perform the songs that they didn’t!

One of the things I really like to do is turn off all style parts other than drums, bass and rhythm guitar. Does the style now sound too busy? Too song specific? Surprisingly, often the answer is no. We sometimes forget that we now have two or more extra Parts than we used to in the arranger’s early years. Strip even modern styles down to the early levels of complexity, all of a sudden there’s a ton more room to breathe, to play, to sing or dance!

HI Diki

I have never come across a keyboard/organ built from the 90s on; that the style couldn’t be played on later instruments, playing later styles on earlier models is another matter though.
Simplifying a style is always good but, I have found that if you take more than 2 voices (Or sometimes even 1) from the style, the style completely falls apart and is pretty much unusable. (This is particularly noticeable with Yamaha styles)

Bill

I regularly strip out all but bass drums and rhythm guitar, most styles sound fine. Mind you, this depends on how well you can add back enough to give the style some flavor…

In a way, I tend to approach this as I would have playing in a four piece band. You got a drummer, a bassist and a guitarist who can only play one thing. You need a Rhodes comp and a horn section, that’s all you…. You need a piano and some strings, ditto.

Until the advent of SMF’s or arrangers, that’s how EVERYBODY did it! You figured out how to condense the many parts in a recorded arrangement into something two hands could play and still capture the flavor of the original. Not one hand. Two…

That’s why I’m a big fan of the chord sequencer on songs with a repeating structure. Regular style play forces your left hand into doing something that you wouldn’t in a real band. Everybody already knows the chords (except the drummer! 😂). Your left hand can play string lines, or clavinet chops or whatever, without having to play every chord on the beat.

I guess if you want to still drive the bus one handed, strip the style to the rhythm guitar and the piano comp in addition to the bass and drums, you can do the one handed thing. But an awful lot of standard keyboard playing technique is a two handed thing, from regular piano playing to rhythmic chopping between hands, to lead sound bending technique etc.. To be quite honest, it’s why I don’t use styles a whole lot, live. Having to tie up over half of my abilities to input a dumb chord so the arranger can have all the fun playing the actual parts just seemed such a waste!

I like playing!

All I can suggest is, use the chord sequencer, or make an SMF of the style so the chords are already in there, then strip out as much as possible. For starters, you get the fun of actually playing, but also, you can play something different every time and get away from the style’s intrinsic repetition.

The thing is, probably most of us here are old enough to remember playing back before machines could do it all for us. Be honest…. Didn’t you have more fun back then? 🎹😎

But yes, I guess you pull a style apart, strip it down, it might not always be what YOU’D play, but it’s usually enough.