I found this video very interesting and educational. A wealth of info, much of which could be applies to arranger performances. Really worth the look for a number of reasons. I'd love to hear some comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZXUPuiC9Eo&ab_channel=RickBeato

chas

Excellent video giving a plethora of information that involves many of us to varying degrees. I will go back over the video and comment later.

Bernie

I had no idea of the extent of the use of backing tracks. I know it is because of my age because the majority of the bands started using them from the late nineties on. Many of my peers consider a backing track cheating. Personally, I think it depends on the extent of automation versus actual playing or singing, and what parts are not played by the musician. As an example, when I see lip syncing or, someone pretending to play, my estimation of him or her goes down the drain. Yet, when I play with an arranger, it seems acceptable because everyone knows one person can't sound like a full and or orchestra without some outside help. Yes, the purists even rail against this. The other question about tracks is how they are made. Is Karaoke taboo, but pre-recorded parts later mixed into the master acceptable, and by whom?

We older musos have spent many years perfecting our trade, and self satisfaction or ego enters into the equation. We see young wannabe's coming out with full backing while contributing some minor part themselves, and feeling it isn't fair. Welcome to the age of automation. As far as we are concerned, playing an arranger, we wonder if the audience even appreciates our own artistry, and think we are playing a jukebox.

Back in the day, 50 or 60 years ago, I was the first in Palm Beach County to play a B3 with a Rythm Ace(drum machine), and I was a hit; no more. I guess we either follow today's trend toward backing tracks or play to small groups of seniors.

In any event, we will always have the self satisfaction of knowing what we accomplished through the years, whether the kids appreciate it or not.

Gee Bernie, very inciteful. You DO have a way of articulating the thoughts of most musicians in our age group AND YOUNGER. I'm glad you took the time to plow through that video. Like you, I wasn't aware of what went on behind the scenes in both live and studio productions, especially the use of pre-recorded audio tracks. I'm hoping others will also view this, if only for the educational value. There is a lot in there that could also relate to the arranger scene. For one thing, I'll look at current musical productions with a new sense on curiosity.

chas

Nice video.

I like the WHO. It was obvious they had pre recorded tracks for songs like "won't get fooled again" & vocal tracks for "Who are you".

If I go to a concert, the performance is what matters. Backing tracks don't bother me.

I'm not into Hip Hop. But Rap artist use tracks all the time.

Good points bernie. And good video Chas, I've watched it before. I've gone thru the same progression of drum machine to arranger. I feel if your doing all you can live IE:Singing and playing the keyboard what's wrong with filling the song in with a track. It's like I'm playing with a band. I use about 80% edited Styles on my BK9 and because of the wonderful ability of being able to put jump markers into SMF's I also use those, again very edited. The jump markers give me the ability to extend a song if necessary. That was the main drawback of me using them in the past. It's when it gets to the point of lip syncing or faking playing that I don't like it.

At NAMM a couple years ago. Keith Emerson tribute. TARKUS

Jordan Rudess is very well known. He is keyboardist for Dream Theater

Listen to the backing tracks. Jordan doesn't care about any one's opinion'

Warning ! This is very progressive rock


https://youtu.be/vmF0wqBHyVY

I think the dividing line comes at the point where people come to a show to see a band, have paid full price for a ticket, and the band uses tracks to perform music that could be performed fully live with the addition of maybe an extra keyboard player or two, or a keyboard player and an electronic/acoustic percussionist. To me, that’s fraud, pure and simple. Tracks are being used to save money for the promoter and band, and most people have gone to the show expecting to hear the live band.

There’s a massive divide between that and what most of us do (if we perform live at all). People are showing up to eat a meal, or grab a few drinks and try to dance with a pretty girl (or their wife!), there is seldom a cover and the venue neither has room nor budget for a 4 piece, let alone one with a horn section and percussion etc.. No one is being defrauded, no one shows up expecting a full band, certainly no one shows up because we are a big name and they want to hear us live…

Perhaps the argument could have been made back in the late 80’s and early 90’s as sequencing and arrangers first arrived on the scene and some venues that had trios and quartets for dining and disco dancing started to cut back. In fact, I recall many about it then! But that ship has long sailed, and the solo or duo with backing has become a staple for smaller venues.

But Rick’s video is about an altogether different thing, with no relevance to us at all.

As to the whole ‘audio/SMF vs arranger’ thing too many agonize about, the truth is, we’re the only people that care. The audience couldn’t care less. The meal or that dancing partner is what they care about, as it should (remember, that’s what they came to do!). Which means of automatic backing you use is completely your choice and yours alone. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and most of each of their weaknesses are gradually being addressed by technology.

Arrangers are sounding closer and closer to live tracks, and live tracks are getting more and more flexibility about structure, key and tempo, and flow between songs (if you use the tools provided!). So which ones you use are of concern only to you.

However… I believe very strongly in NEVER giving your audience the opportunity to think that you aren’t playing at all. Their attention is always focused on the lead solos and your piano playing, and allowing the technology to do those for you while you just hold down a chord is inviting disbelief for when you actually ARE really playing..! Once lost, that audience trust is hard to reestablish. And yes, admittedly, as I said before, a whole lot of them aren’t paying any attention at all, but some are. And so are YOU! I mean, why are you here with a keyboard if standing behind a DJ deck would do the same job?

Because you want to PLAY…

So, lay the ‘audio/SMF vs. arranger’ debate finally to rest, it’s dead and buried. Use what gives YOU the most enjoyment and showcases what you do best to your audience, and sleep soundly that night (tinnitus permitting!). You’re the only one that cares.

But a major band using tracks? If I know in advance that’s what’s on the menu, I’ll stay home and listen to their tracks on my stereo and save a fortune. I don’t mind if the live performance sounds different to the CD, in fact that’s part of the reason I want to see them, to see how great musicianship pulls off great music with smaller resources. If they feel that they can’t impress their crowd without a ton of studio magic carried around on a laptop, that reflects poorly on both them AND their crowd.

Last point… I make an exception for trade shows, product demonstrations etc. I didn’t pay good money to see the band, I came to see the gear and how it was used. But a concert? I’m not paying today’s exorbitant seat prices to listen to a CD with a band on top!

Good points, Diki

Wow! This misses the whole point of why I posted this. I posted this as a historical and educational piece, NOT, REPEAT, NOT to forment a DEBATE, especially a debate about something that had/has NOTHING to do with the posted video. Sorry if I seem a little annoyed but then again I guess I shouldn't have asked for comments (which I thought was different from a debate, especially a debate over a point no one was trying to make in the first place).

Oh, and sorry Bernie, they may be good points, just not germane to the spirit and intent of this post.

chas

Well, Chas, it’s throwing red meat at a wolf if you think that a discussion (and video) squarely aimed at music that a) none of us listen to and b) has nothing to do with how any of us perform isn’t going to spill over to include what we actually do!

To be honest, your words ‘much of which could be applies to arranger performances’ is a good case for it being you that missed the point of the video. Rick Beato is a studio pro, hasn’t got jack to do with what we do, and pretty much aims his remarks at a market segment none of us have anything to do with, and if we ever did, it was long before tracks became prevalent.

Sure, you want a discussion about pro touring bands using tracks, have at it. But how were you expecting this to go once you went ‘much of which could be applies to arranger performances’?

I see absolutely no difference between a signed pro touring band using audio tracks, or a sequencer or an arranger. If it walks like a duck….

But having brought up that this video has any relevance for arranger players, perhaps it needs clarifying exactly how? Because I see no connection whatsoever.

Diki, I'm not going to spar with you. I posted a video that everyone but you thought was interesting and educational and historical. But of course, as usual, you just couldn't resist making a simple video post something else. You seem obsessed with showing the rest of us what a superior intellect you are and of course, how you're never wrong about anything. Whatever the situation, no matter how innocent, you always seem to be able to make it into a controversy. I've never once ever heard you say, "you know what, maybe you're right", and frankly, I never expect to. For the person who always has to be right, humility is not their vocabulary. And, IN MY OPINION, this is precisely the type of personality who should NEVER be in charge of anything. We've seen how that turns out.

I think the unrelenting attack on the Ketron Event even before any detailed specifications had been released is a good example of creating controversy where none existed, and especially by someone who, by their own admission, had absolutely no intention of purchasing one. We suffered through a ten+ year crusade about the chord sequencer, and yet when they did appear on other manufacturer's boards with even better implementation than the Roland's, I have yet to see or hear anyone (at least in our group) use it. Much ado about nothing? or just a feature that was important to you but of limited interest to the rest of the arranger community.

Look, we all know you're a smart guy. You don't have to prove it in every post. It can get really annoying (at least to me). Hey, no hard feelings but you're not the only one with a working brain. I mean, we actually agree on most things (socially, politically, and musically), it's just how that knowledge/wisdom is imparted. I sincerely hope other members don't see this as a 'war' where they have to choose sides. Sadly, that seems to be the way things are these days. Hope that changes soon.

chas

I think Chas and Diki make some really good posts on this forum and I understand both points of view but I also think Diki's post above has some very good comments within. Posters don't have to adhere to what the OP had in mind... our minds wander and we post what comes to mind. If arranger thoughts come to mind, well, it's an arranger forum, it's somewhat natural.

As for me, if I go to a concert of a famous band, I don't want them using tracks. Plenty of bands are good enough to pull off a live performance and slay us with their talent. If the song is a bit different from the recorded song, so be it. I understand "they sounded just like the record" but it might be interesting to hear another take! Ever been to a Dylan concert? Of course, he is the extreme... some of the songs might not come off so great but sometimes, they create an amazing, spontaneous rendition!

I’m still waiting to hear what the hell the video had with relation to us arranger players. You know, if offered with the specific words that it did have relevance…

I got no problem with what Rick Beato says about artists using tracks, and I think he’s pretty much on the money given the artists he refers to and the situations they use them in. But I still think that’s got nothing to do with us. I’d sure like to hear your thoughts about how it pertains to us, seeing as you say it does.

And sorry you don’t like being debated, Chas, but if you want to stick something out there and have no dissent, best of luck finding anywhere on the web that’s going to happen. To clear something up, I’m not in charge of ANYTHING, I’m just posting as any other member here. Don’t let the green tag fool you. I don’t edit anyone’s post, I’m not going to ban anyone, never have, never will. If we get something that turns nasty and personal, it will be referred to Kerry before anything permanent is done.

My only real ‘moderation’ duties here lie over at the Roland sub-forum (the only reason I came back after Roland-arranger.com closed its doors) and keeping an eye out for personal attacks and egregious language. So what has led you to believe I’m ‘in charge’ beats me.

But this isn’t an echo chamber, that’s what happened when the last batch of old timers left. They didn’t want to hear anything other than agreement. Do you find yourself in their midst now? I don’t recall that being your attitude at the time…

Here is a solution to this problem, blending the best of All worlds which is: TRACKS (Midi/Audio or both) + Actual Live Performance + The ability to control ALL in real time:-

https://youtu.be/r5pD_dmm1t0

That sounds pretty darn good, AJ

Bernie

Wow! Sounds great. Are there other lead instruments besides sax with this capability?

chas

Here you go:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_MbeQvpFU

Wow! Now I know I'm really old, especially when I can relate to everything Bernie posted. I was the first performer in this part of the country to use a Roland Programmable drum machine while playing my 12-string Yamaha guitar and singing. That was back in the early 1960s, when Carol and I first met. She thought I looked a lot like James Dean, and I did my best to live up to that reputation. Her mom thought I looked pretty snazzy in my Maryland State Police uniform, which put me on her good side.

Ironically, when I switched from the guitar and drum machine to the Yamaha PSR-500 arranger keyboard, at first, my audiences thought I was cheating, lip syncing and doing Karaoke. It was not until they discovered that it was me doing the playing and singing, no tracks or MP3s, that those dance floors filled and the crowd and I were essentially one. I guess that's why I enjoy Jimmy Buffett concerts - mistakes and all.

Back to the treadmill,

Gary

Did anyone notice, the sax solo wasn’t being played at all?

It’s pre-recorded licks that work with certain chord changes. Bit like how Band in a Box’s Soloist works. Only difference is, BIAB knows the changes you want in advance. I wonder how well this works if you start to do changes in less than standard places, etc.?

I can see how the repetitive nature of accompaniment is not a big deal when you’re putting something non-repetitive on top of it. It’s how arrangers have worked for decades. I am not so sure about using audio phrases as the actual lead though. Forget for the minute the technical challenges of getting this to work around non-rote changes and changes in non-standard places, but now the actual solo isn’t you playing at all…

This is rather what Gary is referring to when his audience thought he was not actually playing, that it was karaoke. But it really WAS him other than the backing.

At what point does it actually become what the audience may already think it is? For me, I think it comes when the lead isn’t played at all. And I think this is what Rick Beato is referencing. The minute you are trying to disguise that you aren’t playing what the audience thinks you are, you’re swimming some murky waters.

At what point does it become DJ-ing?

When you don't bring the keyboard!!!!!!
MEL

LOL…

So, you bring a keyboard, but you don’t play any leads (you use tracks). Are you using a keyboard to DJ, or are you playing? 😂

Very Interesting Chas,
Cheating to me would be a singer lip syncing, or guitarist pretending to play. If a backing track is used to fill out a performance, personally don’t see anything wrong with it.
Just my 2 cents worth as a non performer.

I agree, Rikki, with your statement, with the operative phrase being "to fill out your performance". I will use backing tracks, occasionally, for background support only. I play with an active left hand and right hand melody and/or sing. In contrast, I see performances by many groups where guitar, accordion, and keyboard players pretend to play, that any musician, especially, can spot. Last night, I was watching a show that included an accordion player running her hand up and down the keys with the bellows closed, or keyboard playing a difficult part with his hands barely moving. This blatant pretense makes me ill. I may as well try to ignore it, as everyone, it seems, is doing it. When I think of the countless hours of learning and practice true musicians, like ourselves, have invested, I begin to lose faith in society.

I totally agree, but just to let you know as an old accordian player, that the newer accordians don't have to be moving bellows to play. They use electronics and that all started with the cordovox sorry for the spelling.
MEL

As always, I see a difference of opinion when it comes to tracks (whether audio or SMF) and arranger use, but to be frank, I see little difference between the two. The degree of musical involvement it takes to play the correct chord (or whatever!) at roughly the right time with your left hand is pretty minimal (at least for decent players), but what is coming out of the arranger is still tracks… whether audio (Ketron) or SMF (the rest).

Sure, short tracks, and you are stringing them together, but tracks nonetheless.

As I see it, the difference between DJ-ing and actually PLAYING comes from what you actually play, what the audience hears YOU (not the arranger) playing, from your singing (if you sing) from what they can actually SEE you doing (it’s not just musicians that can tell when someone’s hands have nothing to do with what they can hear!).

But more and more these days, I see arrangers designed more for DJ’s than musicians. Whole features designed specifically to allow you to input your one finger chord and then the arranger does everything else, including the solos. And I have to ask myself, who are these designed for? Apparently, someone who wants to DJ, but is too old to want to stand behind a table with the usual collection of DJ tools, CD decks, pad bank triggers (like Maschine) etc. and actually DJ!

Is this the future of arrangers? I sincerely hope not..! 🎹

The main reason I do NOT use backing tracks is that I, personally, feel that I do not have control of everything. I need to be able to string a song out when necessary, or shorten it. I want to be able to improvise that right hand melody, while at the same time mess with the volume of the additional left hand instrument, such as a choir or strings, plus kick in with some neat multipads when I feel I need just a little extra omph added to a song while I'm singing. I want the ability to go out into left field with any song that I perform, use different chords than the original, etc..., things that would stir the interest of various audiences and keep them actively involved. I really don't care if you play with a single finger or your toes, just as long as you select the correct chords and keep perfect time. Yep, I want to be in control of everything that takes place musically.

All the best,

Gary

"As I see it, the difference between DJ-ing and actually PLAYING comes from what you actually play, what the audience hears YOU (not the arranger) playing, from your singing (if you sing) from what they can actually SEE you doing (it’s not just musicians that can tell when someone’s hands have nothing to do with what they can hear!)" .quote from Diki


"What you actually play"
100% agreed, but that's the point. Accomp is one thing, but miming or passing off the melody line as yours when in fact you are are not really playing at all is what gripes me.

DITTO!

Backing Tracks.
1-No matter how many times you play them they do not change.
2-I cannot invent or doing what I am feeling—I must follow.
3-They are good for a sing-a-long.
4-The more I do, the less it sounds like a keyboard.

I met Backing tracks when an OMB played at my wife’s place of employment. He faked playing the piano --- he strummed the guitar, but the hand position did not match the song

BUT! When he played the lines dances, he ran to the dance floor danced with them. They loved him.
What a price to pay to succeed.

Keep in mind, these are my opinions, John C.

These are some pretty old fashioned attitudes to backing tracks…

Yes 10-15 years ago, you’d be right. But since then there are a multitude of ways to play backing tracks that allow you to freely change the structure on the fly, and allow you as much (if not more) control over which tracks play. There are plenty of laptop and tablet programs that allow structure, pitch and tempo manipulation of multitrack audio backing in real-time, often more easily than an arranger’s track controls. And, as we see with the Event and PA5x arrangers, similar control without even needing a laptop/tablet.

The days of there being any appreciable difference between audio and arrangers have passed us by…

The thing for me is, I’d rather give up a little bit of control over the backing and gain FULL control over both hands without tasking one to rote repetition of the chords (and a bunch of button pushing) when it could be doing so much more. If the goal is to convince an audience that we actually ARE playing, shouldn’t they see both hands playing fully?

The sight of an arranger player with their arms folded while the fully orchestrated intro plays (after they hit one note to define the key) and then their left hand plays maybe one chord (or one note!) every bar or so and presses the occasional button is quite possibly the reason they get little respect, if you ask me. Every other keyboard player an audience goes to see has both hands fully occupied (if they’re any good) and there’s a visual connection between what their hands are doing and the music the audience hears.

Let’s be honest here… if any of us had the opportunity to play with a live rhythm section, would we be happy playing as little as we do running an arranger the old school way? Would we expect it to impress our fellow musicians? Or the audience?

The technology now exists for us to play with tracks OR arranger styles and still fully use both hands to create an individual expression every time. Tracks can have markers and mix presets, styles can have chord sequences preprepared (but overrideable) and foot controls can operate most commonly used buttons like Variation and fill selection, breaks, stops etc..

Embrace the new technology rather than get mired in out of date restrictions, and it’s possible to finally achieve the goal that arrangers promised decades ago…

A backing band that follows what you want them to do, but with zero compromise in what YOU want to play, and how you want to play it!

I for one am SO tired of listening to live arranger demos and thinking ‘That’s nice, but it would have been so much better if they could have used both hands to play properly…’ whether it’s full two handed piano playing, solos fully utilizing the bender or two handed syncopation etc.. You know, all the tools that a conventional keyboard player takes for granted, but the arranger player is denied because of all that damn LH chord input and button pushing!

Whether it’s tracks or styles, there aren’t any excuses any more. Your band awaits… 🎹😎

Spot on Bernie

I’ll tell you a few other advantages of tracks…

You get basslines that move intelligently TOWARDS the next chord, because they know what they are, not jump to the next chord because they have no clue what the next one will be until you play it!

You get musical voice leading between chords, for the same reason. Parts that don’t jump around, but play the closest inversion to what was just played.

You get drummers that don’t repeat the same fill every time throughout the song.

You get far more than four basic grooves per song.

You get no restrictions on how many or what type of effects each individual track has. No worrying about if you have enough insert effects to put that tremolo and slap back on the guitar amp and still enough left over for the phaser on the Rhodes and a good Leslie on the B3 and a compressor on the overheads of the drum kit.

You generally get guitar tracks played by real guitarists.

And, after getting enough different multitrack backing tracks (all referenced to a click), you have a HUGE library of drum grooves, percussion grooves and live guitar grooves that are easy enough to splice, dice and reuse any way you feel like.

Tired of a song the same way every time? Fly in a different song’s drums or percussion. Play a different bassline. Replace out the guitars using a guitar loop VSTi or your arranger’s guitar mode. It will all lock together because the audio is clicked in the first place.

Tracks only spoon feed you if you let them… 🎹😋

Hi,
haven’t kept up with what advancements Ketron have made with the Event (no hope of buying one over here, ) so not interested in what I can never have, but , PA5x I had been following. One pretty amazing function is the dual style playing function. Play style 1 move slider across Play style2, slider in middle, both play together. Has the mind racing as to the possibilities.

Diki, at my age, I'm happy to be 15 years behind the times. In fact, I'm just happy to have made it to 82 and still have fun with the keyboard.

Gary

IMOP, Diki has valid points to me, as I try to keep an open mind about backing tracks. We know my viewpoint on cheating, but that doesn't mean that you can't play over tracks with both hands: I do. We all have different ways of doing things, but if I can find a better way to get a song across, I will use it if I am visibly playing, and that particular song needs some background help.

I respect the other viewpoints that have been expressed here, and they are perhaps right for them, but I don't believe in being an absolutist. We all know Diki is our technical guru and I could never pull off the more technical parts of his treatise, but will use what I can with the ability to look my audience in the eye with no guilt.

This backing track topic has been around since the advent of accompaniment and multitrack on organs in the late 60s early 70s (The arranger is just a spinoff of organ easy play features) and so unlikely to ever be resolved, all you can do is say how you like to play (Also what your audience wants) and leave it at that, as it all comes down to personal preference. (Claiming that you are playing live something you are not however is another matter)

Bill

After traveling up and down the east and southern Gulf coasts of the USA, and trying to catch every arranger keyboard player act I could find, I saw ever kind of cheater you can imagine, including one on the Jersey coast that was playing the music from a digital recorder/player, while at the same time, having some good look gals and a guy in front of him singing. Really sounded good, but than I saw that his arranger keyboard wasn't even plugged into the wall outlet. The keyboard's power cord was neatly coiled and suspended on a velcro strip attached to the stand leg, but not completely hidden from the audience. Fortunately, his singers were top notch and the ladies were very attractive, so no one seemed to notice that his fingers were falling on dead keys.

In Florida, there seems to be a zillion have guitar will travel entertainers, some of which are very, very good, while others relied heavily in those prerecorded backing tracks. I saw one guy strumming and picking his heart out using a solid body guitar, but the guitar pickup was not connected to anything. Again, this guy had a great voice, he was quite handsome, very well dressed in country attire and the ladies loved him.

When I was enjoying my time living aboard my sailboat in the Florida Keys, and packing my usual setup, I had all the work I could possibly handle. I sincerely believe there were a few good reasons behind this, while the guitar guys were working one or two jobs a week. I provided something they could not with a guitar and 100-watt amp next to them, and maybe some backing tracks. I provided the audience with variety from all genres, country, country rock, Jimmy Buffett (Can't go wrong with Jimmy in the south), some smooth jazz, oldies rock and roll, waltzes, polkas, etc... If some handed me a note with a song request, it was rare that I could not perform it. One of the lines I often used when introducing myself at the beginning of the performance was "If you have a special song that you want me to perform for you, just write it on the back of a $20 dollar bill and I'll be more than happy to take care of it." I never expected that to happen, but by golly, it did on several occasions.

I hated to leave the Florida Keys and sail back to Maryland, but my loving wife of 60 years threatened me with divorce of worse if I wasn't home by the end of March, 2013. On March, I tied the boat to the dock in Perryville, Maryland, she was there to greet me along with some friends and in the freezing cold, we sipped on a glass of champapgne. During the more than 30 plus years I was an arranger keyboard entertainer, I think I may have used backing tracks a half-dozen times, however, I always played along with them and this was songs that I was just not comfortable playing while singing.

Good luck,

Gary

I guess what I always wanted was simply to play as I had the previous 30+ years of my career, whether it was in a band or not. I spent decades honing my style and technique to make a rhythm section (guitar bass and drummer) sound as full as possible, trying to cover not only the keyboard parts, but as much strings and horns etc. as could humanly be done.

I ended up with very much a ‘two right hands’ approach, which is enormously fun to do and rewarding to pull off musically. I guess it was having to abandon all that and tie that LH up doing next to nothing that put me off all that much arranger playing. It kind of ruined my self-delusion that I was still playing with a band! But tracks and SMF’s definitely had almost as many restrictions back in the day… zero interactivity, zero spontaneity, relentless repetition.

Fortunately, with the trend towards backing tracks being multitrack and software that allows you to move freely through the structure (and MUCH better tempo and key change results than before) most of the restrictions can be avoided (with effort!).

Thing is, on the other side of the coin, now that multi-section chord sequencers that can store the sections to a registration are available, and arrangers that can interactively mix two different styles together and allow you to pick and choose which Parts are active, most of the reasons I didn’t like arranger playing have also gone (with effort!).

What an amazing time to be alive! The promise of a band that plays with YOU, that does what you want, when you want, how you want is quite honestly virtually fully realized, and all without abandoning the technique and skills that playing in great bands helped develop…

And there are now TWO different ways of achieving it. Amazing! 🎹😎

Diki:
I ended up with very much a ‘two right hands’ approach, which is enormously fun to do and rewarding to pull off musically."

I sure haven't accomplished near the technical methods you have, but I always use the "two right hands" approach. I started out very simply by putting an appropriate sound to my left hand. Next, I sort of kept time in a after beat. I graduated to adding fill chords in the same key. It ain't rocket science, but it sure adds a great deal to my total sound.

One exercise I used to do with bands was build two presets for a song. If it used piano and horns (or really whatever!) make one preset with piano at the bottom and horns on the top, then the other with them reversed.

Then every now and again, perform the song using the ‘reversed’ one live.

Sometimes you can pull them off without much difference, sometimes the technicality of one part or the other makes it impossible, and you find yourself inventing something new that works, that you might never have done using the conventional layout. Occasionally, the new way sounds better, or fresher, at least (especially on tunes you play so often you end up rote on them).

You want to work that left hand, try it sometimes! Most arrangers will let you trigger chords from the RH side of a split, do the chord recognition from the RH and play a solo (or turn off the ABASS and do a proper bassline!) with your left hand…

It’s a good remedy for the atrophy that arranger players’ left hands often develop… 🎹😎

It is safe to say if you play live with ANY pre-recordings (a single track to multiple tracks), therefore you are playing with Backing tracks. Now, obviously, the more tracks you use, the more unrealistic it is visually, but the closer to the real thing you sound (especially if performing cover tunes). This also includes using Arranger Keyboards (with styles) or Workstations with midi files/audio tracks etc.

So the question becomes, at what level is it considered 'cheating' for those who do not consider it 'professional' to use backing tracks? After 2 tracks? 3 tracks?

We can agree that someone manually playing left-hand bass and right-hand organ, while playing along to a DRUM TRACK ONLY, is putting in more 'work' than someone playing with multiple tracks/styles/Midifiles ... etc... but they are 'cheating' just as someone using Midifiles or karaoke. There is no real level where you can draw a line between these 2 examples. It's like asking when is conception - day 1, day 4 or day 7 ...etc.

Just my thoughts...

Well I respectfully disagree with that. 'Cheating', to me, is trying to make an audience believe you're playing something that you actually aren't. An organist, especially a jazz or gospel organist, playing ONLY to a drum track, is clearly the only one producing MUSICAL content and is similar to playing to a very sophisticated metronome or a clapping audience in a gospel church. He/she is not trying to 'fool' anyone and everyone can clearly see that they can 'play'. I practice with a drum machine (BK7m) all the time and I think it does wonders in keeping you from developing sloppy rhythmic habits. In a drummerless group setting, it keeps everyone on the same page (rhythmically). The fact that it can contribute musically does not overshadow it's main function, which is keeping time.

I judge a musical performance by what the musician is playing (and I don't mean how many buttons he can push or dials he can twirl) and partly how 'tasteful' the arrangement is. Whether that 'arrangement' is a backing track or an arranger style, for me, is not that important. I have never personally used a backing track or an arranger on a gig, but that may be partly because of the era I grew up in, but mostly because neither lent itself well to the type of music I was playing.

The ongoing, never-ending debate about backing tracks/arranger styles/lip syncing/'cheating', etc. will go on forever, mostly between two classes, musicians that can play and non-musicians that can't (AKA 'entertainers').

chas

I think it boils down to, what can the audience SEE you doing?

For arranger players, it is your hands that make the visual connection between what they are hearing and what you are playing. For this reason, I prefer a single keyboard rig with no other gear in the way. Multiple keyboard stacked rigs are all well and good in a live band situation (where you generally set up facing inwards and the audience can once again see you playing) but in a solo setting, all that extra stuff hides your hands if you face the audience. For most of us that DON’T ‘cheat’ (that is, mime to prerecorded tracks) to be quite honest, the hard part is convincing the audience that you ARE playing the sax solo or the guitar lead if you get it to the point that it’s really accurate! If they can’t SEE you playing the solo, they have every right to assume that it’s as prerecorded as the drums, bass, rhythm guitar etc..

Obviously, they can’t see a drummer, the bassist or a guitarist, they aren’t likely to assume you’re actually playing every note they hear. But if you spend the time and effort to really nail solos on instruments other than piano or organ (which are what the audience is naturally going to assume you’re playing!) it’s a shame to have them not SEE you playing the sax solo or lead guitar…

How many tracks (whether arranger, SMF or audio) are too many? In my opinion, when you COULD actually play some, but don’t. And even worse, when you mime along with tracks you could play, but don’t. Then you are seriously into an area even worse than DJ-ing. At least DJ’s don’t pretend they are playing anything!

I have nothing against ‘entertainers’. Most of the time, they are pretty good singers, and great communicators with an audience, skills that often great ‘players’ struggle with. But the line for me is when they try to take credit for musical content they have nothing to do with, by faking playing it. But I’m pretty sure we don’t have any of those here! 🎹😎

In that case, I can replace the Drum machine with a pre-recorded Bassline, and get the same results.

Apples and Kiwi's. Drum machines don't contribute to the harmonic or melodic structure of a tune; Basslines do. For instance, how long can you endure the average DRUM SOLO? (I once went 37 seconds before throwing up and running out the room screaming). But a great bassline has the same effect as Viagra. Well close anyway .

chas

Basslines are one of the weak areas of arranger play. Played basslines move towards the next chord in a myriad of musical ways. The arranger bass part never knows the next chord until you play it!

Unless you’re doing a rote set of changes (12 bar blues, for instance) the style’s bassline has to remain generic and capable of going anywhere. You can help it out to a certain degree by moving to the first inversion, which will tend to suggest the 4 chord’s coming next, but it’s a pale shadow of a proper bassline.

Played basslines are generally better, but now you’re back to only having one right hand! Damned if you do, damned if you don’t! This is why I tend to favor tracks. Proper voice leading…

Too true.

Hi Jim, me too, except for me it’s only to entertain myself.

I did some backing tracks to play along with, when I bought my piano a couple of years ago. I couldn’t have my keyboard and piano in the living room, so tried playing along to the inbuilt MP3 player. Soon got bored with that. Moved the piano to my little music room, stacked sx900 on top, and went back to playing with styles. Much more enjoyable.

Hi Rikki,

Moving gear is the norm. The stack sounds like fun and glad you like it. I toy around with a 2nd board, from time to time, but really not in my best interest, time-wise. Jim

Hi Jim, the Kawai es920 and the sx900 worked well together. I was literally only using the es920 as a controller ie like having an sx900 with 88 keys. Wasn’t using any of the es920:voices. Quite a simple setup.

PA5x as controller for sx900 is proving to be a bit more challenging. Haha . I want to be able to use some of those great pax5 sounds for melody. Just have to get the old brain functioning again and work out the required midi settings. Life wasn’t meant to be easy. Haha

I think the only second board I’d consider at the moment would be a Roli Seabord type MPE controller. There are some things you can do with those that simply can’t be done on a conventional keyboard. Trouble is, I’m a ‘try before you buy’ kind of guy, and finding one round here is next to impossible.

Plus, at $1400 for a 49 note it’s not exactly an impulse buy! I know Marco Parisi is a very special player, and expecting results just like him is a bit optimistic, but the realism he coaxes from the Roli is a generational leap over conventional keyboards. At least the upside to a Roli as lead keyboard is that it’s ultra low profile, so it might be doable to have it stacked without completely obscuring me. But as a lead keyboard it might be better on my right anyway…

Anyone here spent any significant time on a Roli?

https://youtu.be/2fQbtp2BgY4

https://youtu.be/krlQIHD1YmE

https://youtu.be/mLc-Dk6LbEA

Heady stuff! 🎹🤯

Marco Parisi - Cory Henry here:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3rUmEbYTx8


Talk about geniuses in the keyboard world. It is not what they play that amazes me, but HOW THE COMMUNICATE what they play, that leads to these results. Some folks are just "born to play" and it is hard/rare to find such matching talent.

Wow!!!

I agree. But it’s amazing that this new type of keyboard allows them to be so much expressive than they could before.

The tyranny of fixed intonation from the standard keyboard has always made it a challenge to imitate instruments that have always had a more flexible approach to intonation. Of course the great players are going to coax more out of it than the rest of us, but almost any of us should be able to get at least a BIT more expression with these things. MPE is definitely a giant leap forward compared to where MIDI has been since the 80’s!

Results from the Roli seem very mixed if you listen to YouTube demos. Some players definitely ‘get it’, and some players should never touch one again! I just would like the opportunity to find out which group I’m in without blowing $1400! 😂🎹

AJ and Diki, if I were in the audience, after about 10 seconds of that production I would be headed out the door. To me, it was not entertaining at all, but what the Hell, I'm an old fart and damned glad to have made it this far. Tonight, I'm working on "I Believe In Miracles" by Hot Chocolate. Another couple days and I think I will have it down and be able to record it. Yeah, I know, it's not an old peoples song, but what the Hell, in my mind I'm still 17 years old and looking for hot gals of the same age. When I record "I Believe In Miracles" it will be recorded directly on my aging S-950, no edits other than to convert it to an MP3 for posting.

All the best,

Gary

Atta boy Gary !

We old farts never quit.

Every group needs a Gary; he brings reality into a group.

Aging, old keyboard, not much fussing, and he keeps it simple.
In short; he is enjoying what he has, and what he can do. NICE.

John C.

Thank you guys. I was afraid to say anything about how bad that was to my old ears. I would have been ahead of Gary on getting out the door.
MEL

Gary, I look forward to hearing some of your renditions. Sounds like you have some energy again (super good news). Bring them on!

Jim

l am so glad you guys have posted. l listened to it just after it was posted and thought !"£$@^*@"$% l think you get the drift. l thought l should keep quiet thinking this is the new in thing. So glad it's not just me

Russ

Hi Diki, very intriguing keyboard. Not so sure about your choice of utube clips, though. The guy is obviously extremely talented, but , guessing from some of the comments , not quite our type of music?
Maybe a clip featuring how it works might have had a different response. It’s not like your normal type of keyboard. I would imagine for strings and orchestra’s it would be amazing, but maybe not for piano.
Came across a guy who does film scoring, he just raved about it. ( utube)
Apparently there’s a Rise2 coming out, or has just been released.
Good luck , hope you get a chance to try one.

They’ve got a demo night at my old music store back in Sydney, would have been down there in a flash. Miss the city. Haha.

I’m afraid it’s pretty tough to find clips of it that play down to the geriatric standards of our more vocal members here. But I’m pretty sure that to most people mentally under the age of forty, it’s pretty impressive!

Maybe we can get Marco to play an emotionless version of Tie a Yellow Ribbon and regain some of the respect for the instrument!😂

Hey Diki, maybe you better take a look in the mirror - you are also in that Geriatric Category. But, if you are like most people our age, we still think like we were 17 years old, dating a new girl every month, and trying to find someone over 21 to go to the liquor store and buy us a 6-pack of Budweiser!

Right now, I'm working on a song I never performed in the past, "I Believe In Miracles" which when my right hand and arm heal up a bit, I'll try to record it.

All the best,

Gary

Well, my right hand aches like a toothache, but I gave it a shot this morning, a one shot deal on aging S-950 using the onboard USB recorder, no edits, no backing tracks, just a 3rd party style file I obtained from a member of the PSR Tutorial site, just the same as if I were still performing on stage before I retired due to health issues. I may be in the Geriatric Category, but I can still think like I was young. Wish I still had my vocals as I did when I was a horny, 17 year old kid.

https://app.box.com/s/yyz8xv6y0vffn2h0yx3zuyw3r52tmtmk

Gary

Gary,

Great job. Also liked the RH lead with the Roli. Thanks for sharing with the youngsters here.

No Problem, Paul. I'll be happy to send it to you sometime tomorrow.

Gary

Gary, geriatric is a state of mind, not an actual age. If you close yourself off to anything from the last half a century (Purple Rain came out in 1984!) you kind of limit your growth. It’s keeping pushing up against your limits both in technique and taste that keep you young.

Diki, I have a fairly extensive medical background and I can unequivocally tell you that it is not a state of mind - it's a matter of body parts that have worn out with age and abuse of the body human. I have a lot of body parts that are either no longer functional, missing or been surgically replaced. My mind is still quite functional and I still manage to provide technical assistance to hundreds of individuals on various arranger keyboard forums. Ironically, at this point I having a great deal of difficulty typing this due to a compression/stress fracture of my right wrist. This happens quite frequently to older individuals who tend to try to keep appointments that were made in their minds, however, their body can no longer keep.

You'll figure it out, one day,

Gary

I think both scenarios have merit. I think there is going to be physical degradation, or worse, but I believe a fighting spirit ameliorates the severity many times.

Bernie, you're a model of what a forum participant should be. On so many of your posts you leave me thinking "Damn, wish I'd said that" (instead of what I REALLY said ). I don't know (OR CARE) what your political leanings might be, but on this forum I'd call you a MODERATE INDEPENDANT. BTW, Rikki also shares these virtues. Of course if all of us were like you two, there would be very few controversies and some of us might think we'd logged onto the wrong forum by mistake .

chas

Aw Geez, Chas, thanks.

I have seen what political and religious controversies has led to in this forum. I am a moderate in this forum, and in everyday life. That doesn't mean I don't have leanings, but there is a time and place for everything, and dis ain't the place. I want to enjoy the remnants of my favorite forum in peace and harmony. Here endeth the epistle.

Thank you to my old friends that still drop in and add whatever they can.

ps
Since we are naming names, I have come to know Chas, and like him, but he is a prime example of a person that won't stay still for any disparaging remarks. I would be the same, but I don't take the bait, usually. In other word, don't start something and there will be no trouble.

Hi Chas old buddy.

If that other Roli stuff upset the traditionalists, I can only imagine what this will do!

https://youtu.be/_bmEWhCErc0

I was never upset by the Roli stuff you posted. Far from it! For me, it was about as entertaining as watching paint dry. Same with this one.

Good luck, Diki,

Gary

I THOUGHT THIS FORUM WAS ABOUT PUTTING OUT FIRES NOT STARTING THEM. SHAME.
MEL

Honestly guys, if you think this is a fire, you don’t have much of a memory of how bad the forum got before the Great Migration.

And sorry, but if this is paint drying, this explains a lot, Gary. Parisi coaxes more realism from the sax part from a few square inches of MPE Blocks than I’ve ever heard from anyone on this forum on a conventional keyboard,

Perhaps you should have watched more painters, Gary…

Hi Chas,
Wouldn’t life be boring. Haha

I guess I'm a bit old fashioned, Diki, but when I listen to a song, any song, I want to be entertained. I want to hear the story that the song's lyrics tell, and in reality, I want to hear something that gets my toes tapping, something that stirs my emotions, something that makes me want to join in and share these emotions with someone else. Lately, I have been listening to songs by the Irish Rovers, some of which I often performed when I was still working. My toes begin tapping when I hear the song "Drunken Sailor".



Enjoy your day,

Gary

Thanks for posting this Gary,more please.

Terry, I put this together in 2016, it's culmination of 5 songs by the Irish Rovers, the line dancers loved it and I thoroughly enjoyed performing it, especially for Saint Patty's Day parties. Here's my rendition of Irish Stew: Click Here To Hear Irish Stew

Here's the You Tube vid of the line dance:



All the best,

Gary

I wonder which of us would be accused of being ‘incendiary’ if I said I thought what you posted was less entertaining than watching paint dry, Gary? Probably me, seeing as you seem to get a free pass for being insultingly dismissive of posted music…

The purpose of those Roli/SWAM examples is NOT to ‘entertain’, but to illustrate how sax and other real instrument emulation (which we all try to do on our arrangers) is getting rapidly way better than most arrangers can achieve. But can be done on an inexpensive iPad attached to our USB capable arrangers.

I guess, to a hammer, everything looks like a nail. To a singer/entertainer, perhaps music without lyrics is boring. But somehow, sax players (and guitarists, and trumpet players and basically any capable soloist) have built an entire field of music out of not telling a story with as blunt an instrument as words, but with expression and melody. And any tool that helps coax expression out of the percussive nature of the piano keyboard is anything but boring, at least to someone capable of playing it.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion about posted music. But don’t get offended if someone is as blunt to your choice. Not that I’m against your taste at all, it’s just that mine is perhaps a bit wider. And I still continue to post in the hope that some of this stuff will inspire those still capable of change to explore equipment and techniques to widen their possibilities of musical expression…

Diki, if this were something YOU had posted, something YOU created using those techniques, I would loved to have heard it. I don't want a "FREE PASS" for expressing MY opinion of what you posted. It's just MY opinion, my thoughts, my interpretation of what I heard. Opinions, obviously, vary and thus far, nothing that I have seen and heard has excited me, musically. Guess I'm getting old, Diki. HELL, I am old, and damned proud that I made it this far.

Looking forward to someone posting their demos of what they were able to accomplish using the examples posted by you.

Good luck,

Gary

AMEN!!!
There seems to be so much of this these days; missing the point of something and then lashing out at the misconception. Maybe that's the reason so many dumbasses are willing to vote against their own best interest.

BTW, I will be releasing my new NFT digital trading card depicting ME sitting behind my ARRANGER KEYBOARD pretending to play Sweet Caroline (in C). There will be a 1% discount on the first 10 cards sold, along with instructions on 'copy and paste' and/or capturing a screen shot. Supply is limited so order soon.

chas the omnipotent

Chas, playing cards won't do too much good for either of us. We were BOTH interested in an entirely DIFFERENT ball game!!!!!!


Be well,


Russ

Hi Diki, must have missed that one, did you say iPad? Pc software is so expensive.

Yes, the SWAM modeled software has been ported to the iPad! And considerably cheaper at that…

There are some trade offs, naturally. You get a more stripped down feature set, some of the fine control available to the computer versions is missing from the iPad version, but to be honest, the only one I’m missing so far is the ability to introduce a bit of random pitch variation, which I can work around by riding the bender or pitch strip.

I am amazed at how low I can get the latency out of my iPad’s audio jack without a stutter ever… 1.5ms! Admittedly, I get that by running just the standalone version, I have yet to see whether running it in a VST/AU shell program (like Camelot Pro) dictates upping the buffer a bit. But even winding it up to 6ms gives a very playable feel. So if I need the shell for hosting better effects (it lacks an echo, and the reverb is pretty barebones) it won’t ruin the experience. And I have a fairly old iPad, a 6th Gen regular iPad (so you don’t need a Pro to run it). That’s amazing!

I bought the Black Friday bundles, which get the cost down to well under $20US for each instrument in a bundle of four. Right now at full price, the four instrument bundles are about $90US. That’s still a no brainer in my book!

I’m not as impressed by the brass and double reeds, but in fairness, most decent arrangers have pretty good brass. But the sax and strings are totally next gen compared to any arrangers built in sounds. Play them idiomatically, they are hard to spot as a keyboard sound. Add a breath controller, even harder!

If the price of them has been holding you back, wait no longer..! Even the $250US for the computer version bundles is worth every penny. But if you have to go laptop version, and only can get one, I’d say the tenor sax is probably the most useful. And the cello and violin is a tossup, depends on what you would use the most.

Unfortunately, Gary, I don’t own a Roli or any MPE equipped controller yet. Roli went out of business and then got bought out, and current Seabord’s are only pre-paid made to order, and cost about $1400. A bit beyond my budget just to try out so I can make you a demo you will listen to!

This is why I posted the Marco Parisi stuff, who I consider the best Roli player I have yet heard. And I’ve heard some pretty bad ones, so just owning one is no magic bullet. Talent and skill is still needed, whether a Roli or a standard keyboard. Skill that eludes a LOT of players on YouTube demos. In fairness, Marco blows away even Cory Henry, who is a piano and organ virtuoso! So it definitely seems like one of those quirky controller things that some people get and others don’t. Marco definitely ‘gets it’… You may or may not like his playing style or choice of material, but there’s no denying the skill with which he coaxes a level of realism from saxes or guitar parts far beyond other more conventional keyboard users.

My playing schedule has kind of blown up lately, while my health has taken a step back (ain’t that always the case?!) so I have little time to record much, but I’ll try to get something to you in the future. But be careful… the paint might still be a bit wet! 😂🎹

Quote by Diki:
" I’m not as impressed by the brass and double reeds, but in fairness, most decent arrangers have pretty good brass. But the sax and strings are totally next gen compared to any arrangers built in sounds. Play them idiomatically, they are hard to spot as a keyboard sound. Add a breath controller, even harder!"

Besides keyboard, I play chromatic harmonicas fairly well, mainly because I can play most anything by ear, mainly on rifts and verses. This is all well and good, with a favorable reaction from my audience. However, some songs are not as good with harmonica. I have had a DM48 wind controller in harmonica form, that gives me any instrument through USB from a keyboard. Ohers on my forum have used SWAM with great success, but they don't have access to the sounds I have. At present, the DM48 delivers the same basic sound as a key press, with added realism.

In a quest to build a lighter rig, I use a Ketron SD40 module. a controller keyboard, and the DM48 wind controller. I am wondering whether I could attain even more realism with SWAM and my iPad 6. I am speaking of the basic sound to start with. This is quite subjective, but your opinion would be helpful.

Bernie

SWAM is a totally different to any arranger you have heard. It is not based on samples, with perhaps multi-velocity samples or key switching for legato, at best. SWAM uses no samples, is strictly a mathematical model of the reed and pipe (and strings and bow, etc). As such, it can achieve far greater realism in the way one note leads to the next, depending on articulation, breath pressure (or expression pedal), bite force, interval, velocity etc.. And as you increase breath pressure or expression pedal, it offers an infinitely smooth transition from the quiet timbre to the loud one.

A sample is a static photograph of a sound at one particular point. Like a pixel on a screen. The more samples, the clearer the picture becomes. But modeling doesn’t use pixels to create the picture. The picture is clear to start with…

Your MIDI harmonica should do quite well with SWAM. The trick, as always, even with sampled instruments is to play what a sax player would play, not what a harmonica player would..! But get that right, SWAM will amaze you.

Thanks Diki, I will investigate further.

If you can bend with your harmonica, that”s probably what’s going to determine if it works or not. Saxes do a lot of sliding around, scooping, that sort of thing. But even bendless, you can get a few things going if breath pressure can influence the velocity of the note sent. Low velocity notes will gliss between notes, with speed and intensity varying depending on the window and expression value.

But, just like on a keyboard, if you play sax or guitar solos (or just about anything other than piano, organ and clavinet!) without using the bender, it comes out a bit strange, a bit unconvincing. Luckily, you also have a selection of arrangers that can set the expression pedal to do bending, although it might be tricky to have both bend up AND down assigned to a pedal that has no center decent. This was something that was always missing from the Roland feature set, and to be honest, it ruined using arranger mode for me unless I could use the chord sequencer before I soloed.

I am a bender addict, unashamedly! 🎹

Thanks Diki

My DM48 has these capabilities, but sadly, I haven't yet. I use a lot of sax and clarinet sounds, many with effects built in. I have to experiment, but wondering if I should use static tones that are unadulterated. I am thinking like adding a Leslie effect to an organ. You don't add it to a tone with a Leslie already in it. I can see the importance of bending, as sax players use a lot of it. Where as bending is not easily attained with diatonic harmonicas, I have settings on my slide to help me, similar to a keyboard.

I’ll be interested in hearing what you can do with the harmonica if you get the iPad SWAM sounds…

I used to play a bit of chromatic harmonica as a kid, and I remember being able to get a bit of a bend by half opening the slide, but it was tough to get a proper blues bend!