Hello,

I need your professional advice.

Please educate me on your best VST setup.

What would be the best way to run VSL Synchron Fazioli F308, Spectrasonics Keyscape, Garritan CFX, Ravenscoft 275 to achieve the lowest latency?

Would you go with a Mac or a PC and what would be the ideal specs?

Would you be using an external audio interface and which one?

What is the minimum latency you have achieved in your setup? Does the latency bother you when playing a VST plugin?

Does it feel as responsive as playing a keyboard with internal sounds?

I will be using a Roland RD-2000 as my MIDI Controller.

Are there vendors who make specialized computers for making music? If so, which one would you recommend?

Best,

David

This article here should help.

Take your time as there is not one size that firs all, plus it is a long learning curve, so make sure you fully understand Midi capabilities first.

As to interfaces then just like the computers it depends on what you have to spend, and what features that you require, (The article should help) which only you can decide.

Finally make sure you really want to go down this route, as there are some great hardware workstations out there, also don't think it's as easy as using an arranger which does pretty much everything for you with just one button press, you have to get down and dirty with Workstations and DAWs.

Bill

Hi Bill,

That was an extensive article on selecting the best music computer. Thanks for that link.
This is a good starting point.

You have a lot of experience on VST plugins. What is the lowest latency you have achieved in your own setup?

The recommended total latency is 3ms, however I normally use 5ms as I do not find it gives any delay and puts less strain on the computer, you however may be different, this site here should help you solve any problems you may come across with various remedies.

Bill

I don’t see any reference to anything arranger based in tapas’ post, it might help to have him detail what he’s trying to accomplish…

If he’s just looking for a few high quality sounds to flesh out an arranger performance, that’s one thing. But for starters he mentions it all being controlled from an RD2000, so not an arranger…

If he’s looking to do entire productions or live show layering of sounds, that puts a LOT more strain on a VSTi setup than one hand playing a solo over an arranger backing. Latency is always a trade off with polyphony, and many of the newer piano VSTi’s, with multiple mic positions and close and distant room ambiences can chew up a CPU pretty quickly triggering all those samples for each note, along with string resonance samples etc..

I find that sub 5ms latency is pretty much indistinguishable from hardware, but you start layering a TOTL piano plugin with a TOTL string and orchestral library, and achieving that latency live can be an issue, especially if you’re a bit sustain pedal happy..!

So, as in all things VSTi related, YMMV. So much depends on how you play, what you play and where (live or studio etc) that there’s no definitive answer.

How do you see yourself using all this, Tapas?

Hi Bill,


Thanks for linking those two articles. They helped me find a solution.

I will explain what I had to do to use the Ravenscroft VST plugin while achieving a low latency.

But first let me address Diki’s question. What was my objective?



1. OBJECTIVE



I watched several comparison videos of Piano VSTs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvR5lb8X3Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI59pBb5_7Y

I decided on trying VI Labs Ravenscroft 275 VST because of the 30% off Summer Sale price of $139 and its small footprint of 5.6GB.

https://www.vilabsaudio.com/Ravenscroft-By-VI-Labs

My objective was to find the best computer to run this VST that would give me an acceptable low latency value.

I have a Roland RD-2000 with the German Concert Grand V-PIANO Expansion Kit.

What made me look for piano VSTs?

The RD-2000 is optimized to be a Stage Piano. The factory Stage Grand Piano is perfect to cut through a mix. The German Concert Grand is a brighter version. While they are ideal voices in a live setting with other musicians on stage, they do not connect emotionally when used solo in a studio environment like a real acoustic grand.

The initial attacks on these modeled piano wave forms lack the richness, bite and tonal character that you get when playing on an acoustic piano.

Listen to how much mellower the Ravenscoft 275 VST sounds that is sampled off a 10ft Ravenscoft Acoustic Grand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpwNdtspoWk&list=PLHQtRNr0BitDvc6LSJydAfpI8DBw0phjA



2. MY SETUP



When I first launched the standalone UVI Workstation VST player and loaded the Ravenscroft 275 VST on my Windows 7 PC and connected the Roland RD-2000 as a midi controller, the latency was horrible. This is what prompted me to make my initial post asking for guidelines.

I took a deep dive into the world of Computer Music over the last several days and found the best way to reduce the latency down to 10 msec.

If you are on a PC, do not use the Windows WDM Audio Drivers. The latency is too high around 20 msec.

The best approach is to use an external Audio Interface that uses Steinberg ASIO drivers. This alone would solve half your problems.

I am using the Yamaha AG06 6-channel USB Mixer.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/...interface-white

Open the AG06 Control Panel for the Yamaha Steinberg USB driver.
Open the AG06/AG03 Tab and set this Sample Rate to 44.1kHz.
This is very important!

Although this mixer supports sampling rates up to 192kHz, do not use anything higher.
The Ravenscroft 275 VST requires the sampling rate to be set at 44.1kHz.

Open the ASIO Tab.

Set Mode = Stable
Set Buffer Size = 32 Samples.

This is very important!
Setting the Buffer Size to 32 Samples will give you an Input Latency of 5.896 msec and an Output Latency of 5.896 msec.

At this lowest Sample Size setting, you would not notice any latency while playing the keys on the RD-2000.

You can layer the internal Stage Grand voice on the RD-2000 with the Ravenscroft 275 VST and you will not hear any note doubling effect.

Of course you need to have a CPU powerful enough to handle this low buffer setting.
If the sound cracks you would need to increase the buffer size to 48 or 64 Samples which will unfortunately increase the latency.

I am running a PC with an Intel Core i7-6800K CPU, 32GB of RAM and a Samsung NVMe SSD using Windows 7 Professional 64-bit OS.

I custom built this PC. Here are the complete specs and full installation instructions.

http://www.davidapps.net/arcgispc.html

Having set the Sampling Rate and Buffer Size in the AG06 Control Panel, next you need to launch your DAW.

I am using SONAR X2.

These are the settings you need to make.

Create a New Project

Edit | Preferences | Audio | Devices

Input Drivers = Yamaha Steinberg USB ASIO AG06

Output Drivers = Yamaha Steinberg USB ASIO AG06

This is very important!

Do not use any other drivers.


Edit | Preferences | Audio | Driver Settings

Playback Timing Master = Yamaha Steinberg USB ASIO AG06/AG03

Recording Timing Master = Yamaha Steinberg USB ASIO AG06/AG03

Sampling Rate = 44100 (Do not change this1)

You will see this readout:

ASIO Reported Latencies (including buffer and hardware latencies)
Input = 5.9 msec, 260 samples
Output = 5.9 msec, 260 samples
Total Roundtrip = 11.8 msec, 520 samples


Edit | Preferences | Audio | Playback and Recording

Driver Mode = ASIO
Dithering = Triangular


This completes your Audio Settings.


Finally, you need to load the VST plugin

Insert | Soft Synth | vstplugins | UVI Workstation VST x64

This will add a Soft Synth Track with the name = UVIWorkstation

Double Click on the small instrument icon next to the name of the track.

This will open the UVI Workstation Panel.

Double Click to open the browser.

Select Ravenscroft 275

Open Settings on the Ravenscroft 275 Window.

You need to make a few changes to the default settings:

Turn Pedal Noise Off
Turn Key Noise Off
Set Close Microphone Level to Max.
Set the Player, Room and Side Microphone volumes to zero.

Set Reverb Program = Small Concert Hall.
Dry Level = 100%
Wet Level = 50%

Set the main volume on your RD-2000 to zero and play a few notes. You will hear the Ravenscroft 275 VST voices with no perceptible lag.

Turn up the volume on your RD-2000. You will hear the internal voices on the RD-2000 layered with the Ravenscroft 275 VST voices. You should not hear any note doubling.

This is a perfectly acceptable solution.

Note: If you do not have an external audio interface, you can still use the internal sound card on your PC. Just do not use the Windows WDM Audio Drivers.

Instead, install this free ASIO4ALL driver from:

https://asio4all.org/

This driver acts like a wrapper. It fools Window into thinking you have an ASIO driver.
It is the next best thing to having an external Audio Interface equipped with a Yamaha-Steinberg ASIO driver.



3. USING A PC FOR MUSIC



There are some excellent YouTube videos showing how to build a PC for music production.

Computer Specs for Music Production in 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lCuH4OZmrI

The Best Computer for Music Production
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayt8-s77cQs

How many CPU cores do you need to run Virtual Instrument?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmCEyLg5bpU

How to build a Silent PC for Music Production
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JBa4niv2EQ

Note: For using VST plugins, single core performance is more important than number of cores.



4. USING A MAC FOR MUSIC



Things are a lot simpler in the Apple World.
You do not have to worry about driver issues.
Apple has its own Core Audio Drivers that gives you very low latencies out of the box.

If you want to have a hassle free MAC setup powerful enough to run all your VSTs get the Apple 2023 Mac Mini M2 Pro with 16GB of RAM and 512GB SSD

https://www.amazon.com/Apple-Desktop-Computer-10%E2%80%91core-Ethernet/dp/B0BSHFS6XX/

$1,200

Next, add this Satechi Mac Mini Hub.

https://www.amazon.com/Satechi-Type-C-Stand-Enclosure-USB/dp/B0CR1WWSGN

$90

Next, add this Crucial P3 Plus 2TB NVMe SSD that goes inside the Satechi Hub.

https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Plus-PCIe-NAND-5000MB/dp/B0B25ML2FH

$118


Total cost for a MAC setup = $1,408

This would be a reliable and powerful setup to handle all your music projects.

My Apple Mac Mini has never failed me.


Here are some excellent YouTube videos on using the Mac Mini for music:

M2 Pro Mac Mini – Perfect for Music Production
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjTcRXDk7WU

Using the Satechi Mac Mini HUB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8nAsXC5jk4

M2 vs M2 Pro: What does the extra $700 get you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gy5wKdGdF4



5. HARDWARE OPTIONS FOR PLAYING PIANO VOICES



If you are solely interested in playing a piano, nothing beats the experience of playing on a real acoustic grand. If you have the space and the resources you have plenty of choices – Steinway Model D274, Yamaha CFX Concert Grand, Shigeru Kawai SK-EX Concert Grand, Fazioli F308, Bosendorfer 290 Imperial.

What if you are constrained by space?

The best choice is to go with a digital piano that closely mimics the sound and feel of a Grand Piano.

The Kawai MP11Se fits the bill.

This comes with the Kawai Grand Feel Action. It has extra-long keys on a pivot mechanism with 3 sensors and a Shigeru Kawai SK-EX piano sample.

https://www.thomannmusic.com/kawai_mp_11_se.htm

$2000

Note: You would need a step down transformer to use this in the US.

The Key Action feels better than the Yamaha CVP-909 and Roland LX708.

You need this sturdy stand to support this 72lb beast.

K&M 18950

https://www.thomannmusic.com/km_18950.htm

$148

To place your Arranger Keyboard above the Kawai MP11SE, you need this 2nd tier support.

K&M 18952 Stacker

https://www.thomannmusic.com/km_18952_aufsatz.htm

$50

Here is a demo of the Kawai MP11SE voices

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23AXGDs-8ic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzLQnylV-5c

The only downside of the Kawai MP11SE is that you may need to replace the factory slip tape ever so often when the keys begin to stick.

This problem has been fixed in the latest Kawai Grand Feel 3 Action.

You can buy the Kawai CA901 digital piano that features this newer action.

However, this is not portable.

https://alamopianogalleries.com/products/kawai-ca901-digital-piano-satin-black

$6,399

The SK-EX Concert Grand Sample on the Kawai CA901 sounds even more refined than the one on the Kawai MP11SE because of better electronics.

The next step up is to go with a Hybrid Piano like the Kawai NOVUS NV5s

This has the Kawai Millennium III Hybrid upright piano action.

https://alamopianogalleries.com/products/kawai-43-3-nv5s-hybrid-digital-piano-polished-ebony-new

$12,000

Sound Demo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DaaafyAUqA



6. CLOSING THOUGHTS



Nothing quite sounds and feels the same as playing on a real acoustic grand piano.

You can get pretty close by getting a digital Hybrid like the Kawai NOVUS NV5s ($12,000). In comparison, the Kawai MP11SE ($2,000) seems like a bargain. This is a smart choice.

If you plan on using Piano VSTs, getting a Mac Mini M2 Pro ($1,200) is an excellent, hassle free and reliable solution.

If for some reason you need to use a PC as your Music Computer, you need to bypass the Windows WDM Audio Drivers by using an external Audio Interface like the Yamaha AG06 USB Mixer that features the built in Yamaha-Steinberg ASIO drivers.

Set the Sampling Rate to 44.1kHz and the Buffer Size to 32 samples. This should result in a low enough latency that is workable.

Best,

David

Glad you found something that works for you.

Personally, I’m massively impressed by Spectrasonic’s Keyscape. Pricy yes… but you aren’t paying for a piano, you’re paying for incredible emulations of almost every electro-acoustic keyboard you might ever want: Clavinets, Rhodes, Wurlitzers, a really good acoustic piano, Pianets, toy pianos, B3, CP70’s, you name it…

Once you factor in how many keyboards are exquisitely sampled, you end up thinking of the piano as a bargain!

It’s amazing how low latency is getting! I use the SWAM modeled instruments, and can get a bombproof 3ms from my old iPad! Admittedly, it’s one voice but modeled not sampled, so a fair bit of CPU used… we live in great times 😎

Remember, latency isn’t a two way trip when you’re using audio drivers. Only the output latency should count because there’s no audio coming in, just going out. That ‘total round trip’ latency simply refers to audio coming in, being processed and then going out. So you ought to get a respectable latency one way…

Hi Diki,


Thanks for explaining why the Output Latency only matters when playing a VST instrument inside a DAW. We should not be concerned about Total Roundtrip (Input + Output) Latency values.

This means I am getting a latency of 5.9 msec through my Yamaha AG06 USB mixer using a Sampling frequency of 44.1kHz and Buffer Size of 32 Samples.

Yes, the Spectrasonics Keyscape is a wonderful product.

I purchased Spectrsonics Omnisphere for $479 in 2011. I am surprised it is still the same price in 2024. This massive synthesizer bundle is a bargain.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/...are-synthesizer


Eric Persing is a talented sound designer.

Investing in a powerful Music Computer like the MAC Mini M2 Pro opens up a world of endless possibilities. It is the best $1200 you will ever spend.

For PC users I wanted to add a note of how to clean up all the junk and make it run as fast as possible.




7. HOW TO MAKE YOUR PC RUN FASTER



Clean and Optimize your PC using Pegasun System Utilities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYXAhgFEARs



Disable these 24 services to conserve CPU and RAM usage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GycBonDFmvo


Best,

David

Have fun, as this is what music is all about.

Bill

Be aware… yes, the new Apple computers are amazing rock stable pieces of musical gear, but if you (like me) have invested in high end FireWire audio interfaces for stability and low latency with older Macs, Apple no longer support FireWire Core Audio, meaning essentially it’s a doorstop if I upgrade.

Upgrading is never easy! 💵💵💵