I am in the process of transferring most of the song setups and styles from the hard disk of my KN5000 to a 128Meg Sandisk SD card for the KN7000. As many of you know, KN5000 files are much larger than KN6000+ files and you can usually get less than 10 on a floppy. I had previously backed up my hard disk to my laptop and went through the process of editing the file names to long file names in anticipation of dragging and dropping them to the KN7000 SD card. Boy did I get a surprise when I tried to transfer the files. Those of us that are familiar with digital cameras and other USB stuff are accustomed to the camera acting like a disk drive for the computer and you can just drag and drop files from one to the other. Not so with the KN7000. So far, the only use I can find for the USB connection is to record digitally to the computer, which is much better than analog to the computer. But, not much use, if any, for file management. I don’t use mass memory much for sequences. I use it primarily for song setups that contain the style and panel memory settings for each song.

So, the process of transferring files means copying the files from the hard disk backup (in my case a CD) to a floppy and then doing a floppy copy to the SD card. For KN5000 files that means that you can copy five or six files to the SD card from a full floppy. You can’t merge a second floppy to the same SD card folder because the process deletes the previous stuff you copied to the SD card folder. In addition, the floppy copy can only work with the old-fashioned 6-character file name so any file names that are longer get truncated. So, I had to resort to copying a few files to separate folders on the SD card. Then, using the song copy utility for the SD (there is no move utility) I copied files one at a time from one folder to another to try to fill the 20 spaces on each folder. There is no utility to delete a folder so each file had to be deleted one at a time from the original folder that had been used. It may be possible to copy an empty (or almost empty) floppy to a folder to delete unneeded files. I haven’t tried yet.

This is agonizing. . . .

I have filled 30 folders of the SD card space. When I last noticed the memory readout showed that I had consumed 33% of the card capacity. Now I notice that the memory readout shows that I have 80864 MB free and I have used 0% (zero) of available space. Something wrong somewhere. The files are still there and everything works OK. It’s just the read out utility that’s wrong. Tomorrow I’ll add some more files and see if the available space readout fixes itself.

By the way, I am using a Sandisk Cruzer card drive (card reader) to backup the work I have done with the SD card to my laptop. The backup of about 40MB takes just three or four minutes. I really like the Cruzer. It’s small and works fine.

I hope someone from Technics reads this.

Well, I knew that I wouldn’t be able to sleep while thinking about the stuff above so I went back to the KN7000 and copied another floppy to the SD card. That changed the percent used to 1% instead of 0%. Not much improvement since it still is obviously wrong.

But, there is a way to delete an entire folder of the SD card. All you have to do is copy an empty floppy to the folder. That deletes all of the files of the folder. When I copied the empty floppy to the folder that I had just filled, the percent used went back to 0%. That must be a software glitch that needs fixing. It may have something to do with the fact that the KN7000 files are smaller (compressed) than the KN5000 files. When I edit the files and then save them in KN7000 format the space consumed is reduced on the SD card. That may confuse the algorhythm used in the "percent used" utility.

these points have all already been raised with technics. the easiest way to convert to 7k format is to drag to and from song manager, taking out non-used file types options. You will save a LOT of space compared to 5000 format. I only copy 20 files to a folder because my originals are all in 6X00 format and 20 easily fit on a floppy. You would be much better off converting to 7k format first and then copying, you won't have to do all the file moving on the sd card. Besides 5000 format will use up all your space unnecessarily. I also renamed everything with a hex editor in the kn7000mn.inf file, the long file names display perfectly. I did most of the work on the 8MB card, backed it up, wiped it, and carried on with new files. Then merged the backups and restored all the files to a much bigger card when I had seen how much space I needed and bought one.

used space on the card is different whatever method you use to look at it, if you try various methods in windows they give different results. I have not seen this problem, have you tried scandisk on the card? Try backing it up, formatting it in the 7k and then restoring it?

how do you drag and drop to and from in songmanager i certainly cant when i try all i get is the black refusal circle,i have just lost 7 folders trying to back up an sd disk onto cd i cannot find them any where.
i am using the 8mb sd but according to the computer it is 1.5mb used when it is supposed to be empty, i am not a computer buff but do i know a some and this songmanager is drivin me mad. eek eek:
can any one help?.PS(is my spelling right Walter) :

[This message has been edited by kozykeys (edited 10-09-2002).]

"You would be much better off converting to 7k format first and then copying, you won't have to do all the file moving on the sd card. Besides 5000 format will use up all your space unnecessarily."

I guess I didn't make myself clear, Alec. That is exactly what I do. I have to get the KN5000 file into the KN7000 before it can be converted to a KN7000 file. Once the file is in the KN7000 the most time consuming process has ended. I copy as many files as I can from a floppy. Then I edit the file name at the KN. Then I save the file to the same location as a KN7000 file removing those options like sequencer files that I don't need. Then I move the files wherever I need. The song manager is just too slow because I can only move one file at a time and the file transfer takes so long. And, unless I'm missing something, I am still limited to short file names which means that I still have to edit the file name and resave at the KN7000. I just don't follow the suggestion that the song manager would make things easier or faster. The things that I have to do at the KN7000 are still the same except for file moves.

I looked at the files with an editor and you are right. The names can be edited that way. But I don't want to confuse readers of this forum with that approach because very few of them have the knowledge to use an editor in that manner. I want to try to do this with the tools that Technics has provided.

I am not willing to risk the work I have done by doing a format and restore on my SD card until I get a second card. I'll try the backup and restore when I get the second card. I do backup the card to the laptop often as I do the file transfers. I'm not worried about the erroneous readout of space used. I'll tackle that later.

you misunderstand Bob, in 7k format you can transfer 20 files to a folder in one go because you can fit 20 files on a floppy. In 5k format you cannot fit 20 files to a floppy and thus have to do all the individual file copying and then deleting you talked of in order to fill a folder with 20 files. All this is unnecessary if you plan your folders in advance with the 20 files you want on each floppy. Then all the moving is not necessary. When I wanted 20 customs in the one folder, the individual moving was by far the most time consuming part of the job, therefore anything to remove this is a big bonus.

If you want to rename in the conventional manner on the 7k you have to load and save anyway but that's not what I described.

I've done many backups, merges and restores and it works well.

Kozy, a backup compresses into one file all the technics/midi/picture files on the card and saves it in a path you specify on the computer with a name that you specify. The contents of a card is not affected by a backup, only wiped with a restore.

the missing space is housekeeping space equivalent to the boot or fat area on a hard drive. It measures differently with every method you try...

I don't think I misunderstood, Alec. To do what you suggest means that I would have to first load each KN5000 file into the KN7000 and then save it right back to a floppy. That's two uses of the floppy drive. I would have to do this for all 20 files to fill a floppy so that I could then copy the floppy with the 20 files right back to the SD card. Somewhere along the way I would have to name the files as well. By the time I did all of that I could have moved all the files where I wanted them on the SD card several times.

Alec, Pardon my ignorance, but where is the KN7000mn.inf File ?

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Willum

Thanks alec
i can backup and restore now just needed a little help from the master.
thanks again
jan

Bob, sorry, you did misunderstand, I'm not using the floppy drive.
quote "the easiest way to convert to 7k format is to drag to and from song manager, taking out non-used file types options."

drag 5k format to 7k and back in song manager and you have 7k format on the computer without having loaded or saved anything with the floppy, and you have automatically cut down the unused sub-files too. Then you can easily arrange 20 files to a floppy in the folder order you want completely avoiding the need for any copy and delete operations on the 7k itself. All far easier than going through load and save physically on the 7k.

because I edited the file names the only operation I needed with the floppy is the entire disk copy, which goes surprisingly quickly in 7k format anyway.

I did hundereds of disks on the 8 MB card, backing up, formatting, then starting again with new files. Then I compound merged all the 8 MB backups into the folder order I wanted on a large card using song manager. Thus I knew what size of card was needed to accomodate my entire technics archive before I bought it.

Bill, in the card reader follow Private\Technics\KN7000.

if you copy entire floppies you can see the 6 character names, and the space for the 16 character names, thus you can rename everything very easily on the computer providing you do not shift an extra space which will put ALL the following names out of the display.

I do not want to encourage people to fiddle here if they are going to have all their folders disappear from view in the 7k display with one false click. Therefore *** B A C K U P *** before you fiddle. A hex editor is safest.

If I had time I would dig out Visual Basic (groan!) and have a go at a windows interface to make it easy for people, but am commissioned on other projects at the moment so will not have time before Xmas.

I have dragged folders to the card which the 7k can read as long as the correct data blocks in the inf file are filled in. However there are space calculation factors which depend on SD spec, so I just sent the info and suggestions to technics to see what turns up.

Again, don't blame me if anyone fiddles and then can no longer see the folder contents they spent hours creating...

Thanks Alec

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Willum

Alec, I think I finally figured out our disconnect. Your comments assume that I am working with KN6000+ files and I started this thread assuming the KN5000. I am quite certain that the Song Manager cannot be used to drag and drop a KN5000 file from the computer to the KN7000. At least I have never been able to make it work. It works fine for KN6000 files. I believe that KN5000 owners must move the file to the KN7000 via floppy disk copy or load. Then after the file is in KN7000 format they can use the Song Manager. If you have some KN5000 stuff handy give it a try and let us know. Let me know if you need me to send some KN5000 stuff to you.

Hi Bob, no I've dragged both 5000 and 3000 original files to the 7k in song manager, and naturally they come back as 7k format once they've been loaded into the panel.

If I live long enough I may figure this all out. I went back into my old original floppy disks and tried to drag and drop a KN5000 format file with the Song Manager. It worked! Then I went to the KN5000, loaded a file from the hard disk and then saved it to a floppy disk. Tried it with the Song Manager and it also worked! But, the files that I want to transfer are the backup files from my hard disk that are now on CD. There is something unique about those files that prevent them from working with the Song Manager although they work fine when copied to a floppy and then loaded into the KN7000. If I try to use the Song Manager with any of my hard disk back up files, I get an error report that says “Error – Use transmission from the HOME PAGE”. Once I get that error I have to turn off the KN7000 and restart before any Song Manager functions work again. I don’t know if it’s worth more study or not. I’m about a third of the way through the transfer to the KN7000 using floppies for the transfer. It would have been so much easier if the USB interface worked like my cameras.

[This message has been edited by Bob Hendershot (edited 10-10-2002).]

Can't say I've had any problems with my backup files from sx hard drive apart from the obvious one that those starting with directory 00 prefix needed mass re-naming to be seen in song manager. Once in the song manager window all types transfer fine, even those from cd.