Dear fellow members,

The Technics Forum on the Synth Zone has been dominated by discussions about KN series keyboards. The infrequency of discussions on digital ensemble (the SX-PR series) and organs (the GN, FN, EA, GA and FA series) is quite discouraging, if not also reflecting the lack of diversity. I would also like to invite people to talk about a variety of issues other than those that largely pertain to how to use certain features of their musical instruments that they own or play.

Is there anyone out there who still own and play any of the sumptuous Technics organs?

Compared to organs, the limitations of any KN keyboard are only too apparent given that there is only a single keyboard with only three parts: RIGHT1, RIGHT2 and LEFT. (I do know that each part can be a layered composite sound.) The poor thing has to share three parts on a short five octave keyboard! I try to get around this by connecting a full 88-key SX-P50 via MIDI port(s) to a KN keyboard so that I have room for both hands to manoeuvre after the applying left/right split.

On the organs, there are two keyboards, each with four parts: ORGAN, SOUND1, SOUND2 and SOUND3. Adding the pedal keyboard, there are a total of nine parts!

On listening to recordings or live playing, the differences speaks for themselves! The texture, harmonic and countrapuntal features of organ music are superior, while the keyboard music is often just confined to featuring a main melody over an accompaniment texture. The digital ensemble music lies somewhere between the organ-keyboard spectrum.

An advanced organ player can even manage to play on both keyboards with one hand, and he or she can do the same with the other hand. Add both feet, and you get six different lines of music going at once. And you can have all of that on an organ even before adding the performance pads, automatic accompaniments and the sequencer parts.

Of course, you can also play an organ as if it is a KN keyboard by turning on the auto accompaniment and one-touch play.

I believe that what ultimately killed the popularity and sustainability of the organ line and its market is not the enormous size and lack of portability but the enormous price tag. I'll leave you to picture and ponder on the effects of Greed, Absurdity, Over-Pricing and Marketing Tactics that backfired. There probably have been other reasons as well. Perhaps some of you can enlighten us.

One of my cousins wrote on the 3rd of January 2005:

Kind Regards,
=========
KHAI-WEI
=========

Hi,

I still own, but now rarely play my GA1. In 1999, I paid around $6000 new for it with a trade on a older Technics portable organ.For the last 15 months, I've been playing on the KN7000 on top and the PA50 on the bottom. Far superior sounds/rhythms on the arrangers vrs. the organ, not even close. I rarely used more than 2 voices at once on the upper right hand, but I do occasisonally miss having 2 voices on the left (bottom). The only other advantage to organs are the big built-in speakers. Since I comp with the left hand and read from lead sheets, I don't need a full size keyboard. It took a little to get used to, since the left foot helped me keep min time. I'll keep the organ as a back-up, or to practice on if the arrangers are tied up at a gig.

Mark

Dear Khai-Wei,

I own and play both the F-100 organ and the KN7000. Many of your comments with regard to a live performance are true. Considering both instruments, there is nothing more thrilling than hearing the theater organ sounds of the F100. It’s quite easy to give chills to the listener, even with a simple arrangement. However, I live in a small rural community. There are just a handful of organ/keyboard players that have any interest in these instruments. As a result I find it necessary to reach out to musicians in other communities with recordings.

Here is where the KN7000 shines, due to the far superior orchestral sounds, much more flexible Composer program and the finest inboard sequencer I’ve ever used. As you suggest, the technique of playing the keyboard is very different than playing the organ, however my only concern is the listener’s experience in hearing the final CD. And even counting the organ voices, the KN7000 wins hands down.

My best wishes,
Frank Bez

As an amateur "musician," I have to offer my few comments on this subject of the fabulous organs and other instruments. I agree they are spectacular to listen to, but only accomplished musicians can play them, and play them well! I think among the members of this Synth Zone Forum, there are probably a number of professional players and really expert musicians on board, and the comments in this thread may be appropriate to them. But, also among all of the total number of members here, there are at least a few of us who, like me, are amateurs, who, also like me, cannot read music, or who have only limited or no musical education, and cannot really even classify ourselves as "musicians," but who can still enjoy the magic musical pleasures of plucking away on a keyboard like the fabulous Technics 5000, 6000, 6500, 7000, or even some of the older KN models.

So, I agree that perhaps the KN keyboards are limited to those of you who can really play. But for those of us who are hobbyists, who play by ear, with limited or no musical knowledge or education, or who are less than professional in ability, the KN allows us the wonder of playing and enjoying a unique musical experience that no organ or more complicated keyboard can. I love to sit at my 7000, play a familiar melody, and chord it by ear alone, and then add the automatic sounds offered by the KN keyboard. When they are all put together, I sound like I can really play!! And that is magic to me!

Therefore, I love reading and learning from all the comments and suggestions that this Forum provides us, regardless of "talent" and musical ability, to help us get the most out of our KN keyboards. It would seem to me that perhaps the organists should have their own Forum; if one does not exist, perhaps it can be started.

For whetver they are worth, those are my comments. Nonetheless, I enjoyed the comments from all of you herein, even if they are not relevant to me. Thanks for letting me get my "two cents worth" in!

Ted Rose

Hi all,

On this topic, although they seem to have differing views, I agree with both Khai-Wei and Ted.

Yes, the organs were over-sized, over-hyped and definately over priced; that's about the only way I can put it. I started out, many years ago, on a Yamaha double-keybaord organ. Bear in mind that this was in te late 1970's so it was a bit of a dinosaur to what's availible these days. My first single keyboard / synth, strangely enough made by Panasonic, Technics' poor relation, came as a breath of fresh air as I found I had a lot more control over the actual sounds I was playing and also was able to concentrate more on what my hands were doing, so the results started to improve litterally from day one.

I've got to also agree, as I'm sure that Nigel & Bill would, that this part of SynthZone is not just for us KN owners but for all Technics 'board and organ users regardless of ability.

Ted's quite right though. The level of control of the 'board surpasses that of any organ I've had the privilege to play. Your comments about the number of voices seem to be in error. Once you've mastered the technique of sequencing and step recording (sorry Bill to bring that one back up) you actually have the possibility of up to 15 voices playing at the same time (14 if you want an auto accompliment) plus an extra track for control codes. Don't think that I'm saying 'boards beat organs every time; they both have there good points and bad points. To sum up, if you're happy with your instrument, learn how to get the most out of its' functions and play on.

If, however, you're not, time to reach for the Amex.

Enough said,

Regards,

Mark

PS Update on Luce

As some of you may have seen on the International news, a number of the volunteer groups have been moved from southern Sri Lanka to the eastern part of the island where they've discovered numerous villages which have been affected/devastated by the Tsunami. There's a problem though as it takes them closer to Tamil territory and there's the danger of incursions by Tamil terrorist soilders for aid etc. She's still in touch each day by SMS and Email so I'll keep you posted.

I'm sure our thoughts are with all the volunteers working in the region.

Mark

Dear All,

Hi! It is encouraging to read the responses on this topic.

I would like to clarify emphatically that I was by no means taking an elitist stance of any sort in my assessment of the differences that exist in playing different instruments. And such a comparative assessment was neither predicated on playing ability nor on a particular instrumental perspective. Rather, it was predicated on what each type of instrument can offer the player, and how each can enable or constrain by virtue of its construction. In other words, I was merely pointing to the intrinsic capabilities of these different instruments based on their designs and functionality. On these reasons, and since all three of them ---- namely the keyboards, organs and digital ensembles under the Technics brand ---- have automatic accompaniments and sequencers anyway, the differences therefore do not lie in what can assist the player, but in what they allow the player to do physically. Hence, all other things being equal, there are inevitably those differences that I have objectively identified between them; the ability of the player being irrelevant. I thought that I made these points quite clear previously and hope that this present posting will dissipate any misunderstanding that might have taken place. Phew!!

Khai

It's amazing what a University education can do for you - wish my parents could have afforded it all those years ago...

hang on Roger,what about me,a Dr. Barnado's boy.

------------------
rog.

Roger, (Mepstead)
Perhaps you too could have become a "professional student" unaware of the social graces required of interacting with your fellow man.
Enough said, I'm out of here.
Walt

[This message has been edited by Walt Meyer (edited 01-11-2005).]

Dear Walt Meyer,

I would much prefer understanding to typecasting people, even though the former takes more time and patience, and requires the suspension or reassessment of initial judgements or vilifications. Isn't that one of "the social graces required of interacting with your fellow man", or to be less sexist or chauvinistic, "your fellow human"?

Anyway, thank you for taking the leap of faith in visiting this thread in the first place, even if it has subsequently turned out to be not quite your cup of tea.

[This message has been edited by Khai (edited 01-11-2005).]

Dear RMepstead, Roger Brandon Bradbury and Walt Meyer,

I know from first-hand experience that some people who already have or are still securing university education or degree(s) cannot even write, think or behave half as well as you do. So, a university education is no panacea. It is often up to the individual.

Strictly speaking, English is my fourth tongue or language. And I am hardly perfect, at least not all the time anyway.

Khai

[This message has been edited by Khai (edited 01-12-2005).]

Hi Walt,

Count to 200

Cheers Barry

Khai,

You sure passed your typing ability
with honours.

Bazz

Hi All,

I think you are all missing the point and that is if the organ, piano or keyboard is your first love, it will always be your first love. I have always played piano and over the years have played accoustic and electric pianos and I currently own a Technics PR900 electric piano which is still my favourite simply because all the 'gimmicks' can be switched off and the instrument played as a straight piano. I also have a KN7000 which never fails to amaze me whether played straight or with rhythms and I play it daily. However, now and again I get what I call "itchy fingers" and this is the time I play my piano straight (with great enjoyment I might add). Having said that, at every opportun-ity I will also play an accoustic piano simply because it is still my first love and I cannot resist the temptation to play it but I have to say, being very much an amateur,the keyboard make me sound "almost" and I repeat "almost" professional in comparison with the other instruments and has enabled me to make some near decent CD recordings which is also great fun to do.

I wonder whether there are others who agree with me on this?

Aud (U.K.)

all,

IMHO, from perspective of political economy, the disappearing (in whatever senses) of organs and the emerging (again, in whatever ways) of keyboards, has the similar trend (and nicely coincides!)with the disappearing of community markets and the emerging supermarkets, or the same case with local restaurants and fast-food, or the likes --- in short, the 'instant' has taken over what used to exist.

this does not inherently mean bad, nor good. it depends on how we are aware and sensitive how power is involved.

as some people say that organs will never be totally replaced by keyboards, it is also true with 'market' over 'supermarket' or 'ginger-lemonade' over 'coke'....

what i think i would definitely reject is that if the "another world is possible" is no longer applicable in music instrument industry...

cheers,
y

Dear yanuar-n,

Perhaps you have studied political economy too. Thank you for your views, and I did not expect such a quick reply indeed.

Excuse my ignorance, what does IMHO stand for?

Khai

Dear Audrey Turner,

Hi! Thank you for your insight.

Speaking of love, I feel that the order in which I fell in love with a particular (type of) musical instrument is not that important or influential to me. I always try to find ways to love it, understand it and work with/around it.

Having said that, I like the keyboard, piano and organ (whether digital or acoustic) as long as any of them has touch sensitivity and the manual(s) is/are not too short. Therefore, I tend to feel rather restricted on the KN series (only in terms of what I can do physically, as previously explained in my earlier posts). Fortunately, I can get around this by connecting a full 88-key SX-P50 via MIDI port(s) to a KN keyboard so that I have room for both hands to manoeuvre, especially after applying the left/right split.

With respect to the central discussion in this thread, am I still one of the members who has been "missing the point", as you put it?


[This message has been edited by Khai (edited 01-11-2005).]

I guess I have just one more comment for this thread, and that is: what actually IS the point of all this discussion? Can't we all get back to the real Forum issues and discussions about music, hints, ideas, suggestions, happy thoughts, etc. about our keyboards, organs, pianos, whatever instruments we prefer?! Or am I missing the point? If I want a philosophical discussion, perhaps I should go elsewhere; I don't think this is the place for antagonistic rhetoric. or, as I asked above, am I missing the point????

Enough said on my part!

Ted

Dear Ted,

Hi! A member such as Audrey Turner was expressing her deep feelings for her musical instruments. And her views are legitimate and important. yanuar-n was providing his point of view on the decline of the organ from the "perspective of political economy" and "power" (which could be elaborated according to Foucaultian analysis). Other members provide their personal commentaries on certain aspects that they observed to be present in this topic.

Just take one for example. Read Audrey Turner's entire post carefully again and you will be able to verify for yourself that her post has qualified significantly for your own criteria: "the real Forum issues and discussions about music, hints, ideas, suggestions, happy thoughts, etc. about our keyboards, organs, pianos, whatever instruments we prefer".

Furthermore, if you would kindly review the correspondences in other topics, you would certainly find that many of the discussions have drifted in unpredictable directions and migrated into tangential areas, whether or not they are cursory or detailed, technical or philosophical, and antagonistic or rhetorical.

After all, you did submit a fair amount in the fourth posting of this topic, and even offerred your support and enthusiasm as follows:



Clearly, your views are sufficiently democratic and a pleasure to read. I hold you in very high esteem.

Khai


[This message has been edited by Khai (edited 01-11-2005).]

Dear All,

To increase understanding and broaden the scope further, my earlier comments to RMepstead, Roger Brandon Bradbury and Walt Meyer on university education are not in any way an attack on or a disrespect towards any specific individual(s). I value all forms of good education myself, whether they are delivered at home, school, colledge or university, or in a tribe, clan or community; face-to-face or by correspondence. And all of them have produced and sustained rich sources harbouring musical genres and practices that even the rhythms and styles on KN7000 can barely cover.

Khai

[This message has been edited by Khai (edited 01-11-2005).]

Hi All,

First let me say that for me I agree with Audrey. I have always loved the piano and now that I have the PR54 I find I play it as a piano without all the bells and whistles more often than I did when I had the KN6000.

Over the years I've had several organs and I loved them all (though no Technics) but they were not pianos. As a non-professional I find that I don't always care if I sound great because I'm only playing for me anyway.

As for the declining sales of Organs and in many respects keyboards I believe that it has a lot more to do with the change in "music" than anything else. I do not feel that much of the music that young people listen to today is conducive to being played on ensemble type keyboards.

Organs especially sound great when playing grand instrumental but try to find a radio station that is playing any pop 40 instrumental music. When I was growing up I listened to pop 40 music but there were still plenty of instrumental songs included in that music. Songs like Telstar and others led people like me to want to play an organ and keyboards. It’s not much different than accordion music. I like to hear a good accordion player but there are not many left.

Midi music has also changed that way young people play music. Using low cost programs like Band-In-A-Box I can create an entire song and play it without ever touching an instrument or even knowing how to play one.


------------------
Heather- Leesburg, FL PR54

Dear Heather-Leesburg,

Hi! I am delighted to read your views about music, specifically your confirmation of Audrey's experience, and your mentioning of the ascendency of MIDI, music arranger and sequencer as an explanation for the decline of physical playing of music, and thus also of the global sales of musical instruments.

Like you, I sometimes play the PR604 (which is similar to the PR54) "as a piano without all the bells and whistles". However, when it is rather tempting to push some buttons, I can retreat to the more puritanical P50, the portable concert grand.

What strikes me as being quite strange is that Technics has not bothered to endow most if not all of the digital ensemble SX-PR series with performance pads that are commonly found on the newer SX-KN keyboards. Certainly, none of the organ series has them. I wonder who can provide a definitive answer to my observation. I suspect that it may have something to do with the chronology of introductions of these instruments ---- the newer ones inherit the new or extra feature(s).

Yes, songs like "Telstar" are very melodious and inspiring. Interestingly, I have played "Telstar" on the organ quite a few times in the past, but can't recall ever playing it on the piano.

Khai

[This message has been edited by Khai (edited 01-12-2005).]

Hi all,I have been playing for about 25 years in as an amateur starting with several organs then to several key boards,
mainly "Technics" and have owned 3 digital ensemble which I play now (pr604), the reason being is the true piano sound, the 88 notes to expand, weighted keys which allows you to put more feeling into the sound and play it as a pure piono or use all the accompliments etc for enancing your playing when you want use it, plus you don't have to split point for left and right hand accompliments. If you have the room - this is the one for me.This is of course in my opinion and that is all i'm saying what is best for me, but I understand everyone has what is right for them.I agree with Audrey Turner.

I note on the prevous posting from "khai" he mentioned he sometimes played the pr 604
could he help me please on my question posted 12/01/2005 "Lyrics with song manager"
regards and thanks Joe

Dear Rotty,

It is a pity that someone else could not come to your rescue. I shall try to remember and look into it when I next visit my brother and his family, who acquired the PR604 at a really good price due to my contact with a friend and distributor as well as my persuasion to him that it is the preferred model over the other options. Since they have little experience, solving this problem for you will also help them. My brother is a very busy dermatologist and music lover who lives a fair distance away.

Khai