compared to each other which is the better product?

Roland Fantom S88 Sampling Workstation Keyboard (88 Keys with Hammer Action)

or

Yamaha MOTIF 8 Music Production Synthesizer Keyboard (with Balanced Hammer Action)

I found the Yamaha more difficult to program and use during dynamic performances. I have an original Fantom and a Fantom X and love them. I program all my own sounds, so factory presets are not much of a factor. With the 88's I think the best thing would be to play the weighted keyboards and see which one feels better. You really cannot go wrong with either machine, though - so maybe even consider which on you can get the best deal on.

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"Rock While You Can"
http://www.lastband.com

Going for the original motif or the Fantom S? Why not Motif ES or Fantom X?

I'd definitely vote for roland then. The Fantom S can be expanded with 4 SRX cards, which i explained in the other thread. the Motif Classic is not nearly as expandable, and the stock sounds won't fit your orchestral style as well. But, if you don't plan to expand the Roland Fantom S, I'd maybe recommend motif for the better piano sound, maybe a toss on string sounds. Motif flute is much better than Fantom flute. Motif better percussion. Everything else a toss. Fantom S with SRX expansions will by far outshine Motif though.

Unless it were necessary to save a little cash, I would think the best idea would be to look at the updated versions of both keyboards, ie.; Fantom X and Motif ES. I currently own the Fantom X8 and until recently owned the Motif ES8.

In my opinion, the Motif generally has better (warmer) sounds. The pianos (Grand) are about even between the two keyboards with perhaps the MO being a little less lost in reverb effects. Neither keyboard has fast enough action to allow me to play "Angry Young Man" (Billy Joel) effectively.

Yamaha has done a better job with the electric pianos in general. They just sound more like the "real" thing. The strings are about even. A lot of the Roland patches sound a bit harsh and will need to be tweaked. I found the great majority of patches on the MO to be excelent without any manipulation. I rather liked the Motif's acoustic and electric guitars. There are over 1700 sequences that can be used to create strumming and picking riffs with the MO. The Fantom on the other hand uses an arpegiator - which I have not had time to work with.

If you gig regularly, both of these keyboards will require a strong back. They are beasts in every sense of the word. The Fantom by FAR has the better operating system and with the full color screen it is quite easy to navigate. The Fantom seems to be more intuitive. Roland has done a very good job with the use of "favorites" both in setup and implementation. This allows you to create up to 8 banks of 8 of your favorite patches. (not performances I don't think)

I find the Patch names on the right hand side of the MO to be very difficult to read, especially at night. (They are small black letters on silver-grey background). I never quite figured out how to use the "performance" mode on the Motif so that I could layer patches or split the keyboard. This was inportant to me for live playing. The Fantom is easy and while some of the directions may require you to become a rocket scientist, I was creating perfomance setups on the Fantom within 15 minutes.

Here's a neat concept. As a piano or keyboard player, have you ever been in the situation where you were maybe playing horns and organ on a "split" keyboard and needed to get to a piano patch quickly WITHOUT having to jump through a gazillion screens. Roland has placed a piano button on the left side of the front panel on the Fantom (88 key only). At any point you can hit this button and instantaneously be playing the piano of your predetermined choice. If you need to go back to the patch (s) prior to hitting the button, just hit the button again. You can even lower and raise the "lid" on the grand piano. (I know, it's kind of gimicky but my friends thought it was pretty cool)

Yamaha has added the "Megavoice" technology to the newer Motif and I have found the megavoices to be a bit more playable with the Motif than say the Tyros. Roland handles their velocity sensitive/multiple samples a bit differently and I think the Fantom's version of "megavoice" is a litte easier to play with. However, the Motif DOES have better overall sounds. They are quite realistic with little or no tweaking. That's pretty amazing!

If you're a sampling junkie I think you'd be better off with the Roland. How about being able to store 1 gig of sampling information easily retrived via a pc card? The MO can only handle 512mb. The Roland has a really cool feature called skip back sampling whereby you can record (by simply pushing ONE button) what you're playing and then play it back immediately. All in all the Fantom is the better one to gig with as far as moving through screens and how it's laid out. You would have thought that Yamaha would have created the newer Motif ES with a larger screen. Perhaps look down the hall and see as PSR 3000 or Tyros. Good Grief!!!

BOLT ONS:

Ya know, most of those SRX cards (Roland) and PLG cards (MO) are not worth the price on a useable sound per dollar. Let's face it, when you buy one of these EXPENSIVE cards, just how may sounds do you really use? I always wonder, just how many drum kits does a person need, how many orchestras, how many $%^%$# clavinets etc.

I purchased the Brass card and the Ultimate Keys cards for the Fantom. This is close to $400.00. That's a lot of money Roland!!! I haven't spent much time with the brass yet so I won't comment. The Ultimate Keys, well it depends. My (Roland's) VR-760 has far superior organ sounds than ANY of the organ (read B-3) on the Fantom. That's too bad. Quite frankly I haven't figured out how to tweak the Rotor effect on the Fantom or to make it work with a foot pedal - so I guess I'll keep the VR-760. The Rhodes and Wulitzer patches are fine but how many variations of them do you need? Clavinets, you could fill an entire warehouse full of the number of clavs on the card. The synths were fair but nothing really stood out - without a lot of tweaking. A couple of melotron, nothing fabulous. So, was I a bit disappointed...yes.

Now for the MO. Yeah, I can whine about the expense of the PLG boards. This is true, however, I think Yamaha has, once again, done a better job with their sampling. I owned the Piano plug in board and the

Stretched Grand was simply gorgous! Yamaha has a new triple strike piano board coming out soon. Is it worth $279.00, I guess it all depends?

The DX7 board was a lot of fun. Basically you own a Motif and a DX7 ALL IN ONE. The software for programming the DX7 via an attached PC was fairly easy to negotiate. The Virtual Acoustic Modular Synthesis Plug-in Board was pretty cool too. Generally only one note at a time, but the voices were VERY VERY realistic. Use as breath controller and really amaze the audience.

So, I had a fully loaded Motif ES with THREE ADDIN BOARDS. Here's where it really gets cool and Yamaha and their partership with Keyfax blows the blacknotes off of anything Roland has to offer.

Check out WWW.Motifator.com. Look at the voice libraries. For about $100.00 you can download BOTH the Vintage Keys and BKnees voice libraries. If you're really talented you could do all the programming yourself. These two little gems will Rock your world if you need REALLY AUTHENTIC SOUNDING keyboards from the 60's 70's and 80-'s. They are by far the best renditions of ANY vintage keys I have EVER heard or played - bar none!!! (expecially considering the low cost) Keyfax has progammed darn near exact duplicates of the Rhodes/DX7 with 10 lbs of delay for Styx's "Babe", there's a great electric piano for Stevie Wonder's "In the City). Looking to play "Won't Get Fooled Again or Baba O'Rielly? Well the keyboard patch sounds are already set up for you. How about Journey's Jupiter 8 on "Don't Stop Believing. Now you would think that Roland would have done this for you, but noooooooooo. Leave it to Yamaha.
Amaze the band with ELP's "Welcome Back My Friends" or play a little "Dark Side of the Moon for them. It's way too much fun!!!
The"Frankenstein" patch is a dud but oh well.

I spent hours doodlin' around with the Vintage Keys. Way too cool. Roland.....take a look and listen!!! Even the mellatrons (flute and string) were far superior to that of the Roland. And here's the thing. The Vintage Keys is $49.00 NOT $279. The Bknees organs were just as good. Yeah, their were a few duds in my view, but it's all subjective. Nothing's going to beat a real Hammond B3, but then how many of us want to back to lugging one of those land whales around? I have always favored a seperate modulation wheel and pitch bend wheel over a Roland stick. Yamaha controls it's rotors for the Leslie via the modulation wheel and of course you can leave the wheel all the way "up" for the fast speed. With the Roland you have to physcially hold the joystick forward. Thank you very much Roland but I need my left hand for playing, NOT holding you're stupid joy stick.

So, what's a musician to do. Well quite frankly for the type of Classic Rock I play, the Fantom covers all the bases. I have a simple rig now that includes the Tyros and the VR-760 as well as the Fantom. I primarily play piano, brass/sax and organ sounds with a few synths from time to time, and amongst the three keyboards I'm pretty well set.

Future: Well, I'd like to see Yamaha build a stripped down version of the Motif JUST LIKE Roland did with the Fantom. I'd like to have a lite version so I can use the PLG cards I didn't sell and of course the Vintage Keys and BKnees programmed voice libraries. Finally, I am very interested in the Roland G-70. My Tyros is becoming a little long in the tooth (and somewhat over rated) and it's time for a change.

Rock on folks!

R
[QUOTE]Originally posted by FAEbGBD:
[b]Going for the original motif or the Fantom S? Why not Motif ES or Fantom X?

I'd definitely vote for roland then. The Fantom S can be expanded with 4 SRX cards, which i explained in the other thread. the Motif Classic is not nearly as expandable, and the stock sounds won't fit your orchestral style as well. But, if you don't plan to expand the Roland Fantom S, I'd maybe recommend motif for the better piano sound, maybe a toss on string sounds. Motif flute is much better than Fantom flute. Motif better percussion. Everything else a toss. Fantom S with SRX expansions will by far outshine Motif though.


[This message has been edited by smythrocks (edited 12-02-2004).]

i went to sam ash recently and was shown both the Motif and the Roland phantom.

my dad was blown away by the Motif. we both decided that the Motif sounded supior to the Roland.

we also chose the lay out of the phantom to the motif. the screen the layout was far better.

the salesman stated he personaly liked the Motifs piano the best from the two.

im still at a loss. i got the price and everything for the Motif.

but the sounds are better, and thats what counts the most.

im not sure which is better for the long run.

spending a few grand is ridiculous at most. i couldnt imagine haveing to spend more, and i need to get the stand the dvd to work it and speakers to hear it.

8sigh* still at a loss, im drifting towards the Motif.

DOOR,
I really feel it's a personal preference. I chose the Motif over Korg's Triton and Rolands Fantoms. Probably because I own a Yamaha S90. After comparing the S90 to Tritons and Fantoms, (at the time I was not interested in sampling). I felt the feel of the S90 made the sounds even more expressive. It seems to me the Yamaha weighted keys are heavier than the Roland and Korg synths.

So when I wanted to upgrade my 76 key keyboard from a Roland XP-80 I stayed with Yamaha (went to an ES7) because primarily of the sound.

So now I'm using an S90 and an ES7. This may seem a little redundant but since I don't always use both boards for every gig, whether I use the ES7 or the S90, I'm always using the sounds I want most anyway.

Before you buy, get internet price quotes at every website you can, take the lowest to either Sam Ash or Guitar Center or where ever you shop. They should price match.

I got my ES7 for 1999.99. Which I thought was very good.


Bob
<><

smythrocks,
Being an S90 and ES7 owner, may I say setting up performances on these are really easy. I know you didn't quite figure it out, but it's really simple. You take an existing performance. Hit the edit button, then scroll to 1 of the 4 available patches and simply choose the patches you want. You can get them quickly with the category buttons. There's a limithi and limitlo button if you want to make a split. just hold down either the limithi or limitlo and press the actual hi or low note.

I use the SeqPlay mode on the S90 and the sequencer play mode with the "mixing" button on for the ES7. In both instances, sounds can be changed on the fly with one bottun. This gets you from that horns/organs split to piano and back again instantly.

I also think the S90 is the leaned out Motif/Motif ES. You can load the B's Knees and the Vintage Keys in the S90 as well as pop in the Plug cards. By the way, the Plug cards yamaha puts out are actual little synthsizers in their own right and not just added wave forms. They come with their own polyphony.!

I have the B's knees loaded in my ES7 and the Vintage Keys loaded in my S90. I have a blast with these boards.

I had the Ultimate Keys board in an XV-2020 I once had. I was disapointed with the B3 patches and wasn't really impressed with the EP's either. I much prefer the Yamaha sounds to the Rolands. Sorry Roland. But still may get a Roland VK8-M at some point. I do think the VK sound is good. But to be honest, I think Korg has the tone wheel sound down better than Roland does. The Korg CX3 is hot.

Anywho, I was also considering the VR-760 and alas, went with the ES7. I wasn't impressed with the VR-760's synth section. However, I do love the feel of the VR-760. I gave up feel for sound and much more features by choosing the ES7 over the VR-760, IMHO, that is.


Bob
<><

[This message has been edited by RW (edited 12-06-2004).]

Having read all this I'm now also confused!

Initially I wanted to go for a V-synth. Now it turned out that the next keyboard that I have to get has to be a weighted action 88 note workstation that can take care of all the boring Piano/Tuba crap so I can free up the CPU on my Mac to do better things.

I agree with everyone who picked the Motif over the Phantom.
FIrst of all I prefer heavy piano keyboard action. Second of all the Motif synths can be expanded with plug-in synths ; not just samples. I'm not too worried about the size of the display because I'm blind as a bat. Software editors and screen readers are my only hope when it comes down to editing.

-ED-