Okay. I see the future. I think...
I can feel this thread gradually getting to the bottom of the page and then disappearing in archives somewhere.

I wonder who will be responcible for that? God or the devil?
That will be a topic of our next discussion.

-ED-

Sheriff: Why did you say that this person travels all the world and kills people who do not believe the same way ? Jesus who is clearly the object of this miracle taught us to love our enemies. I don't understand where you got this opposite notion.

The devil's work is all trying to lead people astray from the true path to God. The true path to God leads to good things in this life and beyond. God proves that He is God in the best way He could. He does it by doing extraordinary miracles (not "ordinary" miracles I stress). The bible is FULL of it. Why ? Because nobody else can do it except God the creator. It is the Creator's unique signature !!

The bible teaches that we ought not to believe in ourselves but to believe God and His teachings. Because our beliefs are shaped by our environment, etc and oftentimes will lead us into trouble (chilhood abuse, our carnal nature, etc). In fact to sum up the whole Bible, it's all about loving God and loving our fellow men and women. You do those things and you will please God.

God's love is very personal. In fact if there is only ONE person to be saved, God will go out of His way and save that person. This is all explained clearly in the bible. But God also despised proud person who in spite of all the things God tried to bring them back, they rejected God outright.

And I don't understand why you say this miracle oil was in "random" shapes. It is NOT random. It is placed very artistically and strategically. In fact it was placed right on the eyes of Jesus with one picture. Then in another in the form of a heart with tiny droplets surounding the heart. It is very unique for every picture and the work of an intelligent being without any doubt !

Ed: if this topic disappears, I don't mind. I know if that is so, then God let it happened. It is probably for the best. God has many other ways to reach people. The devil is now scared I can tell you that. Because Heaven is knocking on someone's door right now.

"Knock-knock-knocking on Heaven's doo-oo-oo-oo-or"

-ED-

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 08-06-2005).]

@lukitoh: I'm glad to see that you're strong in your belief too.
Thank you for discussion! It was really refreshing me!!! But now my arguments are out but in some kind of way I think you're not far away from my way of belief...

@ED: Yeah! Music rules!!!

Sheriff: about your point "please do not believe as a result of this miracle" is well taken. But on the other hand, one must not be too rigid and ignore the obvious facts before them. Have you heard the story of Jesus fed thousands with five loaves of bread and two fish ? Is there any logic or "chemical effects" that can explain that ??? This miracle oil event that is unfolding before us now is very similar to that. It is obviously a miracle. As I mentioned I have seen other miracles as well. I think miracles are the only true signature of God the creator in which God proves and reveal/communicate to His creation that He is the boss. But if we choose to ignore this important revelation provided by God, then we ignore God in a way.

I agree that relationship with God is the most important thing rather than the miracles itself. However, the important question is whether that being that you have relationship with is a true God or an imaginary one or worse, the devil himself inside the person. The bible clearly teaches us that one of the BIG sign of a genuine believer is that signs and wonders shall follow them. And their life reflects Jesus' teachings. It's like if you are a close friend with Bill Gates, occasionally Mr. Bill will do something extraordinary through you because he is so powerful and rich.

We are living in the times of miracles right now. It should not be too hard to believe in Jesus. Many spectacular healings and miracles were done through the name of Jesus. God chooses His miracles and He does it by His own free will not because we expect Him to do certain things. One can complain all they want why such miracles are chosen and not others. But the plain fact is they are true miracles that can be only performed by an intelligent being (creator) who is in complete control of the law of nature instead of controlled by it.

Regarding strong belief: well, I rather have the RIGHT belief than the WRONG belief that I hold so tightly. Miracles are not the end but is a means to an end. By believing in miracles of God I was delivered from an acute allergy that caused me to have skin rash all over my body that caused many cuts and open sores for many months in an instant. Thank goodness for miracles.

Yeah cool. You're right. God and all. Totally. I agree. You can now relax. Relax brother. Jesus is with you. I'm sure he too appreciates other things like music. Liek relax dude. Deep breaths. In and out. In and out. Good!

Now. you've proven to be a worthy believer. God loves you and stuff. Really! Be cool now.

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 08-07-2005).]

Yes, I did! I love this story!!! I try to do so as good as I can! If I'm getting jobless friends I'm inviting them to eat with me. So, I'm getting less and less but we all are fedded by the same food. I don't feed thousands in one rush but before I'll be dead it'll be thousands...


I hope you're well again now!!!

Do you mean believing in miracles instead of believing in God? - In this case it could be a warning from our Creator!
Or do you mean believing in miracles of God AND believing in God at the same time? - In this case maybe you're slightly overdosed by the True Belief!


Whatever you see as a miracle of God. It's not a blame to not see all of His signs because we are humans - we're not perfect like Him...
In nomine padre et filii et spiriti sankti, Amen!

3351: Don't worry, I am relaxed otherwise I won't be writing and visitting the BAR and synthzone. I wrote these things for the people's benefit (not mine or defending my belief). It's just a very unusual event that even the smartest people around are baffled when they see these miraculous events such as that oil miracle. I thought people would find it interesting.

Sheriff: Not sure if you're serious to know about this stuff. About overdosed by "true belief": believing in the true God is the most important thing. The miracles will follow, OK ? But if one does not believe in "extraordinary" miracles then one might just shut an important door that might save him/her in certain difficult problems, right ? If I did not believe that God still performs miracles (better wording maybe), I probably would still have that acute rashes all over my body now. Or those people will still have their defective feet and blind eyes all their lives !

I wonder if you believe the story of the five loaves bread and two fish, why you are so skeptical about the oil miracle ? Just curious.

Well, I dont really believe this story in that form it was mentioned. In my opinion the Bible is a historical book with many unlogical sequences. Nevertheless, you can learn a lot about the human's life style in earlier years. But I didn't find my Belief inside this book. God's arguments has changed over the years (chapters). So, it's logical to me that this kind of Belief doesn't make any sense.

I found my way through the voice in my heart...
Maybe, I have a hot wire to our Lord!?! He's calling me day by day...
Oups? Sorry, it was 'Karel Gott' who called me...
No, just kidding...

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 08-08-2005).]

About God's arguments changed over the years: there is definitely a shift between the old testament and the new BUT it was mentioned and if one is careful enough will draw conclusions that they are all part of the grand scheme of things right from the beginning in the book of Genesis in fact. From the sacrifices of animals, then the book of Isiah when it talks about the perfect sacrifice that is to come (not animals), etc. So, it is not that God suddenly changes His mind. Even if so, nobody can blame God. After all He is the boss ! It does not matter whether it makes sense to anyone or not. In fact if you look at nature, such as the duality properties of light is seemingly contradiction. Or why God created certain things that seemingly unneeded. It does not make sense to most people. But the fact is all are obviously created by an intelligent being.


The million dollar question is how does one know the voice inside is the REAL God ?


But I think I know the answer.... you guessed it..... miracles, prophecies are the real signatures of God ! God of the bible uses these things a lot to show that it is God that is speaking. Philosphies, words, etc are not powerful enough....God wants to show His power to authenticate His message.