And how should we follow Him if we don't understand His words? If He really is a God then He should know that we can't understand a God's thinking or His unlogical signs. Maybe that's the reason for so many different christian comunities today? About 2,000 years after the life of Jesus there's nobody in our world who knows his real words and his true job. The original scripts are probably lost - all we have are translations which were made by people who lived a long time after Jesus died. So, I'm really sceptic against the Bible...


In my case there were two intelligent beings who created me - my parents!!!


Is that really necessary? I mean He created the whole universe. Who else should have done that? We all are living miracles and we can see His wonderful Creation day by day. Even if we're dreaming we are able to feel the power of the Creation. Please, tell me, is there any more that a God could do to show His power and might? What are oil drops in heart form or tears from Madonna statues compared with the whole universe?

Another point is: If the Creator has the absolute might and the total enlightenment then He should have create the humans as true believers. But He made some mistakes!
1. He created 5 arch angels and one of them was Luzifer!!!
2. He banished Luzifer from the paradies instead of killing him. So, He created the Hell!!!
3. He created us as an image of Himself without to bind us with a fixed Belief. So, we will have to decide for ourselves which way to go!!!

This isn't really perfect for a perfect being! Why did He create good AND evil? Is He sitting in front of a PlayStation and playing wargames? And we are the statists in this game...

BTW: The book of Genesis is somewhat lacking! They forgot to translate the following passage:
"On the 8th day God created Rock'n'Roll!"

I have to totally agree with Sheriff there. God doesn't need to prove his existance through some Mickey Mouse miracles.
I am a living proof of the fact that god exists. Simply because nobody else is capable of creating a miracle like me!!!

Oh man. Just agreee with them believers. Please! Let them believe. After all if they truely believe in miracles then they really can find better things to do then convince others and defend their beliefs. So if someone here is absolutely certain that the miracle oil is a sign of god tby all means! Believe that. No need to convince others though. Especially when things get way pass the point of being absurd.

-ED

The bible is the only written words of God that was translated and printed by mankind. Anything that mankind do, well it is not perfect. But at the very least, if you really want, you can get the main things that God is trying to say in the Bible. It is quite clear to many people. So, if you are not clear about it, I suggest you find a good "authentic" Christian that had those signs and wonders that follow them and ask your detailed questions. Look: Do you want man-made philosophies that made sense to you or the true God's words which does not totally make sense to you ? I pick the latter. Hey at least I pick God's words that had REAL power over the universe rather than man-made philospophies that had little power in comparison. At least I have some hope when I am in situations where no man can help me.

You forgot something about who created you: who created your parents, and your grandparents, and great grandparents, and so on. Not just your parents, right ! I know you're just jesting but at some point, there must be a question who created the universe with such intelligent designs ?

The reason God created these "mini extraordinary miracles" is to show people that God is still in charge. I think it's pretty obvious to most. I don't understand why it's hard to grasp that ?

Mistakes by God ? That is a possibility. So what ? God is still God even when He makes mistakes. So, are we going to say, there is no possibility that God makes mistakes. So, if the so-called God makes mistakes then that is not a true God. If we do that, then I think we are being too arrogant to ourselves.

About your concerns on Lucifer, hell, etc: good point but why should you bother yourself too much about it ? I know this that we are given free will so it gives God greater pleasure to love Him out of our own free will. Maybe an analogy: Would you like to marry a wife that is forced to marry you instead of loving you willingly ?

I think I can make it simple: TEST what you believe NOT whether it makes sense to you or not but whether it's TRUE or not. Just like the law of gravity that two objects no matter how heavy will fall at the same rate if dropped from the same location and the same time. It does not seem to make sense at first but the fact says exactly opposite to our sense. The whole pivot of Christianity is not about philosphies but there is real POWER and real miracles in the words of God and proves beyond shadow of doubt that it's true in its message. Lets not concern ourselves with misprints, little discrepancies but to check whether these things are true or not.

So if Sheriff and I agreed with you on everything and totally and unconditionally accepted the fact that god is trying to send us a message through miracle old flowing out of nothing would you then go away???

Seriously man. There is no argument here. None what so ever. Even though I still agree with Sheriff I can also tell that there's a lot of truth to things that you say and examples that you give.

I don't think anybody can be right or wrong about something that they don't entirely understand. A guess is about all we're all in title too when it comes down to religion and faith.

So miracle or not the oil is still flowing out of nothing. What it means is only for us to guess. Are we playing who can guess right? What is happenning here?

-ED-

And up from the ground came a bubbling crude ... black gold ... Texas tea ....


Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

If god is perfect,then there should be NO mistakes or errors,the bible should be 100% accurate.If you say you must have faith and believe,then the same could be said for all the other religions, they will say have faith and believe.So if one religion is right then the others are wrong.We only have around 70-80 years on this earth.you have religions and governments which TAKE CONTROL of your lives,from the school with your education which is decided from the higher authorities through to your adult life,you are expected to do as you are told but when you ask awkward questions,they either shrug you off with excuses ,or who are you to question, just believe? Brainwashing is a term that is used by governments when people change ie,terrorists,but we are all brainwashed and controlled by our own country.why should the laws work only one way and not apply to all? Because the church and governments work hand in hand.In Genesis we are told that ADAM AND EVE had 2 sons at the beginning CAIN and ABEL,CAIN KILLED ABEL ,and so CAIN was bannished abroad,the next son born was SETH,through SETH,S WIFE??? who was she?? produced future generations.So when you ask questions like these from the people who represent the church WHAT DO THEY SAY.oh err umm err.In the past people were kept ignorant,do as you are told, don,t ask questions and put money in the plate,clever thing education,so long as you don,t know too much.

[This message has been edited by nardoni2002 (edited 08-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by nardoni2002 (edited 08-09-2005).]

3351: not sure why you want me to go away. I thought we're all cool here, no ? I'm just sharing my thoughts. If you feel offended, I really don't see why. Did I hurt you in anyway ? I don't understand. We have different opinions but that's no reason to have enmity. (Nigel is watching as you know, better play nice) Also remember, I started the thread..hmmm.

Nardoni: Can God make mistakes ? Unlikely but I say it's possible. But one thing I know, God is smarter than anyone or all of us put together. Who are we to define what God should be like ? Then that God is the fruit of our thoughts/imaginations if we are the ones who define God. It's like saying, our parents should be flawless according to our standards. The real world is not like that. Our parents for some turned out to be very different than that of our ideals ! Our job is to determine which of these so-called gods is the REAL God, the creator of the universe. And then to get to know God which takes a lifetime.

If you are in a group where they take control of your lives like you mentioned, then maybe you should find another group. It should be a liberating and nourishing experience IMO. Here in USA, you are free to join any group you want. I say don't worry about the past, or those "controlling/brain washing" people. At my church and all the churches that I know in my area, nobody is forced to put any money on the offering plates. It's all voluntary. But one thing I recommend is that the church should exhibit some characteristics of God...things like power, miracles, prophecies...just like in the Bible. And the people should exhibit kindness, goodness, love , joy, peace.... (good stuff). It won't be perfect most of the time but should at least exhibit those characterisitics most of the time. Heck, you can establish your own church and then you don't have to worry about controls, money, etc. You make sure that it's CLEAN ! It's not very hard to do, you know. We're living in modern times now, thank God.

You mentioned "just believe" when you asked certain clergies: they either don't have the answer or lack time and patience toward you. Christianity should not be a blind faith experience. And I believe God will have some provisions for that. That is why God created these miracles so reasonable people can be awaken and ponder on them and hopefully faith may arise.

Actually I am not offended. Nor I want to kick you out of this forum. Nor I am the type to be intimidated by administration. I thought it was obvious. I follow the rules just liek everyone else.

Anyway. have you read what I've posted after my joke about you having to go away?

I just don't understand you. what is it that you want? In your replies it comes across as if you feel that you are a better christian because your faith is stronger than the faith of those who disagree with you. Even if that's not the case it does come across that way. Be careful. Some people might be offended by that attitude. Even if it is not intentional.

You said that your intent is to share opinions. That's great but forgive me if I state the obvious. It seems as if you have posted here about something that really fascinates you and expected a certain kind of a reply
Obviously everyone replied with what they wanted instead of writing what you wanted or expected to hear (well read in this case ). Why is it so shocking to you? Must you now argue and try to persuade everyone who disagrees with you and chooses not to believe in miracles?

I do not see the point to this discussion at all. So there's oil flowing. Now what? Of coarse some will see it as a sign of god, some will think that it is a trick, some will look for scientific proof etc. What are you trying to do? Where is this going?

-ED-

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 08-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 08-09-2005).]

2 points, 1st, according to the bible GOD is perfect,so perfection means no flaws,no mistakes,after all the Devil was a fallen angel because of pride.2nd in the usa there are loads and loads of breakaway churches,as i stated before the bible and religion should say the same thing,because they don,t you get breakaways,you can,t go from one to another to find the right one, you don,t live long enough,you are lucky to find the one that is right for you.remember the saying beware of the people that tickle your ears with their words,think about it.

Ed: OK, so we're cool then. What is it that I want ? Not much, I was just excited to see that extraordinary miracles. Just like someone who is excited who just got a new job, a new keyboard, a new whatever. If someone has some new insights then that would be quite interesting. But if there is something that I can chime in from my experience or reasonings that could benefit them then I will freely share. If it does not benefit you, then by all means do not read the thread further but I think you might find it interesting.

Honestly, my faith is not that great really. I have lots of knowledge compared to non-Christians. Those people that God uses in healing others, perform miracles often, prophesy hidden pasts and futuristic things are the ones that have great faith. I have seen a number of people that had great faith in church meetings that I attended. It still amazes me when they happen.

You asked, so what ? Where is it going ? : it will take whatever turns that people wish. Sometimes to the left, right, up or down. I don't control it.

"Expecting certain kind of reply": any reply is allright by me. But if it's different from mine that's ok too. I just stated my reply and hopefully we all learned from the experience. If all the replies are positive then that is good, if all negatives then I want to know why. Maybe there is something I can learn in the negative responses.

Nardoni: About perfection, I know that God had regrets on the whole humanity in the days of Noah. That was the reason of the flood. God wanted to start over. We can probably say that God's decisions/creations were perfect in the beginning but mankind ruined it. So I'm not totally sure about this perfection deal.

About "beware of people that tickle your ears": what they said must conform to the written words of God if they call themselves Christian. As far as the interpretations, one can only do the best they could.