"It appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity and theism produce hardly any effect on the public; and freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men's minds which follows from the advance of science." [Darwin]

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." [Voltaire]

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." [Einstein]

"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]

"I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life � our desire to go on living � our dread of coming to an end." [Edison]

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." [Lincoln]

"Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?" [Arthur C. Clarke]

"Religions are all alike � founded upon fables and mythologies." [Thomas Jefferson]

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile." [Kurt Vonnegut]

"Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race." [Bertrand Russell]

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...but what do they know.

chas

Thanks, Chas.

That is, uh...very enlightening.

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Bo pen nyang.

Wow! Now, that's a brave thing to post here, considering the orientations of some members.

Well assembled, Chas.

R.

(P.S.) Have you been out of town? Tried to call a bunch of times to give you some grief!


R.

Now all you have to do to complete your point is find some Palin, Pat Robertson, Jeremiah Wright, etc etc , quotes to show just how dumb those of us who believe are. Obviously there have never been any smart people who were religious. This is just a dandy thread here. So dandy in fact that this will be my only post on it. Brave? I don't know what makes this brave in the least. What is the worst that can happen? Someone might call Chas a bad name?

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 07-05-2010).]

Rory, my reference to "Brave" was an indication that I would never have posted this, given my association with you and others.

I have to believe that Chas was certainly not poking fun at you or other "believers". I certainly wouldn't.

P.S. Give me a call so we can talk "guitars".

Russ

Rory, here's the thing. There is a REASON this is called THE BAR. Nigel has provided a (much needed) place where members can feel comfortable discussing a variety of subjects, including religion. As long as it's not 'nasty' or personal in nature, what's the harm. I think those that venture here should be prepared to accept it's purpose for being. I think there has been every bit as much pro-religion rhetoric discussed (and promoted) here as anything I may have introduced. What's fair for the goose..........

These are the thoughts, philosophies, and writings of some of the most respected leaders and thinkers in modern history. What should we do, dismiss them as rubbish? I don't think EVERYBODY should have to agree on things that can't be proven by ANYBODY. I didn't post this to offend anybody, but then, I don't think it should. I also wasn't looking for a response (not a serious one anyway ), this was just me sharing some of my thoughts that were better articulated by smarter people than me. Ahhhhh, let's go make some MUSIC, the TRUE religion .

chas

chas out of interests how do you believe the universe began and what is your evidence for it ?

We all know where this will lead. What good is 'evidence' anyway, if 'true believers' are merely going to poo-poo it or deny it's validity. The most brilliant minds (Stephen Hawking, et al) of our time put the age of the Universe at 187,000,000,000 years old (that's 187 billion, in case I screwed up the zeroes). I guess I'll accept that (as opposed to the 7000 years the Creationist put it as), until better SCIENTIFIC data comes along. If God DID create it, that would make him a pretty old guy. Do you suppose he's sitting around thinking, "Wow, where did the time go".

Oh, and it started from a singularity. As good a theory as any other since we can't prove or disprove it. Look, this thread can only come to grief, but if you really want to discuss it, start another thread. That way Rory will be able to join in (he's uh, given up on this one .

Gotta go now. Have to see if I can talk Tony into sending me his PA2x for my broken PA1x .

chas

It's the darn government, Chas. They've taken comedy out of everything.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

thanks Chas . I really just wanted to know :-) wasnt starting a new debate.If God started the whole thing (and stephen Hawkings does not rule that out) then your comments about his age (although tongue in cheek) are irrelevent because God must be outside of any concept of time ..... Like i said before i dont have the time (no pun intended) to debate this with you. I just wanted to know which version of the begining you were coming from.Maybe another time though....

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 07-05-2010).]

[This message has been edited by spalding1968 (edited 07-05-2010).]