Last night was almost like a trip back in time. My wife and I met up with lots of old friends, indivuduals we hadn't seen in two or more decades, plus some new friends as well. After a great dinner at Silver Spring Mining Company, we adjuourned to a nearby American Legion for a night on the town. There was a five-piece band playing on stage, which consisted of a drummer, sax player, keyboard player, and two vocalists (male and female).

One of the OMB performers who was in our group said "You can really hear the difference when you have a live drummer! This group really rocks."

Well, I thought about this for a while and came to the following conclusions:

Yep, the drummer was great, his timing was outstanding and he really knew his stuff. However, the drums completely drowned out the keyboard and essentially overpowered everything else. Yep, they were really up front and loud.

The keyboard player, who is an excellent OMB performer as well, was essentially playing a piano, strings, guitar, and some left hand bass. If anything, he was backing up the drummer with complementary sounds.

The sax player was outstanding as well, and fortunately, there was a mic dedicated to the sax. Therefore, when he was playing solo runs, the drummer kept his parts at a low level so the sax was out in front. The same held true when the singers were performing--the drums were somewhat dubdued.

While the group put on a good show, the smoke-filled dancefloor was never packed to capacity. Sure, there were a few times when it seemed to fill up, but it was rare to see more than one to three couples on the dancefloor.

I sincerely believe that most OMB performers that deal with dance crowds would have packed the dancefloor to capacity. Additionally, the overall sound quality would have been much better balanced.

Finally, most Americal Legions pay about $150 to $200 for a 4-hour gig, which was split between 5 performers who had to endure a dense fog of cigarette smoke and a few drunks. At the end of the night we all headed home, tired, smelling like cigarette smoke and ready for a hot shower before hitting the sack. Kinda' reminds me of the way things were more than 40 years ago when I was a you kid and just getting into the entertainment biz--same pay scale, same drunks and same smoke-filled bar-rooms. Some things never seem to change!

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

wadr, i disagree with most of this, apart from the money point..i play OMB and play in a 5 pce rock band, and there is just something about playing with other muso's that seems to be the real reason i play and enjoy music...the OMB is strictly business...but the band is where it is really at, musically...and as for the drums being overpowering it may simply have been a case of unbalanced mixing.... as for the lack of dancers, perhaps they had the wrong set list, or perhaps people were doing that other "thing" when seeing a live band, actually being thoroughly entertained by the players on the stage, with no need for further activity (after all there aint much to look at when you have a solo performer up there so punters have to do something to keep interested!!)..anyhoo thats my 2 cents worth of observation

[This message has been edited by manic2257 (edited 01-29-2006).]

Hi Gary,

I have to agree with you whole heartedly on this one. Way back before arrangers, I used to look forward to playing with the band because it was fun and I didn't have to work as hard. But after arrangers came around, the game changed. For smaller bands, 3 or 4 pieces, There's just a whole lot more versatility and sound with a OMB. I can have as many as 8 parts on an arranger. If I go to a traditional trio, piano, bass, and drums, it works fine in jazz. But to play for dancing, it leaves a lot to be desired. These days when I absolutely have to have a group, I build it around the arranger by adding a guitar, sax, and trumpet. The music stays tight all night and even the musicians are happier.

Now there's still a lot to be said for an 8 piece show group, well rehearsed, and with lighting, ect., but they usually go for around $2,000. At this stage in my career, I don't need the hassle of keeping this type of group together when I can work as a OMB and make really good money and have lots of fun, and keep the dance floor full.

And as for the smoke filled rooms, I've had my fill of those as well. I've just recently turned down a couple of those gigs. I still play the Hyatt, but I just have to walk in, sit down, and play. No epuipment, no dancing, just nice piano music.

I'm sure this topic will generate heated discussion on both sides of the fence, this is just my humble opinion at age 55.

Salud,

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Gary:
I agree 100%

Manic2257 (my 2 pennies) I hear you and what you say, but, your perhaps this and perhaps that dosn't work for me. Gary is a professional and he was there in a American Legion Hall, out front and giving his professional opinion, and sharing it with others not looking for a second opinion.....the end...Cheers....pose

yeah well, whatever...ad infinitum ad nauseum the end, fine, kaput.....btw i think he's big enuf to look after himself doncha think? or judging from your reply, mebbe you dont think??? i dunno...who died and made you boss of all opinion? what makes you think others are not professional...shit forgot...you dont think too much do ya...sycophantic pisants never really impressed me much..(wadr to the original poster this is not aimed in that direction) obviously he (original poster)posted it for a discussion, otherwise why bother posting at all, unless you are just into self-aggrandisement,which i do not believe is the case here....
anyhoo.. thats the ten bucks worth right there, ya wanna go for $50??

As a drummer and a keyboard player playing in both bands and as a OMB, I can tell you they are vastly different.

In the band on drums, I am constantly being overpowered by guitarists and bass players ripping through their mega amps. They complained to me to hit the drums harder which I will not do. So in their infinite wisdom, they decide to amplify my drums through the main PA system and add sub-woofers to accentuate the bass drum. Now I sound awesome, however they still try to over power me. Guess who loses this competition? The fans. Our music is so loud, that I have had to go out and buy a sound level meter and give it to the club owners so they can measure our volume as to make sure we do not create a bad experience for their guests.

The difference between playing in a OMB and a full band is amazing to me. As a OMB, you must be more creative, fill more empty spaces, provide more backing vocals, and fill-ins, and keep your act fresh. With a band, the very nature of 5 or 6 individuals lends itself to more creative juices feeding off of each other, more vocal variety, etc.

I am in a 5 piece band and we play VFW's and Clubs, but we make a hell of a lot more money than $100-200. We are one of the top bands in our area and command $800-$1500 per night. Weddings are quadruple that.

I could never make that money as a OMB.

Al

Can I just agree with everybody so that no-one shouts back? Manic, your original post was perfectly fine but IMHO your repsonse to Loungelyzard was excessive and added nothing to this discussion. Can we cool it please?

Back to the plot. I play in a duo with a drummer. I believe having a live drummer gives us an edge (usually) over the "backing tape" brigade, because we can be extremely dynamic (or loud, depending on your viewpoint). Over the 20+ years we have worked together, I've had one punter wander up and say "you're a good band but the drums are too loud".

I do OMB gigs too, and whilst I miss the drummer I still reckon I can get the dance floor filled by the simple expedient of playing tunes people like! The playlist is critical here. Me + my drummer have well over 10 hours of varied material in our heads before the dots come out; this gives us the ability to react to changing "mood" as it happens. I feel that going in with a "we do these songs in this order" is almost a recipe for failure.

It would be nice to play in a 5 piece+ band but I tried that when I was younger and the aggro involved (rehearsal logistics, ego's) was just too much for the benefit gained.

hi mac, your comment is noted, but its all cool here..i always say what i think and i don't like to beat about the bush, (it is a trait a lot of aussies have)..i was not upset or angry, they were just my thoughts at the time, simple as that...i imagine that if the poster has a problem with that he/she will repsond...but i re-iterate that your comment (and the intent behind it) is noted...its all good m8
cya
dennis

Folks, we're talking about different "animals" here. On the one hand, arrangers and various OMB setups allow for maximum performance by minimum personnel....less hassles (rehersals, disagreements,personal problems)...maximum income (in some cases), etc. But, the trade-off is that hard to describe but delicious unspoken communication between musicians of equal talent, experience and dedication.

I'm never happier than when I'm playing jazz on the: fly"...trading fours...modulations...variations on lead lines, etc. But the trade off, since that only works in jazz (think few and far between, low paying, frustrating venues, far fewer patrons, etc.) is hard on the ego and pocketbook.

Then, there's the show band thing...being locked into entertainment sets...playing most songs exactly the way they are recorded...expensive lights...big sound systems. Personnel changes. Lots of rehersals. Often, you need to be adequate, but not superior in your "chops".

It all comes down to what floats your boat. The guys in Foreplay are extremely succesful for what they're doing, but there are lots of country and rap performers making gobs more money. Even these guys (Foreplay) will tell you that the restrictions on what makes a commercially viable jazz album mean that there are trade offs and creative concessions. In fact, this whole business is a trade off. It's all about what we each need to be fulfilled as performers, musicians..whatever, and what produces the results we require (attention, income, professional development, and more).

The trick is to decide what gets you to where you want to be and DO IT!

Here's hoping that each of you achieves the success you want, however you define it!


Russ

russ,

["But, the trade-off is that hard to describe but delicious unspoken communication between musicians of equal talent, experience and dedication."]

ditto!!

Manic2257,

You could possibly be correct with all of your assumptions ie: bad tempos, incorrect set tunes etc. Here is the big however, Gary is a seasoned professional with probably more years of experience than you are old (judging by the way you try to write). I'm sure he knows what the appropriate tunes should be for the crowd that was there.

I have played in everything from a 16 piece band to doing solo work. They all have their good and bad points. Both can be equally rewarding or equally frustrating. Most of us have had to deal with other so called musicians who arrive late if at all, show up or get drunk on the job, don't know the tunes, play out of tune or speed, and want the majority of the money and fame. Many of them also think they can sing and are the worlds greatest soloists.

Most of the people on this forum respect the other members and treat them accordingly. You made good points even though your manner of expression leaves a lot to be desired.

You are correct about another thing also. Gary is a big boy and can hold his own with the likes of you without any help from the rest of us.

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 01-30-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 01-31-2006).]

Gary isn't nearly as big as he used to be, thanks to South Beach.

in reply to tom...oh what a response, such sabre-like wit...i am forever in your shadow, and will continue through life carrying the scars from the results of your vast intellect........*yawn* , whatever, whatever, whatever....you obviously yearn for the validation of your peers, so you go for it m8y

manic2257--Hmmmmmm! The name seems to fit the demeanor. Well M8, I spent several months down under in Woomera, Perth and a few other locations, and the vast majority of the hundreds of individuals I worked with were the most hospitable, polite people I have met anywhere on the planet. There are, however, exceptions everywhere, which are clearly reflected by your statements and comments to some of the forum's senior members.

I don't know how old you are, how much entertainment experience you have, and to be perfectly honest, I don't give a damned. This forum has survived for many years because the vast majority of its members are willing to share experiences, and contribute good, solid, information that will benefit the membership both professional and home hobbyist players.

If you have something constructive to contribute, believe me it will be welcomed by everyone. Don't denegrate Australia by claiming this attitude is shared by everyone on the continent--it's not the case.

Now, if you wish to continue this tirade with similar posts, feel free. Just don't expect a heartwarming response or welcome.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Manic2257,

To quote the wisdom and wit of your fine writing "yeah well, whatever...ad infinitum ad nauseum the end, fine, kaput.....".

Thank you for the mental evaluation. All these years I've been searching for that unknown missing thing in my life, the approval and valadition of my peers. It is amazing how you spotted it so quickly. Where do I send the check?

btw, I am not nor ever will be your m8y.

Tom

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 01-31-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 01-31-2006).]

Nah! It ain't worth it...

Ian

Hey Al, things must be a lttle different in the Philly area....I could probably name a dozen Solo entertainers here that make 60 G's plus a year...I can't think of one band member that makes anywhere near that...and I know people in the most popular bands..The main difference that I see is Solo acts have more options to play 5 or 6 jobs a week, where the bands are lucky to get 1 or 2 jobs within the week..