I agree with you guys..Using the Mastering tools and also the Harmonist compression can be a problem with someone that does not really understand what's happening..

I am pleased that these options are on the G70 and E80.

I can appreciate the Mastering EQ and compression control from the keyboard ..to fine tune or adjust to a room...

Maybe it would be nice if we all suggested some points or corrections of the G70 and E80...maybe saving time and effort of others looking to resolve a problem..

BeBop ..your question of saving the split..all of the panel settings are saved in a user program..I write my main user and assign it to start at boot up..

Also another tip for the Harmonist...set the input and sustain levels higher[harmonist/effects/edit] I keep the input at 93 and raise the sustain level to 18..Also defeat the vibrato on your voice if your own vibrato is good..Also turn compression off.

Maybe we can start a new post with these type of suggestions..Even you Yamaha guys can do the same....

you really only need EQ to match sound to spaces you play in, not compression, live rigs and engineers i have worked with only really use compression if they have a quiet vocalist..what they used a LOT was limiters..too much compression in music today imo, squeezes the life out of everything and all you have left is just sound with not a lot of definition..

Great tips Fran.....I agree this is the kind of stuff we should be talking about on an arranger KB forum......I admit being guilty of straying many times off topic into BS oblivion as do many others....but this kind of on hands suggestions is what makes people play better & understand how to get the fullest enjoyment out of their keyboards. So ask & answer away no matter what KB your using... shall we?

Dennis , I agree, I do not like to use compression in any live situation..

yep! totally agree

"And most professionals already have EQ's and compressors fro their PA's and studios. But putting these sonic hand grenades in the hands of newbies and home players is a recipe for confusion and dissatisfaction. I think I'm reading a fair bit of evidence for this, don't you agree?"

Careful Diki. I certainly dont agree. I am a home and church player and certainly not a professional but i know when something on a keyboard is working or not .

The speaker modeling function on the 3 E80's i tried did not improve the sound. I had a roland product specialist right next to me today and he messed around with the EQ settings and in particular the drums and bass and got the same results as me. I guess he was not professional enough or maybe he was a home player moonlighting as a Roland product specialist ?????

Many of the members here are not able to actually audition these instruments in real life. I am in the fortunate position to do just that. Do you think its just bad luck that 3 out of 3 Roland E80 come shipped with poorly EQ'd speaker systems ? I wish others cold hear what i have heard because there would be no doubt.

The point that i am making is that maybe, just maybe the e80 speaker system needs an OS upgrade ???? I remember having similar discussions with G70 owners when it first came out and how the G70 was such a powerful tool that once tweaked would sound better than anything else on the planet. And then we had this BS thread about how some instruments needed skill to use and that home players prefered the out the box sound whilst the "pros" wanted to personalise The sound and people tweaked and tweaked and tweaked until somebody realised how much efort they had put into an instrument that could not sound well after ALL that tweaking because it NEEDED AN OS UPGRADE.

I said the same thing then that i am saying now, Roland need to manufacture a product ready for the market and should not expect its customers to finish the job that they started and pay for the priviledge !!

This feelslike dejavu

[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 05-18-2007).]

[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 05-18-2007).]

Deja vu all over again?

I am afraid my only tip for mastering tools is 'TURN THEM OFF!' If the arranger sounds like cr*p without them, that's not a good sign....

Look, I do mastering work at my home studio and also at a large commercial facility in my home town. They have a Manley Slam! (mastering edition), Manley Massive Passive (mastering edition) and hardware Waves L2 Ultramaximizer limiter (DON'T confuse it with the software L2's!) through B&W monitors in their mastering chain, at home I mostly rely on UAD plugs and some Waves things (C4, mostly) through Mackie HR824's to do it here.

And the one thing I have learned is, if the mix isn't any good to start with, you are just turd polishing (to use an industry expression!). In other words, the mastering part of the process is just there to 'glue' the mix together a little bit, and help raise it's level to the absurdly high RMS levels that modern CDs are mastered at (don't get me started on this one! ). It isn't supposed to be 'corrective' at all if it can be helped.

So I say to all of you out there with sonic problems, or auditioning new gear... TURN OFF THE MASTERING SECTION...! Listen to the arranger without any of that stuff messing with the basic sound. Of course, be sure you are listening to it through good speakers (we'll deal with getting the on-board speakers to sound better later), or top quality headphones (try Grado's... to die for!). Make sure that your ears are rested, you are calm and focused, and bring along a CD of a well recorded piece of music that is appropriate to the style you are going to play, and that you are very familiar with.

Try to get the store (if you are in one) to jack this CD through the same speakers you are listening to the arranger on (if it has RCA inputs, even better, just connect the CD to the arranger). Now start to listen and compare...

Do you feel the arranger feels full and balanced compared to the CD? A CD of you playing your LAST arranger is ideal, if you have one. Now you can truly see how much better (or not!) this new toy is compared to the old one, and objectively, too.

Now listen to the balance of the arranger. Does any one thing sound out of whack, or is it EVERYTHING? One of the commonest problems many have with EQ is that they will use Mastering EQ to fix a problem with just the drums, or the Bass, or the piano sound. That's what the per-part EQ is for! If you use the Master EQ, you stick that curve on everything, whether it needs it or not. Mostly, NOT....

So..... I think you are beginning to see what I'm getting at, See whether the arranger sounds good and un-hyped without the Master tools. The styles come next....

WITHOUT the mastering EQ and compression, do they sound consistent? Are they similar in volume? Are some bass-y, and some thin? Here lies yet another problem with the Mastering Tools. Are the styles developed with the tools on or off? And are they all developed by the same team, with the same settings? No way to tell....

But if there ARE some wild swings in balance, that's a probable culprit. But let's assume for right now that they are reasonably consistent.

So now you are listening to the arranger, through hopefully a flat PA system, or good headphones. Now turn on the CD. Any big changes in EQ? More bassy, less bassy, too much middle? Hopefully not, but if so (and the styles sound balanced), NOW is the time to use a LITTLE EQ to try and match them a bit closer. OK, let's assume that's done....

FINALLY, now is the time to turn off the PA and change over to the Internal speakers.... Take a few minute's ear break. Now come back and listen to the speakers. Do you hear any noticeable EQ shifts? Now is the time to apply the separate speaker EQ (if it has one) and try to get back to roughly the same tone balance as before, but always consider that you are going to be very lucky to get the depth of bass out of little speakers. Warm it up a bit, if necessary, but don't overdo it. You can't get a quart into a pint jar....

Hopefully, by now, you have a much better idea of what the arranger's TRUE sound is like, and the CD comparison will help you avoid the sin of over-hyping the EQ.

I'll deal with compression later, but suffice it to say, once again, if the arranger needs it just to sound good, that's a bad sign. They ARE useful in low to moderate amounts to stop you from breaking up the Internal speakers, but never at the cost of pumping or breathing (read an article on compression if you don't know those terms).

Sorry to all the pros and knowledgeable amateurs that already know all this stuff, but I am surprised at how many times I've read a post, or listened to a user demo, and immediately heard that the EQ and comp settings are WAY hyped, and fighting the sound. Just keep saying to yourself... Less is more..... Less is more..... Less is more....

Diki. I hear your experience and respect it but if i had to do all that to tell whether the internal sound i was hearing was decent i would not buy the instrument.I dont buy keyboards often and certainly dont keep them for less than 5 years so when i purchase i need to be confident that i have the right tool for me. I have listened to many many keyboards in shopsover the years.I am a salesmans worst nightmare because i only buy when i am good and ready. If the instrument does not sound good through decent headphones and other keyboards in the same shop do then i wont buy it .If it is sold with internal speakers and they sound poor i might still buy it if through external amplification it can be made to sound great but for my purposes good internal speakers are a deal maker or breaker. The E80 sounds great through headphones. It sounds great through external speakers. But so far in my limited experience it does not sound great through its internal speakers and when the sales people cant get it to sound good and the pruduct specialist cant either it gives me concern about its speakers as i am sure it would anyone else including you . If Roland want to continue to make the purchaseing decision this hard for its customers then so be it.

When i bought my Pax i was sold on the sound from the internal speakers. I was at fairdeal music in birmingham England and a guy was demoing the pax for another customer.I kept looking for the amps around the shop floor and could not find them. Then i realised the sound was coming from the keyboards own speakers. Thats all i needed to hear.

I am happy that Bebop is getting great sound from his E80 and i think your sugestion that he get screen prints of the EQ seting is excelent. You can be assured that i will print them off and take them to Sound control at my earliest convenince and i will be happy to report back on my findings. I like the instrument a lot but this is getting silly.

I completely agree with everything you say, spalding. I, too am the salesman's nightmare!

I am in NO way 'defending' the E80. I have never even touched one, and have NO opinion about the speaker's sound, other than to say 'opinions vary'. I am just trying to suggest ways to track down WHY....

I, too am experienced enough to get a good idea of the sound without all that detail. But some here are not, and there definitely seems to be a large gap between those that understand what the Mastering section can do, and those that don't (I DID apologize to you 'experts', remember?).

It's abuse, and I include what I consider to be VERY aggressive, default factory presets in that abuse, can very often make the difference between a great basic sound, and a squashed, hissy, flat, dynamically unresponsive sound. And often, just turning off the EQ and especially compression can at least restore the instrument to something that anyone other than marketing 'experts' (got to make it loud, got to make it POP! Got to hype it up to sell!) might actually enjoy.

Now, I'm not sure all that is going to affect the E80's speakers. But I can tell you for sure that the day I turned off all the mastering compression, my G70 started to sound much more dynamic and live. Now that I have per-part EQ (and per-drum within a kit), the master EQ is just for room correction only. Want more bass? EQ the bass! Want more highs on the cymbals? EQ the cymbals...!

Don't boost the bass on the piano and the highs on the strings (which is what a master EQ would do) to get what you want...