I can't understand how there is a fuzz about the TC Helicon Voice Prism, as I had your openion on this forum I suggested my friend to order it cause from what I heard in here this was the best there is in the market. Well I've heard it and I must say what a Disapointment it is, there is nothing in the sound that justifies it's high price, In my and my friend's opinion it doesn't deserve such a fuzzz, I was truly disapointed for making him buy one, but I can't understand how most of you said this was an outstanding Harmoniser, Well it isn't and I wouldn't suggest any one to purchase one at that price. I have a simple Harmoniser on my Genesys, it is plain and simple but very effective. I would like to here from any of you who said that this was the best on the market. Especially Uncle Dave who use one!!!! no offence to anyone but I still can't understand why most of you said it sounds better than the rest.

Sorry But I am very disapointed.

What exactly you didn't like about it? Is it the sound quality or you don't like the added harmony? May be you are not sending the right MIDI data to it.

I have Voice One and I love the way it sounds. I have used Digitech Vocalist products in the past and this was an upgrade for me.

Ziggy,
You were pretty hasty to push something on your friend without hearing it yourself, don't you think? All these reviews here are very subjective, but you can still find some continuity in opinion if you study up on a product.
I think the entire mind-set of using harmomnizers is the problem. You nned to set levels, learn techniques, and modify your style to get the most from it. The TC has the best tone I've ever heard, and the parameters for modifying the harmonies are VAST. My guess is that your friend (and ,maybe you too....) thought that a harmonizer was a "magic box" that makes a singer out of any old sound. Not true, my friend. Not true.
I still think TC makes the best sounding boxs in the market, and it's ok if you don't agree, but I'd reeeeeealy suggest that you fiddle with it a bit - it's a complex piece and with a little TLC, it'll perform great.
Give it another try !

Correct Dave,

Using a harmonizer is an ART FORM all in itself besides playing and singing. You must learn to use it perfectly or don't even waste your time.

Hello.

Ziggy might be referring to the fact that they sound extremely false when you go beyond a basic duet harmony.

It's not a user error issue.


Regards.
James

That's your opinion James, but I heartily disagree. I often use 3 or 4 voices to get a 4 Freshman type harmony. You DO however, need to learn a new skill to operate, trigger and "authenticate" harmony useage. If you don't understand the concept of choral singing or tight harmonies from experience, then the practice of using an electronic "group" will be very hard to relate to.
Believe me ...... I can sell a 5 part vocal group that turns heads night after night.
I grew up singing harmpny because my vocal range was always a little lower than the lead singers on the radio. It taught me to listen "inside" the chords and find just the right balance of tone, diction and dynamics. It's an art form in itself, and it's not as easy as learning to read music. It has to be "felt" and expressed. It has to blend with the lead, without overshadowing it. It's a musical conversation, really.
It's tricky, but it CAN be done. I do it every night.

Well, it seems that you all thought that I rushed it from the box and pluged it in and VOLA, that is not the way I do things, I am very experienced when it comes to managing any kind of computerised boxes, so that is not the case.
I know you can almost set any concepth in it, that was not my argument, My argument is that compared, "because you mentioned it here" to Digitech Workstation the difference isn't that much so that you say it was worth the money you spent on it.

I know that there is the matter of opinion, but when I asked here I got the idea that it was OUTSTANDING, well from first hand experience now I say it is like all the rest you have to be careful like all the others to keep Harmonies in the backround, if they are a bit lound like all the rest sounds ROBOTIC, I don't think I have lost my sence of hearing yet, I'm still young for that.

But don't any of you tell me that the price is justified we are talking $1200 that's how it cost over here. Sorry but I don't agree all the others sounds good as long as you leave the Harmonies right in the backround and TC is no exception, for eayse of use I think the Digitec Workstaion is much much better and you get the same results.

UNCLE DAVE QUOTE
--------------------------------------------
You were pretty hasty to push something on your friend without hearing it yourself, don't you think? All these reviews here are very subjective, but you can still find some continuity in opinion if you study up on a product.
--------------------------------------------

I wasn't but I trusted that some of you had a vast experience on harmoniser, so I trusted you were telling first hand experience and I did look up about it.

Well don't take any of you this as an offence but I have been perfoming for over 15 years, and I think I can tell a difference between good and outstanding.

TC is just like any other hight end product and to me it is clasfied as just GOOD.


Tony.

Hi Dave.

I don’t think anyone would have more skill in using these vocal harmony modules than the guys that made them, and even they can’t provide a realistic demo mp3 beyond duet.

All the demos sound computerized when you go beyond a duet.
So it’s not really just my opinion, it’s actually a obvious observation.

Regards.
James.


[This message has been edited by James Tubbritt (edited 07-02-2003).]

James,
I'll see if I can make a demo up for you. I think most people are missing the boat where harmonizers are concerned. They need finesse to be acurate, and the balance is crucial. As for factory demos .... I never go by them anyway - they can be good or bad. I need to play with it in my setting before I know what it can do for me.
Give me a little time, and I'll try to record a sample for you !
Dave

Dave sorry I don't agree with you here, I think you are missing the boat on this issue, when you have something that is really good it don't need a lot of fiddling with to get it to work for you. I said it is no more than other top Harmonisers and still it cost much, much more, when you can get the same results with cheaper Harmonisers.

To tell me it need a lot of fiddling with to get it to work for you is no argument, I have heard recording of you and they sound very good, but you would have got the same results with say digitech. I think as usual here it seems like the BRAND is the issue and not what it really can stand up to, I give you a small example with when I use to write about the Genesys, because it is not well known in the States well you all know how popular it is there, but I can tell you it is one of the best ALL ROUNDER for those who perform LIVE.

Dave I am not trying to blame you in any way but I think this time you where on the wrong track, Cause I have listend to 3 different harmonisers at one time and there is no difference, the only difference was the PRICE and by the way the Voice Prisom have a very BULCKY Body and nice looking Screen.

Tony

ziggy .... from one Tony to another ... I'm certainly not looking to defend anyone here, but I think the issue has to come down to the fact that when we purchase gear, even based on the many opinions of people who may use that gear, our satisfaction with it, like theirs, is going to be purely subjective ... what I hear is not going to be what you hear, and what might be a 'little fiddlin' around' to one person may be a BIG deal to another ... How many times have you seen a movie that was praised by critics, only to wonder what the fuss was all about??? ....
I purchased a digitech workstation ex based on the comments I read from forum members ... I had never heard that particular unit, but it fit my budget, and as I said, the comments were pretty good ... also, I purchased it off e-bay, which I was cautioned about doing ... For me, the digi is fine .. it sounds good, does the job, and I've gotten a number of compliments on it ... BUT ... if I were NOT satisfied, the fault could only lie with me for not hearing and trying the unit first...
(BTW . I also bought my kn6000 sight unseen, sound unheard ... talk about a leap of faith ...) ... I find it interesting that you have now heard 3 harmonizors, seemingly AFTER you purchased the TC ... had you taken the time to do that before, you might not be unhappy now...
I don't think you can fault people for expressing their opinions, not matter how strongly, even when they do not agree with yours...
Personally, as a digitech user, I am glad to hear that someone does not think there is much difference (other than price) between the digi and the TC ... at least I don't feel I'm missing out by not having a TC ...
t.

Tony I am not trying to blame anyone here, but if you go way back in the forum everyone described the TC as OUTSTANDING. Now that I heard it I still stay that it is not, and let me tell you you made a good Bargain like me, Cause I purchased mine from the one and only Scottyee.
About your other question of course we heard other's before but since the shop we ordered it from purchased 3 it wasn't nice to say to him that he didn't liked it so my friend had to purchase the TC.

But I told my friend what everyone said on the forum and the Desision was his and his alone, I myself didn't give him any advice about it, cause never heard one so I passed to him what I heard in this forum.

I am saying all this so if any of you are going to purchase one re think about it, cause you can get a much cheaper one with just the same results. That's how we learn from one others mistakes, so I felt I had to put this Expirience of my friend here so others can read.

Tony

Tony,
Here are some cold, hard FACTS that defend the price of the TC.
(NO opinions expressed here)

1)Phantom power
2)Dedicated on/off switch for main signal
3)individual level for EACH harmony voice
4)individual pan for EACH harmony voice
5)internal mult effects that can be routed many ways - even to an external source
6)dedicated fast edit buttons
7)octave shift for EACH harmony voice
8)gender change for EACH harmony voice
9)quieter output, extensive EQ
10)AC power cord - NO WALL WART

These are the first 10 that come to mind, without any bias. If you add personal taste into the mix - the list will go on.

I'm not taking any offense here either - just defending my original point of why I thought it to be a superior product to the rest of the pack. I stand by that asessment today. It's worth every penny for the extra quality and flexibility you get. The new models seem to have much the same sound with fewer features.

Speaking of "finesse" .... there are many examples of fine instruments that required a steeper learning curve:
Lets start with the mother of all programming nightmares:
The original DX7.
The PA80 is no walk in the park at first.
The Triton is very sophisticated too.
Roland JV series .....
There are TONS of very fine products that require a substantial investment in learning the ways around it before you reap the benifits of it's performance.

When I make the demo, I'll make identical phrases on the Digitech AND the TC so you can see what I mean. Nothing I've posted so far really shows off the harmony the way I use it at work. The track on my web page of "She's no lady" is recorded live in the X1 using the internal unit. My outboard gear has a much stronger impact.

One advantage I like about the Digitech Vocalist Workstation EX, not found on the Voice Prism unit is its volume 'sliders' which make for convenient 'on the fly' adjustment especially during live performance.

I can't speak to vocal technique requirements of vocal harmonizer singing, but I appreciate the easy 'plug/play' and impressive results I get from both the Digitech Vocalist Workstation EX as well as from the built in vocalizer in the Tyros. No special adjustments or tweaking necessary. I had a chance to audition (a while ago) the TC Helicon Voice Prism and acknowledge that it sounds a bit better, but personally feel the gigging convenience of the built Tyros vocalizer outweighs the hassle of having to drag additional equipment & assoc wires/plugs around. In addition, being able to store & automatically call up the Tyros' 'vocalizer settings' via Registration is a BIG plus that I'm not willing to sacrifice. I may consider (in the future) the TC Helicon unit for use in the studio, but after reading Ziggy's comments, I'm definitely going to have to give the Voice Prism a more critical audition now before laying that kind of cash down.

btw: Tony (Ziggy), glad to hear you finally received the Digitech Workstation I sent you. I trust it arrived to you safely, as it was quite a long journey from California to Malta. - Scott

Scott,
The TC had 4 dedicated knobs that access much more than just the volume of the parts. You can blend in just one voice, or switch gender, pan, reverb level .... much more possibilities than the EX offers.
If i remember, the sliders were not programable, right? You had lead, rev, harmonies, etc...

...and I, in turn, bought a Digitech Workstation ex from eBay based on my friend Tony Mads experience. Hey, that's how I purchased most of the equipment I own, from comments made on this very forum. But, T's right. Ultimately, we are responsible for purchasing products we have never laid hands on, based on others' say-so.

Just my 2 cents.......


Angelo

Ang ..... you listened to ME?!?!? OH NO !!! .. what the he!! do I know???? .... NO ONE... not the kids, not even the DOG ever listened to me !!! ... WOW!!! ... I'm amazed... (there's that song again )

t.

Hi Dave.

Thank you.
And I would like to hear your demo.

I know what your saying regarding factory demos and I would have to agree. Although these guys making the demos did actually create the module. I also understand that the end users spend more time using these modules than the manufactures…. So it’s the advanced end users demo’s I would be more interested in hearing. Which is you.


Bye.
James.

Dave well and good the features are there althought most of them are found in Digitach Workstation, I am comparing with digitech because this was the contestender here, and I think for Live performance Digitech wins, I heard most of the factory setups and they sounded VERY ROBOTIC and not good at all, we tweaked into all the settings to make them sound better but the result wasn't that much better.
What get's me sometimes in here everybody start taking a discussion like this, as if we are getting at one another, I have great respect to all of you here, but if I heard something that I din't like I can't just say ok I liked it because someone said it was the best choice. So let's kep on the subject and not at one another.

I have had the Digitech for a few hours and I got a wonderful result with just a little tweaking and I could go out tomorrow with it and perform cause it's so easy to use and effective, I don't think my friend is going to use it, he has decided that he is going to put it on sale, because the fact that the onboard Harmoniser isn't that bad compared to TC, and that's the point of it all for live performance it's not that good, now when it comes to studio we are talking a different language here, I would never compare performing live to playing in a studio. So to come back that's what the subject was all about, and that is for live performance I think from what I've seen and heard you could do with spending Half the cost of TC Helicon and still get brilliant results. Remember I alwayes used the word OUTSTANDING and not just GOOD.

I started this thread so I hear from others but it seems not muany of you have the TC, so I may ask why not everyone goes for this Harmoniser since it is sooooo good????

I leave the answears to you.

And thx Scotteyy I did get it safe and sound, very well packed, I'll ketch up with you on MSN.

Tony.

Tony .... I count 7 of my list that The Digi EX does not have. Which items are you refering to? The ones i think are exclusive to the TC are:
1,2,5,6,8,9 and 10! And the other three are not as easy to access.

Ziggy, tell your friend to return it and get a refund. It sounds from this thread that it was a very recent purchase. Almost every dealer will give you a 30 day money back guarantee (in the USA at least). If your friend purchased it on the internet the same guarantee should apply too. Don't have your friend stuck with something he doesn't like. Tell him to send it back!!! and get a full refund "less a small restocking fee". Maybe he won't even have to pay that.

Best regards,
Mike

Yep, wrapped it in pages from my local newspaper (San Francisco Chronicle) . . . as I thought you might get a kick reading it. - Scott

Mike, he did go back with it and my friend offered to take a pair of EV speakers instead, but he told him that since he (the dealer) purchased it for him wouldn't take it back, to me it sure sound unfair since it was purchased last week, but unfortunatly over here (MALTA) things are a bit different at times even the price compared to what it is in the states $1200 is a lot.

Sounds like it was a special order, and many dealers won't take a return on an item that they don't stock. I'm with the retailer on this one. Try eBay ...... there are people all over the world that want stuff that they can't find.

Well I am glad to say that this matter had a happy ENDING, at last this morning the dealer excepted the trad in the TC for a pair of EV Speakers even though my friend had to double the money , but at least now he has something that he is happy with.

That's right Dave he didn't stok it, and he also had to purchase a special display for the TC, well I hope there'll be people who like it and at least now they are in stok over here, because nobody had them before.

ziggy, now that all the fighting is over I will add my .02 worth.

While I do not know about the Prism, I bought the Voiceworks from TC. The street price is $6/$700. According to TC, it has the latest voice modeling technology they offer.

As with all other debates here about sound, I listened to all the different harmonizers including onboard and to ME, there was not even a close comparison between them. Again to ME the Voiceworks was the only one that came close to sounding like real voices.

As far as ease of use for live, the VW is as about as straight forward and push the button and go as it comes.

The best way I found was to let the midi chords drive it.

I have not had to do any of Dave's tweaking to get the results that please me.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

You know what the number one "tweak" was? Taking the vibrato OFF ! That was the phony sound to me. My natural vibrato will come through the mix, there is no need for the fake stuff. That was the biggest thing I changed, the rest was just levels, and gender mostly.

Hi Terry, at no time I was fighting with no one, if you got that impression, sorry I didn't want to sound that way, I was expressing what I heard here, FIGHTING is not my name nor my sername.

Dave I did just that from the start thatis is I took the vibrito OFF as well, but I stil say that the difference Between the TC and the Digitech Work station was so little that it would go unnoticed in live performance. I just bought Digitech from Scotteyy, and I and pleased with the result, it do sound robotic but with careful blancing it sounds very good.

Terry I'm glad you are satisfied with what you bought, that's the thing!!! when you buy something and you are satisfied, My friend wasn't satisfied at all nor was I.


Tony.

I'm with UD on this one. I have the voice prism plus and have tried the digtech as well as yamaha and Ketron keyboards with them built in.

Well there is definately a difference in quality. I think that is because you have 24bit sampling as against 16bit sampling.
The results are, of course, very subjective.

But that's not the only difference. As UD stated, there are many more parameters to adjust and quite frankly when I first got the box I was overwhelmed by it all. It would have been much easier to get the Digitech EX with the sliders but I had paid my money and decided to get familiar with it. I had bought it as a second user deal for about $700 and was pretty sure I could get my money back anyway.

Am I glad I didn't. It takes practice to get anything more than simple (third above) harmony to sound realistic but when you have mastered it the results can be very realistic (IMHO)

I was probably guilty of looking for the "magic box" initially that is mentioned above but now that I have taken the trouble to find which of the 3 major or minor scaler modes are suitable for the song in question (or even building a specific custom scale) I am satisfied with the result.

The more robotic sounds are the ones that just take the control data from the chords played over midi. Whilst this is suitable for a few songs the scalar route is far more authentic when the right parameters are set up. There are patches that are supposed to sound robotic and weird such as the alien, drunken sheep and telephonic ones but these are just places to store your own settings as far as I am concerned.

If that means "twiddling" to some people then that is the price you pay as it is a voice crystal and not a crystal ball.

In addition to the harmony features, I also use the reverb/delay/compression/gate facilities and, as I have the plus this gives me more realist gender changes for both harmony and doubled voices.

I am thankfull to this forum for bringing the TC box to my attention in the first place otherwise I would have had got what I consider to be an inferior unit and, believe me, I need all the help I can get on my vocals.

Regards - Keith