Probably, most of you know this already, but I just figured it out. I have been frustrated with the lack of expression on my PSR-8000. Of course, this has more to do with the player than the instrument. Still, I have generated more feeling on other instruments. I do not want to limit "expression" to any one thing, but controlling the timbre of a sustained note is pretty important. Aftertouch is useful for this, but it is subtle on the PSR-8000 and absent on lower end synths.

The PSR-8000 allows three right-hand voices. It has a foot controller input that can be assigned to any combination of voices. By assigning the foot controller to one right hand voice I can vary its contribution to the overall right-hand sound as I am sustaining a note.

This allows some very appealing effects with some combinations of voices. For example, I play a "crunch guitar" without foot control and a "feedback guitar" with foot control. The crunch guitar plays as you would expect, but I can swell-in feedback at will. One type of combination is to use a solo instrument without foot control with a similar ensemble (or section) sound with foot control. This arrangement allows the fullness of a sound to be varied in real time. More generally, pad sounds can be controlled with the foot controller to vary the timbre of a lead sound.

I would like to hear if others are doing this and, if so, what sound combinations are particularly useful. Anyway, it is fun finding new ways to enjoy an instrument!

Clif

Uncle Dave, Dejavu

Thanks, Uncle Dave, I plan to try your suggestions tonite.

On my non-arranger synths, I get similar control with aftertouch. I think this might be possible on the PSR8k by programming custom voices. However, the foot-controller approach you have been "pioneering" allows expression with all the voices.

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 08-27-2000).]

I've been doing this for some time also. A few years ago I used two keyboards plus two modules. I had piano on one module, strings or organ on the other, then the top keyboard (a DX7) for lead sounds. All the bottom keyboard did was play styles and control a drum machine. Now you can do all that with one keyboard.
One thing I liked about the Roland G800 when I had it, was the capability to assign plus and minus values to the volume pedal. You could assign one sound to full on, and another to full off. Then you could get any combination of volumes by moving the foot pedal.
Some day we'll have the perfect machine. It's not here yet, but we've come a long way way.
Don

Don, I can see how being able to assign negative values to the foot controller would help with expression. Being able to assign negative values to aftertouch would also be high on my list of improvements for my arranger. Instead of just bringing in more sound, we could cross fade from one sound to another. Yamaha, if you are listening . . .

By the way, I tried the sound combinations recommended by Uncle Dave, and I do like the expression that can be achieved by them. Still, I find my foot is rather clumsy for controlling musical nuances. I wish my PSR8k could do more with aftertouch.

By the way, how is the Solton X1 when it comes to realtime control of timbre?



[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 08-28-2000).]

When it comes to realtime control, nothing is better than the Roland G's. That includes the X1..Fran

I absolutely agree, where I would like to add sticking to the real text in the topic,
You need weighted/semi-weighted keys" to express while playing!
I definately would have a look to the new Yamaha!
Fred

Freddynl brings up a different point. When I think of expression, I think of continuous controllers like aftertouch, pitch-bend wheels, modulation wheels, volume pedals, etc. I don't think weighted keys have much to do with continuous control. However, Piano players play with expression without continuous controllers. So is it that weighted keys provide more precise control of key velocity and thus more expression for piano-type playing?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uncle Dave:
[B] No - weighted, or not all keys transmit the same number values for velocity. They just feel different. The weight & feel of the keys is simply a preferance. I know players that can get so much more expression out of their UN-weighted keys because of the light feel, and quick action. It's all a matter of taste. Continuous controllers add another element to your playing that can't be done with ten fingers -

Yes, for ME it does make a difference, that's why I wrote ADD!
I control velocity and sustain(footswitch) by playing loud and soft, where the combination of just these two elements give the "expression".
I tried to do the same on unweighted Keys and I never was able to do this! It allways sounds LOUD. And unweighted keys gives me no feeling at all.
I guess this will have to do something with the manner of playing, hence even PCKeyboards never live longer as a couple of years at my officedesk, so I guess it's me.

Uncle Dave might well be right that it is just a matter of adjusting to different keypads. However, it also may not be the case that it is "simply a matter of mathematics". It is also a matter of ergonomics. A person's fine motor control may be more precise with weighted keys than with unweighted keys. Let us say that an average person only has sufficient control to distinguish 5 ranges of 128 velocity values when unweighted keys are used, but has sufficient control to distinguish 10 ranges with weighted keys. Then most people would be able to play more expressively (ignoring continuous controllers) with weighted keys. Note that it is because people do not have the precise control that midi offers that different weightings might allow different amounts of control.

Note that foot switches and foot pedals tend to offer much more resistance than keys. This allows our clumsy feet more control than they would have if they had the same resistance as unweighted keys. Likewise, weighted keys might make it easier for "clumsy" fingers to control the keys.

One other note. Weighted versus unweighted may not be the issue, ultimately. It might be unweighted keys with stiffer springs would be more subject to fine control. The main point is that it would only be a matter of mathematics if our fine motor control matched the level of precision offered by the instrument. I am sorry, this is probably a little to abstract to be of interest to many people here.

Oooh, this looks like the place to post an idea I’ve been playing with:

How many of you have seen an Orb gaming controller, or the somewhat more expensive pro verion, a SpaceWare Animotion controller for 3D animation software?

These devices are based on force-sensor technology, the technology behind those IntelliTouch “pencil eraser tip” pointer controls on IBM ThinkPad notebook PCs, and behind the tips of pressure- and tilt-responsive graphic tablet pen stylii such as are used with Wacom, CalComp, etc. graphics tablets, etc. They respond to the amount and direction of the force applied to them, without themselves moving (or moving only very slightly). It has been proven that human hand/finger muscles can exert far more precise and accurate control using force-sensors than with moving devices such as joysticks, and without tiring as rapidly.

The SpaceWare Animotion version, the one I’m most familiar with (being among other things a 3D animator by trade), is in the form of a hard rubber ball about 3" in diameter mounted on a desktop mount such that most of the ball is above the surface of the mounter, so that you can “grab” the ball with your fingers going well under the middle of the ball. The ball itself is attached to one or more force sensors (not sure how many are needed for it to do what it does). You can, with just one hand, exert any linear force on it in any direction (in any simultaneous combination of forward/back, left/right, and up/down), and also exert any twisting/rotational force in any simultaneous combination of axes (roll, pitch, yaw), all simultaneously and varying as you see fit! In the 3D programs, this would allow you to, for instance, animate a falling leaf, both its motion path and its swaying rotation, all by hand, all in real-time! Sure beats manual keyframing!

Now, imagine one of these babies on the left side of a musical keyboard! You could have very accurate, very responsive, and non-tiring simultaneous real-time control of up to six continuous controllers (if default is in the middle of their range — e. g. Pitch Bend), or up to twelve (six being controlled at any one time) of controls defaulting to the low end of their range (e. g. Modulation, AfterTouch, Expression, etc.)! Imagine how useful this would be on, say, a PSR9000 Pro with its PLG slot equipped with a VL or DX or AN card, being able to tweak up to a dozen of the extremely powerful expressive CCs, up to six simultaneously, on such PLG in real-time with one hand that doesn’t move from (or on) the controller! This would sure beat the socks off of Roland’s D-Beam!

For even more expressive power and control, the fact that most of us have five fingers on our left hands could be used by embedding up to five of those “pencil eraser tip” type force-sensor controls in the ball so that they fall about where our fingertips (and thumbtip) would be: each one of those could do an additional two axes of control, for up to four additional controllers that default to 0, or two that default to their midrange! Each!!

Of course, if your left hand is busy using the ball controller, you’d probably have to sequence your chords ahead of time. But ’cha can’t have everything&elipsis;

Actually I find my PSR740 quite an expressive instrument. I miss the feature that I had on the PSR730 which allowed me to map the modulation wheel to the filters, this offered useful control over dynamics. I believe its possible though with the expression pedal. I do though miss portamento, the monophonic type that allows one key to be held and another to be pressed so that the pitch bends up or down without the attack phase. In terms of expressive sounds, an expression pedal takes a bit of getting use to. Careful use of dual voices (in the case of the 740 or triple on the 8000/9000) can produce some nice results, especially with XG technology - but perhaps a breath controller adapted to fit the expression pedal input would be the best idea? The DSP's can also help out, again using the registration memories helps to make the changes in performance. Try changing the modulation wheel to other functions such as volume control or brightness, or even altering the level of voice R2 (or R3) - the same can be achieved with the foot pedal.

Simon



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________________________
Simon G.K. Williams
simon@svpworld.com
Creative Music & Multimedia
http://www.svpworld.com
________________________

Here's another thought. . . I much prefer the light, unweighted keys because for me it is much easier on the fingers to play 4 hours a night, five nights (or more) a week.
I noticed that when I had the G800, and even the X1, that my fingers would often be stiff and sore the next morning after a strenuous night. Maybe that's just another down side to getting old and brittle!
Personally, I can be more expressive with the lighter touch anyway, but that is most likely learned through many years of use.
I guess that's why we have choices.
Don

Simon, having listened to some of your products, you do seem to get a lot of expression out of your 740. A breath controller is a nice option, but sometimes you want to do other things with your mouth. Likewise, with the modulation wheel, there are other things to do with the left hand--at least according to your namesake Paul S. The foot controller is working well with me, although I do feel my feet are a little too clumsy for real-time control. The main reason I would be reluctant to buy a PSR-740 is the lack of aftertouch, which provides continuous control at your fingertips. However, you may not be much worse off than I am, since my PSR-8000 does not seem to implement it very well.

Comalite3, I like your thinking. A PSR9000Pro with a physical modeling card and a 6-D controller. I have not tried the ball controller you described. If arranger manufacturers do not adopt it, it could still be useful as an add on like the Kaoss pad.

I like the idea of a pressure-sensitive touch pad. Sort of like a Korg Z1 with velocity and pressure sensitivity. Sort of like the Korg Kaoss pad, but built into a keyboard and used for midi control. If I am allowed to go off the deep end, the touch pad could be a touch screen as well. The screen could indicate the effect of different actions on the pad. During programming mode, the touch screen could be used like those on the Triton and VA-7.

My ultimate expressive arranger would have polyphonic aftertouch and a velocity and pressure sensitive touch screen-pad. But I would like a chance to try comalite3s ball. As though I had the skills to take advantage of these control possibilities.

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 09-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 09-08-2000).]

Comalite3 notes that you cannot play chords and operate the 6-D controller at the same time (assuming the right hand is doing the lead.) It seems to me that only aftertouch and foot controllers allow someone to play with two hands and sing. Any ideas on how to make these controllers more than one dimensional?

It’s “COMALite J” not “COMALite 3”.

To get an idea of how responsive a force sensor-based controller can be, go to your local Office Depot, Office MAX, Circuit City, Sam’s Warehouse, or any other store likely to carry an IBM ThinkPad notebook and have it on display, or you can buy the IBM SmartScroll mouse (which is like a MS IntelliMouse or other wheel mouse, except that instead of a wheel it has one of those pencil-eraser-tip force-sensor things for scrolling in any direction, not just up and down). It does take a bit of practice, but no more, really, than learning to use a mouse for the first time did. It’s much more natural than touchpads or joysticks or trackballs, and your finger barely moves!

Now imagine this with a full six degrees of freedom, not just two! Three linear and three rotational axes!

I suppose a foot controller could be made with this technology, but in general people’s feet aren’t as dexterous as their hands (though that totally armless virtuoso violinist who played with his feet proves that the potential is there). Your foot would have to rest on a pedal with a shoe-like top attached to it, sort of like slipping your foot into a shoe with a very heavy sole. This would enable you to pull up as well as push down for the Z axis.

However, I think you could get quite a few continuous controls available from your feet and legs: anyone remember knee lever switches, such as many home organs used to use (Kimball and Yamaha both had them, as I recall)? Not to mention toe switches that were mounted on the sides of expression foot pedals, for momentary contact (usually a preset half-step down bending up into proper pitch glide) or toggle functions.

With two feet and two knees, you could have six continuous controllers (two for each knee, one to the left of the knee and one to the right, plus of course the two foot pedals themselves), plus four binary toe sitches, all without having to move a foot from off a pedal.

If these controls were made assignable to any CC or other function (pitch bend, channel aftertouch to give aftertouch to non-AT-equipped keyboards, etc.), that would be an accessory worth adding to any arranger keyboard or workstation or synth!

Touch screen interfaces have one very major disadvantage that seems to be forgotten: they are by far the single most blind-unfriendly interface available! There is nothing for a blind user to even feel! And how many famous blind musicians (often keyboardardists) are there? Has the industry so soon forgotten Stevie Wonder? How could he or someone like him ever learn to operate a Trinity, Triton, or VA-7, by himself?

Also on expressiveness: most of you seem to be willing to settle for voice crossfades and brightness and even mere volume ramps and other means of faking expression. Real wind instrument players, however, can do far more than that.

This is why I'm so pleased that the PSR9000 Pro will have at least one PLG slot (more if Yamaha has any smarts — though why they didn’t have any in the original PSR9000 is beyond me — they already had the functionality of one of the PLG cards: the Vocal Harmonizer, dating back to the PSR8000! And PLG technology itself dates back to the MU100R, which had its two PLG slots pre-loaded with the VH and VL PLG cards!).

I don’t care how good the Sweet!, Cool! and Live! samples are: they’re still samples. Until you’ve heard what VL can do, you have no idea how much more real the brass and wind sounds can get. But if you just hook up a VL capable device to the MIDI Out and select a VL voice and start playing keys, it won’t sound so real. The realism comes not from the basic tone quality, but from the expressiveness!

I’m not talking about volume or filters or brightness or other such artificial means of modifying tonality. I’m talking about voices that have, as actual continuous controller parameter names, such functions as Breath Pressure, Embrochure, Tonguing, Throat Formant, Growl, Scream, etc.! And the VL voices respond to all of these just as a real brass or wind instrument would to a real human player doing these techniques in real-time!

Now can you see why having a six-degrees-of-freedom control device would be so powerful, if you had a PLG-VL card plugged in?

If you want to hear some VL stuff, first get the SoundVQ Player, then go to and listen to the sample .VQF files for both the PLG-150VL and the VL-70m. Those of you lucky enough to have a sound card based on a Yamaha YMF 724 or better DS-XG chip such as I described in the PC Software and Hardware Forum under “Best Bang for the Buck” (or some such) can hear actual VL MIDI files, as your card (which may have cost less than $15) can emulate a VL-70m/PLG-150VL quite well (but apparently not the custom voice programming aspects). Or you could use S-YXG100plus if you have an Intel PII, PIII, or Celeron (no Cyrix or AMD chips).

Sorry, Comalite J, I guess Stevie is not the only one who is blind. By the way, to use a touch screen as a controller, you do not have to read it. It would be just like the cursor pads on laptop computers. For the button functions on touch pads, maybe a first touch would cause the keyboard to read the name of the button pushed, while a second push would activate it.

Anyway, I have another idea. My PSR-8000 has a bevel that extends in front of the keys. It would be a good place for a long pressure-sensitive ribbon controller. This would add two dimensions of control. I think, with one or two fingers on lead, the right thumb can operate the ribbon controller. For times when that does not work, the left hand can operate the ribbon. At least in some cases, there would be three dimensions of continuous control with both hands on the keyboard.

None of my ideas, replace the "Coma" 6-D controller, though. I assume it would be at the left side of the keys, where the pitch and mod wheels usually are.