Isn't there anyplace in the world I can post an opinion?

Guess not eh?

No opinions allowed. Anywhere. And my original post was not an opinion, it is fact, a style is pre-recorded music in a loop based playback system.

I can partially understand why what I said upset Simon, after all he makes his living selling styles, however do you really think what I say is going to change the FACTS?

The FACTS are that people who love styles love them with a fervor that couldn't be toppled by the Navy SEALS, US ARMY, Air Force and Marines put together.

Much less by little old me!

Which is fine by me, but damn I need a place to blow off some steam!

I was strangle-holded over at PSR songs for months and it still wasn't good enough for them that I grovveled, used styles, played music that THEY liked (and not what I wanted to play)

I tried to play the game their way and LOST ANYWAY

You bet I'm angry -- angry as hell!

Never in my life have I changed my own self SO MUCH TO PLEASE ANYONE and it still wasn't good enough for them! Do you realize what a sacrifice I made by playing their kind of music, using styles (albiet editid ones) even going so far as to MAKE ONE?

From now on "to thine own self be true" and I will -- If I do things my way and lose, fine then

That's all.

what gear do you own ?

I thought you started your own site. Surely you can let off steam there. Nobody here has censored or deleted anything you have said, even though every word has been negative comments about using styles.
We do use styles here. We also make our own sequences. There is nothing to be gained by attacking us because we use styles. All you are doing is antagonizing everyone.
This is a forum about helping each other.
How can we help you?
DonM

PSR740 ?

keys,
When you think about it really, all music is repetitive. AABA or ABBA or whatever. It is the same thing over and over verse chorus verse chorus. That really is the structure of music. If one composed without stucture and just ambled abstractly, I doubt that would sound very good musically.

Further all music is essentially loops as well. The guitarist or keyboard plays the same chords through the verse the same way, then get's to the chorus etc. The drummer essentially "loops" his drum pattern, playing the same beat over and over with a fill here and there and a big close. But this is all about the arrangement of a tune and what is the glue that holds the tune together. Without it, it would sound chaotic and like poop. Think of any song you have ever heard....that's what it does, repeats the stucture the melody the patterns over and over. They may do something tricky like transpose in the middle now and again, but then that repeats as well.

Now what makes any of it interesting are the melody line and the solos here and there.

If you choose to create music differently then what has been done, more power to you and go for it.

I view styles perhaps differently than you do. To me they are a back up band. No different than if one were to be a part of a band. In this case however I have through my purchase of the equipment also bought some of the best players in the world to come and "sit in" with me. It is up to me, what I want to get them to play and how to play it, tempo stucture, instruments. All the years I played with bands and composed, never once did I go to a practice and say, "here's a new tune guys, but you can't play on it, I'm going to play all the parts myself."

I don't see styles much if at all any different from that, except my keyboard doesn't lay around at a practice get too drunk to play and then want to quit early.

So you see, it's a matter of perspective and how one uses the tools that technology has brought to us. The board and styles are only tools and the musicianship comes not from the board, but who it is and what they are playing sitting behind it.

You'd probably be sadly disappointed by some of the most popular artists that are out there now and all the tricks they use in the studio, to include loops and samples and whatever else is available.

You're invited to the party here, but you also have to realize to arrive and insult everyone at the party, is not going to make you the most popular person there. The other danger that comes with posting an opinion on open forum, is that others with opposing points of view are going to call you on your opinion. If you cannot handle that heat....don't come into the kitchen and stir up the pot.

Some of the best musicians I have ever heard reside on this forum. Whether they use styles or samples or loops, to me is of little consequence. They are making music and good music is good music period. Again, it's less about the tools and more about what creatively one does with them.
jam on,
Terry

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 10-26-2002).]

HUBERT LAWS claimed that he never creates music. He simply re-arranges what has already been played.
ZUK

Cathy,

Hello again. You are welcome to this forum with all your opinions. But also you have to tolerate our own opinions as well. Please do not modify yourself to please any person. Are you seeking acceptance or are you seeking musical expression and fulfillment?

Please feel free to use or ignore styles. Please feel free to perform or abstain from styles. Please feel free to criticise or praise styles. But the same time, you will find other people with also strong opinions about styles. I do not agree with all the opinions that you presented as facts. Now remember that the most expensive instruments are arrangers. For example, Tyros is more expensive than Motif and Genesys is more expensive than any synth.

To nitpick, the Genesys is not more costly than a Kurzweil K2600X-AES, which lists for just under $20K. However, I am sure there are Wersi arrangers that are much more expensive than that.


[This message has been edited by Clif Anderson (edited 10-27-2002).]

Keys,
To me my music is an art and I'm sure you feel the same about yours. I may use a #10 brush and canvas while you may prefer #12 brush and oak tag. What ever in the end it's the enjoyment one feels and shares. If you don't like my paintings that's ok but someone else may want to purchase them. Your not obligated to buy it but don't say that it sucks especially if you can't sell yours. Somewhere I read that Darrel Hall wrote there first few hits on an i30. Now that’s a set of interesting brushes.... Lou

Lou,
I'm just thankful I paid attention in math class....really comes in handy for those little numbers on my canvasses.
Terry

Cliff,

While typing my reply, I was thinking of Kurzweil K2600 as well. However, I personally do not accept K2600 as a modern competing keyboard. I strongly believe its time is over and I will not pay for it more than $2000 regardless of how many upgrades it comes with. Nevertheless, you got a point. We cannot deny that K2600 was at one point the best sounding synth ever.

I think Cathy has some excellent points, IMO.

I'm a Flamenco Guitarist (35+ years, reasonably well known as an authority in the field (www.flamencochuck.com)

The Flamenco guitar is an extremely difficult instrument technically. So is any instrument carried to the limits of its parameters by talented musicians.

I bought an arranger (PA-80) to learn arranging, since the Korg had one of the best reputations for both voices and the quality of its styled.

But, it is really easy to play tons of music that sounds programmed by Korg without being creative at all, but which would sound "good" to any person who doesn't know music. Not that one can't play counter-rhythm scales, hemiola passages, or difficult rhythms (there are some great ones from the Middle East, and I can't wait to hear some of the Ketron and SD-1 stuff I've been hearing about from the Oriental Arrangers list.)

But it really is difficult to sound like the music isn't created for background music to the hot tubs after the grape stomping festivals in Montecito.

Maybe there are the equivalents of the Oscar Petersons', Stevie Ray Vaughns', the Paco de Lucia's, or the Mozarts that are now playing arrangers, but I have yet to be convinced.... it is just too easy to create elevator music, or la-la boomchicky stuff on these things......

Of course, I KNOW that NONE of you guys would even DREAM of playing like that....
you're SUCH sensitive musicians......

But hey, there is always me.....:-)

And it sure is fun to jam on Ciftetelli or Greek 9/8 (Zembekiko), after having heard so many fantastic interpretaions on Bouzouki (the real thing)......

So hang in there, Cathy. From what I've read, I pretty much agree with you. But I sure love my PA-80......

"Flamenco Chuck" Keyser, El Bitano http://members.aol.com/BuleriaChk/private/flamenco.html (www.flamencochuck.com)

"Compas Analysis", "A Flamenco Journey", "Music Theory for Flamenco", Other Resources

------------------
www.flamencochuck.com

[This message has been edited by BuleriaChk (edited 10-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by BuleriaChk (edited 10-27-2002).]

There is no way that could be true. They had many albums out WAY before the invention of the i30. They were recording back at Temple in the 70's - when I was there !

All right UD, maybe it was the birth of the i30 or even the i3 that he utilized the arranger for a couple of tunes...At that time it was advertised in a few magazines. Good luck searching....



[This message has been edited by Lou Y (edited 10-27-2002).]

I have often heard (mostly by my Mom) "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything." But when I though of just posting silence I was afraid of getting sued for copyright violation

The discussions revolving around the arrangers have provoked some thought in my mind. Was I "cheating" myself in some way by not playing every part of the song myself? No, I don't think I was.

I enjoy listening to music. Some people don't really appreciate it as a true gift. My wife has never heard anything in her life. Any kind of music is fine with me. I have played songs on my PSR2000 and switched styles in the middle creating whole new patterns of songs and sounds. If it makes me feel good then that is my bottom line.
I have gotten almost every friend that visited me since I purchased it to sing with me! A lot of them are ready to go home and purchase one for themselves!
I have also played a melody line (made up songs) to go with a few of the styles. To me that is writing music. The fake books never even put the rest of the songs there. It is just easier to "fake" with an arranger keyboard.
I am so happy with the keyboard and can't wait to jam with my friends with it.
Some things if you ignore they go away. If you scratch a misquito bite it will get bigger. With the love and respect shared in this forum I hope that it is enough to overcome any bad opinions.
Let's make some more music now (and then talk about it).

- Brian

Brian,
well said...

Lou

Hello

You know this scenario with some of these last threads in question reminds me of something my minister once said: "everything one does is either an act of love or a cry for love". I guess that's something that holds true for all of us all the time. Really makes you stop and think doesn't it?

Scott Langholff

Someone once said:
"Hatred is a degenerated form of love".
This too makes you think, uh?

Motivating an audience in any given direction is the ultimate musical challenge, and while I don't like every kind of music or musician I see, I always appreciate the testicular fortitude it takes to pull off a performance - and the results always speak for themselves. Now matter the instrument, if you are able to entertain and compete with other entertainers on an ongoing basis, you must be doing something right. If you aren't, you'll know it quickly enough. I've seen guys make their entire livings for decades off of arranger keyboards... obviously the ability to use an arranger keyboard to it's fullest potential is a profitable job skill.