this is one cool keyboard! after my 2nd trip to sam ash eliminated the pa80 from further consideration,I wandered over to the pro synth room and had a blast with this new roland keyboard. What cool sounds! These drums rock! also-compare the build quality for what you get in an arranger,from any company,in the $1800 range. We are getting ripped on arrangers!
Hey George-do you have the Fantom?
Is the va series anyting like this sound quality? My only exposure to a va7 is a piano salesman playing polkas-I never got to touch it! and then when He said "its only $5000"----I was laughing when I hit the front door!
Bill E

Hey Bill! LOL! About you running for the front door!

I would like to know a little more about this Roland Fantom (actually, there are a few demos' - and video's here: Roland
Fantom Video/Audio Demo's .
And your right about these drums Bill, they are very cool . The great thing about it, is 76 keys, Slots for JV(1)/XV(2) cards (three slots available)Professional XV-5080 sound engine with 64 voices and 16 multitimbral parts, Arpeggiator and Rhythm generator. And lots more of course.

You say not an arranger but....

Well, let me tell you that the Fantom is a workstation, with a Sequencer, and in this way you build up songs using these functions. You add drums, add tracks, and then you get your sound. What have you done? - you have Arranged a performance, except with the Fantom, you will have had to work a little more, since there are no ready-made "Backing styles". I think a keyboard like this be very creative, and should be discussed (IN MY OPINION) along side arranger keyboards like Kn6500, Yamaha 9000 etc. If the end justifies the means, and that being: "Getting that sound" then why not class it as an arranger? - Because although different from a keyboard with automatic accompaniment, you can get that Rhythm & swing, or Dance ...or whatever, if you are prepared to work at it.

One of the reasons I didn't go for a Roland VA7, is that you virtually have to do nothing once you have set your sounds up. And as FUTURE MUSIC put it VA7 Review Let's be clear on this point, you won't need virtuoso fingers to sound good on the VA-7. In fact, you'll barely need fingers at all. In an emergency you could probably just about scrape by using just your nose.!.

That was kind of funny to read...but you have to ask yourself a serious question....DO "ARRANGER" people rely TOO much on the....well "Arranger" feature shall we say?? (or Auto this, Auto that etc)? I used to play the Piano a lot, and feel (sometimes), that I am going "backwards" on my musical Prowess, so to speak. I play the KN6500 a lot, but most of the backings are "Home made". In essance, I could probably manage without the Auto play funcions anyway....and just use the Composer to help me with the Backing styles. You can have too much done for you (you know), and I don't Akin to that...

I'm all for getting the right sound, but will be prepared to work for it if I have to...and having everything done for you in the Accompaniment is not my cup of tea to be honest. I have a KN6500, but I can tell you that I compose most of the Rhythms myself, even though there are 220 onboard ones (with Variations)

These New Workstations like the Fantom are really worth a look Bill

Oh, and here's the best bit...they are Only £1,386 from A&C Hamilton (they will go lower if you push em'! compared to £1799 for a 61 note VA7 You get a lot of keyboard for your buck bill!

J5



[This message has been edited by Jupiter5 (edited 11-08-2001).]

Hey guys,
Here comes Mr. Nay sayer....not really but, I just came off 2 workstations, the Karma and the Motif. I started with a 9000 went to those, now I'm back at an arranger the PA 80.
While the workstations are very cool and versatile, it is a vast understatement to say you need to "just" work at it. If you want to see workstation wo's visit www.motifator.com. and look at some of the issues there and frustration.
I looked at the Fantom before buying the PA. The Fantom had some nice features, I especially like the arppegiators and how tweekable they are I also like that Roland makes a ton of different boards with sounds for their equipment. That all being said, I've come full circle and I think my music went down the toilet for the year I played with the workstations. Some people make great music on them, some of the best, but man they are a huge hassle to work with if you're doing anything more complicated then picking a voice to play.
there's my 2 cents worth,
Terry

Jocko, by all means, press the auto play feature and solo over the top. And if you make great music that way, and delight your audience, then you have achieved your objective.

But for me, this just isn't the way to play, or create professional arrangements. More is needed. If one is going to play an arranger keyboard to produce versatile sounds, I would at least use the "Pianist" mode that is available on top arrangers, and actually play the thing!(using advanced chords as well) - with two hands. If one can't play the keyboard anyway...then the "auto backing" maybe the only way out for those lacking the ability to string a few chords together with BOTH hands.

Jock, I've been down this workstation road, and started off with the Korg M1. It wasn't easy to work with at first, but I soon got into it. Now, however, workstations are different animals, with the ability to trigger arpeggios, Loops & grooves at the touch of a button - or key (Did I say Auto??). You say you once had Karma. Well, there are people on the Triton forum who eschew this keyboard...because they say it is like an arranger!! (Chord recognition etc), and "Does it all for you" etc etc.

It all depends on your style of music, and what you want to play that determines whether you are a "Workstation" or an "Arranger" man. If you like Dance/Techno/...don't buy a PSR/Casio, they won't be up to the job (at least, not in the professional sense of the word - even if there are "Dance" preset Rhythms etc). A Triton/Karma/Motif etc will be more suitable for these applications.

On the other hand, if you like "easy listening" type of music, then the last thing you need is to spend hours, weeks, even Months, doing “button” pressing for most of your time. There are many ways to get you music to sound good, but I still have to say that: "Arranger keyboards are the "easier" way out". I like to work a bit for mine – just to get that “extra” professionalism into my music.

-------------------

J5

Jupiter,
A few things:
1. I don't know where you're coming from other than musical snobbery.
2. I'm working on my 42nd cd and have been doing it for 30+ years, so I think I have a fairly good idea of what making music is about.
3. You make just as complex things as you want to on an arranger as you can on a workstation.
4. It's pretty hypocritical of you to downgrade auto accmp.,when you press the arp button on a workstation, you're doing exactly the same thing. Or slicing and dicing on a sequencer.
5. A great tune is a great tune no matter how you get there.
6. I think you'd be unpleasantly surprised to see what tricks the "pros" as you have obviously put yourself in that class use in the studio. Ie., loops, computer generated music, vocal harmonizers etc.
7. You can have the most complex piece of equipment, be a great player as you deem yourself and still turn out absolute junk, not worth the space taken up on a hard disc.
8. If you use the bass or strings or any other patch off a workstation....than you're taken the easy and lazy way out as well....learn to play the violin and bass and whatever other patch you use. Otherwise you're only B.S.'n yourself that you're doing it the "pro" way to make music.
Great technical ability and bustin' your nuts to record/play does not take the place of musical creativity. It just means you're working harder not smarter to acheive the same goal.
As far as you're snobby comments about the genre of easy listening music....you're entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong.
About the only thing I agree with you on is if you want to make techno and hip hop and that simplistic music, you're right, the new workstations are for you, that's what they do best.
Terry

Don't forget Jock, I play an arranger myself, but not in the usual "Arranger" sort of way, that includes pressing one "touch play" and all is "done for you".

I am kind of in the "middle" here. I like both "Workstations" & "Arrangers", and the better bread & butter sounds are on arranger keyboards I would say (Piano/Brass/Soloist sounds and so forth). However, when I need to add that "professional" touch, then I nearly always have to use my arranger (KN6500) in a different way (almost like what it wasn't designed for). This is were Pro workstations fit in for me, and hope to purchase one very soon to go along with my arranger.

I'm not as old as you, but my father and great grandfather (and also his father) have a great history of making music, that spans over many years (19th century). Music is in the Family I would say in this houshold, and my father, even though he is nearly 70 years of age now, plays rachmaninov very well, and also lots of Chopin. I use my arranger for fun...then get on the Piano for some serious music.

I used to be a Guitar teacher as well, and have played works by Bach (transcribed by Segovia), Fernando Sor, And Villa Lobos (S/American Composer). I see you have quite a collection of guitars yourself, and also a violin I believe. Isn't that a Karma there along side you Terry?.

Cheers

J5, England, UK



[This message has been edited by Jupiter5 (edited 11-08-2001).]

Bill,
Yes I carry the Fantom and yes I agree it is a very good pro workstation. But, now that the VA7 is just a couple of hundred dollars more, here is what you get. Yes, an arranger, but with those good drum sounds as the Fantom and those really good strings, piano, brass, etc. sounds. You can record in 16 track mode just like on the Fantom except you might not have quite as many editable peramaters to adjust (although I'm not quite sure about that). 61 keys, same feel as the 76 fantom. A zip drive and a sampler on the VA7. Only a disk drive on Fantom. The VA7 gives you 128 note poly where the fantom has only 64, so you have more tracks to record on the VA7 without notes disapearing. The difference is that the fantom has more synth type sounds and pads and a lot more extensive sound and effect editing. But it depends on what you need. Perhaps in England the price is so different for the VA7, but now that I've been able to get the VA7 down to a much lower price, the VA has a lot to offer! They are both very good choices depending on what you like and need in a keyboard.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

As far as original music, I think the arranger keyboards are preferable for creating demos and the workstations are preferable for the final product.

I am crazy about my PSR 740, and looking forward to getting a PSR 2000 any day now. If I have an incredible song idea in my head, an arranger keyboard used with a computer sequencer will give me the quickest approximation of my inspiration. But if I had a record contract, I would want to start closer to scratch and would want a workstation.
For expressing a song idea, there are so many great styles out there that can do a song justice, especially with editing with an external sequencer. And if you want better voices, you can use your arranger with a soft synth like Gigastudio.
But I could see a modern Beethoven grooving on a workstation more than on an arranger.
This is just my impression.

Larry

J5, Well I had an irate defense of Arranger Keyboards all typed out, but decided not to go there. There is a place for Workstations, and a place for Arrangers. Great music can be achieved by both. At first I thought I would say that this is the forum for Arrangers and it isn't cool to put us Arranger Users down in our own house just because we might use them differently than you do. But I realized you didn't mean any harm, so I don't have to mention it.
We are always open to different viewpoints and new ideas, but I certainly hope that not using the Pianist Mode doesn't keep me from being a professional. I don't think I would like getting a "real" job after 30 years of making music full time.
I feel I can be much more creative when entertaining in a live situation by playing along with my Arranger Keyboard "band" than with a pre-recorded sequence, which, and I may be mistaken here, would be necessary when using a Workstation. This allows me to extend the song, add a chorus to keep people dancing, create medleys on the fly, hold a chord while I joke with the audience--whatever. I very seldom use the Pianist Mode, even though I'm quite capable of stringing chords together with both hands, because, first of all, I'm not a pianist, I'm a keyboard player. I use the chord hold function to free up my left hand to use the pitch-bend and modulation wheels to add realism to the voices I'm playing. I often play several notes at once with my right hand, as a guitar player or organist might do. In the Pianist Mode, this too easily calls up the wrong chord. Not using the Pianist Mode doesn't make me less professional. Only making less money would do that. Before I learned to entertain, I also taught guitar, trumpet and I could play all the classics on trumpet. Now THAT was lucrative!!
Anyway, I'm sure glad I decided not to speak out on this, because I need to be getting some rest before tomorrows gigs.
DonM

I have really enjoyed this small debate here. As a 50 year old with a life history from age 5 involved in piano, guitar, brass, and now exclusely as a jazz pianist in a duo - where I do some composing - I have a combined workstation/arranger interest. Having owned several synths - Rolands, Yamahas, Triton, Karma,M1 - ad nauseum - I do know that great sounds and sequences can come from them. I feel they are primarily designed for ensemble or studio work. The arranger seems truly targeted (so far) at the needs of the one-man-band. The sounds are normally combined sounds and don't tend to be as powerful or sophisticated as stand alone synths for that reason (I think). There is an argument that workstations provide primarily a sequenced song/song style - which if you play against it with another instrument is like playing along with a tape/cd. Arrangers? - completely opposite. Unfortunately - from my experience - both of those methods can sound a bit canned for my taste -

What I hope to do when I find the best arranger for me is to do both - and use each method somewhat minimally compared to my actual realtime piano playing - that is - to have some real time accompaniment - and to occasionally press a button(s) to trigger a recorded sequence(s)such as one might do on a work station - I believe using both of those methods in conjunction with basic piano playing has the potential to really catch the attention of very talented musicians who have felt that arrangers belong in the toy category. I am guilty of having had the same thoughts - and no doubt some of it is related to music snobbery - things change. One thing I know for sure. Musicians are really attracted to the latest, greatest thing. It takes a great deal of maturity to quit buying and accept your own limits as well as figuring out how to best use the time you have available for creating and playing.

regards
Mike

To all,
Interesting points made by all. One of the most interesting I find as a common thread, most all here seem to equate professionalism and creating pro/real/serious music with the equipment one uses. Following that logic, I'd ask you to consider this:
Would I. Pearlman, YoYo Ma, S.R.Vaughn, S. Wonder, C. Atkins,E. Johnson on and on be any less the professional if they were creating on less expensive equipment?
Thinking that buying a $3000. guitar as opposed to a $300. guitar is somehow miraculosly turning one into a pro great player....c'mon.
To be sure a Strad. violin sounds a whole lot better than a Palatino Pearlman would sound great on either and probably 99% of the people sitting in the audience wouldn't know the difference. The 1% that's left, is us the musicians who could hear the difference.
Don't totally misunderstand me, if you've been to my site, you can see I have quite a bit invested in high end equipment and love it, but I don't think that's the debate here.
Also those who look down at those of us that may prefer arrangers for whatever reason:
If one is a keyboard player say in the jazz genre.....Thelonius Monk or Oscar Peterson, didn't play a synth, just straight piano. Does that make a jazz synth pianist not a real "Pro"....of course not.
All of the equipment is just tools and taking advantage of the technology available.
If one plays in a band....you're doing exactly the same thing that an arranger keyboard does. 1,2,3,4 and the band starts to play, you don't run to each instrument and play it, even in the studio.
Think about Sgt. Peppers or Thriller or Dark Side of The Moon and all the tricks that went into produing these great albums. Are they not "pro" for using all the tricks to create a great album?
Jupiter....those are violins (that I play) in the picture. Yes that is a Karma too. If you look at my original post I had a Karma, then a Motif. The only thing I bumrapped them for was being too complex to be of value to me. I spent more time tweeking and stuff than making music. Also, to me they are far more slanted to dance and techno music and that isn't what I do. I'm rather surprised with your excellent musical backround that you would be so judgemental. Although your last post toned it down a bit.
The one last analogy I want to make is, are we cheating driving cars with automatic transmission instead of stick shift...I don't think so and driving either says nothing about one's driving ability.
What I suppose I'm trying to express in this thread is:
You want to take the first giant leap to being a pro? Then leave the musical snobbery at the front door and accept others music for what it is....creative expression. Appreciate it for that, not some judgemental baggage that you bring to the table about "pros" use......that's just a big boys peeing contest of I'm better than you are because.....
jam on,
Terry

[This message has been edited by Jocko (edited 11-09-2001).]

I have to agree completely with Terry here, you can do everything on an arranger as in any workstation at least now a days it is possible arranger keyboards were different 10-15 years ago when you was stuck with presets drum beats and auto acc. that is not the case any more right now you can do everything on a arranger from scratch and more I have a PA-80 and if you want to use it as a synth it is even more powerful than Triton with 4 OSC (Yeah 1,2,3,4 OSC) per voice and the program editing is same as Triton now before that I had the i30 and it was capable of doing everything now there are other features in Triton which are not there in PA-80 (like sampling, MOSS) but you can produce commercially using an arranger if that is what PRO do, even people with Triton use some other media like a computer to further edit and record vocals same can be done with an arranger, I think that is why they are called arranger Terry I get the same typical reaction from so called pros "arranger is for home users" and I say yeah right.

Arbaz,
Great minds obviously think alike....don't we?
To me it's not so much which toy one owns, it's what they do with it.
Terry

I only want to have a good time at the keys!


Krix

PS I do not want to be a Beethoven, he was deaf. DS

Krix,
I'm with you....just make music for the sheer joy it brings to me.
Terry

My daughter - a 16 yr. old who plays piano also - and has a wide range of tastes from Diana Krall to Garth Brooks to Cranberries and back - had an interesting comment re: my use of an arranger or workstation to recreate other instruments in a live playing situation. She thought it was real strange from a listeners perspective to hear woodwinds and brass being generated from a keyboard. The word she used was 'fake'. Now with her range of taste she really ain't no musical snob - but she does have a perspective in regards to canned sound that can be widely found in people of all levels of musical ability - from none to maximum. I asked her if she felt the same way when she couldn't see what or who was playing - obviously then it didn't matter - only how good she thought the music was at that point. I'm trying to find a point in here - thought I had one somewhere........I guess I feel that while musical taste is very subjective - the quality of musicianship is not. There are definitely different levels of it and it is bound to come out during performance of most any kind - studio or live. Inability to recognize it or describe the differences in words doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Doesn't mean its really important either. The ability to use a workstation or arranger to its capacity - is closely tied with musicianship and time available. Is it possible to be a snob about musicianship without being a snob about music?? I guess one point I'd like to make is that the outcome of discussion over use of arrangers vs. workstations is also awaiting the reaction of the live audience general public and what levels of pre-programmed music they will accept from a performer. It is obviously different for every genre of music.

Interesting discussion - especially since it is clear that preprogammed accompaniment styles are becoming a standard inclusion on workstations, synths, keyboards, and of course the grand-daddy arranger

regards
Mike H

Mike,
Interesting observations by both you and your daughter. Here's what somewhat surprises me though from you daughter. Her generation is basically the one that invented the guy standing behind a couple of people and what he is doing is punching buttons on a box containing samples, I'm not sure how "real" that is, or what level of musicianship (depending on how you are defining it in your post)that is either.
That's not to say its good or bad, because on that we can agree...it's purely subjective.
The other thing one should consider about real vs fake.....what instrument does a synth sound emulate in the real world? None. It is an invented bunch of oscillators and FX and envelopes etc. There is nothing "real" about that sound except the emulation of itself. Does that make it a real instrument....define your terms of real.If one is willing to accept that sound as real, then logically one would have to accept any sound that comes off a synth as being real, as it is only emulating that which it is...a synth sound, it may happen to sound like a flute or whatever, but it's not. a synth may sound like a piano, but it's not a piano, it only emulates one with sound generators and the like, so is it real or fake?
I think a lot of us here judging by the posts can remember pre synth days, when the first strange hi tech thing to hit the market was the Fender Rhodes and were it not for the likes of Chick Corea and Herbie Hancock who introduced them respectfully into a new type of jazz, those babies might have gone the wayside. Or when the first DX7 hit the streets.
I once long ago read a definition of Musicianship: "The constant striving to improve ones abilities and the their creative process."
If we can accept that defintion then the rest of this debate in this thread is just rhetoric.
Terry

Hi Terry
Not sure if my 16 yr. old daughter's generation invented anything like you refer to - but I wish they would invent a vacuum cleaner and bedroom organizer of their own and use it!!!!!!!!!!!!

As far as that definition of "Musicianship" that you posted - "the constant striving to improve one's abilities and creative process" - seems like that is not so much musicianship but the amount of diligence and work one can muster up. I guess to me "musicianship" connotes a level of some sort - perhaps a level of professionalism - and certainly a level of ability and skill attainment are in there somewhere.

As far as 'real vs. fake' in sound generation. My guess is that manufactures label instrument banks with terms like brass and woodwinds because thats exactly what they are trying to emulate. Real vs. fake to me is only significant in live performance when one starts to look around for that 'sax' player coming out the speakers. Some folks - probably most - don't care about that at all. My audience certainly would have a different take on it. They'd call it fake and less desirable than more - and I can see why. Synth sounds on the other hand have an origin and history rooted in the keyboard - and why some folks might find that sound more real than fake is a logical perspective also.

In the final analysis - the successful use of a musical instrument is only contingent on the performer and listener - and that is often just a matter of degree - not black and white. You gotta go with what works.

regards
Mike

You could well be describing a workstation there Arbaz, in that you say "you can do everything on an arranger as in any workstation" (you are "likening a workstation to an arranger in other words).

Try listening to the Fantom video Demo, and you will find out that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to make a tune up. The sequencer on this thing is so easy to use...

I think it is when you start talking about creating songs "TOTALLY" from scratch, without any preset Ryhthms etc. But most, if not all workstations have this sort of facility now, and are much easier to get round, and create Proffessional Music.

Same as My Dad says everytime I turn on my KN6500, crank up a Rhythm, and start soloing over the top he says "You should get stuck into your Piano studies, you will never get anywhere with that "do-it-yourself" keyboard

The Only Backing my dad had when he was performing, was the applause of the Crowd!. And as someone told my DAD: "Organist & keyboard players are two a penny, but few can entertain With a Piano alone, like you".

Don't even start me on this "Djing" stuff, in which the "Performer" who dares to call himself Musically gifted........

J5

You won Jupiter5,

I am really not a pro by any means, yes I have read and seen the Fantom, have worked on both Triton and trinity have used Yamaha 9000 pro and also have used Motif and been using i30 for 2 years but I am no expert so I'll just leave the discussion to pros & prodigies, after all I am just an arranger (home keyboard) user. :-)

PA-80 user


[This message has been edited by Arbaz (edited 11-09-2001).]

Arbaz,
I think I'm going to go with you on this one. If someone wants to think they've got the bead on what it takes to be a "pro" by the equipment or methods they are using and anyone who is doing it some other way is an amateur....oh well. Or that in the final analysis it is the stamp of approval by a live audience to judge whether we are real or fake, or the work is good or bad.
I think in both cases, the perspective of making music however for the sheer pleasure of the sound is lost.
Success and professionalism and muscianship is a state of mind the rest of this stuff is mere judgemental mumbo jumbo to make one feel better than the next, by what baggage they are carrying.
Me, I'm making music guilt free...if someone wants to say, oh I don't respect your work because you use an arranger instead of a workstation, or you don't scratch out a tune note by note for every different part, well that's their hang up, not mine. I'm not making music to impress them anyway, that's what adolescents do.
Terry

[This message has been edited by Jocko (edited 11-09-2001).]

Jupiter

Hang in there - I think I know where you might be coming from in trying to use the strengths of a workstation and arranger - and it is without a doubt that these instruments are moving closer together - or they wouldn't be putting so many full accompaniment patches on all these so called work stations. Creativity is often inspired by having a template in front of you to save time and therefore energy for the project. Now our templates are getting more sophisticated. Hats off to your dad for encouraging you to play the piano as an instrument. A good grounding in keyboard technique and two hand complexities should certainly enhance your ability to use the modern tools in arrangers and workstations.

The way that people use arrangers for the most part is why they call them "arrangers" and not "writers". They seem to have alot in common with guys in the production studio who choose from alot of different tracks and takes for the final cut. Is this making music? Sure? Is it the same as playing the music? Not too sure about that. Is it important - probably not.

Terry seems completely right about one thing - and that is we can never forget that the primary beneficiary of our music is our own selves - and I have always told people that I believe this is the highest and best use of music. sound for its own sake. On the other hand - as soon as we put our music out for public consumption - we open ourselves to scrutiny on alot of levels besides just personal taste - and that includes all the historical standards by which music is evaluated - melody, harmony, complexity, diversity, sonority, rhythmic interest, mood stability, voice leading, nuance, musical humor, quality of flow, use of repetition and motif, chord quality, individuality, creativity, balance.

Accomplished musicians like your father who made little or no use of modern plug and play accompaniments - can be admired for their successes without thinking they have the corner on what music is. On the other hand - musicians who rely on these new tools to put out music for other than personal enjoyment - have a tougher road to acceptance - which is proportional to just how 'canned' it all sounds. Playing live - the challenge is all the greater.

I'd like to think that arranger keyboards will rise to the challenge - and that musicians from all walks of life will find them usable.

regards
Mike

Mike,
Good thoughts.
One thing I always think about as inspiration for me...re: the public scrutiny
VanGough.....1 painting to his brother, was he less of a master. The impressionists were barred from the salon of painters, because what they were doing, wasn't really painting.
If one judges the success of a musician and their work by commercial success, including public scrutiny and acceptance....I'm sad to say that most all who post an all the forums combined, are doomed to failure, if that is to be the criteria, because in reality other than minor bouts of gigging, very few make it to the big time.
I think the other thing about judging that way, take a look at some of the main stream acts that are out there, I'm not so sure I would call them talented great musicians, to me more like packaged, marketed products rather than pro musicians.
I think it is interesting the criteria you laid forth for judging others work and while I don't disagree, I think that's the way one musician judges another on a technical level. The vast majority of the public would not have a clue as to what you are talking about. If you asked them well, why is that such a great tune do you think...uh I don't know man it's got a good beat and I like the way the dude wails on the guitar.
Never under estimate the buying taste of the public.
You are absoultely right though, if we put our work out in public, we are asking to be critisized about it. Isn't that sad that others don't just accept and support the effort, especially our own fellow struggling musicians.
Isn't that what a forum is really supposed to be about helping and supporting each other regardless of how we make our music, as opposed to a heirarchy of princes and paupers, that play top me. At least that's what I thought they were supposed to be, not a place of superiority complexes.
Terry

Hi Terry

Interesting condundrum - striking a balance between pleasing ourselves and struttin our stuff!!! Forums - somewhat like playing music for the public - involve putting our opinions and ideas out for consumption. I believe people can be supportive of each other's effort to be a musician without finding a whole lot of heartwarming things to say about another's approach. While excellence is obviously in no way measured by commercial success - (it's impossible to overestimate the vulgarity in consumer tastes and unbelievable how much percussive/rhythmic emphasis has robbed modern music of its soul) - it doesn't seem appropriate that artistic expression be devoid of criteria for excellence either. Without standards of excellence, it is difficult to envision how or why we would encourage young promising musicians to be 'all they can be' - after all - there is some beautiful but difficult music out there.
I would like to see everyone learning how to play some kind of instrument. And for them to be told that their own enjoyment is a high level of achievement. Just like listening to a CD should bring you enjoyment. The 'arranger' has a little of both. It's kind of part live musician - part recorded musician(s). Nobody's in charge of deciding whether or not it is music.

regards
Mike

Mike,
I think you and I have finally reached mid ground and can agree with each other.
I certainly hope no offense was taken with the other posts, as none was meant.
One thing that I find very fascinating about we musicians is this....we spend months if not years in solitude, practicing our chops and all else that goes with it and then have to go in public and bare are fragile egos and souls, to gain validation for our work.
An interesting dichotomy indeed,
Terry

Too mucho words for me, at least now(Saturday evening).


Krix

PS Is it difficult to be a new Mozart? DS

jupiter 5----thanks for reply---but can't an arranger with a sequencer do anything that a workstation can do,except detailed sound editing? I love the idea of having style sections to work with but most sound so lifeless. what struck me about the fantom is it sounds so cool. the drums do not sound like they are played by a drummer thats half asleep! however,like most drum machines,there are no intos and endings.only arrangers seem to provide intros and endings.

Just a thought..I wonder if Mozart were alive and comosing today if he would scoff at " arrangers" or "workstations". I think a lot of folks are trained to believe that the old way or the "hard way" is always the better way, but I disagree at least in part with that notion. ( Read on...I encourage learning your instrument ) Times change and so does technology, and there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of that. Those of us who are "natural" keyboard or piano players just happen to be fortunate in that our instruments of choice happen to be the ones that midi is built around. These are today's tools and that is just what they are..tools, not a substitute for a dedicated keyboard player that should prevent him / her from learning the art of musicianship. Too often I saw the same mentality being displayed in other areas of life..my example.." I'm not going to use that nail gun.. real carpenters use a hammer". Guess what.. I've heard that more than once and those are usually the kinds of guys that get left way behind in today's technological world.

Having said that, I also strongly believe that if piano, synth, or organ is going to be your instrument of choice, not giving even the least thought to what others think of you, but it is only to your benefit to learn to play it properly without any arranger or accompaniment features. Learn the basics, learn to read music, practice scales and timing drills, listen to the techniques and styles of master players, because later on down the road it actually does help you even IF all you will be doing is composing in midi.

AJ