To all,
Interesting points made by all. One of the most interesting I find as a common thread, most all here seem to equate professionalism and creating pro/real/serious music with the equipment one uses. Following that logic, I'd ask you to consider this:
Would I. Pearlman, YoYo Ma, S.R.Vaughn, S. Wonder, C. Atkins,E. Johnson on and on be any less the professional if they were creating on less expensive equipment?
Thinking that buying a $3000. guitar as opposed to a $300. guitar is somehow miraculosly turning one into a pro great player....c'mon.
To be sure a Strad. violin sounds a whole lot better than a Palatino Pearlman would sound great on either and probably 99% of the people sitting in the audience wouldn't know the difference. The 1% that's left, is us the musicians who could hear the difference.
Don't totally misunderstand me, if you've been to my site, you can see I have quite a bit invested in high end equipment and love it, but I don't think that's the debate here.
Also those who look down at those of us that may prefer arrangers for whatever reason:
If one is a keyboard player say in the jazz genre.....Thelonius Monk or Oscar Peterson, didn't play a synth, just straight piano. Does that make a jazz synth pianist not a real "Pro"....of course not.
All of the equipment is just tools and taking advantage of the technology available.
If one plays in a band....you're doing exactly the same thing that an arranger keyboard does. 1,2,3,4 and the band starts to play, you don't run to each instrument and play it, even in the studio.
Think about Sgt. Peppers or Thriller or Dark Side of The Moon and all the tricks that went into produing these great albums. Are they not "pro" for using all the tricks to create a great album?
Jupiter....those are violins (that I play) in the picture. Yes that is a Karma too. If you look at my original post I had a Karma, then a Motif. The only thing I bumrapped them for was being too complex to be of value to me. I spent more time tweeking and stuff than making music. Also, to me they are far more slanted to dance and techno music and that isn't what I do. I'm rather surprised with your excellent musical backround that you would be so judgemental. Although your last post toned it down a bit.
The one last analogy I want to make is, are we cheating driving cars with automatic transmission instead of stick shift...I don't think so and driving either says nothing about one's driving ability.
What I suppose I'm trying to express in this thread is:
You want to take the first giant leap to being a pro? Then leave the musical snobbery at the front door and accept others music for what it is....creative expression. Appreciate it for that, not some judgemental baggage that you bring to the table about "pros" use......that's just a big boys peeing contest of I'm better than you are because.....
jam on,
Terry

[This message has been edited by Jocko (edited 11-09-2001).]

I have to agree completely with Terry here, you can do everything on an arranger as in any workstation at least now a days it is possible arranger keyboards were different 10-15 years ago when you was stuck with presets drum beats and auto acc. that is not the case any more right now you can do everything on a arranger from scratch and more I have a PA-80 and if you want to use it as a synth it is even more powerful than Triton with 4 OSC (Yeah 1,2,3,4 OSC) per voice and the program editing is same as Triton now before that I had the i30 and it was capable of doing everything now there are other features in Triton which are not there in PA-80 (like sampling, MOSS) but you can produce commercially using an arranger if that is what PRO do, even people with Triton use some other media like a computer to further edit and record vocals same can be done with an arranger, I think that is why they are called arranger Terry I get the same typical reaction from so called pros "arranger is for home users" and I say yeah right.

Arbaz,
Great minds obviously think alike....don't we?
To me it's not so much which toy one owns, it's what they do with it.
Terry

I only want to have a good time at the keys!


Krix

PS I do not want to be a Beethoven, he was deaf. DS

Krix,
I'm with you....just make music for the sheer joy it brings to me.
Terry

My daughter - a 16 yr. old who plays piano also - and has a wide range of tastes from Diana Krall to Garth Brooks to Cranberries and back - had an interesting comment re: my use of an arranger or workstation to recreate other instruments in a live playing situation. She thought it was real strange from a listeners perspective to hear woodwinds and brass being generated from a keyboard. The word she used was 'fake'. Now with her range of taste she really ain't no musical snob - but she does have a perspective in regards to canned sound that can be widely found in people of all levels of musical ability - from none to maximum. I asked her if she felt the same way when she couldn't see what or who was playing - obviously then it didn't matter - only how good she thought the music was at that point. I'm trying to find a point in here - thought I had one somewhere........I guess I feel that while musical taste is very subjective - the quality of musicianship is not. There are definitely different levels of it and it is bound to come out during performance of most any kind - studio or live. Inability to recognize it or describe the differences in words doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Doesn't mean its really important either. The ability to use a workstation or arranger to its capacity - is closely tied with musicianship and time available. Is it possible to be a snob about musicianship without being a snob about music?? I guess one point I'd like to make is that the outcome of discussion over use of arrangers vs. workstations is also awaiting the reaction of the live audience general public and what levels of pre-programmed music they will accept from a performer. It is obviously different for every genre of music.

Interesting discussion - especially since it is clear that preprogammed accompaniment styles are becoming a standard inclusion on workstations, synths, keyboards, and of course the grand-daddy arranger

regards
Mike H

Mike,
Interesting observations by both you and your daughter. Here's what somewhat surprises me though from you daughter. Her generation is basically the one that invented the guy standing behind a couple of people and what he is doing is punching buttons on a box containing samples, I'm not sure how "real" that is, or what level of musicianship (depending on how you are defining it in your post)that is either.
That's not to say its good or bad, because on that we can agree...it's purely subjective.
The other thing one should consider about real vs fake.....what instrument does a synth sound emulate in the real world? None. It is an invented bunch of oscillators and FX and envelopes etc. There is nothing "real" about that sound except the emulation of itself. Does that make it a real instrument....define your terms of real.If one is willing to accept that sound as real, then logically one would have to accept any sound that comes off a synth as being real, as it is only emulating that which it is...a synth sound, it may happen to sound like a flute or whatever, but it's not. a synth may sound like a piano, but it's not a piano, it only emulates one with sound generators and the like, so is it real or fake?
I think a lot of us here judging by the posts can remember pre synth days, when the first strange hi tech thing to hit the market was the Fender Rhodes and were it not for the likes of Chick Corea and Herbie Hancock who introduced them respectfully into a new type of jazz, those babies might have gone the wayside. Or when the first DX7 hit the streets.
I once long ago read a definition of Musicianship: "The constant striving to improve ones abilities and the their creative process."
If we can accept that defintion then the rest of this debate in this thread is just rhetoric.
Terry

Hi Terry
Not sure if my 16 yr. old daughter's generation invented anything like you refer to - but I wish they would invent a vacuum cleaner and bedroom organizer of their own and use it!!!!!!!!!!!!

As far as that definition of "Musicianship" that you posted - "the constant striving to improve one's abilities and creative process" - seems like that is not so much musicianship but the amount of diligence and work one can muster up. I guess to me "musicianship" connotes a level of some sort - perhaps a level of professionalism - and certainly a level of ability and skill attainment are in there somewhere.

As far as 'real vs. fake' in sound generation. My guess is that manufactures label instrument banks with terms like brass and woodwinds because thats exactly what they are trying to emulate. Real vs. fake to me is only significant in live performance when one starts to look around for that 'sax' player coming out the speakers. Some folks - probably most - don't care about that at all. My audience certainly would have a different take on it. They'd call it fake and less desirable than more - and I can see why. Synth sounds on the other hand have an origin and history rooted in the keyboard - and why some folks might find that sound more real than fake is a logical perspective also.

In the final analysis - the successful use of a musical instrument is only contingent on the performer and listener - and that is often just a matter of degree - not black and white. You gotta go with what works.

regards
Mike

You could well be describing a workstation there Arbaz, in that you say "you can do everything on an arranger as in any workstation" (you are "likening a workstation to an arranger in other words).

Try listening to the Fantom video Demo, and you will find out that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to make a tune up. The sequencer on this thing is so easy to use...

I think it is when you start talking about creating songs "TOTALLY" from scratch, without any preset Ryhthms etc. But most, if not all workstations have this sort of facility now, and are much easier to get round, and create Proffessional Music.

Same as My Dad says everytime I turn on my KN6500, crank up a Rhythm, and start soloing over the top he says "You should get stuck into your Piano studies, you will never get anywhere with that "do-it-yourself" keyboard

The Only Backing my dad had when he was performing, was the applause of the Crowd!. And as someone told my DAD: "Organist & keyboard players are two a penny, but few can entertain With a Piano alone, like you".

Don't even start me on this "Djing" stuff, in which the "Performer" who dares to call himself Musically gifted........

J5

You won Jupiter5,

I am really not a pro by any means, yes I have read and seen the Fantom, have worked on both Triton and trinity have used Yamaha 9000 pro and also have used Motif and been using i30 for 2 years but I am no expert so I'll just leave the discussion to pros & prodigies, after all I am just an arranger (home keyboard) user. :-)

PA-80 user


[This message has been edited by Arbaz (edited 11-09-2001).]