and lets talk about it.....


Sorry no longer available

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-27-2006).]

In my mind, thats the top choice ...

What happened?...What will replace it?

Yea, what happened??

stereo phase cancellation?

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[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-08-2006).]

Sheesh Donny. That was a close one. Were you hitting the sauce or what?
Eddie

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[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-08-2006).]

Ironically, I was playing a job yesterday in a relatively small room that had about 30 people in it. The PAS volume was kept fairly low, but loud enough for everyone in the room to get in the groove. Most of the folks there were very elderly, some in their 90s, but a few were in their mid 70s and they immediately got up and began dancing.

What I could not see were individuals in three other adjacent rooms and around the corner in halls that were also enjoying the music. After the 90 minute performance, lots of people from the other rooms came in and complemented on how much they enjoyed the music. Yep, they could hear it almost at the same level as those in the room with me. This is something a conventional sound system cannot come close to matching.

IMO, there is nothing out there that remotely comes close to the PAS. If there is something better, something that weighs less, has better sound distribution, and provides clearer, crisper vocal and keyboard sounds, I and many other performers would sure like to know about it.

Scott, the phase cancellation you keep harping about is not a problem, and was addressed months ago. The same is true for those who felt the necessity for stereo--it's not an issue and never was, especially for those of us who perform in large venues for large audiences.

Donny, you gotta stop drinkin' that stuff! Switch to Kickapoo Joy Juice, or better yet Green Bananna Margarettas. Oh Yeah!

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Donny, last night at my Wildwood job, I decided to go back to stereo after a year and a half absence[mono]..What a welcomed difference..it works perfect in that room..I must have had a dozen people remark on the sound last night..I was able to sit back on breaks[of course I sat in the sweet spot], and listen to MP3's ..There is nothing better than stereo in a situation that covers the room right..

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[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-08-2006).]

A bit touchy today arent' we? Mine was an honest question, considering the fact that there aren't any other known issues regarding the PAS which would warrant selling it, are there?

Gar: Yes, it may have been 'addressed' (with new presets: 55, 57, 58), but unfortunately (to my ears) and other people's too, it did't entirely correct the problem. Here's what I noticed. When the Yamaha stereo "GRAND PIANO" is buried in a mix, the problem isn't noticeable, but in exposed piano playing, it still "remains a problem" to my ears! I suppose I could select a non-stereo GM/XG piano sample instead, but the timbre of the "GRAND PIANO" remains my essential choice for 'exposed' acoustic piano playing. One possible solution would be for Bose to add a built in effects processor on the PAS for adding effects to the incoming signal (ie: vocals), or in the case of 'stereo sampled' Yamaha voices, re-apply effects which got eliminated due to the classic 'stereo to mono' phase cancellation phenonomen. I'm first to agree that the Bose is a FANTASTIC sounding system, especially for vocals, but not for stereo sampled instrument voices which rely heavily on stereo efx, not optimal. Somewhere down the road, I too may move to the Bose, but not until this issue is more fully resolved, perhaps with Bose adding an onboard efx unit.

Scott

Scott , the problem isn't the sound systems...It's the Yamaha stereo samples..It seems like the other manufacturers do not share the same problem..I think it is time for Yamaha to fix their problem..

Hi Scott
I assume you have tried effects units plugged into a Bose PAS using both methods(1 click and 2).

I don't profess to know the phase cancellation problem. Just a thought.

Bernie

Fran, You might be right, but I don't think it's limited only to Yamaha samples. Stereo to mono 'phase cancellation' is a universal issue and is the primary REASON Motion Sound came out with it's KP100S & KP200S single unit stereo keyboard amps. - Scott

Scott, I know phase cancellation happens to all sounds, but I am sure Yamaha's way of producing the stereo samples is the problem...I think it may not be a true stereo sample as found on Roland products..I think it is designed with it's own effects with in the Yamaha keyboard...that when reduced to mono, loses the stereo image...I have played stereo sample sounds from Roland without the problem we see in Yamaha...I have found zero phase cancellation with the sample...We would be more incline to find it with a random effects, used to simulate a stereo sound...I would be curious to know if I am right...Yamaha is not using true stereo samples..only mimicking a stereo sound with it's effects..

I must agree with Fran--it's something that clearly seems to be unique with Yamaha's stereo sampling technique and in the way it is applied. And, it primarily seems to be associated with the piano sounds. Additionally, it was not present with some of the older keyboards, many of which had incredible piano sounds such as the PSR-5700, which I ran through the PAS just this past week.

As for the KP-100s, I have one for a backup just in case the PAS or Z-5500 systems fail on the job. I keep it hidden in the van all the time, and in an emergency it can get through the job. However, it is not my amp of choice for anything--it sounds awful at best--even when the EQs are tuned. And, while the sounds will improve somewhat by swapping the speakers out for higher quality speakers, the sound is still sub standard IMO. I also tried the KP-200s a few years ago, and while it was somewhat better, it wasn't even close to the sound quality of the Peavey system that I was getting rid of.

The bottom line--I'll stick with the Bose PAS until something better comes along.

Good thread!

Gary


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Travlin' Easy

I have to agree that not being able to sum the stereo signals to a mono signal without phase cancellation is a fault of the stereo output. For many years producers and engineers mixing rock music for both stereo hifi and mono AM radio signals always were careful to produce a stereo signal for records and FM radio that would still sound good when summed to mono for AM radio.

If there is a phase cancellation problem when summed to mono it is Yamaha's problem to solve not Bose for producing a mono sound system.

I recently heard a friends reggae band using acoustic drums , electric bass and electric guitar but vocals and acoustic guitar were running through the Bose Pas. I was sitting well off axis to the Bose Pas tower and it all sound great and very natural. He was running 2 Bose subs to keep up with the live rhythm section but it did that without a problem.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 01-29-2006).]

I play with a Korg Triton ES and when I go through a MONO amplification system, my samples sound like crap. Also, when I use my Roland VK8M Drawbar module with it's stereo Leslie Effect through a MONO amp IT sounds like utter crap. The leslie sounds more like a vibrato.

I don't think this problem is a Yamaha only problem. That's why I play through a stereo amplification system exclusively. I'm very curious to see what my equipment sounds like through a Bose PAS to see if it handles summed stereo any better.

Korg sounds have always been effects dependent[meaning they use the effects to sound good]...so in your example, both the Korg and the Roland "stereo" Leslie, are dependent of the "Stereo" effects...without the stereo image, naturally something would be missing...I think most would agree the Yamaha issue we are talking about is not the same..

I can assure you that Ketron SD1 sounds great through the Bose. Also the Casio WK3000. You can hear the "leslie" slow down and speed up.
DonM

hee heee ........

I totally agree with you. I'm sure this is a problem for many keyboards, not just Yamaha. The emphasis is to make them sound good in stereo. Mono output isn't a consideration because it is not a top marketing feature. Stereo only really works if the main sound speaker outputs are well spread. While stereo keyboard amps may sound good close up by the time the sound reaches the audience it pretty much sums to a mono sound.

then



Ok Donny, I realize you're a fickle guy , but somehow still not convinced this the entire reason. I'm curious what about the PAS itself (appearance, setup convenience, transportability, sound, or something else about it), might of had 'initially' driven you to the point of actually posting it for sale here. - Scott

Probably the same thing that prompts me to buy a new keyboard every year, even when I don't need one. It's all about keeping interested. You get it just right, then wonder if you can get it any better.
That and the drugs he takes.
DonM

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[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-08-2006).]

Donny,
I tried all the presets that were recommended by you, Gary, Eddie and others. I was not totally happy with any of them. Then I decided to just run into the Bose using zero, no preset, and e.q. from the SD1 or mixer, when I use one. I am now totally pleased with the system.
Also, by doing it this way, if I have a guest guitarist or fiddle player or whatever, I can use the first two inputs for them and whatever presets they need.
I continue to get great praise from customers and jealous surprise from a lot of musicians.
DonM

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[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-08-2006).]

Donny: Thanks for the valuable clarification. Whether the problem is inherent with Yamaha's stereo samples or otherwise, it looks that I'll be holding off on a Bose PAS system till Yamaha comes up with a solution, or until I purchase a keyboard more compatible with the Bose PAS mono system. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 01-31-2006).]

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[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-08-2006).]

To me, "PERSONAL AMPLIFICATION SYTEM", says it all ... use whatever you need to get the sound that fits YOU best ... While assistance from this board is invaluable, it may not provide the setting YOU need ... Keep trying 'till YOU get the sound that YOU want ...
I have recently found this with the "Poor Man's PAS" the Z-5500s ... I've adjust the kb eq and the eq on the Alesis mixer to get the 'right' sound, and I don't think I'm finished tinkering...
t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 01-31-2006).]