A bit touchy today arent' we? Mine was an honest question, considering the fact that there aren't any other known issues regarding the PAS which would warrant selling it, are there?

Gar: Yes, it may have been 'addressed' (with new presets: 55, 57, 58), but unfortunately (to my ears) and other people's too, it did't entirely correct the problem. Here's what I noticed. When the Yamaha stereo "GRAND PIANO" is buried in a mix, the problem isn't noticeable, but in exposed piano playing, it still "remains a problem" to my ears! I suppose I could select a non-stereo GM/XG piano sample instead, but the timbre of the "GRAND PIANO" remains my essential choice for 'exposed' acoustic piano playing. One possible solution would be for Bose to add a built in effects processor on the PAS for adding effects to the incoming signal (ie: vocals), or in the case of 'stereo sampled' Yamaha voices, re-apply effects which got eliminated due to the classic 'stereo to mono' phase cancellation phenonomen. I'm first to agree that the Bose is a FANTASTIC sounding system, especially for vocals, but not for stereo sampled instrument voices which rely heavily on stereo efx, not optimal. Somewhere down the road, I too may move to the Bose, but not until this issue is more fully resolved, perhaps with Bose adding an onboard efx unit.

Scott

Scott , the problem isn't the sound systems...It's the Yamaha stereo samples..It seems like the other manufacturers do not share the same problem..I think it is time for Yamaha to fix their problem..

Hi Scott
I assume you have tried effects units plugged into a Bose PAS using both methods(1 click and 2).

I don't profess to know the phase cancellation problem. Just a thought.

Bernie

Fran, You might be right, but I don't think it's limited only to Yamaha samples. Stereo to mono 'phase cancellation' is a universal issue and is the primary REASON Motion Sound came out with it's KP100S & KP200S single unit stereo keyboard amps. - Scott

Scott, I know phase cancellation happens to all sounds, but I am sure Yamaha's way of producing the stereo samples is the problem...I think it may not be a true stereo sample as found on Roland products..I think it is designed with it's own effects with in the Yamaha keyboard...that when reduced to mono, loses the stereo image...I have played stereo sample sounds from Roland without the problem we see in Yamaha...I have found zero phase cancellation with the sample...We would be more incline to find it with a random effects, used to simulate a stereo sound...I would be curious to know if I am right...Yamaha is not using true stereo samples..only mimicking a stereo sound with it's effects..

I must agree with Fran--it's something that clearly seems to be unique with Yamaha's stereo sampling technique and in the way it is applied. And, it primarily seems to be associated with the piano sounds. Additionally, it was not present with some of the older keyboards, many of which had incredible piano sounds such as the PSR-5700, which I ran through the PAS just this past week.

As for the KP-100s, I have one for a backup just in case the PAS or Z-5500 systems fail on the job. I keep it hidden in the van all the time, and in an emergency it can get through the job. However, it is not my amp of choice for anything--it sounds awful at best--even when the EQs are tuned. And, while the sounds will improve somewhat by swapping the speakers out for higher quality speakers, the sound is still sub standard IMO. I also tried the KP-200s a few years ago, and while it was somewhat better, it wasn't even close to the sound quality of the Peavey system that I was getting rid of.

The bottom line--I'll stick with the Bose PAS until something better comes along.

Good thread!

Gary


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Travlin' Easy

I have to agree that not being able to sum the stereo signals to a mono signal without phase cancellation is a fault of the stereo output. For many years producers and engineers mixing rock music for both stereo hifi and mono AM radio signals always were careful to produce a stereo signal for records and FM radio that would still sound good when summed to mono for AM radio.

If there is a phase cancellation problem when summed to mono it is Yamaha's problem to solve not Bose for producing a mono sound system.

I recently heard a friends reggae band using acoustic drums , electric bass and electric guitar but vocals and acoustic guitar were running through the Bose Pas. I was sitting well off axis to the Bose Pas tower and it all sound great and very natural. He was running 2 Bose subs to keep up with the live rhythm section but it did that without a problem.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 01-29-2006).]

I play with a Korg Triton ES and when I go through a MONO amplification system, my samples sound like crap. Also, when I use my Roland VK8M Drawbar module with it's stereo Leslie Effect through a MONO amp IT sounds like utter crap. The leslie sounds more like a vibrato.

I don't think this problem is a Yamaha only problem. That's why I play through a stereo amplification system exclusively. I'm very curious to see what my equipment sounds like through a Bose PAS to see if it handles summed stereo any better.

Korg sounds have always been effects dependent[meaning they use the effects to sound good]...so in your example, both the Korg and the Roland "stereo" Leslie, are dependent of the "Stereo" effects...without the stereo image, naturally something would be missing...I think most would agree the Yamaha issue we are talking about is not the same..

I can assure you that Ketron SD1 sounds great through the Bose. Also the Casio WK3000. You can hear the "leslie" slow down and speed up.
DonM