Do bands really like/want Arranger keyboard players...
'Oh and can you turn off the click drums; that too perfect bass; and most of that rhythm support cos it's getting in the way of what I'm playing...'
What do bands really want from a keyboard player? apart from not getting in their way...

In a concert at TV some time ago I could see Leonard Cohen play a Technics KN as accompagniment when the band was off the scene for a break. That was really cool.

I can't see that is a problem to use the keyboard itself, but if you're playing in a band where there is live drums and bass etc., what should you use the Autocomp for unless you're performing "playback" and fake live playing that we see too many does nowadays?
Maybe as metronome to keep the beat steady...
GJ

GJ makes a great point about timing. Many years ago, when I played lead guitar with a 5 piece country band, I was amazed at how bad their timing was. It was nothing short of abysmal and constantly changed, going up and down like a roller-coaster. Once in a while, some of us get together, however, the drummer and bass player have long sinced passed away.

They still cannot keep time, especially with the keyboard's perfect timing. After a few hours the reason behind this became quite clear--no one other than myself was listening to the tempo. They would just go off on a tangent, doing their own thing, and when they finished they were usually a half beat off.

However, good musicians, those that have trained themselves to keep time and count, do not have this problem. I have had the privilege and honor to know musicians that have performed with the best big bands. They were superb, their timimg was impecible, yet they had an incredible style that was injected by each player.

So, in answer to the orriginal question, I sincerely believe a good keyboard player can be an assett to any band. However, the band must also be an assett to the keyboard player.

Cheers,

Gary

Aah but then Gunnar if you turn off the autocomp (APC) it's no longer an Arranger Keyboard with the accent on Arranger...
And it's yet another thing again to use a sequenced or pre-recorded approach or to take it a step further and use a midi file - that really is faking it in terms of live playing - oops that'll set a few heckles rising!
Turn off the APC and correct me if I'm wrong but you've got an organ or a piano basically - is that want bands want?
Rog

I think for an arranger keyboard is too much instrument for a live band. I had played in the past with the real band, and that did not go too well. One day the drummer could not make it to the rehearasal, and they asked me to turn on the drums of my arranger - it was keeping perfect timing, with perfect levels, and I could adjust the volume not too loud. Another time the guitarist could not figure out his part, so I played it with the perfect guitar sound a few times, while hitting the right notes. After a few incidents like this, everyone hated me as their competition. We had performed a few times, but then went our separate ways.

It is good to be able to play by yourself - you do not depend on other musicians, and your backup band is always ready to accompany you. With the decent selection of styles you do not feel constrained by the lack of skill or technique or musical talent by the band members. It is the ultimate in convenience and instant gratification to play a single with an arranger.

However, all of those considerations aside, playing with the band is more fun. The variability which is inherent in having individual live musicians play various instrument parts in a band is something that is missing from the canned accompaniment in an arranger. I would suggest that the next improvement the arrangers can introduce is the controlled variability of style parts - allow the users to control the variation in the rhythm (for drums, bass, and other accompaniment tracks, either together or as a group which typically follows the rhythm). Long time ago Yamaha had something similar - groove and dynamics - controllable at real time. However, they later relegated it to style programming tools, which are not handily available in real time. Another suggestion for an improvement: allow an audio input which will detect the rhythm of the external drum track (e.g. a live drummer), and have the accompaniment slaved to it. This would help inegrate real drums into the arranger setup and introduce the variablity which is afforded by a live band into arranger setups. It would also offer a visual advantage - most of the time the audience will look at whether there is a drummer playing or not to decide if they are seeing a live or a pre-recorded act (I have to work hard to convince my audiences that I am actually playing live in front of them, rather than jockeying midi/MP3 files).

The other thing is when you play with other musicians, there is a sense of synergy, when your playing actually comes together. The interplay between different players' parts produces the result which can not be achieved by one guy playing a keyboard with one pair of hands. The convergence of sound from multiple parts is something which is the arranger musician will never have to deal with (nor enjoy).

I used to perform (and still do sometimes) with a trumpet player, or one or two other instrumental soloists - they have the skill to keep up with the arranger accompaniment tracks. It was not always perfect, but this was truly ejoyable live-play experience form me (and for the audiences, judging by their reception). Although this requires more practice work and coordination than just playing a single, to me this is a great way to produce a live sound with an arranger accompaniment.

Regards,
Alex

After I wrote the post above, I noticed some new posts which appeared in the time I typed it up. I second Gary's point, that whenever an any soloist, instrumental or vocal, is performing with the arranger, the greatest shortcoming of such a setup is that everyone must follow the arranger beat. Many musicians are not used to this, especially vocalists. It can be cured by practice, but this is one difficulty I have accompanying "guest vocalists" on stage - I usually will switch to piano only, no arranger or drums at all, to do this.

An arranger player does not have the means to control the tempo finely - with my hands on the keyboard, I would need a third hand (or a foot) to keep on tempo controls. Perhaps another way to control it would be to allow slaving the arranger tempo to, say, the left hand chord speed - another suggestion for improvement in new arrangers . This may require a slight change in the player's technique, but with the player listening to the singer, he could then then control the accompaniment.

Having played in 10 piece showbands, to 5 piece lounge bands to 3 piece trios to solo entertainer, I can attest that it's all a lot of fun, but each scenario presents it's own set of problems. Besides the normal "drug problems, girl problems and personality problems", bands in general perfectly demonstrate that it is not possible to bring the least skilled member up to the level of the others. The band will always sink to the lowest common denominator. Some kind of law of human nature at work there, but I do not have a name for it. I have just witnessed it countless times.

Re arranger keyboards, I have found that most musicians are very intimidated by these instruments and seem to feel it is not "real music". I also know that I played professionally for many years and that the only way I was ever able to make a dependable living out of performing music was completely alone. Again most (band) musicians I have met are extremely intimidated by someone that can with confort, grace and style, demand and maintain an audiences' attention.

Sorry if I am ot and I will be glad to remove post if anyone is offended.

Danny

[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 03-20-2005).]

Danny,
In my opinion you are exactly right.
DonM

I've been playing solo with an arranger and with sequences for a solid four years now. That means I've had four consecutive years with no excuses for bad music. No tempo problems, no overplaying by the guitarists, no egos to stroke, no problems with the band drinking or showing up late or getting bored or finally meeting the girl of their dreams who doesn't want them to play anymore right when you need them the most... how many reasons can YOU name why musicians can't or won't do their job?

I'll tell you the very best thing about having an arranger keyboard on stage with a band... it makes the band acutely aware that they can either be replaced or you can leave whenever you want and gig without them (and possibly in place of them). Were it not for that threat their overconfidence would mean they would hold your living at risk constantly, and they know it... they even flaunt it. And yeah, the fact that I've developed near-perfect timing also makes them aware that they'd better be on their toes if they don't want to look like rank amateurs. Musos may view arranger users as a threat - but is it because they think some robot will take their jobs, or is it because they secretly think their own flaws will become more apparent if they play next to you?

And BTW: I keep seeing these jabs at people who use sequences - some here and definitely more on other keyboard-related forums. Today's jab is from "Rog" who equates sequencing to "faking it". I guess he's joking but frankly I don't care if this is meant to be funny or not - it's really rubs me the wrong way to see keyboardists, of all people, putting down sequence users. I see no difference between using an arranger, where each measure is sequenced and you just switch between short sequences at will, or using an entire pre-sequenced song. Some of us work hard to develop our midi files, which is an artform in and of itself. Actually being able to entertain while using sequences is another unique talent... it takes balls to walk onto a big empty stage in front of a room full of people with nothing but a keyboard and some sequences, and something more to pull the gig off that way. Not one of my employers has ever implied that I am faking anything by using sequences or an arranger keyboard, so why are keyboard players doing it?

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 03-20-2005).]

"What do bands really want from a keyboard player?"

LOL someone that melds with the music thats there and enhances it. Someone that adds dynamics...and on and on. I think the potential role of a keyboard player in a full band has been demonstrated millions of times. Not really some big mystery.

"It is good to be able to play by yourself - you do not depend on other musicians"

Yeah you just depend on prefab styles, midi, and a device

"I would suggest that the next improvement the arrangers can introduce is the controlled variability of style parts "

Why not just sequence your own backing tracks from scratch, seems like that would solve the "in the can" issue...unless your the type that waits for Yamaha ( or others ) to make more "in the can" styles with some form of calculated diversity.

"they have the skill to keep up with the arranger accompaniment tracks."

Sorry...its not a matter of skill, any musician worth half his salt can run circles around auto accompaniment. If the musician is familiar with the song has a good ear for improv and on and on.

My experiences have not been very successful when trying to use my Tyros...in arranger mode...with my quartet.

No matter what my drummer plays, the double drums muddy up the low end. Even by playing an extremely cleaned out, scaled back part-it still produces a poor outcome.

Using a live bass player hasn't worked well either, IMO. Doubling the Tyros bass part makes no sense...mutig the tyros bass part leaves the bottom open for a live bass player, but they need to learn the actual style used for every song...Which takes a substantial amount of time and effort. Not very time effective and you still don't get the range of quality bass sounds as the Tyros provides.

One instrument that does interphase well has been my sax/clarinet/flute player. This has not been trouble free, however. At first, the sax guy tried to play over the Tyros backing, which was awful. The outcome was a muddied, cluttered trainwreck. The solution that did prove to be successful was having Tom lay out entirely...then only play in the solo spots. He's had some progress when using his flute over the Tyros styles...but only modestly so.

Therefore, at the end of the day, I am simply booking myself more and more as a solo artist. The clients are very satisfied, keeping the dance floor packed all night is not difficult at all. Plus, the financial aspects are favorable to all parties.

Let me make this clear...I love playing with my band. The other 3 members are all vets who have played well over 25 years each. Two are retired USAF band members. However, given the style of music the band plays...it makes no sense for me to try and combine both at this time. The two are best kept separate.

As I look into the future...I fully expect to see the band eventually come to an end. I am 44...my other members are 39,48 and 53. I'd guess that within 5 years or so, I may be playing only solos and some duos. The band has and is one of the more popular dance bands in the Dayton, OH area...but the audience is getting smaller each year due to aging issues. There may always be an audience for ballroom type bands...but as the natural attrition continues...there will be less and less demand for a band like mine.

My solo act is skewed at a younger audience...that said, I easily can cover the oldest members tastes in any venue as well as a solo performer. The use of an arranger, the Tyros, gives me unprecedented freedom and flexibility.

Given the precision, consistency amd quality of the arranger, I only wish I'd hopped onto the arranger train a long time ago.

Bill in Dayton



[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 03-20-2005).]

I'll throw in one more comment:

My most successful attempt at an "arranger-based band" was a trio I formed with two singers and myself as the band. That worked just fine (except for dealing with the singer's egos). One time we were hired to play at a wedding and the client insisted that we had to perform as a four-piece band. We explained how unnecessary this was and the added costs but it was no use - four piece or no gig. So we hired a drummer who brought a drumKat midi controller and played percussion parts like congas and latin instrument sounds via midi off of my keyboards. That worked fine too, and I've seen other midi acts now that featured percussionists rather than drummers along with other musos, and yes they used sequences and sounded quite good.

And when I went on a cruise to Mexico last year, I saw LOTS of bands based on arrangers... they were everywhere, on and off the boat.

Interesting points here.

Just a few summers ago I worked with an oldies R&R showband that had live drums, bass, two guitars and three vocalists. My arranger provided piano, organ, sax, trumpets and strings. But, never rhythm or bass. The accomp button didn't go on until I resumed my single committments in the fall.

Augmenting live players with auto accomp would have been an insult to them and an almost guaranteed train wreck timing-wise.

Eddie

Any musician (including vocalist), should be able to play with an arranger. Being able to keep in time is just one of the basic things of playing that you can not get away from whether playing an arranger or not.

I could remember when I use to play in a band in the 90s where we use a drum machine for percussions. There was a drummer, bass player keys and a guitar.

Playing an arranger keyboard in a band there are two ways you can do it. You can play just as if you were playing a keyboard with out arranger features or you can use some of the arranger features.

I have used my arranger for drums and percussions when there was know drummer in the band. Everyone played as if the drummer was there and there was not any major differences except you miss the energy that a live drummer brings to the table.


Weather I am playing with a band or by my self or a duo, I always try to create my styles as if it were a band. I don�t use all the tracks at one time and I have 2 drum tracks one for bass and snare and the other for percussions.

I strongly recommend style creation and modification so that the style can fit your playing. This way, you don�t have to wait for a keyboard manufacture to create styles that may not fit your playing style.

My humble opinion is that I am in the music business and I am willing to make the sacrifice to sound as good as I can on a gig. That includes among other things practicing, buying the right equipment and style creation to name a few. Yes it takes some time. But once you get the hang of it and you have a number of them, it is not that daunting.
I have about 20 core styles that I use on gigs and the songs rotate between those styles.


Just my opinion

Someone on this forum posted awhile ago that the way to play an arranger with a live drummer is to have the drummer not play the bass drum, just the rest of the kit.

Hiya Esh - you are very talented (just listened to your Autumn Leaves - wow, now that is improvisation)and yes I was only joking except that I sometimes see players earning money whilst merely playing the melody line to someone else's sequenced track - I've no idea what they do if they lose their place...chuckle.
I guess you're right - it takes nerve...
Rog

I have read all the above posts, just about all are valid. But -----

After playing with live muscians for many years I did a job with an electric drummer, my guitar and voice. I learned quickly that the drummer did not follow me, I HAD to follow it.

My emotions and feel had to be put on hold. If I became excited for a moment I had t back off. If I am playing an up-tempo, let's say at 175, toward the end of the song I should be a bit higher, it's a natural feel. I do not feel this is true for latins or some contempory music. When the excitement comes the tempo must vary to compliment the emotions -- it can go back to the original tempo, but it should change to reflect.
The change is very small and should be felt. The dancers should not be aware of a change in tempo.

This can not happen with the arranger keyboard unless you program it in a sequence. But then your emotions must be turned on as the arrangement dictates. your emotion are now not yours anylonger.

My little bit, John C.

i completely agree with pianodano...bands are like being married to 4 people (ace freeley KISS) and its true, i have played in rock bands, jazz trios duo with female lead vocal and midi files, solo with arrangers, solo piano bar, in fact i have just finished a 4 year band gig, and i gotta say the stress is way out there whther its reliability issues talent issues money issues trust issues (sound like a marriage HUH!) you can only reliably rely on yourself which is why arranger boards and or midi files give you the freedom to do as you want without the constraints of other egos and abilities...sorry will now get off my "soapbox".......


peace, out

Practice, practice, practice in bands. We did that so that the song was always performed the same.

Me personally having performed during the disco era and Beach Music years, I can say that it was critical that once the "machine" (as in band) fell into the pocket, the tempo better not vary. That style of musician had superb chops (Usually of the fusion type) and the dancers were fabulous in those days and, they would trip all over each other if the tempo varied. We were not, after all, playing dramatic music but dance music.

In my mind, I believe the most powerful and saleable combo now that could make use an arranger kd would be keyboardist using sequences while playing one part live, drums and female vocalist. The keyboardist and drummer should be able to sing also. To me styles should be used only for requests of songs that are not sequenced or, off the cuff type things. But that's just my opinon.

There are drummers that can absolutely and without trouble follow these instruments, but they (the drummer) need(s) a click track. You should be able to asign the metronone out of one of the unused outs, send it to a headphone amp and then to a earpiece for the click track referrence. Anyhoo thats how we used to do it with sequencers.

The beauty of live drums is that the raw power is restored to the mix. Imo yamaha styles are kind of over produced for live work. I am not saying the styles are not good, just that live drums add a little roughage (to coin a word ?) and helps spontaneity.

Danny


[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 03-20-2005).]

Actually, I play with a five piece lounge band and use my Tyros to cover whatever sounds are needed for our cover material and donot use the auto accp. However, when we play for weddings and parties, I use the auto accp. for the dinner music and any novelty music that is necessary. Actually, play solo for this type of music while the rest of the band takes it easy.

Also, play in a trio, duo and solo and use all of the auto features. I guess my only personal complaint is that many times with the 5 piece I do anywhere from 1 hr to 2 hrs. solo and donot get any extra pay.

Ed

Well that bites.

Danny

Hehe, I would think it's still an Arranger Keyboard, but not used as one.

About playback and fake, that's been hot topics here before, and I guess I'm one of those who got the temperature rising to dangerous levels for some of the members here at SZ.
When use sequensed tracks as "addon" when you actually play most of it live it's not what I would call fake, but believe me, I've seen "musicians" who take a trip among the audience (soundcheck?) while the keyboard plays as he.., and also seen two keyboards at the stand where the keyboardplayer used the one without the powercord plugged in during the whole evenening. Faked playing while everything was (midis and sequensed stuff) playback on the other. When asked to play along for singalong songs in weddings or whatever, the answer is: Sorry, but we can't do that!
Excuse me for saying this, but why not just bring a miniplayer or karaokemachine, sit down and be honest and cool when operate it?

Oh well, back on topic....

If a duo or a trio is defined as band, then I would say that a Arranger Keyboard work like a dream. But if the two other members play bass and drums.... hey, here we go again.....

GJ

Btw, on the Technics KN's (not KN5000 and up) there was a function called "dynamic accomp". It was a wonderful feature who was triggered by a extra punch on the keys when play, and the bass and drums made a nice, smooth and easy fillin or more a variation in that beat to make everything much more "live". The harder you played the keys, the more and sharp difference played in the style. Oh how I miss that brilliant function!
Any keyboard designer who listen?

[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 03-20-2005).]

Practice, practice, practice in bands. We did that so that the song was always performed the same.

Me personally having performed during the disco era and Beach Music years, I can say that it was critical that once the "machine" (as in band) fell into the pocket, the tempo better not vary. That style of musician had superb chops (Usually of the fusion type) and the dancers were fabulous in those days and, they would trip all over each other if the tempo varied. We were not, after all, playing dramatic music but dance music.

OK, I need a little slack here. I do not disagree with the above --- Disco, Beach Boys and Latins ___ do not vari the tempo--it's that kind of music -- agreed!

But since I am from a different time, and have played for many many years, the confinement of an electric beat, did take away from my music. I am talkinmg about feel here, not a run-a-way drummer --couldn't stand those.

Dancers got excited and we help create that excitement. Talking about feel -- Maybe a tempo of 175 ending at 179.
Cha Cha -- Disco -- Beach boys -- don't vari the beat. In the mood-Mack the Knife can not be played well FOR dancers without creating excitement = Volume&Tempo&feel

On an Up-Tempo we played on top of the beat. That means to accent the beat just before it hapened. It could not measure it, it was a feeling. On ballads we played a little behind, again creating a feel.
When I went to electric drums, that was lost.
Amen!
IMHO, John C.

I have tried to use my arranger with my 4-piece band (gt, sax, keys, singer) with moderate success. Since 90% of our music is midi-based, the rest of the band is pretty used to following the auto rhythm. I find that the biggest problem is matching the style to a song in a way that pleases all the band.

We have only a few songs I now use my arranger for. I have converted many arranger songs to midi to eliminate confusion.

To go back to the original question - any keyboard player playing with a live drummer and other musicians certainly doesn't need the arranger, but my PSR2000 has keyboard sounds that I love AND it is way lighter than my VR760. In that case, I just leave the accompinament off. But it sure is nice to have for those unexpected requests (the ones the rest of the band doesn't know.)

OK Chaps and Chapesses (ladies)
I think the answer here is that unless the other band members are extremely good then you're better off switching off the 'Arranger' side of your keyboard...
Now what is interesting is the increasing number of players who have indicated that they use the sequencing and midi facilities extensively when 'playing' live in front of an audience - now accepting the questionably marginal differences between a sequenced 4 beats which constitutes a style file versus pressing the start button then sitting back and letting the sequenced or midi file in the keyboard play the whole 3 - 4 minutes of the song - which feels more to you like a genuine approach, given that you're not doing something else like singing or playing a guitar?

First of all, using styles or midis does not necessarily free you to do nothing. I'm getting to be an exclusive midi performer, but I am still playing all out with every (well almost every) song. My concept of using midis is to give me the band members I don't have, so I need the drummer, percussion, bass player and sometimes strings or horns. I have a great guitarist who is able to play rhythm or lead as the midi requires. My sax player is useless anymore, but he's a good buddy (know what I mean. I'm doing 75% of the work and getting 25% of the gig.

Am I missing something here?
Do you think the general uninformed public thinks that using a sequence means that you DON'T play?
In a live band ... you only get to play YOUR part. With a sequence .... you still get to play YOUR part. At least - that's the approach I take. If I use a sequenced backing - I am the piano player. Remember that guy? Playing piano over a band or a sequence is the same technique .... only the band usually screws up the timing and some of the notes. Give me a perfect sequence over a mediocre band ANYday.

Interesting topic! Most know I have a love-hate relationship with arrangers, but the bottom line is, arrangers have kept me working in a very competitive and price snsitive environment.

I approach it like this: I work with a live jazz trio...no arranger. Then, I work with a core of excellent sidemen, including a guitarist, flugelhorn player, saxophone/flute player, percussionists, several singers, etc.on other jobs. Bass players and trap drummers are generally pretty rough with an arranger.

This works fine for me. I choose the appropriate sidemen according to the kind of job. I even add sidemen when it is not really required, depending on the type of job, budget and my level of boredom in doing a single. The bottom line is, for me, music is meant to be played wih other musicians. But, times are different...the only society big band in the area only works six or seven times a year.

Another advantage of using an arranger is I control the performance. If someone is difficult or unhappy...drunk or whatever, I can send thim home and complete the job.

Arrangers are great tools. It's just that, sometimes I miss the interaction...the great unspoken communication that permits alterating arrangements on the fly, playing off other players, etc.

Russ

A little off the topic, but when I run midi's the Tyros has a feature that allows looping or going back to a set point on the fly. Great for live play when the dance floor is full and they want to keep dancing. I was just wondering if anyone else uses this feature?
And btw I agree with Uncle Dave that when using midi's I play one or two parts along with them. Usually, piano, organ or horn parts with the right hand and bass with left. Playing bass live usually gives the midi a much better groove.

Ed

I did my last Saint Patty's party of the year last night, one that had just 50 people in a restaurant. The party was for an 85 year old lady that was born on Saint Patrick's Day, she was quite spry and had a ball. The performance time was just one hour, but I put on a 52 minute dinner midi for just a bit of soft, background music while they were enjoying dinner.

When dinner was over, the party began with the traditional lighting of the candles on the cake, happy birthday, and right into some grand old Irish tunes that were requested by her daughter. No problem. Then it was the usual routine with lots of upbeat, big band, Sinatra, etc tunes, ended the night with Show Me The Way To Go Home, everyone applauded, and I ended up with a hefty tip on top of the normal fee.

The irony of this was that I was off in a corner, isolated from the restaurant's bar, which was around the corner. As I was leaving, the bartender said "Are you part of the band that was playing in the dining room tonight?" When I replied "I am the entier band." His response, was "What are you talking about. Where is the drummer, sax, guitar and trumpet player? And, who was singing the songs? There were times when I know I heard more than one person singing."

It took a few minutes to explain that it was all coming from me, but after talking with him for just 2 minutes, he said "While you were performing, I couldn't sell a drink in the bay--everyone was at the dining room door watching you perform for the entire hour." He then asked if I was interested in a job performing at the bar a couple nights a week. He said the owner will call me in the next few weeks, and took a couple cards.

The bottom line is, if there were four of us performing, the money would be split 4 ways and no one would have made much more than gas money. Unfortunately, this business pays the same now as it did 35 years ago. The arranger keyboard has put the word profit back on my tax return, and for this I am eternally grateful. And, for those that consider playing and singing with midi files cheating, well, maybe it's time to re-evaluate your stance. As I've said many times before--this is the entertainment business, and when you stop entertaining your audiences, you're out of business.

Cheers,

Gary

You're certainly right Gary - delivery to your target audience is all - but if you can do it live rather than pre-recorded just think how much better you feel at the end of the evening...
I'd rather do that than think I got a repeat booking cos I knew how to play someone else's midis or sequenced files - it's a matter of personal pride I guess.
Anyway Gary your work is marvellous so you've got no problems...
Best wishes - Rog

Rog
I know you are a staunch oponant of midifiles,and agree with you to a point.The wife and I have just returned from a cruise where they had a singer,drummer,and a cute girl sitting behind a Tyros smiling at the audience shuffling disks.I could tell she was not playing at all.I couldn't stand the sham. On the other hand,I use sequences often as a way to get more bang for the buck. I am still playing as hard as ever,but with more parts.

Bernie

So Rog, what's worse, adding some keyboard work to a midi file or playing a three-finger chord that sounds like a full orchestra. I love my arranger; it gives me a lot of versatility, but a good midi file is more like the original song. Granted, when playing solo, a midi file can really sound like overkill. But, a midi file can always be edited so that only the parts you want are played.

AMEN, UD! I have successfully made the transition, and use my PSR3000 with my "live" 5 piece band, using midi files.

Uncle Dave is right. I AM still playing the piano parts, and have found a drummer who, because of his vocal strength, can spice up the existing drum track, and plays along live with the track. (No different than having two drummers ala Doobie Brothers). Very rare to find a drummer who puts the overall sound of the band before any personal ego. I also remove any bass, and all solos (I use a live sax player!), leaving rhythmic guitars and orchestra-type parts in for full effect. A lot of work manipulating the midis, but the end result is well worth the effort, believe me!

The results:

1) The perfect (in my opinion) blend of midi and live performace, where things like cymbals and hi-hats are heard as a live element, and compliment to the drum tracks. We have four vocalists who can sing lead at any given time, and blend well harmonically.

2) In only three months of actually performing together, we have already secured twenty weddings this year alone, as well as many club and restaurant dates.

3) Start-up time is minimal when using midi files, and easier to learn material.


Now, don't get me wrong. We are also capable of playing songs 100% live when we need to, (i.e. special requests, etc.). But, that's the beauty of it all! It's never the same two nights in a row, and we still need to be sharp, and musically sound!


Just my opinion.....

Angelo


[This message has been edited by cam8neel (edited 03-22-2005).]

Hiya Cass
The question you ask is...
So Rog, what's worse, adding some keyboard work to a midi file or playing a three-finger chord that sounds like a full orchestra. I love my arranger; it gives me a lot of versatility, but a good midi file is more like the original song.
My reply is
What is better than either of your proposals is using a special rhythm/style file, playing live, that sounds exactly like the original song, and you're playing it - aah but where do you get them from I hear folk say....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cam8neel:
[B] Just my opinion.....

Angelo


.... and your opinion counts, Ang ... ... can't wait to hear the group ....
t.

Dear Angelo;

My question to you is where does one find good quality midi files? I have heard numerous ones that sound like a cheap $100 keyboard from Walmart. While there are others which are very good, but cost money ( on average one midi file costs as much as a whole Cd). Do you find yourself taking the medicore midi files, and spending time on tweaking them? How do they sound on your psr-3000? Realistic?


Thanks;
BN

BN,

There are some good midi file sites out there, and the majority of the midi's on those particular sites can be used as is, or with minimal tweaking. They tend to run anywhere between $6-$9 each, depending on the work. In my opinion, some of these midi's are well worth it, because it must be very time consuming to conjure them up from scratch, especially the ones that sound "just like the record".

The ones you get on the net for free are mainly the ones you end up spending hours on tweaking, changing instrumentation, volume levels, etc. To be honest with you, those, you sweat for!

(BTW, midi files sound awesome on the PSR3000! Why do you think I use an arranger keyboard to play them? I get the best of both worlds this way!)


Angelo

Hi Roger,

Depends on the needs of the specific band and on a given night (gig). The advantage of the arranger is flexibility. As an arranger player, you can act as one of the band's keyboard rhythm section players (keyboard comping) with live drummer & bass player = rhythm section core (bass, drums piano), add keyboard line (and or other instrument emulation) solos, or use the arranger's auto accomp (as needed) to fill in for missing live rhythm section players: bass, drums, horn sec, etc, or missing soloists (sax, vibes) etc.

As much I appreciate the arranger keyboard for it's one man performance convenience, ability to fill in parts for missing band members, and as a valuable tool for solo practice & playing improvement (especially for tightening up one's musical playing/timing (and to be come versed in playing a wide variety of styles) their is no substitute to the rewards/musical growth gained from playing with competant musicians.

ONE IMPORTANT thing I learned long ago ( and which I'll never forget) from elder experienced pro players & teachers) is to always strive to play with musicians who play BETTER than you. If you only play with musicians equal/less skilled than youself, you won't improve, but playing with better players, you'll be challenged to keep up with them, and gain a lot of music insight & knowledge along the way as well. Unfortunately the catch-22 of this is that higher skilled/experienced musicians may not be interested in playing with you. Thankfully, at least in my community, there remains older experienced musicians interested in passing their torch of wisdom to younger up and coming performers who show promise. I'm ever thankful to the those seasoned pro musicians who took the time & interest to take me under their wing when I first started out, inviting me sit in on their gigs, as well as having me appear as a guest performer. As musicians, we are truly a special community of artists willing to help one another out. This is especially apparent with many of the SZ members here as well. The SZ arranger forum is truly a special place to me.

Scott

Thank you for saying what you said i am one who does about 200 dates a year or more and i use midi files and i have never sounded better i play with them and my following love it so you are right on . and i am a real Musican and not a faker thanks Again i was starting to get offended untill i read your post well said.

I'd be more interested in how many arranger players can actually play along with a drummer, a GOOD drummer. You guys make all drummers seem incompetent.

Someone that's never played with a drummer and is addicted to playing along onboard styles had better pass at the opportunity unless he's willing to face the music...so to speak. Ha! Ha!

Sure, an onboard style may seem to have perfect timing but it's that "perfect" timing that makes it automated. They don't call it automatic accompaniment for nothing.

If it's indeed "perfect timing", why do bands, be it Rock bands, symphonic orchestras, and the likes insist on having a human drummer? After all, they'll have one less to split the monies. Because it can't do what a human drummer can. Simple as that. A human -even an inhumane - drummer can improvise on the fly, add embellishments, give a rousing solo, change tempo at the snap of a finger. An arranger style is statically predefined.

Oh, and a drummer can play bare-chested, flex his biceps, twirl his drumsticks (the non-edible kind unless you're a woodworm or termite) and, most importantly, get chicks. Why else do you think Chas picked up drumming?

JMHO

Taike

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Bo pen nyang



[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 01-02-2011).]

Hi,
first up, I've never " Performed ", with a band, midifiles or an arranger.
As an outsider looking in, what difference does it really make what the backing is, as long as you're doing your part.

I remember when midifiles first came out
(late 80's , I think), I was paying $30 per midifile. I had very few. haahaa
I was happy when I bought my first keyboard, I had backing.
Eventually midifiles, as the hobbyist market grew, got way cheaper. A lot of them wouldn't have been suited for the pro market, but for me as a hobbyist, they were ok, I was able to play along on my piano. (Personally, I found playing along with piano, more difficult than playing the arranger.)

One disadvantage I would imagine in using a midifile, versus keyboard , is that the performance is set, unless you have some sort of function, to be able to extend the performance if required.
On my Korg , I sort of found a way around it by cutting a midifile into sections and triggering them in style play mode.

By the sounds of things, each of the methods, live band backing, midifiles, arranger playing , has it's pro's & cons.
Main thing is, you're doing what works for you, and you're out there performing. Congratulations.

best wishes
Rikki



[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 01-03-2011).]

Amen Rikki
That is how many of us see it.
Bernie