I just spent the better part of three hours down in the studio trying to record a song and have nothing to show for it. I can't believe how good this thing sounds, YET how many screens and values I have to edit to get the sound I want. I can't even adjust the tempo with the alpha dial unless I go into another page. Either I have to find a way to handle this monster, or I'm gonna make someone else a very happy G70 owner. I'm starting to understand that maybe I should save some of my favorites, but that goes against my grain. SIMPLICITY, is that too much to ask.

$2250 and it's yours.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 09-10-2007).]

You want simplicity, buy a piano.

Use anything else, and you're going to have to crack the manual, AND learn to work within it's OS and capabilities. And I mean ANYTHING else...

Cass,

After my 3K woes today, I'm half tempted to check out the G70 and learn its system, use the harmonizer, play 76 keys and perhaps have dependability.

I sold my E-600 for $525 and have the 3K for sale. I don't believe I could get close to $2250 but I'll keep you posted.

zuki

As if... I'm no stranger to the manuals BUT learning to work within the OS and capabilities is something of a chore. Way too much BS just to make some sounds. Maybe I will get a... XK-1 and pickup something else for the few rhythms I need. Screw the harmonizer and Cover features. I'm beginning to feel we've all fallen into the technology trap. Urgh!!!

------------------
www.cassponline.com/

Zuki,

Too bad you and all the 3k guys here have used them so much. I'm afraid to make a trade or purchase because they've been played so hard (extensively is maybe a better word). And to think I might have been interested in a trade+$. No offense friend, but I play a lot of A's too.

I got an idea... somebody come on over and show me how to play this thing correctly. Me trying to learn out of this manual is like trying to translate Latin using a Chinese dictionary.

Cass,

I wasn't suggesting a trade of my 3K - I wouldn't impose that on you I'll just sell the thing and have some cash to buy something - who knows what yet.

zuki

zuki the G70 would be a perfect fit for you for sure!

Why would you go to a studio when you're not prepared and have not learned how to use the instrument? You need to read the manuals, experiment with voice settings, read hints on this and other forums & websites, see video demos at Roland, etc. With instruments this complicated and feature filled, this is the age of the owners manual.

Thank you for that most enlightening observation

The studio is a converted bedroom in the basement.

I have learned how to play the instrument; I'm just frustrated that I still have to do all this mumbo-jumbo editing crap to use a style the way I want to.

I've read the damn manuals four times already! I have them at my chair right now! and I DO READ HINTS all over this frickin' internet. This keyboard has driven me mad

You obviously know nothing about me, my abilities or preparation. AND your comments are driving me crazy

Sorry to dump on you like that. It's been a frustrating evening. Peace

With technology as advanced as it is today, I think built-in instrument tutorials at specific functions could tell you what you need to know for the particular function you are trying to use. I believe that that is the way it should be and can be. You want to record a new sequence, hold down a help button and then touch the sequencer button. A nice tutorial pops up onto the screen to walk you through the various instructions for recording a sequence or whatever. The direct access that Yamaha provides does make it easy to adjust settings and parameters within the keyboards OS. However, the built-in tutorial would be a nice upgrade for all keyboard owners.

Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts

Cassp,

How about a SD-1 in trade?

Tom

Thanks, but no thanks Tom.

And Dennis, are you running for President? You've got my vote!

Why Yes... Yes I am... I will be accepting all contributions at my email address.

TWONUTS@TheHouseOfAlmonds.Com

And Remember Boys and Girls...
If you vote for me you may be NUTS TOO!!!

Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts




[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 09-10-2007).]

The approach to user interface is completely up to the manufacturer and is completely different from keyboard to keyboard. Some provide a very intuitive interface and some don't. Some products require many "manual" hours and button presses to change a parameter while others are simply intuitive and require little research.

Not that it is all that simple. Some interfaces work for some but not for others and is a matter of personal taste. ( but there are always some interfaces that suck for everyone lol ).

Dennis, great idea on the built in tutorials. I found the G70 to be more challenging to learn than the any Yamaha arranger I've owned. Out of the box the Yamaha doesn't have as steep learning curve. Manuals aren't always the greatest to work with or from. A set of CDs like the Simon Smith series for the PSR would be helpful for the boards with steep learning curves. Maybe some of our more knowledgeable members could pool their talents and release a set of CDs. Could be a great way to earn extra income.

Where's that Fran guy? He got me into this. Is he still on vacation? I should should go over there and... and... and..

Well anyway, it's all his fault.
>
>
>
>
>


just pulling your leg, Fran. Welcome back

I think it is what OS[manufacturer ] you are use to...

I have no problem understanding the G70, but I am use to Roland arrangers..

I find Korg and Yamaha less friendly and less efficient to me...why?... because I am not a Korg or Yamaha user..I've owned them, I just don't care for the OS..they use..
Likewise with Ketron..I didn't like the OS with X1..and it is the same today..

Roland has more versatility and maybe that is why some folks feel it is very steep learning curve..I can understand someone new to Roland getting frustrated..Patience is a virtue..

too bad you are in the US
dennis

PS thought id should edit this to point out i was actually referring to the original thread post!!

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 09-10-2007).]

lol, stephen, you should try the Ketron Op systems...sheesh!!!

Dennis, thanks for the implied offer for help. Yes, I understand that the G70 is a very European keyboard and there is a lot of help across the pond.

Fran, this is all your fault . I like your comment about being familiar with the OS thru previous arrangers. That certainly is a BIG plus.

For Diki, Tarkington and others - any thought that I would just go into this arranger stuff lightly shows a lack of understanding on your part. I could play this thing all night without a hitch or complaint, but then I'd be settling for what is THERE. I'm upset over what isn't there or at least easily seen or found. As Fran points out, a lot of this stuff is learned over years of working within the Roland OS concept. So maybe he, Diki, Miden and others have a better understanding of the in's and out's of this monster than someone like me who hasn't had a Roland arranger. I incorrectly assumed that my experience with Roland synths would make this chore easier - not the case. I believe that anyone without previous experience with this Roland arranger OS would be asking the same questions I have just because the info is not readily out there IN THE MANUAL. Yes, I'll give you the fact that maybe I need to start using and saving UPGs; that seems key to saving what I DO want, but there are questions that don't apply to user settings, like global settings that aren't there and adjustments to parameters that should be there, but don't seem to be.

The G70 is one helluva keyboard; it has features that I will never need or use and that's OK. But what frustrates me are the features I assume are there, but I can't find. I give you G70 gurus credit for being able to rope in this mustang and only ask that you try to understand that there are others out there who have simple questions that require complicated answers, and you probably have the answers without even realizing it because you've already been thru the learning curve. So help us out instead of telling us to READ THE MANUAL and ASK QUESTIONS on other forums. What you know is NOT in the manual. What I want to know is NOT in the manual, I think.

After sleeping on my rant, I've decided to start posting questions about the G70 here and at Roland-arranger.com. I'm hoping I can find out (learn) what I need to know thru that technique.

So I leave those of you who know anything about the G70 with this question (#1): Can I adjust and save "vibrato-chorus" parameters in the drawbar setting? I am not satisfied with the chorus settings, especially C-3.

Cass, try an insert effect #83, for your Leslie/vibrato/chorus settings..You should be able to adjust for your needs..

Thanks Fran. I knew you would have an answer. Now if you'd just explain what that means and what will happen.

Hey, cassp.... I am surprised at how long it has taken you to get around to asking the actual questions that are bothering you. I also find it astonishing that, coming from a synth background, you STILL haven't even bothered to learn how to save programs (UPGs), probably the most fundamental thing to learn on ANY programmable keyboard. Get an XK-1? You'll STILL have to learn how to save your presets (like if you want to change the Leslie character, hint hint...)

Ranting only gets you so far, and is easily avoided by posting your questions at roland-arranger.com BEFORE the frustration sets in..!

But seeing as how this is posted here, now, I'll deal with it here... Unfortunately, Fran's answer is only partially true. MFX#83 can only be inserted on regular Tones, NOT the HB (drawbar) section of the G70 (which is what I believe you were really asking about). So there is no way to edit the Vib/Cho of the HB section. You CAN select V1-3 and C1-3 and store them to User Presets, but you can't change the actual CHARACTER of the HB Chorus, nor it's depth (which is all the Vib/Cho Vintage parameter in the MFX seems to do, IMO). The HB section appears to be '60's' only. A REAL VK Organ offers you access to these parameters (but you would have to learn to save them, in any case!).

There are only a few regular organ Tones that don't already have some Vib/Cho sampled into them (which ruins them, as far as I am concerned) to use with the MFX rotary effects (and MFX#57, the VK rotary doesn't have the Vib/Cho section), so, other than those few tones, you are going to have to get used to the Vib/Cho sound in the HB section, I'm afraid... (I checked the sys-ex codes, and these don't access those parameters, either).

If you are using your G70 in a recorded project, BTW, I would suggest laying the organ down on a separate pass to other Parts, and turning all reverb OFF. The HB's reverb send is pre-Leslie , so if you want an ambient Leslie sound (don't we all!), put the reverb on to the organ part with a plug in (or track through an external reverb).

But, in future, try to post your problems BEFORE you get to the point of wanting to sell your arranger... OK? Trust me, you will find no other arranger any easier to use, on the whole. Even far less expensive arrangers (and less capable and live-sounding) will be no less complicated, and if you aren't going to be happy with anything less than being able able to tweak whatever parameter comes to mind, no less complicated arranger will make you happy either.

You've got a quandary, don't you? You want microscopic editing detail, but you want it simple too...

Best of luck with THAT one...

Thanks for taking these questions under your wing. As on my other post, your answers are right-on.

Ranting? Who's ranting? I was ranting? No, not me. You must have me confused with someone else.

Your insight into the drawbar section is an eye-opener. So, even though the drawbars themselves are the same as the VK engine, the effects, ie. leslie and vib-chorus are not quite the same. Aha, I see. I knew that

And gee, dad ,er, I mean Diki, I promise to practice saving those UPGs. Please let me have some ice cream tonight?

Hey, Diki - thanks a lot!Here's to YOU, kid.

Cheers, cassp.

And there I was, thinking I might pick up a nice cherry G70 for peanuts as a backup, and now I've gone and ruined it!

Serves me right!

Oh, never say never.


...so they say

Cass, if the edit parameters are important to you.

Select the VK organ[draw bar],
and turn off the offending parameter[vibrato]..
or all of the effects including Leslie simulator..

Now route the organ to separate outs...
from there using patch cords ..route that signal back into the audio ins of the G70..

Go into effects /audio in effects/ and select #57 ..now you can adjust and use any para mater you want with the VK organ..

Fran, Fran, Fran.... What are we going to do with you? (just kidding!)

The HB section CANNOT be routed through the Direct Outs (or panned off to one side if you are going mono). Perhaps you could TRY some of these 'answers' you are giving before you post them..? I know you mean well, and it's great that you take the time to post, but perhaps take just a LITTLE more time and find out if you are right, first...

Sorry, no emoticons (or ice cream) for you tonight, young man! Now, back to the manual...

OK Diki, now for G70 ..102[as in class]..
Naturally Roland screwed up when they made this VK without separate outs..

How I got around it[and no , I don't think it is worth the hassle for a vibrato selection..but possible].. I come out of the main out..I used a mono 4-1 Rolls mixer..routed it into the audio in..I had to only use the vibrato control of #83 insert...not the Leslie[because of some looping]..I used the VK effects for everything but the vibrato..From the 4-1 Rolls..I continued to the amp..

Would I ever use this?...NO..Will it work ?..YES

Cass , also there are many great organs you can also use with the insert effect..and layer them with the VK..minus the vibrato..This may give you pleasing organs too..

No one said the G70 wasn't flawed..Matter of fact , when I decided to buy a G70 [Version3]..I was under the impression we could use the VK organ in our styles..not to be...same with Guitar mode!!
I still haven't given up on trying to figure away to do this...but like most things missing..shortcuts aren't worth the trouble..Recess time....

Actually..it is a shame Roland didn't try some of the features before they released the G70..I don't think it would have been difficult to incorporate the VK effect settings..They had the settings on the VR760..and that was a multi use keyboard also..

Now this is the kind of stuff we should be talking about. Everyone benefits from it...
Between Fran & Diki they could put out great G70 info that would be so beneficial to G70 owners who are having difficulties getting started or cant seem to find in the manual etc etc ...


Fran great post.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-11-2007).]

Great idea!!!!

There are a lot of Roland savvy folks at Roland-arranger site too, and they are very helpful...But we could also unite here to help others with technical stuff..same with you Yamaha , Korg, Gem, and Ketron folks..

Maybe we would have a little more harmony and get to understand the other brands we are not familiar with...just a thought...

I think keyboards have gotten away from the basic premise,which is, an instrument to make music with,NOT spending half your time wrangling with a so-called "intuitive" GUI.

I've got an idea for the keyboard of the not so distant future,but I can't say anything about it now.Hopefully if Yamaha is looking around here,they would be willing to take me on and let me submit a proposal for it.I honestly believe that there IS a market for what I have in mind and if my idea ever got to the market stage,Yamaha would be back-ordered from here to doomsday.

Because for all of the vaunted technology out there right now,a lot of keyboards are either half done or way overbaked.My idea would fit into the "medium rare" category quite nicely.

Exactly....even though Im guilty as anyone else of being involved with some of the wackiness.....more questions & answers here on the SZ GA forum will help many people & they wont have to drift off to other proprietary KB discussion sites.
Sharpen your Noggin and let the learning begin...ask away.

Well, in fairness, that's EXACTLY what Roland-arranger already is... It's in English, although it has an international readership (got to love their school systems over there!), but contains the gathered wisdom and experience of three years of G70 owners (and now E-series, too). It is linked to the archive of the original G70 Owner's Club site, so looking up old back posts is easily searchable (something I encourage ANYONE with a Roland question to do before posting a question).

You got Roland questions? They already got the answer (most of the time!)... Why try to reinvent the wheel? You got the time, post at roland-arranger, and you'll usually get a prompt answer that is usually correct
----------------------------------------------------------

BTW, Fran... Are you SURE you aren't making that workaround up? You say you come out of the Main outs with the HB section, route it back into the IFX inputs (Audio In). Correct? But that has no separate outputs... It gets mixed back into the Main Outputs, which then goes off to the Rolls, back into the Audio Inputs, and voila! You have a feedback loop.

Trust me on this one... there is NO WAY to get the HB section separate from the Arranger without giving up ALL the effects on a Style (you can route every style, Keyboard and Song part to the Direct Outs, but you lose ALL effects doing so).

And if you are recording the HB section solo, without the arranger, you STILL can't edit the Vib/Cho. You CAN route some of the Tone organ patches this way, but firstly, there are very few without some chorus sampled in, and as any Hammond player knows, sampled vib/cho is NOTHING like a scanner vib/cho, which affect all sounding voices the same, NOT being different for each note (as sampled effects are).

But the worst thing about these is that they are velocity sensitive, a killer of Hammond authenticity...

Sorry, cassp, but despite Fran's advice, there is nothing that can do what YOU want to do in the G70.

But editing the Vib/Cho is the LEAST of your worries... As I already said, the reverb send is Pre-Leslie (no workaround for that in a mix), and the distortion is post-fader, so it is next to impossible to get it to 'growl' within a mix. There's a SLIGHT workaround for that by cranking the distortion, and turning the Balance know all the way to Accomp, but it virtually mutes all your other keyboard Parts, and acts funny if you move the HB Volume fader. But if you want that full Deep Purple snarl, within a mix (as in, when the arranger is working) it is difficult to achieve.

The G70's Hammond section is ANYTHING but perfect (and I have always said so)... But the problems are hardware related, so we will just have to see if Roland do a complete redesign for the next G-series, or just develop the hardware they already have. But even so, it is STILL a lot better than most arranger's B3's. Just not quite as good as a dedicated Hammond clone like the XK-1/3, yet.

Diki , I tried it with the reverse design..I scratched the separate outs for the VK and used the mains..{read my previous post again].. It will loop , but with just the vibrato parameter..no big deal..If you are concerned with the drums and bass...route them out the direct outs..

As I said it isn't practical , but it works..And no..I didn't make it up..

So much for working in harmony..

Very good posts everyone. I am glad my ranting has gotten some of you to finally address the real playing issues. As long as I know what I can't do, i can figure out what I can do.

I was offline tonight because of band practice - yes we do practice, occasionally. We actually spun out 5 songs for an upcoming gig; pretty good for us old farts. And three of them use arranger settings - wow!

BTW, does anyone have a SMF for Clapton's 'She's Waiting'? can't find it.

But Fran, all you are doing with this is ADDING a small amount of VK chorus (and Leslie, if that is ON on the IFX) to the dry sound... You are NOT sending it through the scanner chorus 100%, (like it has to to be Hammond chorus).

I'm not trying to sow disharmony (dissonance?) here, simply to address cassp's question, which what you post does NOT... And, if not set up VERY carefully, to avoid getting a runaway feedback loop, potentially damaging (at least to whatever speakers are attached, if not to the internal circuitry of the G70)...

Cassp, I would NOT recommend you try Fran's suggestions without being a LOT more knowledgeable about what you are doing. This sets up a potential feedback loop if you are not VERY careful with the gain...