I don't know about the dance/music connection. I guess it makes sense. As a pianist I have found the playing hand percussion instruments has been a helpful diversion for exploring rhythmic ideas. However, good hard work is many times the solution. Count it out, break it up into small pieces, start slow, and build up speed. Not always fun but usually effective.

I don't agree that if you don't have rhythm you're lost, since it can't be taught. I know an acoustic guitar player that just couldn't get a jazz waltz feel. I wasn't able to effectively instruct her on what to do. Fortunately, the drummer in the band was also a talented school band director and had just the trick for teaching a jazz waltz feel. Just say the following phrase over and over again "who PARKED the car"

For 5/4 just add baby "who PARKED the car, ba-by"

Try it, it works.

Scott's swing waltz + duple is technically correct. However, it's the little tricks that make the difference.

WHOA, there son ... my wife and I can cut a pretty mean rug - Lindy (swing), cha-cha, and especially merengue !!! ... but then, as much as I LOVE jazz, I'm not a 'jazz musician' ...

I do think that being a vocalist (to a limited degree) helps me considerably with my playing, as I think I play a tune as I would sing it ...

t.

Hmmmmm, for me "Who parked the car, baby" comes out 4/4.

Funny thing happened on a gig last week. Two African-American women were clapping to the music, hitting the 2 and 4, plus some good body movement going on. Between them sat an elderly white gal, doing her darnest to clap along, barely hitting the 1 and 3. Made me almost laugh out loud 'cause it was so much like Steve Martin in "The Jerk"

Glenn

Hi Robert: Yours is a perfectly fitting WORD PHRASE to fit that specific 5/4 groove! I'm definitely passing this one on to my music students. Thanks. - Scott

I remember back in college (studying music theory) having learned similar word phrase devices to represent rhythmic values, of which were helpful to master rhytmic grooves. The ones that immediately come to mind are:

Mississsippi: 16th notes
Tripoli: Triplet notes

Strangely enough, I've forgotten the many other word/phrases I had learned to associate with other note values & (often complicated) rhythmic note combinations. Hopefully Robert, or someone here, might be able to help refresh my memory with this? Thanks.

Scott

If you look closely at Robert's phrase again, you'll notice that the word parked is capitalized (accented). "Who PARKED the car" on: 1-2-3, and "Ba-by" representing beats 4 & 5 respectively. This rhythm can be heard played by Dave Brubeck on piano. - Scott

Tony,
I think your accordion background contributes to a lot of your (and other players too) rhythm and timimg capabilities.

If you take a minute to think of whats going on in each measure of a song that you play on the accordion, you can't help but to increase your rhythm and timing functions.

Left + right hands are playing 2 different things, but there's no sound, no music without physically pushing/pulling the bellows back and forth.
So you simultaneously maintain that control (in timing/rhythm) the positioning of the bellows, otherwise the volume level is too loud or too soft, OR, no sound at all because you just ran the bellows shut.

After you have developed that coordination (timing/rhythm) you work on accenting your music. Again, 2 different parts being played at the same time with only 1 source of accent control, the bellows.
Your rhythm develops to a higher level thru this training because you develop techniques to get your fingers off the treble keys for a split moment so you can accent a bass passage and vice versa.
The hand learns to become quicker than the ear (of the listener)

After playing a few years, this becomes automatic, mechanical without thinking about it.

Hence, rhythm and timing thru training.

You guys should get money for this kind of info you provide here for free.

After reading the thread yesterday morning, I thought about it and decided I have to correct that problem. Last night I realised that most of the time, on a particular distortion guitar solo I like to play, I am playing a little faster than I should, so in every 1-2 meters I have to slightly "correct" myself, and it showed in the recording.

And then Diki hit the nail in the head and I know one of the main reasons why, at least one that I can control. My distortion guitar patch dominates everything.

The "dancing with head and feet and hands" thing I do for years now, (never heard it before, just came out naturally) and it was nice to confirm that it actually helps.
Thank you all, this is what this forum is about.
Theodore

MrEd ... Thanks for taking me back to basics ... too often I 'forget' about the strong musical background my accordion days have given me ... Another point about the bellows control is that we also have to 'plan ahead' for long sustained notes, so that we do not change the direction of the bellows while playing a sustained note ... this was of critical importance during competitions ...

But I still play most songs as if I were singing them... ... which perhaps lends more to phrasing than to rhythm...
t.



[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 09-05-2006).]

Well, unless I'm not getting this, a lot of these responses are again talking about timing as opposed to rhythm. The 5/4 stuff is definitely about rhythm, but this stuff about dancing or moving or playing a solo a little too fast is more about timing. To me rhythm is about keeping the bars lined up. For instance, I hear demos of people who lose the rhythm and somehow start playing the melody on the 3 of the bar instead of the 1. So suddenly the measure is going 3 4 1 2 instead of 1 2 3 4. I mean, the timing is there, in that the person is staying with the beat, he's just on the wrong beat.

I was doing a demo for someone and he was a very basic guitar player. Well, he'd written this song not even knowing that he was switching from 3.4 to 4.4. He'd just "strum strum strum strum" the guitar, and sing along with it, and that strum strum was very steady, but he was just all over the place as far as beats per measure. I'd say he had timing, much as a metranome has timing, click click click, but he had no rhythm.

I think Chas is right...you "got it" or you don't". This is what separates the "men( or women) from the boys or (girls), I guess".

Top studio players "got it". I know many degreed musicians that "sadly" don't "got it".

Chas is also right in that, when the rythem section hits the pocket, it's a "beautiful thing".

I play one job a month for the State government with a lady who plays acoustic piano in a dining room 5 nights a week at a hotel. She's OK in that setting and very popular. But, adding a bass and drums creates a nightmare for everyone, including dancers.

It's all a matter of timing...


Russ