as a jazz player, I've been using arrangers (Korg is35, Technics kn2600, Gem genesys ProS) and pretty much kept to the bass/drums/percussion except for using the full
arrangements sparingly as a little added color on some tunes. I've been been thinking I could live without the full accompaniments altogether and might have a better choice of KB's if there were any workstation kb's that could provide bass lines w/chord recognition..anyone know of any?

Apart from arrangers which you have already stated parts of a style can be muted leaving just Bass & Percussion...All / Most Workstation Synths have an Arpeggiator which will follow your chord changes and could be used for Bass & Percussion.

[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 10-21-2006).]

Well, many workstations have arpeggiators that play patterns along with whatever chords you are playing. I'd expect you'd have to program the bass line patterns yourself though, as most workstations are not thinkging about jazz musicians. The Yamaha Motifs have a very nice arpeggiator. So does the Korg Karma. If you like programming your own arpeggios I'm sure these synthes could do what you want. Most of the built in factory arpeggios are probably geared to the techno/hiphop genres.

You are not, as a jazz player, going to find simple arpeggiation quite what you need. In fact, for my tastes, I rarely find even the arrangers' bass lines inspiring for jazz, it's that whole question of 'how does the arranger know the NEXT chord in advance', because that's how a bassist thinks when he (or she!) is playing, and it affects the line drastically. Arrangers, because of the nature of the beast, can only do simple, repeated motifs, rather than true voice leading. If you want bass and drums to do the true jazz thing, you are going to have to think of SMFs or mp3 players, and program what you want in advance, otherwise, what you are already using is by far the better choice.

On the other hand, if your taste in jazz tends towards the trip hop and acid jazz school, a MotifES or Triton, with a lot of work (!) might do - but if you want to swing or go straight ahead, sorry, arrangers are IT.....

If you need chord recognition, then your choices are Oasys, Karma, and Motif. The Motif is last because it does not recognize inversions. However, as Graham says, you might be happy with an arpeggiator even without chord recognition.

thanks all for replies, very informative. I'm in a position now
where I'm passing by the dealer I bought my Genesys ProS from on trip home to Miami on Tuesday, and she may take back that kb and can offer me Yamaha product in return. Looks like my choice here is between Tyros 2 and MO6...
things I need are what was discussed above re bass lines, dedicated transpose, easy switching between styles/sounds, tap tempo--great basic sounds: B3, piano, rhodes, vibes,
guitars, muted tpt, full brass, flute, voices, strings, a few more..btw I use bop, swing, latin, brazilian, funk as my
basic rhythm platforms. Waddaya think:T2 or Mo6?

------------------
Miami Mo

Mo, why would you want anything other than an arranger..Do you really want to develop your own bass lines, and even more important...drums..
It is so much better getting close to want you want with an arranger..You can edit or write your own styles, and use only what works for you.

Once anyone is use to an arranger[and use them to their fullest]..will never want to use a workstation in a live situation [by itself].

Of the two you mentioned, take the Tyros..

Hey Fran, are you starting to swing the other way....hehehe...good call....
TR



[This message has been edited by Tony Rome (edited 10-22-2006).]

Hmmmmm, let me think........ a $4000 arranger with dozens of jazz styles built in, or a $1200 workstation with little ability to follow jazz chords.....?

Guys,

None of you mentioned the sophisticated operating system of the MO6. I think it should be taken into account.

George

Hi Mo,
still not happy with the Genesys?

Hadn't heard of the M06 , so looked it up. http://www.yamaha-keyboard-guide.com/yamaha-mo6.html
If the advert is correct sounds more designed for modern dance music???

Main thing to check is you're comfortable with the operating system & that you can play it the way you want.Also that you like the styles & the sounds.

One good thing there a plenty of PSR & tyros users wheras the gem users appear to be far & few between.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by keysvocalssax:
[B]

[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 10-22-2006).]

george, would you expand on that for me? thanks?

also, everyone, I didn't want the price parameter to come
into play in your evaluation but as long as that was raised,
in my trade-in i could get a psr 1500 or possibly even
a 3k plus the MO6..how would that compare to you:
a T2 vs a MO6+psr1500 (or possibly 3k)

------------------
Miami Mo

Sax,

I have not played the Mo6 (or Mo8) so I am not known with its OS. However, I am in two minds about upgrading to either Mo8 or PSR3000 successor. I expect their price to be similar. The qustion is between 88 weighted keys and 61 (?) keys arranger.

I discussed the matters with a Mo8 owner (that's our synthzone fella Squeak) and he warned that the Mo8 OS is a very sophisticated one. Unfortunately, Squeak disappeared from SZ

There are plenty of yamaha synth users. You could get much more feedback. Please, visit http://www.motifator.com/ This is the "INTERACTIVE SUPPORT FOR YAMAHA MOTIF SERIES INSTRUMENTS"

Regards,
George

Hi Mo,
I'm a recent PSR1500 owner, great little keyboard for the money, but if you're used to top of the line sound quality, you may want to check it out more thoroughly before you decide.
It sounds no where near as good as my SD1 but bear in mind the sd was also well over double the price.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by keysvocalssax:

I just don't see the point in complicating your life any more than you have to..... Having to learn TWO completely different (and very complex) operating systems to achieve what just one is capable by itself doesn't make sense.

KVS.... have you test driven a T2 extensively, yet? Personally, I wouldn't want to complicate my life until I found out that I HAD to.... Give it a whirl, and you'll probably find it does just what you need.

thanks to all, think T2 is probably best choice for me..
even though I'm tempted by having a kb w/my name!
that Korg Pa800 looks more my thing, but this dealer
is only Gem/Yamaha. Anyone use the t2 sound system?
comments? do those clip-on satellites swivel toward the
audience? fotos all show facing the player only..
Miami MO

Oh man, I went and did it! The dealer was willing to take
back my Genesys proS and give me a T2, T2 sound system w/subwoofer and clip-on satellites, 10-pedal
foot controller, volume pedal, damper pedal, hard case,
dust cover in exchange. I'll be receiving shipment in about 2 weeks.
In the interim I will go to Sam Ash and demo the T2, maybe if i can find one of you living in S. Florida who will let me demo theirs for a fee? If I'm not thrilled by T2,
my inclination is to leave everything unopened..I still have
my Korg is35 and Technics KN2600 for gigs. I will then
wait for the Korg PA800 and Roland E60 to hit the stores and demo them, along with SD1plus and SD5. If I like one
of them better, I'll sell the T2 and accessories as new, or
work out some some of swap. Sound like a plan, man?

Maybe you could try to turn off the bass lines and play manual bass. I have been playing manual bass for a long time and I thought it is far superior than the arranger's automatic bass lines. In fact I just use the drum rythms and fill-ins. Everything else is manual.

I occasionally do play manual bass, if not always the bass sound then using the bottom end of the guitar, rhodes, B3 setting I am playing in full keyboard mode.
I don't like to do it a lot, because I find it limiting to my overall playing, and I happen to like most of the swing/latin bass lines programmed into the kb's I have used. Often what is very effective jazz-wise is to play manual LH bass while the programmed bass lines are playing. Can you do that on your kb?



------------------
Miami Mo

I suppose you can but probably requires to have 3 zones on your kb. TYROS 2 should be able to do that if you have enough real estate.

1. Chord area
2. Manual LH bass area
3. RH area

If you had a Chord Sequencer you could play the verse and chorus the first time using automatic bass, switch on the chord sequencer, mute the A.Bass part and play a REAL bass line for the rest. Or leave the A.Bass part on and have two hands for the piano part (heaven help us.... TWO hands for a piano part? What next? Be able to really USE the bender? )

Just trying to point out how so many of our 'difficulties' could be solved by the re-introduction of this essential feature......

Amen, learn to use your left hand. Buy some records by Dave Mckenna and learn to be a real jazz musician.

Hey, fella, I have been a "real" jazz musician since 1975
and I won't drop a long list on you, but many of the guys you have in your jazz record collection I have played with
or for, like Jimmy Smith, Tony Bennett, dozens more. Tell me who you are to tell others how to be real..

Dave Mckenna is a great old-time stride man, but almost all of the more modern cats prefer to play with a live bassist, and use lh bass out of economic necessity or when they can't find a suitable bassist. Maybe you can play better bass lines than the arranger kb , but what about laying your own lines into the arranger if you can do it better? otherwise, why use an arranger kb at all when
you can use a digital piano w/drum machine ? Unless you
are an organist or stride-type player, you are limiting
your pianistic creativity by restricting your lh to bass lines.
That's why I use an arranger..to expand my creativity.


------------------
Miami Mo

KVS..... having played with all those cats (and no doubt with some scary bassists!) you are pretty aware of how the bassline leads the changes, rather than just follow them and play repeated motifs. Yes, for sure, much smooth jazz and latin can be adequately covered by the arranger, but I find the straight ahead stuff pretty unacceptable. It just sounds like the bass player has no idea of where the tune is going (which of course he doesn't!).

If all you play along with is Bass and Drums with a little comp, perhaps for these kinds of tunes an SMF might make more sense, and allow you to program a real bassline. Most modern arrangers have a SMF locate ability, allowing you to program different intensity verse/choruses and switch in and out of them at your whim (so you don't have to play the same every night). Worth a try.....

Also, especially considering that you play horns as well (I'm a t'bone major, myself, but don't hold that against me!), you might want to take a hard look at an older Roland arranger with the Chord sequencer (most of them up to the G1000), and then you could play the first verse and chorus on the arranger and then go to the chord sequencer play and solo on the horn (doesn't HAVE to be Vs/chrs, any repeated section will work!). You would still have footswitch control of variation and fills, just the chords would be pre-done (on the fly, not in advance like all others make you), and you return to the keyboard when you feel like it.

For a horn player (or anyone who doubles) it is a major boon, and I wish more would jump on the bandwagon and scream for the return of this feature...... Sometimes, the latest, newest arranger isn't necessarily the most useful.

Diki,
thanks, I have been limited in using my horn, been just
letting kb stay on a pedal note and blowing over it for
a couple choruses on funk/latin for one tune a set...
don't want to get into setting up sequences...but I also
want to emphasize my vocals/key backing and downplay
my horn or i'm just always thought of as a horn player,
which is not how i want to work now, except for sittin in..

those are some great suggestions, I wasn't aware of the
on-the-fly chord sequencer..you said up to the g1000..
does that mean including the g1000? some guys on sz
love that model, guess I may have to search for one.
wonder what the tradeoffs would be, though, on features..
although I agree newer ain't always better:: the new Genesys i just dumped couldn't hold a candle to my 8-yr-old Korg is35 in every way except for the keybed, a fuller sound, and CD burner.

since I have been at the keys only since 2000, and mostly
solo, and all using arrangers, I haven't played with any bass players (let alone scary ones) as a keyboardist, only as a saxman. good point you make about it sounding like the bass doesn't know where it's going. but you know, one of the things I love about arrangers is the solid time, and ability to set the timbre and the volume..so unless it is
a real scary bassist, the arranger is superior to most of the
rest except for voice leading, and if the notes aren't a perfect match that is something 99% of the audience
can't distinguish, so I train myself to ignore it--because
the groove is there, and the balance is right, and it doesn't
overplay, or rush, or drag, or both, or try to be too aggressive in volume or play too many notes, or play with that whiny twang that's the latest fashion (yech). when i need to I can play my own bass line right over it if I'm using guitar, organ, rhodes...without using an actual
bass sound and splitting kb...it's unorthodax but it really
adds excitement to have 2 bass lines going..try it..

Diki,
you raise a lot of good points.
yes, the arr.bass doesn;t know where to go, and it sounds
like it..but to whom? to very highly trained ears only. That leaves out 99% of the audience, who groove on the tune and the feel, and will never notice incorrect bass notes. So
I choose to groove on the groove as well, and ignore what
I hear re notes, because only the scariest bass players have the kind of time or groove that a good arranger kb does, and it doesn't rush, drag, or both--doesn't play too
many notes or too loud or too soft, doesn't use that (yech)
twangy nasal sound that's the rage in jazz recently.

that said, as a kbdist only past 6 yrs, I learned a lot from your suggestions re SMF's and especially the on-the-fly chord seq..of which i was not aware. A lot of sz guys love the g1000..maybe i need to find one and check it out..

although.. I'm trying to establish myself as a vocalist/kbdist, and don't wan't to play too much horn with that, because at this point everyone likes my vocal/kbd, but they LOVE my horn, and I don't want to be a full-time horn player any more..just want to have a bit of fun with it at jams and gigs. so playing a tune a set with a horn solo
in the middle of it, blowing over a single pedal chord, has
been passable..but i would like to blow over changes once
in a while..
Mo

sorry to say the same thing twice, but the site told
me I was flooding (I wasn't) and that the first one was rejected..which I guess wasn't..hey Nigel, wazzup wit it?

Simple solution.
Pre record the changes, and rhythm ( with a secquencer, arranger, or manually ) to your favorite songs to solo over and use a midi file or MP3 track when the NEED for sax arises.
If people love the horn ...... I say - Give 'em what they want !

Who knows ???? I guess the BBS software just hit some sort of glitch. I suppose duplicate postings is better than a glitch that would lose your posting altogether.

Well, I agree that 99% of your audience probably can't tell the difference, but as you've probably seen, the few who can, and most jazz players (yourself included) tend to have a very high standard for realism in this most purist of styles.

And if you are playing with too busy bassists, or too loud or bad timing, well, all I can say is - they aren't THAT scary, then!

Yes, the G1000 was the last Roland to include the Chord sequencer, and having played one for 9 yrs, I can assure you that, while you might miss some of the newer sounds and features, the ability to solo on your horn over a just played set of changes (no having to set everything up in advance) is worth every trade off versus a modern arranger.

I still find it amazing that the chord sequencer isn't as universal on all arrangers as the fill buttons or the SMF player........