I am feeling VERY excited today. I just received an email (and program file attachment) from Sandro Fontanella (Ketron, Italy). He sent me an SD1 "beta version" software update which includes the 'rootless chord' voicing recognition that I have been requesting for since January.

Sandro says he has implemented the chord voicings I requested as outlined in my Synthzone posting thread:
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/001167.html

Unfortunately I don't own an SD1 (yet) so cannot test this out. Luckily, forum member friend, Roel de jonge, has agreed to test this out for me and I'm VERY anxious to find out the results. If there are any other Synthzone member SD1 owners or dealers out there interested in checking this out, please let me know. - Scott

great news Scott, so whn ae you getting one? start saving your money :>)

Scott,

That is great news. I would love to try it out on my SD1. Please email me a copy. Thanks.

Henry
henryhoho@lycos.com

[This message has been edited by Henry01 (edited 07-25-2001).]

Hi DNJ, I certainly am getting MUCH closer to going with the SD1, especially with the news of the rootless chord voicing recognition finally being implemented. I wonder if Solton will be able to clear up (via OS upgrade?) the noisy DSP (chorus?) effects that was reported by Dreamer and confirmed by Roel as well. All in all though, the SD1 looks like the STRONGEST contender in consideration for my next arranger keyboard. I just wish I could find an SD1 located near me (within 100 miles) to audition. Still looking but (so far) NO success. - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 07-25-2001).]

Hmm...
Scott, it seems that you're a kind of
"hooked" on the new SD1, even before you've
heard or seen it "live"
Wondering about what happens when you get the chance to try it.
It's going to be quite a job to rebuild all your
backing presets
GJ

Hi Gunnar, Actually I DID have a chance to play the SD1 (abeit VERY briefly) back in January and was quite impressed with both sound/styles .

I probably won't make a FINAL decision until I can audition the SD1 once again now that the rootless chord recognition has been added. Funny thing is that this may prove a MORE difficult feat than the implementation of the rootless chord recognition feature itself, because (so far) there are still NO Solton dealers in Northern California willing to stock the SD1. Whether I decide to purchase an SD1 or not, I WILL continue to be a devoted Technics arranger keyboard fan and will probably purchase the KN7000 eventually as well - Scott

Scott,
That was some good news indeed. Please send me a copy of the OS upgrade. What else does this OS contain in terms of changes?
Send OS to:-

ketron_tech@yahoo.com

Thanks ...
AJ

CLARIFICATION: This is NOT an official SD1 OS update release. It is a 'BETA TEST' version which Sandro sent to me to test out the newly implemented jazz style rootless chord recognition feature. After installation, the OS version still reads 1.0A. Preliminary reports I got from Roel show that this update DOES recognize all of the rootless voicings I originally requested (except one). I am delighted because this one exception (F-A-B-E = Fmaj7b5 instead of G13) is not so important because F-B-E is already recognized as G13.

My only question NOW is are these 'rootless' chord voicings recognized in BOTH "full keyboard" AND "split keyboard" modes?

ALSO, Another important test to perform is to verify that these SAME chord voicings are recognized properly in all OTHER keys as well. Such as:

'Left hand' chord voicings in 'full' and/or 'split' keyboard modes:

G - D - F# : Em7(9)
G - C# - F#: A13
F# - B - E : D69

Bb - F - A : Gm7(9)
Bb - E - A : C13
A - D - G : F69

A - Eb - G : F7(9)
E - Bb - D : C7(9)
D - Ab - C : Bb7(9)

Two handed chord voicings in full keyboard mode:
Ab - D - G C - F - Bb : Bb13
(left hand) (right hand)

F - B - E A - D - G : G13
(left hand) (right hand)

Perhaps Roel, Dirk, Henry, and AJ could report back the results of playing the above voicings . MANY MANY thanks - Scott

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 07-25-2001).]

Scott,
The keyboard is the way you make a living. Take a couple days off and drive down to George Kaye's shop. You don't change keyboards very often, so that would be a small feat for such a big decision.
DonM


[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 07-25-2001).]

Hi Scott,
I will test this upgrade for you, but my sd1 is now not at my home !! i have several gig's this moment, and he is always traveling in the car of our musicians. Still i think at this moment the recognizing of some chords are very good of the x1 and sd1.
I can use several jazzchords on both.
You must only take sometimes 5 notes to recognize the chord.
Some examples :
left hand chords:
G-B-DB-F = G7b5
G-A-Bb-D-F = Gm7/9
G-A-C-D-F : G11 (or Dm7/G)
G-A-B-D = G2
G-Bb-C-Db-E = C7b9
C-E-G-A-D = C6/9
ETC.....
Scott, its not always the jazzvoicing you'll take normally on the piano or keyboard for the left-hand(and not always rootless), but the arranger recognize all this chords. Also b10 chord you can play. Another trick is to play the harmony's(with the tensions) on the right site of the keyboard and the basic chord on left(arranger).
Regards Dirk.
http://www.mp3.com/dirkbaert



------------------

Scott,

Thanks for sending me the OS update. The rootless chord recognition works perfectly. It recognized all the chords you requested in both pianist & left hand split mode except F-A-B-E. Honestly I would prefer F-A-B-E to be recognized as Fmaj7b5 than as G13.

These chord voicings work in all other keys too.

Henry

scott,

why not just fly down to georges shop and try it out for a day or so? or forget the SD-1 and since your a big Technics affectionato just buy another Kn5000 for backup and studio work, I'm sure you can get one at a great price.

donny

Henry, GREAT to hear that the rootless chord recognition works in both full & split keyboard modes and in ALL keys as well. FANTASTIC !

Henry, I now agree with you that the notes
F-A-B-E should be recognized as Fmaj7b5 (instead of G13), especially now since F-B-E is now recognized as G13. I believe that Sandro has set it up this way to keep us ALL happy

Donny & DonM: I think you are both right about playing and auditioning again before purchasing. The option of flying down (via SouthWest Airlines) to George's place is certainly a consideration but I guess having to travel far afield is something I NEVER had to do before for ANY purchase I have ever made (BIG or small), especially considering that I live in one of the LARGEST metropolitan areas of the ENTIRE US.
- Scott

Hi Scott

Consider ordering an SD1 from Guitar Center and taking it back if you do not like it. That would be one way for us to get a demo locally.

Clif

Great News on the rootless chords .
I have a shipment of SD1's arriving . GC is offering 7 months same as cash starting on Friday . Dano

[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 07-25-2001).]

DanO
What is GC's BEST price on the SD1? Also, if I order from your GC on the East coast, do I still have to pay Calif sales tax? How about shipping? You can email me privately if you wish. Thanks.
Tom

DanO1,

If I buy things from you, can you ship it to me, here in San Francisco area ?

Can I return the item(s) to the nearest GC in my area if I decide not to keep it ?

Thanks
Han

Scott,
If you fly down from SF I'll buy you lunch!. Please email me the beta version and whatever instructions Sandro emailed you please.
George Kaye

UPDATE:
I just received DETAILED feedback from Roel that the Sd1's rootless chord recognition does not appear to be "fully completed" yet. Perhaps Sandro sent this first "beta test" as a sample ONLY, as the chords are not being correctly recognized in ALL keys yet. Here are the test result details. I have forwarded this to Sandro.

Chord Progressions (both split & full keyboard modes):

II – V7 – I : Bill Evans inspired A Voicings (arranger keyboard variation):

Dm7(9) G13 C69
(F-C-E) - (F-B-E) - (E-A-D)
++ ALL OK

Ebm7(9) Ab13 Db69
(Gb-Db-F) – (Gb-C-F) – (F-Bb-Eb)
++Recognized INCORRECTLY as Dmin9 G13 C69

Em7(9) A13 D69
(G-D-F#) – (G-C#-F#) – (F#-B-E)
++Recognized INCORRECTLY as Dmin9 G13 C69

Fm7(9) Bb13 Eb69
(Ab-Eb-G) – (Ab-D-G) – (G-C-F)
++Recognized INCORRECTLY as Dmin9 G13 C69

F#m7(9) B13 E69
(A-E-G#) - (A-D#-G#)– (G#-C#-F#)
++Recognized INCORRECTLY as Dmin9 G13 C69

II – V7 – I : Bill Evans inspired B Voicings (arranger keyboard variation)

Gm7 C13 Fmaj7
(F-G-Bb-D) – (E-A-Bb-D) – (E-F-A-C)

Abm7 Db13 (F#maj7)
(Gb-Ab-Cb-Eb) – (F-Bb-Cb-Eb) – (F-F#-A#-C#)

Am7 D13 Gmaj7
(G-A-C-E) (F#-B-C-E) (F#-G-B-D)

Bbm7 Eb13 Abmaj7
(Ab-Bb-Db-F) (G-C-Db-F) (G-Ab-C-Eb)

Bm7 E13 Amaj7
(A-B-D-F#) (G#-C#-D-F#) (G#-A-C#-E)

Cm7 F13 Bbmaj7
(Bb-C-Eb-G) (A-D-Eb-G) (A-Bb-D-F)

Dbm7 F#13 Bmaj7
(Cb-Db-Fb-Ab) (A#-D#-E-G#) (A#-B-D#-F#)

++ALL seven above '13th' chords are incorrectly recognized as G13 !!! ...... the other chords are OK !


Dominant Chords: Rootless (both split & full keyboard modes)

C7(9) (E-Bb-D)
Db7(9) (F-B-Eb)
D7(9) (F#-C-E)
Eb7(9) (G-Db-F)
E7(9) (G#-D-F#)
F7(9) (A-Eb-G)
F#7(9) (Bb-E-G#)
G7(9) (B-F-A)
Ab7(9) (C-Gb-Bb)
A7(9) (C#-G-B)
Bb7(9) (D-Ab-C)
B7(9) (D#-A-C#)

++ The above Dominant chords are recognized as G7(9). ALL are INCORRECT except for (B-F-A).

Two Handed Chords: (full keyboard mode)

Chord Name (lthand) (rt hand)
C13: (Bb-E-A) (D-G-C)
Db13 (Cb-F-Bb) (Eb-Ab-Db)
D13 (C-F#-B) (E-A-D)
Eb13 (Db-G-C) (F-Bb-Eb)
E13 (D-G#-C#) (F#-B-E)
F13 (Eb-A-D) (G-C-F)
F#13 (E-A#-D#) (G#-C#-F#)
G13 (F-B-E) (A-D-G)
Ab13 (Gb-C-F) (Bb-Eb-Ab)
A13 (G-C#-F#) (B-E-A)
Bb13 (Ab-D-G) (C-F-Bb)
B13 (A-D#-G#) (C#-F#-B)

C7(9) (E-Bb-D) (G-C)
Db7(9) (F-B-Eb) (Ab-Db)
D7(9) (F#-C-E) (A-D)
Eb7(9) (G-Db-F) (Bb-Eb)
E7(9) (G#-D-F#) (B-E)
F7(9) (A-Eb-G) (C-F)
F#7(9) (Bb-E-G#) (C#-F#)
G7(9) (B-F-A) (D-G)
Ab7(9) (C-Gb-Bb) (Eb-Ab)
A7(9) (C#-G-B) (E-A)
Bb7(9) (D-Ab-C) (F-Bb)
B7(9) (D#-A-C#) (F#-B)

++ALL above "2 handed chords "are recognized correctly

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 07-26-2001).]

Hi Scott
Wow! How LONG did it take you to type in the above response?? I know this topic is near and dear to your heart (and playing style) -it must be to do ALL that typing of chords!!

Tom

Some people play scales, others type chords... it's all about exercise!

Scott,

I just received a second OS update from Sandro for the SD1. This update correctly recognizes all the chords you listed above. I will forward this update to Roel for more testing.

Henry

Hi Henry,
This IS great and I never saw this kind of Beta-testing+quick-fix like Sandro (ketron) does.
A fantastic 'relation' between a producer of a product and the customers.

Ketron IS listening to the customers, and this cannot be said about many other brands.

I got the files and loaded them into the SD1.
Well.... I tested all chords Scott typed in and they are recognized as expected.
As you wrote Henry, not all 12 keys are implemented yet, but strictly the ones Scott listed. Scott is fast too and completed the list below. I do hope Sandro finds time to fix the rest before the factory closes for holidays in Italy !

I'm sure Scott will catch a plane very soon to do the final-testing and ordering the SD1 now......(in Amsterdam ?)

Roel


[This message has been edited by Roel (edited 07-27-2001).]

I thought Sandro was working on Ruthless chords ????????? Dan O

Yes, this is GREAT to have so much cooperation from Sandro at Ketron/Solton as well as others here (especially Roel & Henry for testing) to get this rootless voicing thing implemented. I really think these newly added keyboard voicings are important and will bring the SD1 up to the level of Yamaha & Technics in the chord recognition dept. When this happens, I think that Yamaha & Technics will have some catching up to do with Solton in other areas.

To keep everyone informed and up to speed, I have sent the following list to Sandro which includes the rest (to include all 12 keys now) of the chord voicings and associated chord names.

Henry: I noticed in your email to Sandro that you notated all the chord names with accidentals as sharps (#s's). Though your chords are enharmonically correct , I prefer that some of them be notated as flats ((b's) (such as Bb13 instead of A#13).I have listed (below) my preferred (more commonly recognized) chord names as well. Thanks again to all for your support & assistance.

Here is the updated listing I sent to Sandro:

II – V7 –I : Bill Evans inspired A Voicings (arranger keyboard variation):

Gm7(9) C13 F69
(Bb-F-A) (Bb-E-A) (A-D-G)

Abm7(9) C#13 F#69
(B-Gb-Bb) (B-F-A#) (A#-D#-G#)

Am7(9) D13 G69
(C-G-B) (C-F#-B) (B-E-A)

Bbm7(9) Eb13 Ab69
(Db-Ab-C) (Db-G-C) (C-F-Bb)

Bm7(9) E13 A69
(D-A-C#) D-G#-C#) (C#-F#-B)

Cm7(9) F13 Bb69
(Eb-Bb-D) (Eb-A-D) (D-G-C)

Dbm7(9) F#13 B69
(E-B-Eb) (E-A#-D#) (D#-G#-C#)


II – V7 –I : Bill Evans inspired B Voicings (arranger keyboard variation):

Dm7 G13 Cmaj7
(C-D-F-A) (B-E-F-A) (B-C-E-G)

Ebm7 Ab13 Dbmaj7
(Db-Eb-Gb-Bb) (C-F-Gb-Bb) (C-Db-F-Ab)

Em7 A13 Dmaj7
(D-E-G-B) C#-F#-G-B) (C#-D-F#-A)

Fm7 Bb13 Ebmaj7
(Eb-F-Ab-C) (D-G-Ab-C) (D-Eb-G-Bb)

F#m7 B13 Emaj7
(E-F#-A-C#) (D#-G#-A-C#) (D#-E-G#-B)

[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 07-27-2001).]

Technics KN Keyboardists !!

All of the above jazz chord voicings are 'already' recognized on the Technics KN5000/6000/6500 (in full keyboard mode only though. The SD1 will support this in BOTH split & full keyboard modes ), so go ahead a try them out. I suggest practicing/memorizing the II-V7-I chord progressions in EVERY key.

You will find that this II-V7-I progression is the MOST often used progression in popular music. With these voicings, you will be able to play this progression using smooth voicing leading (minimal amount of finger/hand moving between chords).

Soon you will be able to integrate these voicings in your keyboard playing and really sound like a jazz style player. Have Fun !

- Scott

I admit it took A LOT of time (but my fingers aren't tired yet, because I've spent years practicing scales, arpeggios, etc to prepare for this ). I do think it's worth the effort though because this chord voicing recognition thing offers the ability for even jazz trained keyboard players to play the arranger keyboard (playing & hearing live, the type of chord voicings they are accustomed to playing). I think this in effect will BROADEN the market appeal for arranger keyboards and hopefully will bring added respect to arranger keyboard playing by traditional jazz style pianist musicians as well.

Hey, after getting Solton 'onboard' with rootless chord support,, maybe I"ll start on Roland and Korg (heehee)
- Scott [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

Hi Scott!
I wish you would record some of your "rootless" chord progressions on your KN5k - and email the file to me. Just the simple chord progressions (maybe versus the same chords with the root being played). I'd like to hear what you are talking about. Is this possible? Or can these only be played "live"?
Tom

Hi Tom. With all the II-V7 1 chord voicings provided for in great detail above, you should easily be able to make a chord comparison test yourself on your KN5000

Begin by selecting the piano sound (RT1), playing (in full keyboard mode) with the auto accomp arranger function turned OFF.

Now, play with your left hand (in the octave just below middle C) a standard II - V7 - I chord progression in the key of C (voiced like this):

Dm7 - G7 - C
(D-F-A-C) - (D-F-G-B) - (E-G-C)

now play the SAME progression but voiced this way:

Dm79 - G13 - C69
(F-C-E) - (F-B-E) (E-A-D)

You will notice that the first way sounds consonant and pure (defined) while the second method sounds more open and less defined. Played without any accompaniment, the first method probably sounds much more satisfying to the ears. The second way may sound awful to some ears. Hold on, stay with me. Please don't give up on me yet.

Now (in full keyboard mode), select the medium tempo swing style:'Jazz Trio' and mute all accompaniment tracks except drums, acoustic bass & Piano (RT1) part. Set the tempo at around 120 or slower. Play the SAME two chord progressions (one measure for 1st two chords and 2 measures for last chord: total=4 bars) With the now added accomp parts, you may notice that the second version (rootless chords) begins to sound better and more interesting. If you turn UP the Bass auto-accompaniment part, you will notice that "IT" is the instrument now providing the chord root notes (the foundation of the harmonies) in the walking bass pattern it plays. The 3 note piano voicings are now free to supply the chord tensions (9th, 6th, 13th) while the bass is playing the foundation of the chords (roots).

Now, go back and play the chord progressions with your left hand (both above versions) with auto accomp still turned ON, and solo over the chord changes with the right hand. You will notice that there is a big difference in the sound. The first method sounds good yet basic (like vanilla, chocolate) but the second method sounds more open, yet complex (ethereal rasberry vanilla with chocolate chip & almonds). This opens up your right hand soloing options to more possibilities. Because the keyboard rootless type comping chords do not include the root, this keeps the harmonies more undefined and opens up the right hand to go in more directions. This in turn provides us (as musicians) a wider palette of colors to choose from when expressing ourselves (soloing) over the chord changes.

I hope this helps. - Scott
http://scottyee.com

PS: Also try the below two handed comping chords and compare the first version (basic but good) to the second version. The second version, with the wider more open chord voicing and the added 13th (6th) note (D), adds another subtle flavor (spice) to the mix and results in slightly more complex sound. As a musician, you are like a chef, able to add/remove spices as needed to enhance your creation. The TRICK is what spices to use and in what quantities. That's in another story.
The bottom line is to experment and have FUN !

version 1:

(F-A-Eb) - (G-C-F): F79
left hand - right hand

version 2:

(Eb-A-D) - (G-C-F): F13
left hand - right hand


[This message has been edited by Scottyee (edited 07-28-2001).]

Scott,
I am gonna buy myself an ice-cream.

Hi Scott
Thanks for the instructions. I will print everything out and try for myself later today or tomorrow. I guess that means no KN5 file from you

It's interesting that you liken playing music to preparing food. You have never tasted my cooking! I would say it's about as good as my playing. Especially when I prepare my specialty - rootless vegetables!


Tom

Now I get it! My problem is that I love carrots, and they are a "root only" vegatable ! Gheeeeze, it's so simple.

(nice work Scott - good explaination)

Received an email today from Sandro to inform us that his Solton Engineers have left for a 4 week VACATION (did my rootless chord project overwhelm them? ) but will be back on 8/27 to "finalize" the implementation of the SD1 rootless chord voicing recognition table, as outlined on this posting thread.

So far it seems he has been able to implement 'all' desired chords (per Roel & Henry's detailed testing), so now only needs to make minor corrections like changing the "display" of certain enharmonic chords (A#13 to Bb13 etc). - Scott

Yo...Uncle Dave.....All this talk makes me want to have a root canal ! I've had this done by my dentist and he suggested playing 3rd's and 5 th's for a day or two . Dan O

Hi Scott,
I heard through the grapevine that Solton engineers are going to sue you for over-exploitment. They are already asking Sandro for a HUGE salary increase and Sandro is planning to sell you a special edition of the SD1 with your name engraved in gold letters for about $ 10.000.

Dan,
Sounds like you have a very "Dominant" dentist!
(sorry - couldn't resist!)

Ok you guys, "Get your kicks ... on root 66"

Yes ......very dominant indeed . That was funny . Wow ...what would I do without this forum . Have I told you about my wife ? She gives great .......head ache . "what are you doing on that computer ? " she ask's.....Learning to type I say .....Dan o

If I ever REALLY learn how to type - watch out! I'll never shut up! As it is now, this is a chore to keep up with my ideas as i try to type them.