There are features here not found on other Roland products that many "non-recreational" arranger players might find interesting. Think of how you could interact with your audience. This could be a great one for Mikey Maestro.
http://www.roland-vima.com/]Roland VIMA

Combine this with the G70 and Altier concepts and add another 10 lbs. and maybe you could have a G-90!



[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 02-02-2008).]

Corrected link
http://www.roland-vima.com/

Thanks, Jedi.

Donny, I knew you would search out that old post, but you were talking about the Altier and I thought I'd throw the VIMA out there again. A lot of readers would not have remembered or gone back to that thread. Thanks. OH< NO that's not the thread I was thinking of, this is the one I meant. http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/016448.html

I can imagine seeing you playing on a big screen with the words you're singing running along the bottom. And everyone is singing along and you have so much work that you start your own arranger agency on the east coast.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 02-02-2008).]

The OP is pretty close.

Cass you have no idea how close you are..

No Problem , Cass

Maybe an E-90 ? at some point

Is it just me...? Or does ANYONE 'get' this?

Video, karaoke, whatever happened to just playing? When did sitting down at a piano (or an arranger) and entertaining yourself or a few friends become not enough? When did it become a huge multimedia production. Complete with pre-canned backing AND visuals

So it will display pictures from your camera... What's next? A built-in printer? How about a fax machine? Wait, I need some espresso! Got an attachment for that?! ROFLMAO...

This looks like a product looking for a species that might use it. What happened at Roland? Did aliens take over? Most of their decisions lately lead me to believe this...

I honestly can't believe any of you aren't treating this with the contempt it deserves.

I guess Roland are allowed the occasional brain fart like anyone else.

It's this 'everything to the max' mindset. The sort of thing that all-night talk radio host Art Bell likes to call 'the quickening'.

Diki, I think you're getting too much sun. Have you seen the state of the art DJs? They're not too far away from this kind of stuff now - video, live cams, big screen monitors, karaoke - the works.

You or we can be music purists and insist the music be played, but haven't we already started down that road with arrangers, SMFs, mp3's, lights, etc.? All it takes is for one musically inclined go-getter to start something like this and the DJs will be out of work; this guy will be taking all the business. This could be the entertaining musician's avenue back into the mainstream of weddings and parties that pay real money.

I'm not saying it's an idea for me, but the commercial applications are vast. Mark my words, somebody soon is going to be doing this... if he isn't already.

Let me continue...

You hire a sidekick to handle A/V. He/she takes live shots of the hot bods on the beach dancing and vogueing. You post up quick pics of those sitting around. Your sidekick uploads pics from customers' wallets. You have your own slide shows that are sync'd to your music, like part of the registration setting. Everybody has a great time watching the 52" screen and dancing under the flashing LED lights. As it gets darker and the mood lightens up, you switch from playing arranger/SMF type music to songs with the lyrics on the screen. The crowd watches you perform. Your guy takes more live action shots of the crowd singing along, having the time of their lives because they're part of the entertainment too.

You pump up the volume, sing another song with the lyrics up on the screen and ask that beautiful woman dancing next to the stage to come up and sing with you. BAM! Now the crowd's into it. Her boyfriend wants to sing a love song. Bring him on stage and voile, karaoke - and YOU'RE in control. Play the damn song yourself, the words will follow your lead.

The amazing part of all of this is you are controlling the music, the mix , the audio and video all from your keyboard. If you want to play, then play. If you want to watch, watch.

And you think Roland is crazy? Crazy like a fox! This is cutting edge stuff. If they don't advance this concept, you'll see some other Asian corporation take the ball and turn this into the next entertainment phenomenon. Meanwhile, the old fashioned DJs will be sulking out in the cold along with the "musicians."

It'll never work in nursing homes. Are you crazy??? Pure audio-video-musical heaven. Spend a day collecting information about the residents. Scan some family pictures. Get shots of the neighboring countryside or whatever. Sing "I Left My Heart..." and have a quick slide show of SanFran. Have a live cam on-hand. Show them singing and having a good time. Save the recording (or make a separate recording of your set) and let the NH play it during the week. Do you think you won't be the most popular guy there? You'll be asked back immediately.

Playing that retirement party, the kid's birthday party, a 50th wedding anniversary? This is a winning concept. Who wants to be the first one on the block to try this? I don't think it will be me, but one of you can do this.

Hey diki,

Kinda rings a bell - on my last gig one my audience came up to me while I was setting up and asked if I was actually going to play something or just press buttons. Makes you think. I kindly told her I would do a little of both - to which she replied "oh shit".. It seldom occurs to us that most of the folks who come to listen do so to hear "live" music.

Hammer

You guys bitch about a 40 lb keyboard. Now you want to haul a 52" TV around with you? Jeez... it's hard enough to get them to stop watching the TV if it has anything on it, and maybe just look at YOU, now you want to add to their distractions.

Hey, cassp... go for it! Best of luck. Oh, hang on a minute, you are saying you WOULDN'T do any of this, but you think someone else might...

Kind of sounds like the Roland Marketing dept.. "Well, maybe WE would never use it, but maybe possibly there is SOMEONE who might... Let's go ahead and build it anyway!"

They are having a hard enough time just selling regular arrangers these days. What better way to increase sales than add a bunch of marginally convergent features (that no-one I know would use in a million years) to an overweight, overpriced, underperforming arranger housed in an unmovable case?

Let's face it, how many of us here would lug this monster around so the could show some video during the show (and if we did, surely a DVD player is a LOT less expensive)? In fact, how many of us do this now (this ain't something that we COULDN'T do even without a VIMA)?

Darn few, if any. I don't get out in the sun THAT much... but I sure would like to know what you are smoking cassp .

Roland E80 already can synchronize pictures with registrations, and scroll lyrics on an external TV superimposed on the pictures (while you still monitor the regular touch screen. Just exactly how many players here have you heard go 'This is the greatest thing ever added to an arranger!! You have GOT to get this added to your OS!'

NOT ONE...

EVER.

I can IMAGINE someone that MIGHT like to have a mini-bar built in to their home keyboard..! There's probably at least ONE person that could use this. But I wouldn't expect for one minute that a company like Korg or Yamaha would build it and try to market it! At least, not in the US.

No, this is a product for the karaoke and camera obsessed far east. I just don't see the cultural need for this over here, and, to be honest, I hope I never do.

Then I hope I die quickly.

chas

Cass.....dont worry, this is a big world.....yo make some great points....there's enough Pie out there for everyone....
Find your slice & Eat it I say!!

I think there are plenty of people out there, maybe not here on the SZ, but out in the mix who will be doing this within the next five years.

What am I smoking, you ask. All I will say is the name of the band is TOKEN!

I agree with Diki, that no one here has jumped up saying how they have to have all these features. Of course not, most of us are still musician- entertainers. Turn the paradigm inside out and this idea becomes a frightening possibility. Carry around a 52" monitor - not me, but have you seen some of the speaker setups these DJs have? You'd think they were playing Fenway Park or something.

Hey, us over-the-hillers are content to tweak our technology a little and buy a new keyboard every once in a while. But it won't be us who start this craze. I've got a few DJ friends who come close to this now. Add live playing and singing to the mix and it's a hit.

Yamaha was showcasing a double keyboard combo organ/arranger a couple years ago. I can't find anything about on the net right now, but it would our SZ answer to the C1 if we could get it made here. But now Roland is throwing this VIMA concept out there. The boards presently available are not viable for the commercial market, but if they wanted to they could put this into a 40 lb. package in no time.

I could be wrong, but technology is moving so fast, that I can forsee a 52" screen that weighs 4 lbs or less. Would you refuse to carry that? All this stuff is possible. Just because you don't like what you see and read doesn't mean it ain't gonna happen.

So, Donny... you saying YOU might get one of these (for a couple of months, anyway!)....?

You've already got a laptop... You using that to feed monitors (video, that is!) while you perform?

I didn't think so.

That's why I find this thing so ridiculous... it fills a need perfectly, that no-one actually has..!

The patent offices are filled with designs for products that have no market, or customer. They rarely ever get made, just sit there gathering dust until someone writes a book about silly Victorian inventions, or the like. This is where this belongs, not taking up Roland's time...

There's a reason that American music gets played on Japanese radio, but Japanese music never gets played on American radio. American musicians have better things to concentrate on than whether there is a slide-show synced to their karaoke tracks. Like making MUSIC...

I’m confused; Wersi OAS instruments have been able to do this for years, (So it’s hardly new) as it has a computer at its heart.
What is it used for? Teach INS to show the screen display to the audience, Karaoke if you’re that way inclined. (Virtually all Wersi players avoid this like the plague)
The main use however is a video camera and screen to let the punters see what you are actually playing, without being hidden behind an Arranger/Organ, (Who knows whether you’re playing or not if they can’t see you) and also for mood shots to enhance the music experience.
So we come back to the beginning, what’s all the fuss about.

Bill

Integration Integration Integration. Multi Media integration. That’s the way the entertainment industry is going.
A lot of persons don’t seem to understand where new products are heading.
Lets be real, if you are playing an arranger, you are in the entertainment business not the music business.

If you want to be in the music business, play a piano.

If you want to be in the music business, play music.

If you want to be in the entertainment industry, press 'PLAY'...

The concept is a prime example of "Thinking Outside the Box." or "The Lateral Thinking" concept. It could have some real entertainment value and if it makes a musician money all the more power to them. The concept may not be one that I use or prefer but whose really to say that it couldn't be a real money maker.

As the so-called 'entertainment' industry moves us into the era of 'integration', do any of you actually stop and figure out what this actually means, or is it 'four legs good, two legs bad' sheep-like response to their brainwashing?

The 'entertainment' business, since the advent of MTV, and MUCH more rapidly now there's a complete generation who have grown up thinking that music and video are the same thing, have achieved in persuading the masses that actually having any talent is irrelevant. Their model for what 'entertains' us is very pretty, very young, attractive dancers with little or no musical ability, and they let technology - lip-sync-ing, karaoke, Auto-Tune and Pro-Tools - substitute for any actual ability.

These things, all the multimedia 'convergence', flashing lights, glamor and makeup but no ability, is exactly the thing that the VIMA is tapping into. Dazzle them with video, watch the screen, not my hands, and you might not notice I'm not playing...

This is a forum of people that can (mostly!) actually play music. Products like this are developed for people that CAN'T. Let us not think for one minute that sticking our aged and gnarly mugs up on a screen while we play is 'entertainment' of any kind (other than perhaps comedy!). Our audiences are brainwashed into wanting pretty young things with good lip-syncing chops. We are none of that.

The more you divert people's attention away from the fact that you are actually playing (you ARE actually playing, aren't you? ), the more you trivialize your skills, and open the door for someone ACTUALLY young and pretty to come in, fake that they are playing (or even singing) and take your gig.

Integration is GREAT for the business of those that sell the tools for it, but has anyone considered whether it is great for us? The industry is definitely moving towards this, but they are doing it with pretty young things under the age of 25. I doubt whether anyone here falls into that category. We're a bunch of mostly over 50, pretty gnarly-looking (at least from the frapper and posted pics I've seen! ) old geezers. Integration is the LAST thing we need...

Or you run the risk of being lumped in with the target consumer for products like this... People that can't play or sing, but want it to look pretty while they do it.

That's NOT you, is it?

BTW, I recommend a documentary, showing on IFC at the moment, by Andrew Shapter, called 'Before the Music Dies', as a scathing indictment of the current state of the recording and so-called 'entertainment' business. Watch it if you can.

Integration...? Not if I can help it!

That seems like a pretty closed-minded approach. If we were to apply that mindset to the SZ 10 yrs. ago, I doubt we would have the members we do have playing the technology-laden instruments they now have.

Please don't let this topic scare you; it's just going to be a part of our future whether we choose to participate or not.

As for "musicians playing," whether we know it, notice it or acknowledge it or not, there's a lot of "press PLAY" in almost every major musical venue today.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 02-03-2008).]

Cass, if we let all the 'musicians' succumb to 'press and play', who's going to make all those styles, SMF's, and factory demos for us to 'fake play' to. BTW, is there a keyboard version of "Guitar Hero". I might be able to put on a wig and some wrinkle remover, get some fake tatoos, and get me a rock gig. Hey, they're still turning out for the Rolling Stones. I can't look any worse than Keith Richards. Hmmm, Air synth, I think it might fly.

chas

This technology doesn't have to mean the end of "musicians" or even "music players." I think what some people are failing to see is that in addition to being good musicians, we will have to be even more technology savy than we are today. None of the stuff in a VIMA negates musical ability. To the contrary, I think a real musician can really shine here. All this is, is putting A/V technology in your hands. Use what you want how you want. You can basically run a TV or movie studio along with your playing IF YOU WANT.

Again, I'm not saying I would want to do this or that this should become the state of our art, but it is something that is on the cutting edge. We 50+ codgers may not have an interest, but arrangers are gaining ground in the marketplace. What will those 30-40 yr. olds be playing when they hit 55? That's what my post was all about. The VIMA is a viable concept - for somebody. If it stays recreational, all well and good. If it goes commercial, don't say I didn't tell you so. As a few have commented. The separate technology is already here and being used. This is just an integration of technologies.

How about this. There's a musician who gave up the circuit to become a DJ . He tired of that and turned his attentions to professional photograhy. He's a whiz on the internet. You mean to tell me a guy like that wouldn't be trying out this concept.

.....it was the year 2011 when the newest arranger keyboard turned ITSELF on and spoke it's first word....da da. It was looking at a blu-ray, flat screen, mp3,4or5 player at the time. Never again would it be subservient to man....further, it would only entertain other machines. Man, and musicians in particular, must be destroyed before MUSIC EARTH can be conquered. But in a few years, from the rubble of what used to be the music industry (MUSIC EARTH), a hero will emerge. ...and he shall be called....(tune in next week for chapter 2).

chas

DIKI ?

oops... I'm sorry.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 02-03-2008).]

can't understand what all the fuss is about, this thing is only a small part of what's coming.

Correctomundo!

What an amazing difference in attitudes and acceptance in this thread. It is interesting to see who is progressive and who is not.
This reminds me that on friday I was over at Frys huge electronic 2 square block store that now handles appliances. I was only there to buy a new ADSL filter for the studio. I was absently minded standing there wondering where to start looking for this needle in the haystack when something caught my attention on the TV in front of me.
IT WAS AN ARRANGER PLAYER, PLAYING AND SINGING ON THE TV THAT WAS BUILT INTO THE REFRIDGERATOR DOOR THAT WAS IN FRONT OF ME!
Is this what we are talking about here?
Bebop

I love the TV /fridge combo..you don't have to leave your seat to get another snack..

Just open the door..

Refrigerator door?

Cool! (literally!)

Was it Iced T...???

I think the main thing that gets my goat is the concentration by the R&D people on utterly NON-musical features. There is nothing (on the musical side) in these VIMA things, that isn't surpassed by a G70 or E80. You only have to look at the dearth of control buttons for MUSICAL functions (video don't count) to recognize where this thing's entire focus is on.

Now, you know I am the LAST guy to sit around and crow that Roland's OS and controls are the absolute best..! I just find it worrying that Roland are spending vast amounts of their obviously limited resources, putting out this 'fluff' product, while essential, day-to-day aspects of their OS need long-overdue correction.

The whole idea is to make the perfect arranger FIRST, and then graft this stuff on later. NOT put it on now, and who cares if the OS is flawed. After all, it's target consumer (you DID watch the video, didn't you? Look like any REAL arranger players you know?) isn't exactly too worried about the playing aspects, given the emphasis on the karaoke player features.

This is a gussied up karaoke player with an arranger tacked on. NOT a full featured arranger with karoake stuff tacked on, which is what most arrangers have been doing, lately. Look at the video, and the aspects that it emphasizes. FAR more emphasis on the video and karaoke features than anything much about the arranger. It shows fairly accurately where their heart and mind is.

Now, I'm not saying there isn't a market for something like this... I was just (apparently forlornly) hoping that more of you would recognize that it isn't the product for US...

Diki, do you know how long this site has been up? I saw it two years ago and it hasn't changed one bit. I haven't heard anything anywhere about it except on this site. Have you seen it in a store, on a webstore?

The answers are, NO. And you probably won't be seeing it any time soon. There's no real market for this "yuppie" karaoke machine. Those who can afford it don't want it and others, maybe like us, see no use for it.

But my purpose in posting this thread was to show how the future may change. Your or my definition of 'musician' or 'entertainer' may be something completely different than what the future holds.

I think this has been a good discussion. It has brought out some very interesting opinions and positions. I leave saying, don't close your mind to any possibility for the future. When I was a kid I never thought my Farfisa would turn out to be a $3600 arranger setup, did you. Hell, a B-3 was only $2400 dollars, with the Leslie.

ps - I still think this would be a great concept for Mikey Maestro to consider. He has the audience it would work with.

To be honest, there's not much on an arranger today that I couldn't have anticipated from my early days... I remember the 'rhythm' boxes, the very first appearance of 'auto' features in the late sixties or early seventies.

But, other than some lights underneath the keys (to guide you on your melody), I sure don't remember ANY audio-visual features... No karaoke players, no 'center cancel' vocal elimination, no synced-up audio/visual slide show...

I can only imagine just how much HARDER that generation of players would have laughed at this box of fluff.

Essentially, this is still a far east product (that probably isn't even taking the far east by storm) being desperately marketed to the west in the forlorn hope of at least making SOME sales back on their investment.. As you say, cassp, it has met with a resounding yawn over here...

I just guess there must be some kind of nurturing spirit out there, that wants to protect these poor, deformed orphans, no matter HOW poorly they work in our society. Me, I'm a little more Darwinian. Survival of WHAT WORKS. This doesn't.

Perhaps, in the 'future', society might change to where this IS a good product, filling a widely held need... I can only hope the earth is 6 ft. over my head by the time that happens...