I see little difference in whether your backing comes from you having prepared it in advance. and you play full two fisted keyboard over the top of it, or you play it from triggering the arranger with your left hand and play ONE fisted over the top of it..!

IN NEITHER of those scenarios are YOU playing everything that comes out. Your contribution is the stuff you play LIVE. Looked at this way, for all but the best arranger players, that's HALF of what you could be playing if you used SMFs...

Now, sure, you can re-harmonize, rearrange, change song structure, all on the fly with an arranger. But, let's be honest with each other... How many, other than the top few arranger players, actually HAVE the knowledge or skill to use chord substitution effectively? Darn few, I'd be prepared to say.

'Ah, but I can change anything I want in the middle of a song', sure you can, but you must be careful... Half the 'cheese' I've heard coming out of arrangers has come from some using this ability poorly, and making on the fly decisions I'm sure they've regretted later! In all fairness, there's only ONE thing the arranger can do that an SMF can't... Cover for YOUR mistakes! I'm sorry guys, but one of the things I hear a LOT of players with arrangers do is screw up the chords, or structure, get lost in the middle, miscount a section, whatever, and the arranger keeps patiently chugging along, making the best of what, in a sequence, would be a total train-wreck! Maybe this is why some refuse to countenance SMF's, in truth! Screw up a sequence, and you are toast!

But, OTOH, arranger SMF players now have Mark/Jump abilities, that allow song restructuring on the fly (used to be an arranger mode exclusive), the Roland's, at least, have their Song Cover abilities, to allow a complete re-voicing of the SMF (change a rock band into a jazz band, for instance), once again, formerly an arranger only ability, and dual sequencers or pretty instant SMF loading can give you the 'medley' ability that used to be another arranger exclusive.

Used carefully, most of what USED to be arranger mode's exclusives now CAN be done, at least a certain way, in SMF mode, and some of it can be improved (FINALLY, you can have bass-lines and other Parts that LEAD the chord changes, not just follow them!). But one thing the SMF gives you is the backbone of being able to play with others... The ability to play well with BOTH HANDS...

Particularly if you are learning on an arranger, or are just getting back into music after a long break, this MIGHT be a skill worth working on. You know, just in case you get an opportunity to play with something OTHER than a machine!

Arranger mode has it's charm, and skill-set, and done well is very effective. But be careful of dismissing the humble SMF. It has powers that many do not realize it could do now, and it DOES give you the opportunity to DOUBLE the live playing that you are actually playing (and trust me, the audience WILL notice that!), and practice up skills that will pay dividends if you ever sit in with a live band...

First of which will be the discipline to learn your tunes correctly... because a live band MIGHT hang around while you miscount a section or play something wrong, but you won't like those raised eyebrows as they do!

Diki.....in reality a Style file is a SMF file. There is nothing wrong with playing SMF songs of which Roland does it best IMO....I have done jobs with 90% SMF all night too & play over the top....it all depends they all have their strong points....just another tool to use.....so If you have on-board Styles/SMF/& Mp3's you pretty much cover all bases ONLY IF THE NAVAGATION between all these modes can be achieved SEPERATLY at the SAME TIME like on a MIDJAY module.

Exactly, Donny. As long as you can use the more modern tools for working with SMFs, particularly the Mark/Jump stuff, the line between the two systems gets blurrier and blurrier.

Somehow, mysteriously, a lot of 'arranger mode ONLY' players forget that they ARE playing SMFs, just really short, pretty dumb ones! It takes their CONSTANT input (my pet peeve!) to turn it into something that isn't grindingly repetitive (something you can achieve with an SMF with ease).

BOTH systems have their strong and weak points, but choosing ONE railroads you, no matter which one it is...

+1

of coarse playing an arranger keyboard live, there's nothing wrong with it.

But,There are people that use arranger keyboard in the studio. not making songs from scratch, but using styles to create a song/SMF/Backing Track etc..
with this method i'm very sensitive,
how can someone be so lazy to make a sequeance/SMF using preset styles?
I understand using styles for live performance, but in the studio environment
and thatn say "I recorded this" ??!!!!!

or when someone presses an "intro" button and pretends that it is him playing.

[This message has been edited by Vadim (edited 04-30-2008).]

Lucky the "Great Vengeance and furious anger" line is from the Movie "Pulp Fiction".

The rest of my post, considering your earlier inflammatory (in my view) post was quite restrained.

I took offense because you previously stated in no uncertain terms that using SMFs "strip you of your creativity", blanket statement or not (and it sure WAS a generalization) I am one of those who is "stripped of my creativity" I guess, as I use SMFs for 90-95% of my playing.

As someone who works very hard at what I do, and someone who uses SMF's VERY deliberately (for a LOT of reasons) I didn't appreciate and certainly didn't agree with what you said and what you went on to say.

I've read other threads recently, and come across other posts of yours and you've said more than once "someone said" this or "someone posted" that - which is fine, we don't all have the time to go back and find out who exactly posted what everytime, but when I mention a specific point, I (try to) remember who the original poster was, as it gives me some background as to why that poster said what he said if I have a strong disagreement (or agreement) with it. I feel it's just polite - but again, not necessary.

Nevertheless calling things a "blanket statement" doesn't rob people of the right to respond anyway they want - to the point being raised, particularly if they feel it affects them, which, in this case it CERTAINLY affects me.

Scroll up and you will read:

"It’s all about “ego,” isn’t it? I read and observe a lot (even when I’m entertaining) and one recurring thing I noticed is that when someone says something or writes something (here, there….anywhere), even if it’s a good idea someone else will feel they have to offer an opposing view or a “superior“ rebuttal to show that they are much smarter…even if they disagree with their OWN view! I’m not sure why this happens but it’s called “the ego takes charge.”

I do it too and I have to catch myself regularly or I’d be here forever posting my thoughts (I don’t write as well as you guys do so it goes slowly for me).

I got into Science of the Mind many years ago and this is what they teach you. How to run your life, your career, even your wife “more efficiently!” The point being that if you can override that ego, there’ll be room for positive info going in and out of the brain, such as the “exchange of musical ideas.”

Look up and you will see I quoted you as saying:

"Please don't preach to me. I've been entertaining on stage longer than many of you have been playing. I don't believe I got to where I am by not knowing what I'm doing. And I learned a long time ago, to have convictions and state them as I did here."

Well you're free to have convictions AND state them wherever you want, but that's REGARDLESS of how long you've been playing and entertaining, (and yes, I'm sure you've been playing much longer than me).

Yep, I can see your point, although one can get around it by making their own styles and playing their own intros...which is what I do.

That way, if I do a recording, it has my own stamp on it.

Do you make your own styles?

What keyboard are you using?

Ian

STYLE REPETATIVENESS is one of the biggest downfalls of playing an Arranger KB .....isn't this what the NEW Ketron AUDYA is trying to eliminate so that these continuances are somehow changed with the chord structure & variations & bass lines etc, as the song progresses?
If they successfully achieve this they could leave others in the dust unless other manufacturers are already on the ball doing just that. I for one am hoping for that.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 04-30-2008).]

Those are loops of live playing, just as now they are loops of MIDI. The repetitiveness will not change, just the means of producing it...

Whether the loop is four bars, or eight, or even sixteen (thank you, Korg!), the fill remains the same every time you use it. A dead giveaway, IMO (and no thank you to Korg for only the two and a break/Fill system!).

People will often notice the repetition in a fill more than the repetition in a loop...

True. I can't think of many country songs written in a minor key. But, two come to mind:
Kenny Roger's "Lady"
Delbert McClinton's "I Just Want To Love You"
I bet DonM can think of a few more.
Quite a few country songs utilize minor chords within the song, the most prominant numbered chord I run across would be a 2m (2nd chord in the scale, minored).
Eddie
Eddie