Over at Dirk Witte in the Netherlands there are currently 3 different types of Tyros 3 available for pre-order..

Tyros 3
Tyros 3XL
Tyros 3XXL
List

This could indicate that there might actually be a 76 key version... just add your own specualtions to this thread... Dirk Witte is one of the most renown Synth sellers in the Netherlands.

NEver mind this post, it might just be their speaker solutions for Tyros 3....

Stupid me, i started thinkg about 76 and ** key versions...

Bachus hang in there ....it wont be long before T3 or whatever they are gonna call it hits the bandwidth. The World awaits the next Yamaha 61 key Wonder Arranger

Actually i will not decide which one to buy untill i have tested them all

Wersi Abbacus
Korg Pa2X
Yamaha Tyros 3
Roland (g80)
Ketron Audya
Mediastation(if i can find it anywher to try out)

Currently i am leaning towards the wersi... as i really love to controll vst's from my board... but i'll give others a fair chance, as they are a backload of euro's cheeper

All i want is a keyboard with awesome styles, awesome sounds, 76 keys or more and the abbility to controll my vst's directly (not over midi) from my keyboard...

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 04-24-2008).]

I wonder what the latest status is on the new Roland totl arranger?? Are the rumours true that it will only have 61 keys just like the Tyros3? Please say it isn't so!!

And still no further word concerning the Audya either. You'd think if Ketron was in the final stages of completing the Audya that they would be more robust in posting some more audio and video demos and that you would be able to at least download an "english" version of the Audya manual. Maybe that will happen after Musikmesse 2009 perhaps? And then again maybe not. Oh well.. at least when Yamaha says that the Tyros3 will ship this Fall it will actually ship this Fall. The same thing cannot be said about the Audya though. At least from the way I've observed how Ketron has bungled the marketing of the Audya up until now anyway. Miracles still happen though so they may surprise us and indeed ship the Audya this Fall. You must realize though that the last day of Fall is December 20th, so it could ship December 20th and still be considered Fall. If they did though it means I wouldn't be able to see it 'yet' again at Musikmesse 2009? Shucks..

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike
We should get a report when the Pakefield Keyboard Festival finishes next Monday, as I know some SZ members are attending, (As also is the Audya) and so they will be able to directly compare it to all the other manufactures.
As far as I am aware it is still scheduled for general release in the summer in the UK and Europe.
There is also going to be a big launch at the Autumn Festival, so I would say the Tyros 3 is also on schedule. (Tyros 2 was launched at the Caister Autumn Keyboard Festival)

Bill

I'm a member of your club as well. I'm thinking 61, 76 and 88 keys

Well, Bill...

Since you are attending the Festivall, i am hoping to get a big update someday next week with your experiencess from the festivall... (smiles)

Boy.. wouldn't it be somethin' if one of the Big 3 or one of the lesser known keyboard manufacturers e.g. Ketron or GEM, etc., actually did make an 88 key totl arranger w/weighted keys? But not too heavy either in the key action or overall physical weight? I for one would sure give it some definite and serious consideration. Especially if the key action (even though weighted) would be light enough to allow playing other voices besides piano with relative ease. Most likely Yammie wouldn't do it cause we can't even get 'em to make a 76 key 'anything' in mid or high end as far as arrangers go. Korg actually made an 88 key mid-range arranger several years ago that was semi-weighted I believe, but haven't produced anything since. Roland has never done it either as far as I'm aware of but they may be open to the possibility in the future perhaps, since Roland and company are what I consider a visionary company wanting to stay on the cutting edge not only technology wise but with their customer's playing needs. Hopefully we'll see an 88 key fully weighted or semi-weighted totl arranger in the not too distant future.

Well, it's good to know that Ketron is showcasing the Audya in Europe as we speak Bill. And even though I won't buy a 61 key Tyros3 it will be interesting to see how the new Super Articulated Voice "2" architecture is implemented on the Tyros3. As many are aware, the Motif XS has the "expanded" articulation system which is suppose to be a step above the Tyros2 SA voices. But Yamaha in my opinion wasn't able to implement it very well on the XS for some odd reason. If the Tyros3 SAV2 is similar or identical to the Motif XS expanded articualtion system I'm afraid it may not be implemented on the Tyros3 very well either, and in which case people would have little reason to upgrade their T2's. If the Tyros3' new SAV2 is a step above the XS' SAV expanded system and is excellently implemented on the Tyros3 then it could very well be the defining sound realism achievement of 2008. I guess we'll find out one way or the other if that's true and perhaps at the Caister Autumn Keyboard Festival.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 04-24-2008).]

I'm thinking:

Tyros 3 = Tyros keyboard
Tyros 3XL = includes speakers & sub
Tyros 3XXL = includes speakers, sub, bag, pedals, headphones.

There's no chance of an 88 Tyros version - find me one person who will buy one. I don't know if there'll be a 76 key version, but if so, I doubt Yamaha would choose to tell just one dealer about it.

man are the "RUMORS" flying eh?

all in due time my friends......

And another thing:

Tyros 61 keys for £3700 and Tyros 88 keys for £3900. I no think so.

Haven't you all got it yet? Yamaha DON'T CARE ONE IOTA if you want a 76, and even less if you want an 88...

Go buy a PA2XPro, and save yourself the wait...

Your money means nothing to Yamaha. Spend it where it is appreciated!

Audya... sorry, but I predict a bugfest at first. This is a radical new technology, and you know what always happens on the first generation, don't you?

G80...? Someone (actually, everyone!) is asleep at the wheel at Roland. I have no idea if they have the personnel at Roland Arranger R&D to get anything radically different out the door, and the next G-series needs to be. It doesn't matter if it is 61 or 76, there is just such a chasm between the other big players (K&Y, primarily) and the Rolands, it's hard to see if they can compete.

Soundwise, there is MUCH to like, but the OS team have dozed off completely. They have a new OS for the E80. What does it add? Basic, barely useful mp3 playback. No markers, no transpose, no tempo changes. Whoop-te-do! They still have a sound second to none in the drums and piano/organ category. But the OS has actually got WORSE from the G1000 days in some critical areas. Nothing you can't work around (apart from the lack of Chord Sequencer), but NOT a good sign...

And still NO fix for a couple of really simple 'flag' problems, like ACC cutting off if you change chord recognition TYPES (go from Pianostyle to normal chord recognition, for instance) that should have been hotfixed LONG ago.

If you are waiting for a G80, I'd say take a good look at the G70 (if you haven't already). It IS a great 'player's' machine, but not a 'great' OMB tool. Or go get that PA2XPro, and save yourself either a LONG wait, or disappointment over another rushed to market Roland, that you'll never be sure they'll fix completely...

But forget about suggesting that I go get a Korg Despite me being unhappy AT Roland, I am still very happy WITH my Roland..! I just wish they'd finish it. So little left to do that I need to be happy, and they stumble just before the finish line.

Oh well...

Already bought the Korg Pa2xPro, thanks for the good advice

I'm glad you found the right instrument Steve...how is it working for you? You seem pretty content with it.

I can't get my hands on one to try...my local dealers won't carry them.

Ian

Ian I'm very content with the Pa2xPro. It's working out very well. The high points for me are 76 keys, songbook feature, vocal harmonizer, physical vertical sliders to make quick adjustments to voices on the fly. The low point lack of the multitude of 3rd party styles that are available for Yamaha.

I saw this posted on another site regarding Tyros3's Style Creator.

"The Style Creator will have an algorithm for creating more realistic guitar parts. The Tyros 3 will be smart enough to know that a D-chord is a different inversion than an A chord or E chord, for example. The user inputs chords and the T3 translates them to the correct notes and strings for a guitar (provided a guitar part is selected)".

Could be a rumour...or maybe not.

Ian

They have, have a look at the new Korg PA588.

Tyros 3

- 12.1 inch screen ( motorized )

- USB 2.0

- Slyders under the screen, not buttons
like on T2

- New Chip SuperArticulation 2

- Mp3 player

- will look more like the Tyros 1

That's all I got from a reliable source!

p.s. forget the 76 or 88 key version.

Hmmm, maybe motorized faders?

BS...I have been waiting a couple weeks and am told it may be another month before my order is filled..

I sell Yamaha and have to agree with the tendency for Yamaha to appeal to the home user. They assume (correctly) most people playing arrangers are playing chords with their left hand and do not need the extra real estate.

The T3 will be a glorified S900. I don't see Yamaha breaking out a huge jump in the evolution of the Arranger keyboard. I don't even see them doing as much as Korg or Roland has done by a long margin.

I see them having more styles,more SA sounds (or some new technology there) and an EASIER interface, Thats the way they went on the 400 series Clavinovas. Keep it simple. Thats Yamaha. They do sell a lot of arranger keyboards with that "mission statement".

They changed the look of their Clavinova line to make it look like there are LESS buttons not to intimidate the buyers. K I S S

Tyros has a support base that will buy it whether it has 15 extra keys or not. So why bother. I would not buy it if it had 76 keys because it is not as feature rich as the Korg. But a current Yamaha owner would buy another 61 key Tyros in a heartbeat.

Korg and Roland HAVE to appeal to those of us who want workstation like features, even if they are more complicated and have a huge learning curve. They know we are used to it.

Yamaha has always been the "Apple" of keyboards. Appeal to the simple even at the expense of pesky features,



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 04-25-2008).]

I'm not sure I get the same impression about Yamaha as you, Kingfrog...

To be honest, their OS has FAR more complexity and capability than Roland. There are many, many features that are hard to classify as anything but 'pro'.

Synced styles and SMF's (how many 'home' users use this?), detailed voice editing (not exactly KISS), complex rootless 'jazz' voicings (ditto), samplers (on the T2), and much, much more...

NONE of these exist in Roland's. Theirs, I believe, IS the best 'home' OS, KISS to the max! It drives me crazy seeing all the power in the PSR OS, while it is tied to a REAL 'home' keyboard, in sound (not very 'live') and construction. Heck, Roland's can't even store a User Tone... But Yamaha can

At the moment, I believe the Korg is the only TRUE arranger WS crossbreed. Sampler, User everything, 76 keys, 'live' sound, just about every bell and whistle there is (except Mega and SA voices).

But second in the depth of OS detail is Yamaha, no doubt. It doesn't SOUND like a 'live' keyboard, with a FAR more 'home', mastered and polished sound, but it has by FAR the more complicated and capable OS. Roland actually specialize in making style editing, creation and SMF editing EASY. These are FAR more complicated to do on a Yamaha...

Now if only I could tie the Yamaha OS to the Roland sounds... (but keep the editing stuff from the Roland!)

I toyed around yesterday with a roland V-synth and a Fantom G...........they had some awesome interfacing, if Roland can bring that to their next top of the bill arranger, they might have a jewel...

Thanks miden! I didn't realize Korg was in the process of making an 88 note real weighted hammer action Arranger!! I wasn't able to find any info on the Korg U.S.A. site but I found this info doing a Google search:

"Korg's new up and coming Pa588 88 note weighted hammer action Arranger details"

This should be real interesting! I have a few questions such as, how much the physical weight will be and how much polyphony it will have, etc? But from the info it looks like it will be an outstanding product. And apparently it will be out this Summer which will be a head start over the Audya or Yamaha's new flagship "61" key arranger.

This is exciting and I'm thrilled that Korg has taken on the 88 note Arranger challenge again. Competition is the main spark that flames the passion of ingenuity, creativity, and is the motive for invention. I'm glad two of the Big Three are following that particular course of action regarding the products they create. And the lesser known ones like Ketron as well.

I've basically given up on the idea of Yamaha changing their ways though. Sad, yes... but nevertheless true. I've already tried to convince Yammie until I was blue in the face. Sometimes you just have to leave them to their own devices and fend for themselves.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 04-26-2008).]

Not this current Yamaha owner! I've had my fill of "61" key arrangers. Never again if I can help it! In other words, if every arranger keyboard manufacturer in the known universe gave up making anything other than 61 key arrangers then I suppose I would have to give in and buy another 61 noter. But how I dread that thought and shudder at the mere idea of having to stoop sooooo low!! LOL

Best,
Mike

As is typical, the UK Korg site has more detail than the US.
http://www.korg.co.uk/products/professional_arranger/pa588/pa_pa588_specification.asp

Poly = 80, Weight = 51.5 lbs

There were some previous posts about how Korg has a way of better utilization of polyphony so 80 is not a problem. We'll have to see once it's released. Weight has yet to be confirmed.

You probably are right when it comes to the Roland. I did limited research on the G70 and decided the Yamaha would be a better choice for me. I think the Yamaha is like Verizon phones. The capabilities are there but Yamaha limits them somewhat in their quest to keep it simple.

I love some of the Yamaha sounds. It was a difficult choice to give them up in favor of pure W/S features. But I don't see myself using the keyboard primarily as an Arranger, I will use parts of styles and use my own playing as well

Which makes me wonder why this beast does not have the same specs as atleast the PA2X

It seems to be based on the PA-500.

51 lbs is a bit heavy (and that's without a roadcase)...but I suppose if you can lug around a G70 it wouldn't matter much.

Ian

Hmmm.... I realize Korg has a good method of Poly allocation but nonetheless 80 poly in todays standards is rather limited in my opinion. Yammie's PSR-S700 has 96 and it's at the low end of the mid-range scale. Also I was hoping that Korg would be able to make the Pa588 at possibly under 40 lbs. or thereabouts. I mean if Casio can turn them out at under 40 lbs. and in some cases almost half that much you would think Korg and the others could do the same!?!? Being a weighted hammer action does add some extra poundage to the Pa588 but you wouldn't think a whole lot i.e. maybe 5 to 7 extra lbs at most? FWIW, plastics and composites are getting stronger and lighter but maybe the space age stuff is still too expensive to be practical, I dunno. Nevertheless, 51 lbs. is an improvement over yesteryears ultra heavy keyboards so we should be thankful for that eh?

Best,
Mike

Don't under estimate the additional weight of weighted 88 keys. Especially those with graded hammer Action and wood keys. Easily adds pounds to the weight. not to mention a road worthy chassis which is usually steel.

The wifes RD700 weighs 81 lbs!

Hopefully she's not gigging five nights a week with that RD-700?

You're right though Kingfrog. If each individual key had a 3 oz. weight that would be 16 1/2 lbs total for 88 keys. If each individual key had a 2 oz. weight the total would be 11 lbs for 88 keys. You have to account for the spring mechanisms as well so it does add up. I'm not sure what the considered "normal range" of weight used in weighted keybeds for workstations or digital pianos is but I wouldn't think it would be over 3 oz. at best and most likely a lot less than 3 oz. and more like 1 to 2 oz. If it were only 1 oz. then the total would be just 5 1/2 lbs additional weight for 88 keys. The actual keys themselves are not made of wood on any workstation or digital piano that I'm aware of, rather, they are made of fine molded plastic materials and which as a result make them fairly light.

Best,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 04-26-2008).]

Is that the RD700 GX or SX you referring to?
I just watched the video demos WOW!!


http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.aspx?ParentId=87

Is that the RD700 GX or SX you referring to? Why would the weight be a deal breaker if this was your dream Piano...it seems to have it all for a Piano player.
I just watched the video demos WOW!!


http://www.rolandus.com/products/productlist.aspx?ParentId=87



[This message has been edited by John DiLeo (edited 04-27-2008).]

Yamaha's P85 digital piano is 25 lbs...it has an 88 key weighted, graded hammer action...AND it has speakers.

Casio's Previa PX500L has speakers, 88 weighted hammer action keys, AND arranger functions...it weighs only 27.5 lbs.

It should be possible for Korg to make a lighter 88 note arranger...perhaps they could make it without speakers...that would save some weight....but 51 lbs(without a road case, even) is far too heavy.

Ian

The 700 SX is the previous modell, the RD 700 GX is the new modell....

But somehow, i keep wondering what is happening to the Tyros 3...

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 04-27-2008).]

But aren't these supposed to be 'home' keyboards?

Why should portability be an issue at all..?

Of course not...what was I thinking?

Dang!

But wait! There's more!

Perhaps they meant..."don't leave 'home' without it"?

Ian

Ian how do the 2 model Pianos you mentioned stack up against the RD700GX? There must be a huge difference all around no?

What has this to do with the coming T3 ??

I,

Impuls your correct...it seems that we went astray again off topic. I for one am curious at what is up Yamaha's sleeve for the T3 arranger or what ever it will be called. I hope they stay pretty much in the classic arranger features design versus making it an all in one "Arrang-OKE" machine like some of the rest out there.

If I was a betting man, I would put my money on your statements, Kingfrog...I can't see Yamaha changing a winning formula for a "home" arranger...just enhancing it.

More SA voices and styles are what the users will be most happy with, and the OS system, which is already excellent, won't be changed very much, if at all, in my opinion.

Maybe we'll see an increase in polyphony and maybe a new main piano sound along with the other incremental changes.

Should be interesting.

Ian

Those rumors of a 'guitar mode' sound intriguing...

Sure yamaha has a winner for the home market..

But with a 76 key road ready version they also could enter the real pro market and eat a share from Korg's, ketron's and Rolands domain.

It can't be that expensive to develope a 76 version with the same electronics inside as the Tyros 3... And if they make it a pro modell with all options added from the start, they might even have a winner...

It just keeps me wondering thats all...

Personally i am curently thinking about changing to Wersi, because i can easilly add my Yamaha performancess to that Wersi, while having a much more open Arranger. Tough its in another price for those, so if T3 has a 76 key version for much less then a Wersi, i might be temnpted to stick with Yamaha..

I am currently aiming of moving away from my Tyros by the end of the year.. But i am doing extensive research now.

That's been my point all along...

The cost of tooling the S900 (or T2/3) up into a 76 form factor would be a tiny fraction of developing a whole new arranger, and would give them a crack at a market they have NO presence in at the moment...

My marketing skills may be minor, but that one always struck me as a no-brainer... If you see a market that IS making money for other companies, and it costs so little to compete in it, why not attack it? Even if you only make a little money in there, it's money far in excess of the development costs, and you are weakening your competitors, and opening a new customer base.

Go figure...

Correctomundo.

If anyone is willing to put a deposit or major payment I will make sure to send the first T3s to them

You could be the first one on the block with the T3

Don’t forget virtually all mainstream arrangers are made on a production line, and therefore to make a larger version (76 notes) would require modifying the existing line (Reducing capacity of their smaller 61 note arrangers) or building a complete new line for the larger model, which is very expensive and time consuming. (The accountants will want a 99.9% guarantee that enough sales can be made to make a profit after all the setup costs)
Roland and Korg etc already have lines for each version, so cost (The amount of sales required to make a profit) is much cheaper then having to build a line from scratch.
Hope this helps to clarify matters

Bill

Good post, Bill...it makes perfect sense.

Ian

I saw this interesting Tyros 3 thread....
http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=10833.msg98671#msg98671

Yamaha did some 76 models in the past, espescially the 76 key Motif ain't that long ago...

But then since Yamaha probably has only 1 keyboard production line it is build to switch between the current models. I don't think their costs will be that high. And both you an d me and Mister yamaha know that they can sell a few thousand of these worldwide...

Tough i even would not be surprised if much of the finall assembly gets done by hand....

I worked on installing these types of systems for years, and while it may seem simple to do for the layman, I can assure you it is not, and neither is it cheap.
The Motif ranges are separate lines.
Yamaha have always said that their research indicates that there is not enough demand for a Yamaha 76 note arranger, and until you can convince the accountants otherwise, it isn’t gong happen.
Regards

Bill

Makes you wonder why would someone spend almost $$4000 to buy over the same keyboard they already have with a few more sounds and styles. Which by the way can and should be done by software upgrade.

I guess Yamaha know they can fool most of their customers all of the time.

Yamaha are wise enough not to mess with a winning formula...that's pretty simple for all but the terminally dumb to understand.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-29-2008).]

On a side note....

Seems like roland has everything needed to make an arranger keyboard that makes the new Tyros 3 bite the dust...

They have :

Awesome synthesizer sounds and the best onboard sequenser in the phantom G-series..great sample player..

Awesome Organ sounds, huge polypgony, articulation voices and beautifull styles (including real drums and real tracks)in their AT900 organs

The best sounding piano from their SX700 stage piano.

Awesome keys with great feeling.

The most awesome real time solo synth with breathtaking possibilities in the V-synth..

Realintuitive interfaces (Fantom-g V-synth AT900)

If they can cramp all of these algorythmes intoo one 76 keys keyboard with their lovely 800x640 touchscreen, it will be a hell of an arranger..........


But then with the typicall roland keyboards they allways feel like a trade off, with minimalised options to save all that beautifull stuff...Expecting something like this from Roland is the same as expecting it from Yamaha..

I agree...maybe the new G-series will be different.

Ian

I've been a loyal Yamaha arranger customer for close to twenty years. If the T3 does not have greatly improved drums and bass, I will (sadly) be moving. I spent two hours at GC and was very impressed with the overall Korg sound...

There seems to be plenty of home players who want this...the T2 was a moderate upgrade from the T1, yet it sold exceptionally well...what's wrong with knowing your target market very well?

Your statement seems to suggest that Yamaha customers are "fools"...not a nice thing to imply.

By the way, genesys what little gem of an instrument are you playing these days?

Ian the Curious

From Yamaha’s behavior with arrangers Yamaha thinks so.

I guess “who the cap fit let them where it”

BTW still playing the Genesys.
An example of a keyboard that could last for a long while.

I disagree...and there are a great many happy Yamaha users that would disagree with you as well.

I do respect your opinion, even though it is clearly wrong.

You use a Genesys?

How nice of them to name a keyboard after you.

Ian

Wrong again, the keyboard came before me.
You just can not seem to get anything right can you?


BTW: I did not call Yamaha customers "fools", I was only commenting on the way Yamaha views and treats its customers/market where even you and countless others are in agreement.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 04-29-2008).]

Wow! My mistake...I thought you were so special, they named the keyboard after you.

Would you say it is comparable to more modern instruments like the Korg PA2XPRO and the Yamaha Tyros2?

Ian

Most of us "in the know" agree that Yamaha does nothing different than the other keyboard manufacturers...they are all in the business to make a profit, and they all do what THEY think is right for the company.

Simple, for the rest of us...why so difficult for you?

Ian

When Yamaha essentially thumbs its nose at a broad segment of its fan base can you not see why it would tick a large portion of them off Ian?? Remember the 76 key poll?? Half wanted 76 keys and you may be surprised by the fact that the other half i.e. those who opted for 61 keys, when presented with a professional 76 key 'option' would go for the 76 "professional" version instead of the 61 even though it may cost a few hundred extra. Not all the 61 key players are grandpas with bad backs you know. And if they have the money to buy a $4,000 61 key arranger i.e. T2, etc., they will also have the money to buy a $4,500 76 key model. And even though you pay extra you also "get extra" PRO features as well.

Many of those who 'gig' with their arrangers would also be inclined to purchase a PRO level arranger as well when you consider the PRO version would most likely have a 'real' Sampler and other PRO features that are especially suited for live use. Unless of course Yamaha chose to skimp on PRO features if ever they were (God FORBID!!!, right? ) to make a 76 key high end arranger again.

Yeah, it simple for us to understand Yamaha's formula all right Ian. Their bottom line is all they care about in my opinion i.e. = making money hand over fist. I have no problem with the money part because like you said businesses are in business to make money. The problem is when a company shuns part of their customer base and/or potential customers and would rather play it safe and count their money instead of meeting the "demand" of a relatively large portion of their customer and non-customer i.e. (potential customers) playing needs i.e. something i.e. (a high end arranger no less ) with more than 61 keys on it.

Best,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 04-29-2008).]

Well, obviously not Michael...the rest of us seem to understand, but you are clearly not catching the drift...how much explaining do you need?

We have tried to make it clear, but you're missing the point.

This has been hashed and re-hashed over and over, ad nauseum...to the chagrin of many of us who are much more aware of what's happening than you.

Why not stop wasting our time with this re-fried bowl of beans...we've heard it ALL before.

I know how you'll respond to this post...it will be just another tirade of Yamaha bashing and circular hooey...is that why you post here, Mick?

Is there nothing else in your repetoire that you can drag out and strut for the rest of us?

I'll get the poop scoop ready.

Have a nice day.

Ian

Groundhog Day all over.

Plenty of poop from ALL sides here.

But Ian... if Yamaha DO make an effort to make the bass and drums more up to the rest of the Korg and Roland standards (probably the MAIN request from current T2 users for a feature change), expect to see a LARGE jump in the number of people that disagree with Yamaha's position.

The poll showed that perhaps a majority of those using 76's were not happy with the overall sound of the T2 anyway, so adding a 76 might not change their minds. But if Yamaha grow a pair, and give us an arranger that sounds a bit more live, this may very well change...

BTW, does anyone think that Roland E50's and E60's go down a completely separate line..? Identical machines other than the case and keybed..? Surely someone as sophisticated as Yamaha can figure it out? If only two components change in an assembly line, you don't need two lines. Let us also not for one minute think that Yamaha's lines are working at 100% capacity. It should not bring the line to a grinding halt to add the perhaps 15% extra workflow to the line for the smaller production numbers that a 76 would expect to sell.

There are few PRACTICAL reasons for Yamaha's choice, just philosophical ones. They certainly don't get their market research done by the people that do it for Korg and Roland, Ketron and Wersi! Market research is the art of asking questions in a way that you get the answers you actually WANT...! One would imagine that if Yamaha just poll people that use Yamaha's, OF COURSE they are going to get overwhelming numbers in favor of 61's. That's all they make! Those that would like a 76 have already gone somewhere else...

(Sound of a radio alarm clock going off to 'I got You, Babe')

Groundhog Day AGAIN...?

The Genesys is not in the same class as the PA2x pro. I would only imagine. I have never played the PA2x pro but just based on the times those keyboards were made one would think that the PA2x is in a different class.

Having said that, the Genesys is the closest thing to the PA2x in terms of features.
I don’t want to go in to more discussion on the Genesys because it is OT and because you would probably get it wrong the same way you are on the wrong side of the Yamaha 76 key arranger discussion.

Diki,

If the little thread that I initiated about who gigs with their arranger is any indication...the vast majority on SZ are pros.

Yamaha's target market for the Tyros is "home", although some adroit individuals do take advantage of it for "pro" jobs.

Things will not change until Yamaha feels it is in their best interest.

Trying to poke holes in their agenda ain't going to change anything...ONLY if the 76 note "home" arranger market shows some realistic promise, will they make one...so far...according to their market research(and believe me, they are thorough)the market can't be showing much hope.

Perhaps if the Korg arranger shows decent activity (it's still too new to tell) then maybe things will change.

The T3 will be whatever it is...it's not going to change very much at this point...so we will have to wait and see just how well it is received in it's intended market.

Ian

Gang... OK, I think one other LARGE issue is: Yamaha PRO division is telling Arranger division (comes from non-PRO division) NO WAY YOU GET anything to blow away some of our business!

Already the PRO synth customers are asking why does my PRO board not have the same or better sounding SA voices as the T2???
Turf wars my friends!

Think about it, does it makes sense?

If they offer a killer true PRO arranger in 76 or 88, maybe some stage gigging band folks would get it instead of a Motif etc.

They are the same company, but each division has profits goals to make or someone's job (s) go away!

That's my thinking on it.

Maybe the other arranger company's don't have that level of competition amoust themselves? (Roland, Korg) because the PRO guys don't see the threat to their busness area.

Yamaha could with there rsources build a super Tyros T5 that would be 61, or 76, or 88 with ALL PRO features in the arranger end and the synth end....if they wanted to.

Lee

Nah, buddy...I'm right...you can't convince me any differently...but you have convinced me that you are wrong...BUT...I still think you're a nice guy just the same.

Ian

Exactly Ian....good post and so true.
If anyone thinks Yamaha aint doing their homework you are very mistaken.....little changes are common when it remains in the "Tyros family" line each release.
When we see a "Totally new series Model" comes out in years to come only then we will see major changes if at all.I feel at this time we are in an Arranger KB "LULL"....& if you look back a few years of releases with all models big strides have been made. Amazing things are being done with arrangers so dont regress or forget how far we've come to this point & enjoy what we have as more will follow in the near future.

DP the Optimist

Once again, the assumption that ONLY Yamaha could POSSIBLY be right, and a dizzying spin to justify it...

Do Korg or Roland 'pro' arrangers get their WS divisions in a tizzy? Do either of them forbid a 76, and force them to build 'home' quality arrangers?

The Big 3 go pretty much head to head in WS sales and competition for features the users of WS's want. But, apparently, Yamaha are the only ones SO insecure about their WS sales that they forbid the arranger division to make something that might offer a choice to a potential customer?

I doubt that...

I just believe Yamaha have chosen to only compete in one market after their ONE attempt to penetrate the 'pro' market the first time was such an abject failure. This was a failure to build the correct product for the market, NOT a failure in the market itself... IMO

It still exists... other companies base their entire strategy around this market, rather than the toy market (which is where you find the majority of Yamaha arrangers sold - toy departments in Wal-Marts and department stores). The truth is that none of the other arranger makers in the Big 3 make toys as well as arrangers (or, at least, a LOT less). Yamaha have their 'comfort zone', and straying outside it makes them very uncomfortable.

That's their decision, but it certainly, as Roland and Korg PROVE, does not disprove the existence of the market, nor it's profitability. Of course, it's a shrinking profitability, but with the global economy the way it is, I doubt Yamaha themselves will equal the sales of the T2 with the T3... Especially as how close the S900 comes to it's capabilities, at over $2000 less in price.

But anyway, whatever happened to good old fashioned capitalism? Whatever happened to 'kill the competition, and winner take all'? Whatever happened to the days when a company would make a product at a small loss, even, just to make a competitor go out of business?

As little as Yamaha would need to do to tool up a low production run of 76 S900's (that would put the Roland E60 under serious stress) and 76 T2/3's (which would give the G70 and PA2XPro some tight times), it just strikes me they are losing an opportunity to corner the ENTIRE arranger market, not just the 'home' one...

(Radio plays Sonny and Cher's "I Got You, Babe")

Okay, campers, rise and shine,
and don't forget your booties
because it's COOOLD out there
today!

It's cold out there everyday.
What is this— Miami Beach?

Diki... right on!
It's political... meanwhile we don't get what we want...
Lee

Could be a bit of divisional rivalry going on Lee...I think in a company as large and diverse as Yamaha, that would be expected.

Roland make a killer 76 note arranger, the G70, that many here on SZ consider a "pro" instrument, but it's sales are very slow in comparison to their Fantom series, at least according to my dealer contacts.

Korg arrangers aren't doing much better against their synth/workstaion counterparts...although the jury is still out on the PA2XPRO.

It's a strange market.

Only one that seems to pull it off with aplomb is Yamaha...why?

They sell a lot of arrangers because they are marketed to home users...there's no confusion about the intended buyer...unlike Korg and Roland who seem to be trying to convince the pros that their arrangers are "pro" and the home users that the instruments are for "home"...they are trying to please both, and are creating a sense of doubt about to whom (and for what) these instruments are really intended.

I don’t know what the key to success is, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.

Ian

How do we know that Yamaha is not planning a 76 note arranger based on the S900?

Perhaps the next S-series will include a 76 note instrument?

OR...maybe the T4 will have a 76 note FSX keybed?

It's all possible, and highly probable if the marketing mavens feel it will be in the company's best interest.

IF they do...I believe they will continue to be marketed as "home" keyboards...not "pro".

As I said in my previous post...there will be no confusion about the intended buyer.


Ian

Because you told us, Ian! With great authority, and hints of 'insider knowledge'

I think we are making FAR too much out of the 'home' and 'pro' market issue. The majority of people that buy WS's are not 'pros' either. And the vast majority of OMB's that use arrangers ARE 'pros', no matter WHAT arranger they use.

The main difference, IMO, is that the WS market does not go as far downscale as the arranger market. Yamaha, Casio, even Roland arrangers have models that are little more than 'toys'. Consequently, these divisions get run by people that are comfortable in that market (maybe differently in Roland's case) but despite the fact that they make very 'pro' keyboards in certain aspects, especially at the high end of the line, those divisions are being run by managers that think 'toy' first, and have little knowledge or respect for the high end of their own product line.

WS lines, OTOH, don't go down NEARLY that far... Your bottom of the line WS is still quite a complex beast, not that far removed from it's MOTL cousins. And the divisions get run by managers that think about the TOTL first, BOTL second... (IMO)

I simply feel Yamaha have the tragedy of matching a high end 'pro' arranger OS with a low-end 'home' sound and build/size, and Roland have the tragedy of matching a 'pro' high end build/size and sound with a VERY 'home' OS.

BOTH companies have serious identity problems, but at least Yamaha's problem does NOT get in the way of sales! I don't think the 'divisional rivalry' theory works, because, if it were true, you would see Yamaha's arranger division holding on MUCH tighter to their SA technology and arranger aspects, both of which have been purloined by the MotifXS line.

My prediction? We probably WON'T see the fabled 76 S900. But we WILL see the arranger paradigm make more and more inroads to the Motif line, as these loop-station WSs need more friendly control systems than they do now...

Sonically, they are already what most T2 users are asking for (at least the OMB 'pro' ones), better in most sound categories than the T2, and they only have to add the ability to set the loops up in an Intro/Var/Fill/Ending structure, rather than the DJ-like 'cue up the next loop' system they have now, and the Tyros market (and S900, if a lower end model is produced, a sort of super MM6 thing) will be under serious stress.

When this happens, I see a radical move towards the BOTL, as MOTL and TOTL users head over to the WS line... If Yamaha Arranger won't give them what they want, they'll get it SOMEWHERE...

The Amazing Kreskin predicts

Oh come on, Diki...you know what I meant...the next S-series, not this one...gee, I gotta explain everything.

I can't predict what Yamaha will do in two or three years time...I'm not THAT good.

I really feel Korg and Roland are using the wrong approach, but that already looks to be substantiated with the dismal G70 sales....maybe the PA2XPRO will do better, but I can't see it happening.

They are trying to convince two different types of buyers...and failing.

Too bad...so sad.

Ian

PS...I feel the T3 will do very well...lots of T1 owners that resisted the T2 will move up, as well as some S900 owners and perhaps some Roland users wanting a more portable and better sounding arranger.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-29-2008).]

Hate to say it BUT we could be headed for a ARRANGOKE KB in the near future

Anything with an MP3 player and vocal canceler already IS, Donny

The trick is, just like One Finger Chords, you don't HAVE to use it...

And Ian, sorry! But I catch so much flack for ASSuming things, I guess I just try to reply to EXACTLY what is written

What I want to know is, Ian, why is the market any different now from ten years ago? Basically, the same people are using arrangers now, that used them back in the G1000's day, and NO-ONE is accusing that of being a failure...

The only thing I see much different is the appalling jump in prices, as dubiously useful features get tacked onto what used to be a thriving market. NONE of us needed a vocal harmonizer ten years ago, none of us needed MP3 players, samplers, motorized screens (what's up with that? - just one more thing to go wrong!), dual mike inputs...

But all of these things have added considerably to the cost of modern TOTL arrangers, and their complexity, and in all fairness, aren't generally the things the 'home' user uses, anyway. Most of them buy an arranger to PLAY, not have it play FOR them!

Maybe we are just pricing the TOTLs out of many's reach?

Well, my friend, I did write, "Perhaps the next S-series will include a 76 note instrument?"

But that's okay...apology accepted.

Anyway, the "pro" arranger market is competing against other things...especially the DJ...and Karaoke to name only two...even I-pod dances are becoming popular.

But this is not an issue if it's a home keyboard.

A home keyboard is a hobby.

Yep, some arranger prices are up, but actually the S900 is less expensive than the 3K when it was new and has more features...perhaps the Tyros3 will be less...surely it should be around the same price as the T2.

I don't like the tacked on stuff any more than you, but the competition sets the bar...and if it's a home keyboard...it's probably going to be stuff that will be liked and even used.

C'est la vie.

Ian







[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-29-2008).]

MAybe yamaha has another option...

They could boost a new topmodel in their YPG series mobile piano's (yes they allso have Aranger feautures) with comparable feautures to S900/Tyros3...

I am also wondering that the New Tyros 3 or what ever it will be called will also have proprietary NEW STYLE formats that conform to New Voice features that will NOT be able to be played on previous Yamaha models or converted for other KB's also.
This is a possiblity.

Yeah... Perhaps Yamaha are getting fed up of being the engine that drives some of their competitors sales...

If you COULDN'T play Yamaha styles on these keyboards, would they still be as popular?

since yamaha are printing "DIGITAL WORKSTATION" on TYROS series,
that means TYROS 3 will be able to photo copy paper, print pictures, take photos, browse the web, play games....