The NAMM Show starts next Thursday for the retail and wholesale music industry. Many of you still ask if it's open to the public and it's not. In fact, last year,and even more so this year, all badged entry must be accompanied with a drivers license or other picture ID. The show is for the manufactures to show their stuff and for store buyers to purchase for the new year. Unfortunately for owners like myself, the show has become less for buying and more for just seing and touching. If this is the intention, I'm for having the public come in at least the last day and getting to see the products, much like the Automobile industry does. I personaly have become tired of fighting the crowds of people who are not affiliated with a store or manufacturer and prefer the old days when the show was a lot smaller.

The sad issue for me this year is that there will not be a Ketron booth, and as I've seen on the NAMM website, there will also not be a Generalmusic booth. When lesser known arranger keyboards choose not to show their stuff, it often doesn't help stores decide to sell these lesser known brands. I hope this doesn't hurt Ketron and GEM in their efforts.

I had an email from Ted Kraus at CMC Distributors, the Ketron Distributor here in the USA and he informs me that he personally might attend the show but there would be no keyboards on display.

This will be my 39th NAMM show and I too will only attend one day this year.
I don't expect much in the world of new products because of the economy, but maybe a few good new things will surprise us.
In the past years I've enjoyed reporting to you all everything I've seen and my initial impressions. This year, I will only be going on the last day, Sunday, so if I see anything cool, I will report then.


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

George,
As I expected...and not enough of the dealers come to learn the products, features etc.

With the exception of you and Frank (and maybe a few others) most dealers do NOT KNOW CRAP about the products and can not demo them either. And don't even stock them.

Maybe NAMM should change to a open event so we can go to find out DIRECTLY from the manufacturers. I would expect if that ever happened there would NOT be any selling to the public. But you guys could buy.

There is so much more the US could do for promotion of music (like Europe).

Lee

Thanks George:

Please keep us posted about things you saw that KB People (especially Arrangers) would want to know about.

Best,

Dave Rice
http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/DaveRice

Not even worth going if they HAD a public open day, IMO.

If the arranger manufacturers aren't there, what is there to put hands on, anyway?

T3's already out, probably won't be an S900 replacement for a year or so, Roland are unlikely to have anything new (GW-8 is already out), Ketron are a no show, Korg are unlikely to have anything new after the PA2X OS2 is already out. Wersi and MS... who cares?

What's left? A new EXR, or Casio budget arranger..? Yawn.

Attendance at NAMM, both vendor AND dealer, is likely to reflect what few here want to acknowledge... 2009 is likely to be one of the worst years economically since the Great Depression.

Better start to REALLY dig into the manual of what you already have!

George,

I must say I'm disapointed that Ketron will not be there, there is a thirst for more knowledge re the Audya, and I think they do themselves a diservice by not being there at the premiere event. Also being an Aussie I would love to go to NAMM, as I'm sure a lot of other international travellers would also, so why NAMM, doesn't have a public day or days is beyond belief, i mean think of the economy, maybe manufacturers would be more happy to buy space there if the public were involved along with the retailers etc.

damm namm shame if you ask me

That thirst for Audya knowledge is quickly slaked by awareness of the price...

This will be my first NAMM, and I was pretty excited about seeing the Audya, and talking to some representatives from Italy.

Yes it is a bit sad Frank, I know I for one (and everyone else on the SZ!!) would have appreciated your opinion on it, but in my view, I think it underscores Ketrons perceived and possibly intended "serious" market.

I don't think they have missed ONE music expo/show in Europe-UK with the Audya.

Now its in production, I think the US will be left to its "own devices" when it comes to promotion and sales.

Same applies in Oz too, not that we get any decent music show of ANY kind.

Dennis

Diki.., this is one of the those Audya FACT moments Perhaps FACT has been spreading....

In all seriousness though.., I think Ketron cleary shows they have very little interest in the US market. Yes.., these things are going to be shown all over the UK.., but once again Ketron is giving the US the finger IMO.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-08-2009).]

Ketron doesn't need to attend any more conferences/expos,

i mean... they're like Apple-MAC,
they are HUGE, so popular already...

right? :-)

What is happening at Ketron, surely the US Market is huge, as far as price concerned I still believe that the price will be set as to what each individual market can get, so I do not have the Aus price on the Audya yet, and neither does the dealer here at Gospel in Sydney, still may be a sweet surprise, I will remain positive on that one. Now there used to be a music expo in Melb Aust once, but for some reason it all stopped, please start them again, users need to be able to get thier hands on gear to assess the suitability for use etc.

As far as I am concered in the US...Wersi and Ketron are in the same boat ( by choice) They say forget the US...I say Fine, stay in Europe.

It's obvious they don't need us, they are making plenty of $$ in non-US soil, so we don't need them.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

It's a shane, because there is a few folks that do support them here..but not the MFG.
If that ever changes...new ball game.

Lee

Digging into the manual from a Mac user is quite the feat!!! I'm KIDDING....


Got to agree here though. No one from our store is going this year. I went to Summer NAMM in Nashville. I actually enjoyed it more then Anaheim being smaller and not in LA and less "Hip Hop Industry" oriented.

But NAMM is not a not exactly a great place for hands on demos especially on new gear. The Manufacturer Rooms are always crowded with few Reps and in Nashville they only had one of every keyboard. I actually enjoyed seeing the unusual stuff more and there is some way out there stuff like a plastic thingy one can put on their hand and press down on a guitar so the blind can play a guitar chord. The "Amp on a Strap" was interesting. The fold up stool/guitar stand. (Sold a ton of them for the holidays)



Better off waiting for the reviews from real users and reviewers. We aren't not seeing enough new on the horizon to make the trip.

I dont think the US is a good market to sell european products with the current vallue of the dollar...


Ketron knows their Audia will be to expensive in the US to make any money...

Sop they solely concentrate on teh huge european arranger market... thats where most arranger money is anyway

Even when the US $ was fine...Wersi and Ketron were no shows here.

Meaning the MFG did not really care or support the products very well.

That's OK, there are plenty of other choices.

Lee

I guess the question is, what CAN be done to encourage the acceptance and spread of arranger use in North America to the scale that obviously exists in Europe? Just WHY is North America lagging behind?

I'm doing my part!

I demo the PSR900 to everyone who even hints at buying recording gear, or a workstation.

I can say without doubt PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW they even exist with regard to the realiam and POWER of them . EVERY single person I demoed was blown away by the abilities, voices and feature set I have converted some workstation users or at least am doing my part to killing the "toy" myth on these small speaker filled keyboards.

Haven't broken the local OMB musicians though. They still prefer 88 key WS or pianos with CDs or sequencers. The older folks who play part time in more non conventional venues like Lodges and Retirement communities are buying them. A handful of them already have CVP Clavinovas at home.

Keep up the good work then, Kingfrog! My own take on this is that North America seems to be hung up on guitars. Any place that has a solo performer usually seems to have a guy with a guitar and a lsptop. I have no explanation for this, but it's what I see all the time.

Other than legacy music, oldies, all that stuff, arranger manufacturers have mostly ignored contemporary US music. This is OK in Europe, which has a VERY strong tradition of sing-along music, schlager and traditional favorites. But in America, other than clubs that cater to the, let's just say more 'mature' crowd , the music is very contemporary, whether urban - hiphop, rap & modern R&B, or contemporary rock - emo, alternative, that kind of thing.

This is, IMO, why the arranger is not pre-eminent over here. The manufacturers, with their sales base already well established in Europe, seem unwilling to invest the considerable amount of money and time it would take to develop these modern styles (and the nature of modern music is that it changes MUCH faster than legacy styles).

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the technology, simply that the content has not been 'Americanized' except for older styles - classic R&B, country and western, classic rock, jazz, Motown, that sort of thing.

It's a Catch-22... They won't make the content until there are enough sales to warrant it, and there won't be much in the way of sales until the content is created...

What's a boy to do..?

Then it would seem that the arranger market in the U.S. already has one foot in the grave. Sad.

AH,
Then maybe the home organ will come back????
Wish I still had my Yamaha HS-8T!

Lee

wrong.
is not that ketron and others ( me included) have just a little interest to sell in the USA. This big problem have the BIG too, like the Roland....
USA market is totally down and musician start to change view of the keyboards.
This are NOT my words but from Roland: http://www.sambenedettoggi.it/2008/12/10/65099/roland-europe-cassa-integrazione-per-44-lavoratori/

ask someone there to translate the last part and then you have understand all.
Then add this global recession...
Do you know also that GEM is closed from December 22?

Is really hard time and is also the time to start to offer some innovation...

Last part translated.

"Roland Europe reiterated at today's meeting that the reasons for this request is attributable to a continued and consolidated market crisis of reference that shows a drastic decline in sales in the U.S. market, as well as for changes in the musical tastes of customers, including because of low competitiveness of Made in Italy in terms of prices".

Do you mean, "Closed for the Holidays?"

Or closed for good like, "Gone Out Of Business?"



-mike

Kingfrog can translate this too: http://prcmarignano.blogspot.com/2008/12/generalmusic-non-lasciamoli-soli.html
http://ilrestodelcarlino.ilsole24ore.com...ps_rimini.shtml

Pity, because they was my good friends too..

IF Diki is still waiting for the TOTL new Roland arranger..I think have to waiting really many years now...
How Frankfurt messe statistics, the arranger keyboards are less than the 2% of the whole keyboards market.

For sure you will laugh now, but the true new market where give the money now, is only the Oriental and Russia country. ( I can say that because we have the right orders only from this country)

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 01-12-2009).]

Which translated from Corporatespeak says 'We blew it. We were too lazy to make products that appealed to younger players, and we bloated our profits on the backs of the elderly arranger users that had no use for WS's, and now the chickens are coming home to roost..."

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-12-2009).]

Translation into english as follows:

The Generalmusic of San Giovanni in Marignano, with two other locations in Italy, closes and dismisses its 75 employees.

The direction of the company that, initially, had applied for layoffs, he decided to use the arrangement and to rely on the bankruptcy court.
This means dismissal for 75 employees .. Already workers had not received his salary for November and the thirteenth.
Trade unions and UILM FIOM meet the direction of Generalmusic January 7.

I thought something was up with GEM because they have been "out of the picture" for quite a while now, as well as their no shows at recent trade shows. They let go our own Dave McMahon a couple of years ago or so and I had a gut reaction back then that they might not be around much longer. It's sad in a way because it eliminates one of the competition and having more competition is always good for the consumer.

All the best,
Mike

Dom... no, I am pretty happy with what I have, and expect to remain that way for a long time

I kept my G1000 for about ten years, so I am less than halfway through my expected lifespan on the G70.

But maybe in another six or seven years, you will be able to get the MS to sound as good as my G70 OOTB (in other words, without me spending months - or years - of work and a fortune in VSTi's) does now.

Diki.., the only arranger company in my opinion that's even showing the slightest interest in catering to the younger arranger player is Korg. Korg's approach is right on in that they give the arranger player all the tools you need, but go further and do a good job at integrating the synth/workstation along with the arranger.

The MS is also another good example... Concept itself is great..., styles are another story... However, Dom has even voiced his lack of interest in the US market.

I'm not shocked about GEM. When was the last time we really heard about anything from them??? I'm also not shocked in the least about Roland's position as well considering Roland US seems to go OUT OF THEIR WAY to show their lack of interest in the arranger department.

Thankfully Korg and Yamaha are still hangin in there with us.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-12-2009).]

Yes, i know that you can change one keyboard only after 10 years...who know why?..lol

the MS do NOt have to shown HOW to sounds as good as....because will sounds much better as... ( or you dubit of the ASIO/VST/GIGA quality?)
the MS have to shown ONLY HOW is working and if is able to running the all sounds/engines that they want, in the most simple and fast way: press one key and play! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlADLhdqffE
All in realtime and multitask!

I buy also the new Roland G-61 for make some test and hear the sounds...
Live mode is really have really a nice features BUT when you press the STUDIO mode, just for play one song ( wav or midifile) is not possible anymore to use the LIVE setting but only the one sound of the SEQ track selected...
Who want I can trade this keyb for only 1000 USD..I have enough...

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 01-12-2009).]

All future tense, dom... 'Will' sound as good.

I (and I think just about everyone here, given your sales to mostly non-European and American countries) want something that 'DOES' sound as good (if not better, at that price!).

The reason I keep things as long as I do is because I chose wisely in the first place, then I rely on my FINGERS to improve how I play, not on technology

I already have a good WS (my K2500S), and I already have a decent VSTi setup for the studio and home. All I need is ONE great arranger that does what it should (sound great and have great styles) the day I buy it. Anything I can add to that afterwards is wonderful, but to HAVE to do all that JUST to sound acceptable is not what I'm looking for.

And please don't kid yourself or us, Dom... if the MS did what most arranger players want it to do, and was affordable, you would be #1 worldwide. You are not. Are we ALL wrong, or could it possibly be you? Give us what we want (rather than what you think we OUGHT to be using) and we'll beat a path to your door.

Give us a VSTi based WS with half baked styles and sounds and arranger features OOTB, and we won't (or rather, haven't)...

"Give us what we want (rather than what you think we OUGHT to be using) and we'll beat a path to your door".

See the US Auto industry for an example.


The way I see it Americans are simply not aware of how good Arrangers are for professional use. I'm 54 been in the music performance industry professionally since 1992. Been playing since the early 70's and writing songs. I saw my FIRST arranger after I retried in 2006, moved the SC, shopped for a Yamaha Baby Grand for the wife. Was hired to work PT and sat in front of a Clavinova, I had never realized th technoliogy was available. I had Triton,DX7s, Proteus,Roland, Alesis keyboards. Bought them at Guitar Centers and some local music stores in San Diego,Las Vegas....I never ran across an arranger. Probably becasue I never entered a PIANO store.

Now My wife who is the real deal and played for major shows reading down charts and as a single for 30+ years never heard of them until I brought a CVP305 home for awhile. She was blown away as was I.

It Seems here in the States People don't mind hearing acts playing along with tracks. whether CD,Sequencers, or Arrangers. To the Audience there are sounds they hear but "no one's" playing. It does not matter their origin. A page from the Karaoke book I suppose which is very popular here.

If I'm reading this board right, in Europe Tracks are not accepted but Arrangers are. I see them as one and the same. It's mostly tracks that are being sequenced, albeit with some more control than over a CD or sequencer. But they are still hearing drums, horns, strings, with no drummer, horn or string section within a 100 feet.

Now i Figured if I never heard of them, and my wife never heard of them. There has to be a whole lot of American people who don;t know the power of them and how flexible and great they sound. I'm find that to be true spending a lot of time in a music store that sells them. Those who do know o them buy them for home use and others don't get to see them used live. I am amazed that of all the places here in Myrtle Beach there are OMB jobs n one uses an Arranger. It's baffling because they are so much better then CDs or sequences in live performance.

All that said It's no small wonder Ketron and Wersi cannot get traction here. YAMAHA TYROS and KORG PA series are minuscule when compared to their Workstations in the US. Roland seems to have given up completely in a market where they have great Workstation sales.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-13-2009).]

I don't mean to change direction on the post but I went to my local GC this afternoon to see if they had any new arrangers and guess what, they didn't. They had one tyros 2 display model on sale for $1000.00. Which I was floored by the price. It was priced to sell because they can't sell them and it's been there for a while,(so go figure.)I asked the sales rep if he would get any other arrangers and his reply was no, only special orders. So I would say that the times are really changing and I believe Roland will stop making arrangers and others like Yamaha, korg & ketron will limit there boards just to one model. Arrangers don't appeal to younger people in america because (1) its easier to play some cds and make the same money, if not more. (2) other kids in highschool get in to the garage band mode and they mostly take interest in guitars, basses and drums and by the time they get to college the fad has worn off. I can only imagine what I'll be playing in ten years.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 01-12-2009).]

MC..., I'd say the main reason the younger generation has no interest in arrangers is simply because in 2009 the arranger makers STILL don't give a damn about the younger market. Today's arrangers are what's out of touch. It's not the players that's the problem.

I'm not just talking about modern styles like Hip Hop, Rap, Dance, Club, ect.... Younger players today are passing on arrangers because they don't even have styles that reflect modern pop, rock, and alternative.

The problem is the arranger makers. Until they start making these things appeal to younger buyers well..., do the math on this one.... The target market ain't gonna be around forever to support the sales.

To use an arranger first & foremost you have to KNOW HOW to play!

Making most music of today using loop based cut/paste/stretching/vst/or whatever etc, etc, programs on a PC is not playing an instrument which takes years of practice.


So theres no surprise arrangers are made for players. Thats why there are other means for the other stuff.

That kind of echoes what I said originally about seeing OMBs, but no arranger in sight. How do you get the word out? How do you drive up the awareness? Maybe more 'home players' need to get their chops down and get out there. You can all use a bit of spare cash, right guys?

Dnj, you're right on the money, too.

No offense to anyone here (not that they won't take it anyway!) but can you see the arrogance in gloating that you 'need to know how to play' to use an arranger..?

What makes you think that all the professionals that use WS's can't play..? Or that YOUR chops could cut it on a modern rock track or hiphop mix?

No offense, once again, but I've heard the attempts to make contemporary sounding music on an arranger posted here. Pretty laughable, mostly. Good enough if you have no idea what genre you are even trying to sound like, I suppose, but let's face it. No-one is making modern hits on an arranger not because they don't have the chops! They don't make hits on arrangers, because arrangers don't have the sounds and styles needed.

Most young players that ARE playing keyboards these days professionally DO have chops. OK, they might not be YOUR chops, but on the other hand, they aren't making music for YOUR audience, either. You don't have THEIR chops, either!

No, sorry, but it must be said. The only ones around here without chops are a large percentage of arranger users! The 'Simon Cowell Effect' doesn't come out of nowhere..!

Try this... next time you are in a store with some kids looking at keyboards, demo an arranger for them (play something from their century ). Try not to get mad when they laugh their asses off!

But kidding yourself that the kids use WS's because they don't have the chops to play arrangers is absurd. It is the ARRANGERS that don't have the chops to play THEIR music...

Comon Tyros 4

Well said Diki! That's an extremely arrogant assumption to make about "playing skills". It's funny because so often arranger players complain about the stereotypes placed on them by non-arranger players, yet you'll find arranger players turn around and do the same thing and assume it takes more skill to operate an arranger.., yet (at least on this forum) you'll find that a large majority of arranger players here barely scratch the surface of their own keyboards.

I've said it in the past and I'll say it again. You want to really test or show your skill TURN OFF THE AUTO ACCOMP. Then post something for us to hear where you have to REALLY use both hands. You want to show how much skill you have then actually WRITE your entire song YOURSELF from scratch (including the drums). WS players may have arps but they sure as hell don't have their entire backing tracks running as arps. Most of the time you'll find WS players creating the majority of their backing tracks from scratch with the exception of maybe a guitar or bass arp running.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-13-2009).]

Why would I want to turn off the auto accompaniment?

That's why I bought the arranger...to make playing easier.

Pick a style, play a chord, play the melody...get paid.

Rinse and repeat.

Life is good.

Ian

Ian excactly great post!

Ohhhh.., sorry it must have slipped my mind that ONLY ARRANGER PLAYERS make money with their keyboards

I must be out of my mind to think that there are actually OMB workstation players out there making a comfortable living too.

Apprarently some of you guys seem to think the OMB WS player doesn't exist.., and you couldn't be more wrong. These guys make just as much money as you do.., only differnce is they don't have a problem digging into their keyboards to do the work. They don't spend countless hours looking for that perfect style.., they just make the damn track themselves. They too use vocal harmonizers (external).., and you'll often find a second acoustic instrument in their set as well. A lot of talented WS/guitar players out there making a living who actually use a REAL guitar rather than use the arps. I know some who actually sample their own guitar tracks and integrate those into their music rather than rely on the arps

Just like the OMB arranger player they have their own playlists.., take requests.., play popular songs from today and yesterday. They use a WS you guys use an arrnager. Using a WS doesn't make them any less valuable as an entertainer either.




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-13-2009).]

No one said that ONLY arranger players make money with their keyboards.

Most of us former band players find it much more fun using an arranger.

I'd gladly take my S900 over any workstation.

Ian

Correctomundo Ian......no one cares how you do it .....but they do care what it sounds like plain & simple. It's music first & foremost....close your eyes & LISTEN that's all that matters.Egos have no place in Good Sounding Music.

Personally, I find there is so much value in being able to just sit down, pick an appropriate style, and play away to my heart's content....no arps to program, no tracks to record, no "work" involved.

I believe that why it's called "playing".

It's nice to be paid to "play".

Workstations do have their place, but not in my rig...the S900 has a 16 track recorder and oodles of multipads if I do have the need to "roll my own".

That's close enough to a workstation for me, and I only have to please me.

Ian

IN 10 years it will be Karaoke and DJs.....I say DJs be cause not many arranger player will take the time to lean popular RAP songs to play at venues where today's youthful music listen will go for entertainment and a night out with the wife. We seem not to as a generation grow out of most popular music we listened to as kids for the most part and still attened their arena shows. Neither has our parents for the most part.

I would say to a youngster to day a qreat DJ or better yet put together a Dance/Karaoke show. Places here pay $45 ab hour for Dance/Karaoke set ups.Start the evening with Karaoke then as the night goes on play "dance" music interspersed wit a few Karaoke subjects. Win Win for the bar. The patron is the "live" entertainer while the music is exactly what the patrons ask for and I can tell you most of it are popular "hip Hop dance songs EVEN THOSE in their 30=s and 40's are requesting along with the usually "beach music" and R&B.

You learn a lot spending a few hours a day in a huge mall based music store a lot of tourists and locals patron..

the only problem with arrangers breaking into the mainstream US youth market is the lack of imagination of the users and the deliberate marketing separation by the manufacturers of work stations and arrangers. An arranger IS A WORKSTATION no ifs or buts. The tool is just a tool. If i wanted to use my arranger as a straight up workstation i can and i will prove it.

Below is a link to one of my favourite up and coming RnB/HipHop artists . Guy by the name Khoa le.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XZPiJ64JVmw&feature=channel_page

I am going to put my money where my mouth is. I dont have time to sample the instruments that he is using and I dont currently have a recording studio. I will reproduce as close to as possible the groove that he created entirely on my PA1X with the sounds i have onboard and the bits and pieces i have picked up along the way . I have a couple of engagements to prepare for over the next week and my daughter is staying with me this weekend ( my time is her time) so i will post something up hopefully by the end of next week. This is not to prove anything other than the point that an arranger (in this case the PA1X but the same could be done with the T1,2,or 3) can be used as a straight up Workstation.

Spalding..., you have an edge though. Those Korg PA's function more like WS's than the others. Korg IMO has done a great job at integrating the synth/arranger. You don't need to sample sounds really. You can tweek the current sound set.., and write your own styles. You're not going to be dropping any number one charters with an arranger, but with some creative editing you can make some pretty good modern styles using the Korg PA's.....

I listened to that Tube link and you'll be able to pull that off on that Korg man Hell.., you don't even have to really dig too deep into the style seq either. What that guy did sounded like standard 4 bar loop. You could rip that out on your Korg using ONE variation. I'll give you a tip too... I've noticed this on ALLLLL arranger keyboards. One key sound in hip hop is a solid CLAP. Most often arrangers have that clap tuned WAY too high. If your PA allows it.., take one of the preset claps and drop the tuning on it.

If you ever really wanted to take an inexpensive route to adding some killer hip hop kits to compliment that Korg PA.., get your hands on a Zoom StreetBoxx 246..., got one myself and can't put it down!!!!!





[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-13-2009).]

Hi spalding,

I'm a Pa1X Pro owner, too. There's more than enough hiphop/funk/hot sounds (must be that Triton connection) for my needs. Like Ian, I don't care to sit and twiddle knobs, I just love to play the thing. Everyone has their own pet things to do.

Yep. I did it for years. Ended up using Drums on Demand Loops, Guitar loops (either created by myself or purchased, Stings I learned to and could arrange, Bass was my biggest weakness.

Now I can assemble the same "loops" and play them and change them "live" in pre looped patterns. Any leads I do are done like vocals. Live and at the end of the tracking of the loops.

Arrangers like sequencers don't replace talent they are TIME SAVERS. No 20 something should be using an Arranger. they should be diving into a full blown workstation.

The first thing that attracted me to arrangers were the quality of the voices. When I heard them in the style players the decision was easy. But I will still have to write entire arrangements for some music. Some songs don;t lend themselves to loops.
Others are completely legato in places.

Talent is not reserved for those who play a particular keyboard. Nor is it self assured.
Talent is like the Right of Way....You never "have" it. It can only be yielded to you.

I may find Usher talentless but his success belies my opinion but does not disqualify it.

Then there are the majority who use pre recorded back up whether sequenced into a live board or a CD and play along on 88 weighted keys and or guitar and vocals. That seems to be the majority around here. Thats what the wife does even though we have the T3. She wants 88 weighted, nothng ele would suffice for her.

Depnding on the gig she will take the 55lb RD700 (if Im along, LOL) or the lighter 25 lb Privia 320 rather then the T3. I think it's partly learning a new way of doing things and the technology. Its easy to punch a track on a home produced CD using the T3 leaving out guitar or paino parts and play along with two hands on 88 even spliting of LH Bass or the guitar.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-14-2009).]

Who cares how anyone does it?... just have fun doing it, make people happy & use what ever you want because in the end it's always What it sounds like that counts No way around that when making music.

squeak_D (and others interested).

Could you please send me (or post here) a link of Song category and an example of such a song we can use to create styles that would 'hook' the younger generation to Arrangers?

We'd like to start working on such styles with an Arranger FOR TODAY'S GENERATION!!

E.G.


STYLE : ARTIST : SONG EXAMPLE

REGGAE - Bob Marly - Stirr it up
SOCA - ARROW - Feeling Hot Hot Hot

AJ...., simply TURN ON THE RADIO man! Everything you need to hear is there. Just go to any station that plays the HITS of today.... Hell.., just go to Yahoo radio and pick a station

Great move too AJ.... Glad to see someone's going to attempt a grab for the younger generation.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-14-2009).]

Any one who wants to listen, please check tunes on my website , all created by arranger keyboard ... My SD1 is a tool .. nothing more nothing less...I had lyrics and wanted to put some ideas together..

I think I used my SD creatively ...


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http://www.esnips.com/web/Songs

I'm so glad I'm old! I got to hear all the greats perform live, was able to shake some of their hands, and see them perform.

I'm now seeing how the younger generation is stacking up. And in many instances I'm impressed. Just two American Idol tryouts televised and there is some real talent out there this year. A significant number of the tryouts have incredible vocal talent, and they all tend to select songs that many of us are currently performing at various locations throughout the nation.

Squeak, I listen to the radio two hours or more every day while traveling to and from jobs. To be perfectly honest, I'm NOT hearing what you seem to be extolling . And, I'm fairly confident the folks in the R&D departments of Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Ketron and many others are hearing the same things I'm hearing. And, they tend to reflect this in their selection and quantity of their onboard style categories and selection.

There are a huge number of radio stations in the Baltimore/Washington/Philadelphia/Richmond metro areas, most of which are competing for the same markets. Only a tiny fraction of them play what you refer to as modern music for the younger generation. Hip-Hop and Rap are nearly non-existent, there's a fair amount of rock, and lots of country. My relatives on the west coast and down south tell me it's the same where they are. If this is the case, I suspect arranger keyboard manufacturers are merely echoing the current demands of the general public and main-stream music industry trends.

JMO,

Gary

"squeak_D (and others interested).

Could you please send me (or post here) a link of Song category and an example of such a song we can use to create styles that would 'hook' the younger generation to Arrangers?"


AJ.. I think the sale of an arranger keyboard, boils down to the people who work in the music store to demonstrate how an arranger can be used to create a song.

Most people just don't get it... Besides, with rock band & guitar hero , the songs that most youth hear the most are on these programs... Hotel California - The Joker (s.miller). Bon Jovi and many other bands from the 70's & 80's .. I Don't hear Beatles songs coming from guitar hero .. too bad.

Sales don't lie... check out Billboard's Hot 100.

They might be playing Guitar Hero to Aerosmith, or whatever, but they are buying hiphop and alternative. Look at the Top 20. Just how many artists there do you recognize the names of?

I don't know why everyone finds it so hard to put themselves in the mind of a 20 year old! Imagine the scenario that you are a kid in the sixties. Your parents HATE the Beatles. There's an keyboard out there that is an arranger, but it ONLY has bigband styles and ballroom. You go 'why isn't there an arranger with Beatles styles on it?' and they go:



What would YOU say?

You're trying to tell me that in the Baltimore/Philly area, there's little hiphop and modern rap and R&B on the radio?! I guess if you immediately hit 'Next' on the dial, it might SEEM that way....

The thing that frustrates me is that Yamaha, Roland, Korg, they ALL have teams of beat programmers making VERY contemporary loops (just pretend they are styles!) and arps for their WS division. Why not put the same teams onto creating fresh beats and styles for arrangers AS WELL...

It's not as if the arranger divisions don't KNOW there's a market for these styles (call them loops!)... WS's outsell arrangers what, 100-1?

Right on Diki..., Heck it has already been done TWICE already. Proof enough that a modern arranger keyboard can be produced with UP TO DATE styles can be seen in the Yamaha DJX.., and (remember this blast from the past) Roand EG-101...

Diki's absolutely right Gary..., where you live Balt/Philly/DC area is FREAKIN HUGE for modern radio stations. When I went out there several years back..., I was in electronica bliss with all those stations that played this music.

I'm not some 20 year old kid either. Far from that. I do however enjoy some modern music (don't care for that trash gangsta rap with B this B that, MF this, ect). There are some really good R&B/Hip Hop artists out there that are very talented. I will use the word talented because if you think it's easy as pie to create a modern radio ready track.., then you're sorely mistaken.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-16-2009).]

Birds do it..., Bees do it.., even educated makers of the keys do it

Even Roland answered the call for it back in the day (like 10 years ago)
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb99/articles/rolandeg101558.htm

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-16-2009).]

Are you guys so naive to think Yamaha. Roland & Korg R&D don't know whats going on in the music world....?
WS vs AR is done for a reason...why should they cut off their nose to spite their face....two separate entities = more money it's a simple business strategy.

What happened is Yamaha learned with the original DJX that an affordable modern arranger WOULD cut into the profits of their bigger workstations. It doesn't take a marketing genius to figure out that Yamaha realized the impact the DJX had when they released the DJX II. They knew the DJX line would be dead after the release of the second model.., but still used that one to make a few bucks before letting it die.

Come on now...., if keyboard makers continued to make top arrangers (as they do today), but include a "special section" of styles along with all the traditional ones (much like they do with region specific keyboards out there.., cough cough Roland GW-8) People would FLOCK like flies on crap to these arrangers....

They won't do it because once they start doing it they know darn good and well there's NO WAY the younger crowd would pay the prices arranger players have been getting jacked on for years.

Yamaha Motif XS8 (88 freakin graded hammer action keys... top end workstation built like a horse) Cost: $3,199

Yamaha Motif XS6 (same thing as the Motif XS8, built for the pro market, but with a 61 note keybed comparable to the Tyros line) Cost:$2,199

Yamaha Tyros 3 (plastic body, built for the home player, 61 keys, no where near the editing power of the workstation) Cost: $3,899

Well...., they just simply wouldn't be able to charge those prices anymore now would they if John and Jane 20'something became a huge part of the buying market.


[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-16-2009).]

Squeak dont you get it?.....it doesn't matter many people don't even know what an arranger Kb is...all they see is keys....it could be a Casio $199.00 unit or it could be a Nord synth in their eyes "Oh that's nice my grandson has one like that" Yea right!.....the prices they charge for these units are what the market dictates whether you think it's worth it or not they are selling like crazy. It's all about making money.

Diki,

You would be amazed at the number of 25 to 35 year olds that I perform for, and they NEVER ask for hip-hop or rap. However, they love it when I do Hotel California, and I play it using a Yamaha ARRANGER KEYBOARD. They love what they hear, they come back for more and they bring their friends. As for the top 20, well, lets see how many of those songs are even in the top 50 a year from now. Ten years from now no one will remember the names of those performing today's top 20. Fifty years from now they'll still be playing Cole Porter's arrangements.

Squeak,

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject. As I said on the onset of my post, I'm glad I'm old.

Cheers,

Gary

What he said.

I can count on one hand the number of songs in my playlist that weren't there ten, even twenty years ago.



[This message has been edited by Seamaster (edited 01-16-2009).]

Come on guys.. Step outside your normal playing venue..., and step into a modern club that plays all forms of electronia. Perhaps you aren't seeing the 20 somethings requesting these songs simply because YOU'RE NOT EVEN PLAYING THE RIGHT VENUE.

It's funny how you guys make your statements as if you're "in touch" with that group and you don't even play those venues. You make your statements based on the current venues you're playing now. Perhaps you'd get the picture better if you stepped into a modern "Hip" club that caters to these styles of music. Take your PSR's and other arrangers into these venues and do your regular playlists. Let's see how fast the floor either clears or packs.

If you stepped into one of these venues you'd find the age ranging from 21 all the way up into the 50's. If you attempted to play these venues you'd quickly realize how "incapable" your arrangers really are at "rocking the house" for these styles of music.

These guys aren't all DJ's at these clubs either. I've been to quite a few in my lifetime and you'll often find the DJ is also a musician..., and in many cases will even have a keyboard with their other gear. It's not all turntables, and virtual CD scratching either.

I've also been at way too many events to count where the musician had to stick to a modern playlist..., and stil to date no arranger will cut it.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-16-2009).]

"Chops" are overrated at OMB Beach bars, Dance clubs, and the like. There are OMBs playing for a living all over the country without chops. Arrangers do make it easier. Put someone with just a piano out there and see how far his/here "chops" take them.

If one plays for pay classical ,chops are important, If one plays for pay, Oscar Peterson and other fast jazz, chops are important, If one plays a baby Grand in Nordstrums at the Mall chops are "somewhat" inomrtant.

HOWEVER If is playing Margaritaville, Sweet Caroline, How Sweet it Is, or practically any other "boss bound single hit" song on a typical playlist for a bar or dance, Vocals are far more important than Chops. There are many self taught players making a living in music. Especially playing songs made famous written by other self taught musicians!!!

Unless you play like Keith Emerson with a lot of keyboard calisthenics like is popular with contemporary female singers, The wow factor is pretty much not there. Regualar folks want to hear familiar songs by mediocre (thank goodness for many who never took piano lessons since 4 years of age) hit makers.

People are more impressed with your set list then technical prowess in the regular OMB bar and club scene. At Carnegie Hall maybe the expectations are higher...but then again as any one has the White " Chicagp Live at Carnegie Hall" CD even there one does not have to be all that.

Doesn't take chops to loops create hip hop . Just a sequencer and an imagination. Had a guy in the store two days ago who is genuinely surprised people are paying him $100- $200 for a CD of loops he creates in a Roland Fantom. Takes him a couple hours.

"Chops" are usually overrated by those who don't have them.

Ian

Sure, Gary, you can play the Eagles, James Taylor and many of the classics from the 70's to the kids and they will like it (I do exactly the same thing)... but if you played some Ben Harper, or Jack Johnson, John Mayer, John Legend, Coldplay, (the list goes on) to them, they would love you at least as much, and probably more....

Plenty of contemporary music that doesn't stray as far as rap and hiphop that the kids like... but it's STILL difficult to find styles that nail that modern flava. But it's a snap on a WS... It's only the CONTENT, there's little missing in a modern arranger's OS to make this stuff. It's just the styles...

It's ALWAYS about the styles...

SNAP...!