http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2009/01/23/wnamm09-roland-v-piano-behind-closed-doors/

John Maul shows how this exciting new technology works, how it sounds and what it's capable of.

V-Piano premiere: Wednesday 4th March
Those wanting to hear the Roland V-Piano for themselves should grab a ticket for the forthcoming UK premiere, which also features the new Atelier organs. Experience the next steps in piano and organ technologies with presentations from John maul (V Piano) and Ralf Schink (Atelier). This high-profile event is held at the Arnolfini Theatre in Bristol. The events starts at 11am and tickets are free but need to ordered in advance.

Hey Donny ,

I just received my Roland news e-mail too.

I had to check out the new V-Piano , man , that thing is wild !!

No sampling , but man , the things you can do as far as tunings.

That is just too cool !!

To bad the T-3 didn`t have something like that , I mean heck they have drawbars , they could have had that type of parameters for piano , O_well Tyros 4 , maybe !! LOL

Later

Gary 

Amazing stuff, for sure... Just the detuning alone is worth the price of admission, IMO.

Six years or so, this will be in an arranger (if arrangers still exist!)... can't wait

But where is Ian? How on earth can Roland leap so far ahead, when they don't actually MAKE real pianos? Yamaha were one of the first to market modeled sounds (VL-1), but seem to have abandoned it. Perhaps not their best move...

I have a nasty feeling this Roland is going to have quite a bit of sticker shock, but hey! It's a quantum leap forward, and we always get the trickle down effect if we can wait long enough...

Too much money (for me), and way too heavy(for most).

Having said that, it is by far the nicest, most realistic Roland piano sound I've heard...and certainly the most versatile by the specs.

Disappointments? Well, it only has PIANO sounds, or am I mistaken?

That means if you want piano layered with strings, the most popular combination, or bass on the left and piano the right as a split, then you will need another instrument, or a module MIDI'd to it.

At that lofty price, at least some strings/pad sounds should have been included.

This seems more likely to be a studio only instrument, unless you've got help moving it...the CP-300 I have is 72 lbs(without a case!) and it is no joy to move.

No doubt this technology will drift down to more manageable and cheaper instruments...it would be nice to see it in a new G-series.

With a decent set of stereo monitors/speakers mounted on top or at least facing you, the effect of playing a "real" piano would be greatly enhanced.

Viewed purely as just an ultra realistic digital piano? Definitely a winner.

Ian

And, as you point out so often, no shortage of 'pros' actually toting a CP-300 around (despite the speakers! ), so probably for all but the elderly or not very picky it will get plenty of stage use.

To MOST pure 'pros', first and foremost comes the sound. How many STILL hump around real Rhodes's, Wurli's, B3's etc.? I doubt this will be even that heavy... It might be too heavy for 'MOST' arranger players. I doubt it will be too heavy for most pianists...

And, as usual, the heaviest, most complex and expensive version gets marketed first. Got to recoup that R&D money as fast as possible! But I have no doubt that a lighter, perhaps less elaborate version will hit the shelves before long.

Yes, this is the most realistic piano Roland have released. And short of a good CFIII, better than any Yamaha too, I'm afraid I guess actually making REAL pianos doesn't count for that much, after all!

If you were right, I'd agree with you.

Yamaha never sleeps. http://www.yamaha.com/namm/w2009/PressRe...25165&DDL_CAT=0

Don't count your chickens....

Ian

Not very many, unless they have the luxury of roadies.

Add to that the maintenance of these older instruments.

I'm afraid that is not a realistic point of view.

Would you carry the V-Piano around by yourself?

With the road case it would be over 100 lbs, not to mention it being rather large and unwieldy...certainly way more so than your G70, and that instrument has lost several users on this forum due to its lack of portability.

Most arranger players wouldn't even look at the V-Piano...and most arrangers, including the portly G70 don't weigh as much, or are as big.

Most pianists would insist on a real grand, not a electronic piano...do you really think this would be preferred by Bob James, or Dave Grusin?

It doesn't even have a Rhodes sound...or a Wurly sound...or a Clavinet....na da...ziltch...nor can you make these sounds on it.

A CP-300 or even an RD-series is far more versatile as a stage piano...and lighter, and FAR less expensive. and they have the Rhodes, Wurly, Clavinet and even the B3 covered...plus they have strings and pads.

L, I say to you...LOL

It's certainly a good, or even a great, step forward, but it's only a first step, and it is still standing on one foot(the piano sound) ...time will tell if it will go the distance.

A winner yes, but only in a small category.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-05-2009).]

Way too many ASSumtions here, Ian. You ought to know better..!

What's the price? What's the weight?

Don't kid yourself that OMB's are the majority of the keyboard market. They might be the majority here, but we all, if we dial back the egotism just a tad, might acknowledge that we don't determine the market (or arrangers WOULD rule the roost over WS's!) in the least. Heck, most stores don't even CARRY TOTL arrangers!

RD700G's, CP-300's, SD-1's, ALL of these extremely popular keyboards sales-wise are FAR in excess of what most here are willing to cart. Not to mention B3's, of course. So the V-Piano, even if a fair bit more than a CP-300, will probably be willingly lugged around by the same players as are now willing to lug these other behemoths (by S900 standards ).

SOME players still consider sound more important than weight. Not many here, but sales of stage pianos (which probably outstrip all arranger sales short of the 'toy' sub-$700 ones) show that many are willing. And yes, I've seen MANY major 'pros', recording artists, out and out pianists on stage with Yamaha CP-300's, Nord Stage's, Roland RD-series and even ancient Korg SD-1's... I don't see why they are going to turn their nose up at this!

As realistic as this sounds, as customizable as it is (sorry Ian, but you MIGHT have noticed the new Yamaha you linked to is still an old-tech SAMPLED piano, not a trace of modeling) as able to be imbued with the individual character each player wants, I predict you'll be seeing these in favor of REAL pianos (maybe gussied up in a piano case like so many already do) on a lot of TV shows and on many, many records (and unless you look real close, you won't know it's not a real piano!)...

And yes, if it feels right and I can afford it, it is going in my collection as fast as I can. I will probably put my upright up for sale if this plays and sounds as good in person as the demos do. Just to be able to instantly chose your intonation and inter-string tuning so easily pushes it into a realm that digital pianos have never gone before.

So what if it doesn't have other sounds? I've already got THOSE covered. Or one of these and a Nord Electro3 on top, you've got the ultimate 'meat and potatoes' rig...

Mark my words. This changes EVERYTHING!

Nothing will change. The guitar player and the singer will get all the girls, the drummer and bass player will get all the beer, and the keyboard player will get the hernia....

Dan

Well, Diki, I am not assuming the weight, which is on the Roland site as 84 lbs, and the price is supposed to be around $5900-$6000, or very near.

An 84 pound, $6000 digital piano with ONE sound (piano) in a downturn economy?

Yeah...that's a recipe for success.

Plus, once you get the 5 or even 10 piano sounds that you will use, that's it.

You can fix lots of piano weirdness with EQ.

And, listening to the demos, I don't hear "wood"...not much warmth either...I guess up against a $2000 digital piano, it sounds good....but it SHOULD for over twice the price.

No doubt it will still sound better than an RD, piano-wise, but I'd say this product is for a niche market...until it trickles down to more affordable and portable instruments, it will probably remain a rarity, much like the G70.

It's a one trick pony, (no expansion slots)...and a big fat pony at that...

You would really lug this around by yourself?

I'd like to see a "before and after" video of that feat.

And your chiropractor bills after a few months of moving it around.

I'm guessing, if you do buy it, it will reside in your studio...if not, you're going to need a pretty good road case to protect it, which will bump the weight up to over 100 lbs....not quite Fender Rhodes 73 territory(about 130 lb.), but still pretty darn heavy for one person to put on a stand, or lift in and out of a vehicle.

Why not wait till it comes out in a module, or something far more manageable?

It reminds me of the Yamaha GS1, the forerunner to the DX7...you remember that one...Toto used a couple...they are pretty much useless today, as will be this particular V-Piano in the future.

I guess you can convince yourself that it's a viable investment, and that it changes "EVERYTHING", but as far as I'm concerned, after making that kind of statement, you are the one making the assumptions.

Good luck to you with whatever you decide.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-08-2009).]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXozg2U_wss

Hadn't seen the weight and price specs where I looked. Congrats on tracking them down... (was that $CAN?)

All I want to know is, where did this epidemic of myaesthenia gravis first start? The Rhodes, at 130 lbs, is nearly double the weight of the V-Piano, makes but ONE sound (whereas the V-Piano seems capable of a broad range of piano tones), but we ALL happily lugged it around, and many still do, just for that one sound.

Once again, the assumption that most keyboard players CAN'T lug something that big around, when we have history to show us that, when the sound is THAT good, everyone WILL...

Yep, that price is steep, but as I said, it won't be long before it 'trickles down', and even before that, if I can get a few projects together that would pay for it (or even better, persuade my studio's owner to buy one!), I'll be playing it as soon as I can...

I don't mind 'one trick ponies' as long as that ONE trick is a showstopper. I've expressed admiration for the Nord Electro for a long time, which does but four, but does them better than anything else... Looking at the plethora of them in the hands of top pros on TV and records, seems that a 'jack of all trades but master of none' isn't quite what most are shooting for. And I'd be willing to bet that a large percentage of stage pianos with loads of other sounds in them rarely get any use other than piano. Maybe some Rhodes, but many pianists want just a piano. Nothing more, but definitely nothing less. This seems to have less compromise than anything else out there at the moment.

No doubt, when the CP70 came out, there were clavinet players going 'but it's TOO HEAVY... wah, wah, wah!'. That didn't stop a boatload of them selling. What's a clavinet got to do with a piano? Not much. What's an arranger player got to do with a piano? Not much either, from the sound of it!

Of course I wouldn't use something like this for an OMB gig. But yes, studio work, cocktail piano, first call band gigs, touring... I'd use one in a flash! Can't wait to try one...

BTW, Kurzweil K2500X, a staple in studio and stage for years... 76 lbs.

Where are these buff keyboard gods coming from..? Tough to find even ONE here! Even I have to admit, my K2500 at 55 lbs isn't a LOT of fun to move, but I have gigged with it... I guess it makes my G70 seem a featherweight

If you must have it Diki, I'm sure the weight or price won't stop you....and I'm sure you be able to convince yourself that you were very happy with it.

What strikes me odd, is that in a day when digital pianos can be both lightweight (25 lbs) and powerful AND inexpensive, here comes an instrument that weighs almost twice as much as your G70 and costs an arm and a leg (and a pulled groin muscle. )

I'm sure YOU will find use for it(not the pulled groin muscle...the piano ).

Just because performers lugged around heavy one sound instruments in the past, like the CP70, or Fender Rhodes, doesn't really justify doing it now...we are supposed to moving ahead, not backwards...if that were the case we'd all be using huge PC's and there would be no laptops.

What happened to the "sheer perfection" G70 piano?

Why dump your hard earned dough into a very expensive instrument that will replace one that you have told me already wows the people you record for...they even prefer it over a Steinway?

Seems like GAS to me, but we can all get it, I've been in it's grasp a few times, but thankfully, sensibility prevailed.

The V-Piano had better be road worthy...we're not talking about lumps like the CP70 and Rhodes that would crush a careless an unsuspecting roadie, and still work .

Buy if you must, and if you trust your lust , but, I know I'd think long and hard about something like this, and I am a piano player first and an arranger player second, and wouldn't mind spending the money for a great sound and feel....but, I'd at least like to be able to move it myself, and not see it limited to only a few uses..and it would have to be a bit more practical than an instrument with one sound and no expansion possibilities.

Don't expect anyone to talk you out of GAS...there are several chronic sufferers here on SZ that would surely want company, if only to justify their own lust with the addition of another victim, but at least consider all the possibilities carefully before you replace that great "sheer perfection" all purpose Honda station wagon with a Hummer H1.

Ian

I resemble that remark.



chas

PS: So does Russ .

Ha Ha, Chas, the thing that’s so bad about gear lust is that even though we know it’s bad, we just can’t help ourselves.

We always manage to convince ourselves that if only we can plump up the cash for this "one keyboard", or "one module" or "one piano", that life will feel complete and that we will reach the next Zen plain of true contentment. But, just like an addictive drug, the old gear lust comes a-wondering back into our consciousness. It’s not something we're born with.....we acquire it.

A fool and his money...are soon partying.

It'd be interesting to hear/play it in person, but the features the guy focuses on are, IMO, curious...

Its a piano and only a piano and I'm not sure when compared to other top end digital pianos that's its uniqueness will have broad appeal. Yes, the features are impressive, but beyond studio use or perhaps part of a larger stage set up, I don't think its going to win many ties with similar, lighter and less expensive kb's.


------------------
Bill in Dayton

Excuse me?


V-Piano:
The Piano Redefined

Specs:

Keyboard Section
Keyboard
88 keys PHA III (Progressive Hammer Action III) Ivory feel Keyboard with Escapement
Sound Generator Section (V-Piano)
Maximum number of tone-producing virtual strings
264-string (varies according to the sound generator load)
Tones
Preset: "24 Tones", User: 100 Tones
Setups
100
V-Piano editing parameters
Unison Tune, Hammer Hardness, Cross Resonance, Tone Color, String Resonance, Damper Resonance, Soundboard Resonance, Key off resonance, Damping Time, Damping Noise Level, and more
Effects
Ambiance: 12 types, 4-band Digital Equalizer
Sound Generator Section (GM2: playable via SMF and MIDI)
Parts
16 Parts
Maximum Polyphony
128 voices
Tones
"256 Tones"
Sequencer Section
Playable File Format
Standard MIDI File: format-0/1, Audio File: WAV, MP3
Recording Format
Standard MIDI File: format-0
Number of Recording Tracks
1 track (realtime recording)
Note Capacity
approx. 30,000 notes
Control
Play/Stop, Backward, Forward, Tempo Change, Transpose, Center Cancel (only for audio playback)
Tempo
Quarter note = 10 to 500, Audio Playback Speed: 75 to 125%
Resolution
120 ticks per quarter note
Metronome
Beat: 2/2, 0/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 7/4, 3/8, 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, Volume: 11 levels
Song Length
Max 998 measures
Others
Display
240 x 64 dots graphic LCD (with backlit)
Controllers
Volume knob, Ambience knob
Pedal
Damper (half-pedal recognition), Soft (half-pedal recognition, function assignable), Sostenuto (function assignable)
Internal Memory
4M bytes
Other Functions
Panel Lock, V-Link
Connectors
Output A (L/MONO, R standard), Output A (L, R XLR), Output B (L/MONO, R standard), Output B (L, R XLR), Input(L/MONO, R standard), Piano Pedal, Damper Pedal, Control Pedal (FC1, FC2), MIDI (IN, OUT, THRU), USB (MIDI, Memory, For Update), Digital Audio Out (Coaxial), Headphones, AC Inlet
Power Supply
AC 100V, AC 117V, AC 230V or AC 240V(50/60Hz), AC 220V (60Hz)
Power Consumption
27W
Accessories
Owner's manual, CD-ROM (Editor), Keyboard Stand: KS-V8, Piano Pedal, USB Cable, Power Cord
Options
Stereo Keyboard Amplifier: KC-880, Stereo Headphones: RH-300, Monitor Headphones: RH-A30, Damper Pedal: DP-10, Expression Pedal: EV-5, EV-7, Footswitch: BOSS FS-5U, Dual Footswitch: BOSS FS-6
Size and Weight
Width
1,411 mm
55-9/16 inches
Depth
530 mm
20-7/8 inches
Height
166 mm
6-9/16 inches
Weight
38.2 kg
84 lbs. 4 oz.

*The specifications are subject to change without notice.

Yep...that's what I said:

"An 84 pound, $6000 digital piano with ONE sound (piano) in a downturn economy?"

"Yeah...that's a recipe for success."

I know it interested me quite a bit at first...until I realized the limitations.

1. One sound. Piano. No expansion slots.

2. Not realistically transportable for one person.

3. No controller facilities...no wheels, no assignable sliders etc.

4.Number of Recording Tracks:1 track (realtime recording)



For those who like to endlessly tweak piano tones....go for it!

It's "only" $6000.

Definitely a niche product.

My advice...wait for the sequels.


Ian

Geez oh man! This thing's gonna be freakin hot for sure. This new V-Piano CLEARLY shows that NO COMPANY who makes real acoustic pianos (or their di-hard supporters) can say that a company who makes the real thing can do the digital emulation best. Roland just blew that assumption into space! DEBUNKED is the better word for it.

Seriously...., there is NOTHING, NADA, ZIP, in Yamaha's line up that can compete with this V-Piano. So the hell what if this thing had just ONE piano sound (which it doesn't by the way). SHOW ME ONE FREAKIN DIGITAL PIANO OUT THERE THAT PRODUCES AND TWEEKS THE SOUND IN THE WAY THE V-PIANO DOES.., and offers this amount of user control over the sound..., and show me any other digital out there that has taken this approach to digtially reproducing the piano! Yamaha in all their years of making the real thing have produced nothing like the V-Piano.., at this point they gotta play catch up.., aint no sugarcoating it or whatever because at this point it's now "playing catch up" for all the other makers out there.

Ian.., all do respect man, but the biggest thing that you cannot ignore is that not only did Roland just blow the digital piano market up with this unit.., but they did this by creating a digital that does it's thing WITHOUT velocity switching! Hell.., even the mighty Kurzweil still relies on velocity switching.., and they got some darn nice piano samples.

Weight to be an issue...., for some maybe, but this thing will be on stages and studios everywhere. People will still lug this thing around to gigs just because of the sound that comes out of it and what you can do with it. I'm willing to bet that one of our local well known jazz musicians will be picking one of these things up for sure.

Ian.., this is a digital piano... it's not designed to be a master controller, it's not designed to function as a workstation (so why complain about ONE track of recording and the number of presets and what they cover)....

You want all those features then buy a workstation or a dedicated master controller. This IS NOT and WAS NOT designed for that purpose. Plus this thing DOES have a software editor..., and it does have midi jacks so it can (to some extent) be used as a controller. Not every digital piano out there has pitch and mod wheels Ian.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 02-06-2009).]

Exactly Squeak....

It's one Piano sound to start which can be tweaked in so many way to change that sound into limitless tones to create that signature sound your looking for. It's a shame that the arranger minded of many don't understand & are blind to what Roland has just achieved & put on the market for the serious musician.
Piano players should be jumping for joy & wanting to put their hands on this wonderful product....good job Roland.

Exactly Donny! I would think that IAN who proclaims to be all about the PIANO being as realisic as possible and offering as much user control as possible would be all over something like this. I'm a piano player before all other things I do related to music. If I had the dough this thing would be in my home for sure.

Perphaps Ian's real problem with the V-Piano and his complaints about things IT'S NOT DESIGNED FOR really fall down to the unit saying ROLAND and not YAMAHA. Maybe he's mad Roland got there first.....

V Piano is a Pianomans Dream machine!

Just speculation, Squeak...don't assume that this product will be successful until it gets out in the public and is given the litmus test.

Too heavy and expensive for the average gigging musician, especially if it has to be moved by one person.

Most, if not all, jazz piano players want an acoustic.

Meanwhile, Yamaha will make acoustic pianos for them.

The V-Piano has one sound playable from the keyboard...piano...many variations...but, ONE sound nevertheless.

Time will tell how successful it is.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-08-2009).]

Mine does.

Ian..., come off it man. YOUR digital has that because it WAS designed to ALSO fucntion as a MIDI CONTROLLER and not just a digital piano. Again your complaints are moot because you're bitching about things this V-Piano wasn't even designed or marketed for...

Ian..., you're freakin nuts or you must live in a very cold isolated bubble way up somewhere in Canada to 'specluate" that most if not all jazz players want an acoustic piano...... I've seen countless jazz performers use digitals.

You know darn good and well if it was Yamaha's name on this V-Piano you'd be all over the freaking thing. You'd be going on and on about how great it is.., and bouncing up and down. You're too proud to even admit that Roland has just outdone Yamaha on this one.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 02-06-2009).]

If you read my initial comments on this piano Squeak, you'd realize I was pretty excited about it.

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/018962.html

I don't care what name is on the product...I use what suits my needs...I would definitely buy a Roland or Korg if I felt my personal playing needs required it...I don't have to stick solely with Yamaha because I do a few clinics and demos for them.

I'm considering several products made by other manufacturers...the Nord C1, the Hammond XK1 to name a few.

After some consideration, and a dose of reality, I realized the V-Piano would not be for me, no matter how much I love playing the piano.

It's not practical at all...would you drag around one of these things by yourself?

I'm considering a CP-33 to replace my CP-300, instead of a P85(no wheels).

Am I "mad"? Maybe in the sanity sense, Squeak , but seeing an such an innovative product by Roland only means one thing...competition always improves the breed.

Nothing wrong with that.

Ian

You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me.

That's good Ian.., but you were complaining about things it's not designed for and comparing it to digitals that WERE designed and marketed for what YOU'RE wanting.

Ian there are MILLIONS of people out there who don't give a rats left testicle about ANY other sound on a digital than the piano. Many people buy digitals just FOR the piano alone. This unit is going to really fill that market need. There are people that simply are PIANO players and nothing more, but don't want a HUGE acoustic piano that requires costly upkeep, but want and are willing to spend the money for the MOST realistic digital emulation they can get (that won't take up the space of a baby grand). This V-Piano is IT. Try to look at it from the eyes of the person who just plays piano. Even at $6,000 it's still LESS than a good quality baby grand and soundwise is well..., probably the closest hardware emulation on the planet at the moment. Plus it'll allow the PIANO PLAYER to do things not possible with a real acoustic piano. Could you imagine how much it would cost to get an acoustic tailored to your specific needs SOUND WISE from a piano maker??? This V-Piano is going to make A LOT of piano players very happy. Me it's not making happing because I can't afford the thing

You and I share something in common. We're both PIANO players. I like doing all kinds of things on my synths and workstations, but above all that my love is the PIANO. My entire studio is getting a remake and my master controller will be the best fully weighted 88 key controller I can afford. I spend countless hours just playing piano on my keyboards and nothing else. That's what I started with and continued to play throughout the years regardless of what and how many synths I owned at the time.

Yes..., this will up the game and the others will now work hard to improve. Yamaha surely will tackle this one. They got some work to do (I'm sure they can get it). Roland just got their first..., and this is one of those cases where Yamaha might have to take a lesson or two from Roland. The success of one clearly can make the other better as they try to compete. I'm confident Yamaha in time will do their version of this (probably will sell for more though..., gotta be honest on that one). Yamaha's still relying on velocity switching and the number of LAYERS in those samples to be switched (Motif XS's piano a great example) They heavily marketed the number of layers in that piano and the amount of velocity switching used to make all those layers work.

Well, my friend, MOST people who buy digital pianos don't give a vole's colon that they can edit the piano sound or change the string's material...because most are first going to try it out, and IF they like the piano sound, they will buy it.

Most will buy a digital to play...not to tweak.

The V-Piano is a niche product...plain and simple.

In time, the technology will drift down to the medium to low priced pianos...mind you, that won't happen overnight, and then it will be presented in a less elaborate form.

Then the people looking for a digital piano for little Jane or Johnny, the schools, and no doubt the average working musician will be able to benefit from the V-Piano's groundbreaking technology.

In the meantime, Korg and Yamaha will come up with their own versions, IF the V-Piano's technology and approach to digital pianos is successful.

Competition...always improves the breed.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-06-2009).]

Again Ian.., another assumption man. There are tons of piano players who buy FULL 88 key workstations just to tweek the pianos (acoustic and electric) and see all the other bells and whistles as just an added bonus. I know many people who are piano players who own the top end 88 key workstations who buy these things simply because of the ability to tweek those pianos and the key action. Plus with these top end workstations they're getting good piano sounds, and still paying LESS than they would for a good quality acoustic. So yes there are many who won't tweek them, but there are just as many that will and want the ability to do that. This V-Piano is going to make many piano players happy because they'll be able to fine tune this thing to the way THEY want it without having to spend their life savings to custom order an acoustic. This piano may cost $6,000 but it sure as hell will save a lot of people some money in the long run.

Also Ian I have never met a piano player that didn't say there wasn't something they'd like to SOUND better on the acoustic piano they own. I've played my share of pianos that sounded great, but thought if only the bottom end wasn't so muddy and so on. This V-Piano will allow piano players to take those things they wish they could get on a custom tailored acoustic but couldn't afford and make it happen. Ian.., I'm sure you've sat in front of enough pianos in your lifetime that were good, but only wished you could do a little something different, but couldn't. The V-Piano is going to let people customize their piano sounds in ways we've never seen before. This is one of those times I wish that I could be a Roland demo rep for a few months! I'd snag one of those V-Pianos for payment (screw the money.., give me that V-Piano)

I'm also one who always bitches about price, but look at what all this piano allows you to do for LESS than the cost of a good baby grand acoustic. Take into consideration what the production cost must be for this thing.., and I can only imagine what the dealer cost will be too!!!!!!! Still.., for the prices I've seen listed here..., and taking into consideration what all you can do with this thing, even at that price you're still saving some money IMO.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 02-06-2009).]

its over indulgence from my point of view. Listen to the roland RD700GX or Rolands other upright or digital pianos.If you cant find a great piano there then you wont find one in the Vpiano ! They have excellent piano sounds , key feel etc plus excellent additional sounds .Editing and modifying the tonality is every bit as intuitive as the V piano. The editing functions on the Vpiano look impressive simply because of the new application of physical modelling but all that means is that you can tweak a piano so it no longer sounds like a piano !!! The only reason peol buy specific stage piano instruments is because it sounds like the real thing, not some weird piano that has never been invented yet.....This is just great marketing of an old technology used in new way (physical modelling ). But i am sure someone will buy it. But i agree with Ian , this has to be a very niche market.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-06-2009).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-06-2009).]

Yeah, but those other Roland's are still using Velocity Switching man.., and yes those too sound very good. I don't however think those models give you the level of customizing that the V-Piano offers though. This new unit is all about the acoustic piano..., they focused on it and gave you more tools.., and even if they reached back to older technology..., what's wrong with taking something older and making it better???? What do you think Super Articulated Voices are? It's velocity switching tweeked out on crack. Old technology being used in a new way. I'm sure Ian would agree on that one as those SA voices sound damn nice. They improved upon older technology and are selling a crap load of Tyros and S900's because of it.

The biggest unmentioned issue with this "Piano'

No one who is listening will notice the minutiae. No one will care whether its a V this or RD or CP. All they will hear is......."Piano" Period. The technology like in the hifi world has gone well beyond the biology of the Avg Joes ears.

Joe doesn't "listen" to music. He "hears"
it.

The race for the best sounding digital piano was over years ago for all but the most "discerning" ears or those who claim to be able to hear a gnat fart in the key of Eb while playing in C.

This is getting to be like Engadget's making fools of Audio experts with a blind test between Monster cable and coat hangers.http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/

People by spec sheets.
"if you've dropped enough cash, you can probably hear anything you want"

I would bet there are "piano players" who in a blind test would embarrassingly surprise their own bias' If that piano was a Yamaha DIKI would find fault with it just hearing it and knowing nothing else.....IF the Avant Yamaha was a Roland IAN would find the same.

Its fun to read the circular and consistent arguments though.

Now if you are comparing the CP-70 to the Rhodes, or Wurlitzer 200 ALL mega successful pianos used for their INDIVIDUAL and DIFFERENT piano sound. What was Roland's "Piano" brand then.....the D-50?

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-06-2009).]

You make excellent points, Frog.

If I was listening to a recording of a piano player, on a digital, I would be hard pressed to tell you what kind it was.

I'd be more likely to be able to tell the difference between an acoustic and a digital, but even then, it would be tough, depending on the quality of the digital and the condition (tuning, voicing) of the acoustic.

Put these instruments in a band setting or even played along with an MP3 or SMF, and things would get even murkier.

Then mix in the various player techniques...

I do know when I "like" a piano sound.,,,what it's from matters not.

I like the sound of the default V-Piano, but to tell it apart from an RD, or a CP, or a Korg especially in a recording...it'd be tough.

Ian

Spot on King Frog ! I applaud any company that can take old or new tools be it physical modelling, sampling or any combination and push forward the boundaries of technology in terms of music but just because something can be done in a different way to get the same or very similar results doesnt mean that it should be used that way.

In the case of the T2 and 3 Squeak the old technology was there before , yes i grant you, but never had it been put together in such an intuitive and expressive way in any hardware keyboard to produce such authentic sounds. The VPiano uses old technology to produce great piano sounds. But great piano sounds already exist in the bucket load on hardware electric/stage pianos. Velocity switching is just a technique to fool the ear and it does so extremely well. In normal piano play no one is going to hear velocity switching or looped samples. Physical modelling is just another technique to fool the ear and it does so very well too. But you will have to pay 3X the amount to use PM for minute audible differences. I listened to the Vpiano demo closely and i listened to the RD stage pianos closely. Did the Vpiano stand out significantly if at all.....only if you believe that the Emperor has new clothes on..to my ears. remember that story .....

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-06-2009).]

Yes..., you can hear velocity switching and looped samples in sub par piano patches and even in piano patches that are supposed to be top knotch. Just slowly increase your playing strength and hold that sustain pedal down.., you can hear it on some

The short lived Alesis Fusion I had..., well let me tell you there was nothing holy about it's proclaimed "holy grail piano patch". Bad velocity switching and even uneven velocity between the black and white keys!

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 02-06-2009).]

The Yamaha CP70 came out in 1976...Roland's electronic pianos at the time were MP-600 Electric Piano and the MP-700 Combo Piano.

The RD-300/200 series did not come out until 1987...ten years later.

Ian

I cant wait for the
New Roland "V" Arranger...

Notice this one, Ian...? Maybe not the one trick pony you have been harping about....

Yes, I saw that Diki...but these tones don't seem to be playable from the one trick pony's keyboard.

Diki, it's quite clear you are impressed with this instrument...I was at first, but the weight, bulky size, and lack of controller functions put me off, but apparently this doesn't bother you.

Are you considering buying this piano?

Just a thought, but wouldn't this be the beginning of a line of instruments, and probably designed to showcase what's going to be some of Roland's next instruments?

Why not wait and see, and perhaps this technology will wind up in an arranger?

Ian






[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-06-2009).]

It'll depend on my playing it, when it finally gets in stores near me (probably quite a while), my financial health, recording schedule and whether maybe I can convince the studio to chip in. Yes, of course, I don't really do a cocktail piano act at the moment, my G70 does the job as well as can be done by a sampled piano, IMO , and I don't haul an 88 around now, so unless my gig type changes radically, I probably won't start...

But, as I said, I am considering selling my REAL piano to go towards this. As accurate as the escapement and repetition action looks (have to play it for confirmation, of course!), as accurate and customizable as the piano sound itself seems, it seems like the first thing with little compromise between it and a REAL piano. But if Little Feat called tomorrow (just a dream!) and wanted a pianist, this is the first thing I'd want to play! Let them worry about cartage!

A nice house gig, though? Sure, I'd LOVE it! (bet you Russ is drooling already! )

BTW, the V-Piano has MIDI outs. Loop through a laptop (you're going to use one anyway for the editing) and back to the other sounds (sounds like the same specs from the RD700G, which have some awesome Rhodes and other sounds) and there's no reason it can't be as good as any stage piano. In fact, run it into one of the software arrangers, it could rock!

It's not going to replace my G70, but under the right circumstances, I'd love to gig with it. But I still see it as primarily a studio and home piano (which it looks designed for). Is it expensive... yes. Is it heavy? Yes. Does it do something that nothing else can do? Yes. "Nuff said!

In the meantime, enjoy your S900 piano sound. You are SO qualified to criticize this instrument!

Thanks Diki...I do enjoy my S900's piano sound very much.

BTW...it's rather disconcerting to see that one has to find workarounds on a $6000 piano...why, even an entry level FP4 will at least let you layer sounds.

Of course you realize the V-Piano plus four decent sized monitors...it outputs to four speakers (two for stereo, and two for the ambiance of the room) makes it easily the size of an actual real piano.

Truly a niche market product, and most definitely for the home and/or studio...I can't see you lugging this around at nearly twice the weight of your G70...and you can barely get that on a stand without help.

As Froggy aptly said earlier on in this thread, "If you've dropped enough cash, you can probably hear anything you want."


Good luck, and keep your stick on the ice.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-07-2009).]

LOL... No-one EVER helps me put the G70 on the stand. Despite being over 50, overweight and out of shape, I don't have even the slightest problem picking up my G70 and putting it on the stand unaided. In fact, even if I have help moving the G70 in it's case (handles on both ends), I refuse to let anyone assist with removal and mounting on the stand. THEY are more likely to drop it, slip or mishandle it than I am. Does that make me a strong person, or does it simply point out the ridiculousness of claims from many of my age and below that 45 lbs. is just TOO heavy for day to day use? I guarantee, almost every day of the week, you lift SOMETHING in your life heavier than that. If moving a sack of fertilizer, or moving some furniture, or picking up a keyboard amp or PA rack is doable, why not your main instrument..? Having to chose lesser instruments, with lesser keybeds to save 15 or 20 lbs. once or twice a day is a compromise I, at least, am not willing to make.

It has never been dropped, fallen or been damaged in any way. And I guarantee that in ten year's time, it will be worth more than your S900 (as a percentage, even!) if you liked that enough to keep it that long. Which you don't!

And, let's face it, if you DID like your S900 piano, you wouldn't be hauling around a P85 and using THAT'S piano sound. You would have an 88 controller and still use the S900's...

That's good to hear Diki...but don't you think the V-Piano would be a tad unmanageable? It is bulkier than your 76 key G70 as well as being nearly twice the weight.

Just something to consider....wouldn't it be nice to be able to take the instrument on ANY gig, not just have it sit in your home or studio, especially if you love playing it?

Concerning the P85 piano...it is pretty light(25 lbs); lighter than most 88 weighted action controllers...I use it mostly as a controller...it has MIDI and I use it to play the S900's piano sound which works very well with it...plus I can use the Audio to USB recorder in the latter.

I'm not hurting for money, but there is no way I'd pay six grand for an instrument that would just be used in a studio or my home.

Ian

Depends on how much studio work you were doing, Ian

I wouldn't be surprised at some kind of integrated stand, legs, whatever with this unit. Just like the much heavier Rhodes. You put the legs on it while on it's back, and lever it upright. We did it back then with no problem...

So far, of course, I haven't played it... Reality sometimes doesn't match the hype (like when I first played an S900!). But two things I consider essential to good piano playing (as opposed to doing it on an arranger) are the escapement and repetition, essential for rapid passages and rhythmic playing, and the inter-string detuning, which varies the character of the sound more than anything else. Old Motown has an utterly different degree of tuning stability to say a John Legend track.

Nothing else on the market even allows ANY control of this at all, let alone this degree of variability. And variability is the key in studio work. You don't want to sound identical on different tracks. A real piano will breathe and change during the day, and over several days. You can't get it to sound identical no matter HOW hard you try! But a sampled piano...? Ditto, ditto, ditto...

Compare Rabbit Bundrick to Elton John (early Elton!), to Dr John, you won't hear the same piano sound. The V-Piano finally allows this degree of variability, all in the same piano! Heck, just what the studio spends in piano tuners alone (at least once a week for the Steinway if used heavily) would pay for the V-Piano over a year or two!

I don't think this is a day to day tool, but most top players (and at least SOME lesser ones like me!) consider a master of ONE thing better than a jack of all trades (but master of NOTHING ).

After all, a real pianist only plays ONE thing. The piano. I see a boatload of these going to those who want the sound of a real piano (including it's idiosyncrasies and tuning variability) with none of the disadvantages... After all, it is still ten times less than a good real piano, even if it is nearly five times more than an S900

Some see a reduction in weight as a sign of progress. I prefer to see an improvement in SOUND and playability and realism as the sign...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-07-2009).]

That's true...it was far better than the hype made it out to be...that why I use an S900 instead of a T2/T3.

As for the V-Piano...time will tell...sure is a lot of money, of course the R&D has to be paid.

I think it would be far wiser to wait and see what this technology winds up in...no doubt subsequent instruments will be far less bulky, much lighter, and far more versatile i.e. additional sounds and/or expansion slots.

I hope it works out for you...the weighted action alone would be a immense(literally)improvement over having to use the G70 as a piano on a gig.

Ian

NOTHING could match the hype you imbue on the S900, Ian!

Heck, even it's piano sound is better than the FantomX, RD700, G70 eh?

Hey, it works perfectly for my needs...if that's hyping it, then I'm guilty as charged.

I liken the PSR-S900 to a powerful new Toshiba laptop and equate the G70 to a bulky 4 year old Dell PC.

They can do the same things, but I prefer something that is actually portable.

Ian

Maybe a two year old laptop...

That's no spring chicken you're playing, Ian!

Come to think of it, we are BOTH playing the latest TOTL (or in your case, MOTL) arranger our respective manufacturers make, aren't we..?

When your S900 has caught up to the advanced features and sound the G70 has, we'll revisit this. Shouldn't take more than about 100 years, at this rate!

Newer and lighter ain't necessarily better!

My description is more accurate...live with it.

Older & Heavier ain't necessarily better either

The corollary of which is:

Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance.

Don't be fooled.

Unless you are an NFL center.

Or an elephant.

Pound for pound, yours IS the better arranger, Ian...

That don't mean that Oscar De La Hoya would last long against Mike Tyson (in their primes!)

Casio's work perfectly for some people. I guess that makes them equally as good as your S900, doesn't it..?

..snd equally as good as your elephant...er...G70, my friend.

ANY Instrument is only as good as its Player

I know it is for me.

We all use what gets the job done, and has the sound we like to hear.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-09-2009).]

V-Piano wins coveted "Best in Show" award at NAMM
The V-Piano has earned the coveted "Best in Show" award at NAMM 2009, in recognition of its breakthrough technology. "This is an unbelievable sound. The first time I heard it, I said it's like sticking your head inside a Steinway D," raves panelist Greg Billings of Steinway Piano Gallery. "If you thought the V-Drums revolutionised electronic drums or the V-Guitar revolutionised guitars, this is beyond." You can catch the V-Piano at the UK launch, held at the Arnolfini Theatre, Bristol on Wednesday 4th March - ticketed entry is free and the show starts at 11am.

Anybody going tomorrow to the big launch? It looks to be very intriguing indeed. If a Steinway staff member can say something so astounding in regards to the new Roland V-Piano then you know it's gotta be extra special. If you remember, I said roughly the same thing i.e. "closest thing ever to a 9' Steinway D" in keyboard form. And that was from just hearing it online from a compressed audio demo on Roland's site.

I predict the V-Piano will be a HUGE success for Roland, even at the high price tag that comes along with it. Why you say?? Well, for one thing it sounds like a real acoustic grand Piano yet is actually semi-portable (especially when compared to the real thing). Yes, yes.. (as the crowd echos from the bleachers) Okay, another thing is the price would actually be considered a "steal" compared to buying a real 9' concert Steinway D right?

The V-Piano will be a HUGE seller to churches in my opinion too, i.e. those who want a "real" acoustic piano sound but might not have enough room (or resources) for the real thing.

Yes indeed! Yamaha and Korg must be drooling with envy (or a panic attack.. ) right about now I would think. Ain't competition grand!

We'll see what Yammie or Korg can come out with in "ten" to "twenty" years or so, to challenge it. For now though, Roland is admirably sitting on the king's throne enjoying the magnificent view from the top of that glorious mountain called achievement. Bravissimo Roland!

All the best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 03-03-2009).]

And Mike imagine what it would sound like through the Podium 802's :eek;

This is probably just the start of some killer piano related hardware coming from Roland. I have a strong feeling Roland in the future is also going to release a killer ARX Piano Board for the Fantom G. It probably won't be a V-Piano but will most likely have killer editing options. Roland has raised the bar with the V-Piano. To have someone from Steinway make such a positive remark is a good sign.., plus the V-Piano can be had for MUCH MUCH less than the cost of a real acoustic grand piano.., and will let you do SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more than a traditional acoustic piano.., digital, or current workstation based piano. The bar has been raised and it will be very interesting to see Yamaha and Korg's answer to the V-Piano.

Right you are Donny. It is advisable to use the best speakers possible for such a fine instrument.

Most churches would already have a good quality sound system in place most likely though. For individual users who need their own speakers to use with the V-Piano, I would hope they would splurge on a good pair. Speakers really are the most important aspect of a rig apart from the keyboard itself, in my opinion. It helps if one can actually play the keys too.

All the best,
Mike

Most churches music departments struggle to raise cash for instruments and the ones available typically belong to the musicians themselves. If you think the V piano is going to be bought by churches in any great number then you are sadly mistaken.

But good luck to Roland with this product.

The V-Piano is set up to use four decent sized monitors...it outputs to four speakers (two for stereo, and two for the ambiance of the room).

I imagine Roland will recommend their own monitors...what type is anybody's guess so far.

It would probably be unwise to skimp on speaker quality, especially at this level.

Ian

so get 4 802's

Absolutely.

Consider as well the state of the economy, and the likelihood of churches using this instrument gets even smaller.

Korg and Yamaha have already been making products that use the same technology the V-Piano is based on...they will wisely wait and see where it goes, and then if successful, they'll make their own versions.

The early bird may get the worm...but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Ian

I would doubt that you need the secondary speaker pair in a church, or, to be honest, any decent sized room. Sounds more like a feature for surround sound film score and recording use to me...

To be honest, I wouldn't anticipate any imminent cross pollination to other products. Roland generally allow exclusivity for a few years on any new groundbreaking technology, V-Drums, VK organ, V-Guitar - all of these took several years before they made any trickle down appearance. Stands to reason, really, as Roland need to recoup the R&D before going down-market...

The future does look promising, though.

Funny the S900 is ALL the Piano I need

For arranger use I really like the S900's piano as it fits so well in the mix.

For solo piano (using the P85 as a midi controller) it is less effective, but serviceable enough for now.

Ian

Hahahahaha! Good one.