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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

AFG Music,
Interesting...please tell us more..AND please post some demos for us to hear, especially styles you have written.

Lee S.

Thank you for a real explaination of the MS by a user who explains what it is capable of doing.......

One HUGE benefit for MS owners is the ability to actually speak to the BIG BUY..., and put in FEATURE REQUESTS directly to the big guy! Got a software program you'd like to see tailored to the MS..., email DOM and if the call is big enough he'll try to make it available.

Too bad you can't get to the big three like this. The larger companies don't listen half as well to their actual customers as DOM does for his MS owners. Dom may not have the money of the big three for style development.., but he surely picks up in other areas the big three can't touch.

Thanks for posting your opinions. I will say however.., DO NOT let some people here pressure you into posting your work. We'd all like to hear one.., but I will say that MS owners get their asses kicked here by members for demos.., and it doesn't take long for MS owners to be turned sour from the pressure and constant trash talk from people here.

AFG music is probably part of that 2% of arranger users that Diki mentioned who is CAPABLE and WILLING to spend hours upon hours creating styles...

Let's face it, if the T3 came packed with Yamaha quality Afghan styles, you would in all probability be doing what the rest of us do... Using styles that ALREADY fit the music we play.

Once one is FORCED by lack of availability to write the styles we need, then of course, yes... The MS is the perfect choice.

But if there WERE two or three arrangers easily available (and cheaper) that had great Afghani styles already in them, would you still create your own? Especially if it took major 'pro' chops just to equal these off the shelf styles? Or would you do what the vast majority of us in the West do... simply be grateful that someone with MUCH better style making skills than we have has already done all this work for us?

And maybe moan that Dom hasn't got around to doing this yet for the MS?

AFG Music,
Very glad to have you join up.....Sounds like you are happy with MS for what you want to do...that's SUPER!

Also sounds like you actually enjoy making styles and have the talent to do so. Bravo to you!

Lee S.

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

And squeak... MS owners only get their asses kicked (if you want to describe it that badly) because they DON'T post any 'proof of concept'. They just talk, and talk and talk...

Once any music is posted, it gets the same brutally honest assessment that any other arranger gets. If Yamaha and Korg and Ketron and Roland users are willing to have the sound of their work scrutinized, debated, slammed and praised, what's so goddamned special about MS users? Why is ONLY their work immune from criticism? Or praise... Let's be honest. If the music made on the MS lived up to the hype all it's owners give it, surely we will all stand back and gasp at it's amazing sound?

I will CERTAINLY give praise where praise is due... I've done it in the past (LONG PAST!) when good sounding music is posted on the MS, as I have for everything else regardless of arranger used.

What is so thin skinned about MS users? Bill accepts the slings and arrows hurled by many of us when he posts music done on the Wersi that sounds like a Casio. I slam Roland for terrible GW-8 videos (done by Roland, no less!), but we keep doing it. Only the MS gets a pass?

I can't remember a good piece of music that got an undeserved slam except by some idiot fanboy, and his comments always get drowned out in the sea of approval from everyone else. What do MS players have to fear? Unless they think that what they have created does NOT stand up to scrutiny equal to any other arranger. And Lord knows, none of them will admit that

Pay no attention to squeak... If you have some music you are proud of done on your MS, then post it. Let it be judged as others have. The only thing you have to fear is... fear itself!

Diki..., there are just as many others here to talk talk talk and never put up up up either. It's not the responsibilty or obligation of ANY MediaStation owner here to pony up demos from the talk talk talk.

All the anger and attitude about posting MS demos get directed at the wrong people on this forum. The MS owners are not responsible for marketing this thing. All that anger should be directed at DOM (no offense either Dom) because he's the BIG GUY.

Let the MS owners talk as much love about their keyboards as all the others do here. Those who own keyboards by the big three don't deal with the same pestering sh*%& that MS owners do because the big three have done a very good job at providing THEIR OWN marketing. Why shouldn't the MS owners be allowed to go on about their keyboards here as other members are. Start shooting all those demo requests and demands at the company who makes the keyboard. I'd love to hear some high quality demos too.., but you're not going to get anywhere by constantly bashing the MS.., then demanding it's owners "put up or shut up". It's not THEIR job.., that's Doms (again no offense Dom).

Who wants high quality professionally made demos by the manufacturer that YOU will never replicate ever?....we want to hear demos from the "owners" who use them so that you can see what the average everyday player can produce with the MS or any keyboard out there ....enough hyped demos let's hear the real deal.

Thing is, squeak, although some arranger users other than the MS users don't want to post (as is their right), enough of them DO that it is easy to get a general impression of the arranger, and the sense of pride that these players have in the sound of their work...

When WAS the last MS user music posted here? It's been quite a while. I can't, for instance, ever recall a user Qranger piece and that's been out a while, and everyone who uses it says how great it is. OK, let's HEAR how good it is... Talking about music is like dancing about mathematics. It is not the right medium to convey accurate objective impressions.

If you are not proud enough about your arranger to post any music as an example, don't expect us to simply believe everything you say. There have been enough proud Roland, Yamaha, Korg and Ketron users to get a general impression of their arrangers. But the MS remains a mystery.

And I HATE a mystery...

Of course you're never going to be able to reproduce them exactly, but THEY'RE THERE! Decent USER QUALITY demos don't even exist on the MS site. THIS IS WHERE IT AT LEAST NEEDS TO START. It's not right nor is it fair to expect or demand ANYONE here post up demos to promote a keyboard. If they're willing.., then I say that's great.., but there sure as hell a VERY fine line between the pressure placed on Mediastation owners compared to the other makers. MS owners here get met with a lot of anger and demands because of the lack of demos found ANYWHERE on the net.

Where's all the bickering about seeing demos for the S900, G-70, Korg PA line, Ketron, and Wersi with as much pressure behind them as you see for MS owners to post???? Look.., I want to see user demos too.., or even hear them..., but it's not right to demand this. If everyone here put their nutsack back in their pants and stop waving all this machoism around perhaps we'd see more demos (sorry to be so blunt.., but some of you guys here make this a very obvious ego driven sausage fest.., again sorry to be so blunt) It's like every member is now met with "hello how ya doin.., drop em lay it out on the table so we can measure blah blah blah". I remember once upon a time one of our female members has brought up this macho attitude present here with all the "put up or shut up demands".



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-12-2009).]

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

I hate a mystery too Diki.., but those proud owners of the others are supported not only by the makers demos being all over YouTube.., but 1000's of user demos available as well.., MANY WHO ARE NOT MEMBERS HERE ON THE ZONE TOO. There wouldn't be such a heavy demand here if more demos were made available by the company and if the user base was larger on YouTube.., BUT it's not. I too would love to bury the mystery..., but still don't feel the put up or shut up attitude is going to help. Since when has PROVING yourself and your keyboard become a requirement on the Zone. How is all the wanker slapping really going to help people out with real questions?

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-12-2009).]

Well, me for one! Of course, I only expect it from the manufacturer, but I DO feel that any piece of gear needs to demonstrate the superiority that it claims. If the manufacturer themselves can't hire a top pro to show it off (or the top pro can't GET it to shine ), why should anyone take their claims seriously...?

You wouldn't buy a car the maker claimed went from 0-60 in under 4 sec. if they NEVER showed it doing it, and no owner ever did either, would you?

Yamaha, Roland (occasionally ), Korg and Ketron ALL know the value of demonstrating what is the BEST that any product can achieve. Personally, I LIKE having these things to listen to. Then if I can't make something as good, at least I am not tempted to blame it on the gear, and buy something else!

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

AFG... sorry, but I didn't quite understand you. You never seemed to answer whether, if there WAS a great Afghani styled arranger already available, whether you would have bought it, or would prefer to develop the styles entirely by yourself...

I know it's hard to imagine yourself in that situation, I imagine if Afghani music is your meat and potatoes, you have ALWAYS had to make your own styles. But although we in the West might appear to be lazy about style creating, I can assure you that, if you had access to as many great styles in the genre that you DO play (as we do), you might have found yourself doing what most of us do... simply playing all the time, making money, performing, rather than spending much of that time creating the styles that you need.

Add to that that, as you know from your Roland, a lot of the styles in the ROM are VERY difficult to better, or even equal (if you can make better western styles than the ROM ones, please send me a few!). Now imagine that this hypothetical Afghani arranger had styles in it that you were hard pressed to equal. Would you still gig on less good ones that you created, or wouldn't you simply go with the best ones you could find?

If you had to make a choice between using the MS with all it's great features, and making your own styles, or using a different arranger that had MUCH, MUCH better Afghani styles in it than you could ever make, what would you do?

Because that's the dilemma that most of us in the West face...

And the reason the Big3 are so big is that they make products that people actually want to use

If this is an indictment of arranger players in general, so be it. We are what we are

As for recycling technology, well, that's because it is the technology that we all WANT... Personally, I hate Roland for discarding most of what I thought were their best OS features! Not exactly 'recycling' going on at Roland. Plus, of course, if you don't change your arranger lemming-like every new model, and coax ten years or so out of each one you get, your next model will be a considerable leap over what you have...

Oh, and squeak... it doesn't matter whether it is here (actually, it is NEVER here, because the forum doesn't host files ) or Youtube. What matters is that it is getting posted SOMEWHERE. Tons of great Yamaha user stuff, Roland, Korg, etc.. But the dearth of quality MS examples is universal. So which is it? You CAN'T make great music on an MS, you don't WANT to make great music an an MS, or you don't want anyone to HEAR the great music you've made on the MS?

It's GOT to be one of the three, doesn't it?

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

Diki you and I BOTH want to see and hear demos.. but what's not fair is MS owners here get the full force of the anger from Zoners about the lack of MS demos EVERYWHERE. It's not their fault nor their duty to post them. I'd still like to hear and see them.., but I won't pressure them into proving anything.

I still say that people need to send about 90% more of that anger and demand to DOM. It's his product..., he's trying to sell it.., HE needs to be the one meeting these requests..., NOT HIS CUSTOMERS

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 03-12-2009).]

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

Squeak...Dom reads this forum religiously...

If he hasn't picked up on the underlying needs of arranger players from what we all have said, I can't think of where else he's going to pay any attention to it...

And personally, if I say I can do something on a keyboard, and someone says 'bull!', I am only too happy to illustrate it ain't. And take my knocks if I am exaggerating

And AFG... you don't give yourself or any of us anywhere NEAR the credit we deserve. I honestly believe I CAN hear the difference between a great player on a poor arranger, and a poor player on a great arranger. And I believe that most here can also.

As much as the arranger itself contributes to most peoples' playing style (primarily, LH chords, RH some kind of solo sound), I find it pretty easy to ignore a lousy RH solo, and concentrate on the style itself. You can't? How can you transcribe music if you can't ignore one player and concentrate on another? I am sure you can...

In all fairness, if you can't play as well as the factory demonstrations, how on earth can you make styles as good as the factory ones? Often the same players are involved... or at least ones with at least as much skill. Here in the West, we have to not only compare our demo playing with that of the factory demonstrators, but we also have to compare our style making skills with those same talented people. Perhaps this is something you don't have to endure, when making Afghani styles, but it is a real downer to have to compare your work with the top guys (and you have to do that every time you switch from a ROM style to using your own) if you make Western styles.

AFG, Dom already has all the Roland styles from G70, E80, whatever (they are all out there). If he wants to demo how much better a Roland style sounds on an MS, he certainly doesn't need me to send it to him!

Look, AFG, what harm is there in upping something to illustrate that some Roland styles sound better on the MS? You say you've done it. OK, let's hear it. Skip the RH if you want... To be honest, I would EXPECT much older Roland styles to sound better on the MS. They certainly do on my G70! I'd be interested to hear whether any of the G70 ROM styles sound better on the MS, having dynamic drums in them, but up what you can...

I can assure you that if I claimed I could make an MS style sound better on my G70 than on the MS (I can't, because I have no access to the MS styles in Roland format!), if anyone said that wasn't true, or simply expressed skepticism, I would not hesitate an instant to rip off a quick example and post it.

But that's just me. I don't expect anyone to just take my word for it...

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

I don't say there are NO good styles in the MS. I say there aren't enough GREAT ones, ones that sound as good as a T3 or PA2Xpro (or even my G70). I simply go to the MS demo pages, listen to the styles there, then listen to my G70's ROM styles, and speak frankly about what I prefer.

The SOUND quality of the MS styles is great... 24 bit converters, nice big soundsets to use, but then I PLAY my G70, and the dynamism and balance smoothness of what I am hearing simply makes the 24 bit stuff moot.

There are a few great styles in the MS, in all probability. Trouble is, I don't need a few... I need a LOT.

Look, I've already said we don't need to hear a RH solo. Anyone can run the style section with one finger if needed... surely your chops are up to demo-ing these Roland conversions you've done? The darn thing even has an audio recorder built in. Take you five minutes to do. What's five minutes compared to how long you've actually spent posting on this thread since this morning?

It really sounds from how you post that you have made music on the MS that you are proud of. Why would you NOT want to share?

Just saw the last post... NO, NO, NO, NO, NO! I do NOT want to hear how good a player you are. I want to hear how good an arranger the MS is. Play some chords, hit some fills and variations, keep it simple, forget the RH altogether. I already know what I can do with my RH. I want to know what the MS does with my LEFT...!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 03-12-2009).]

Don’t do it AFG Music.

Don’t fall in to the trap. Don’t do a demo with the MS and post it hear.

Do a search for MS demos and you will find quite a few topics where MS demos were done. Contrary to what others have misrepresented here.


Putting up an MS demo here would be like giving King Frog those new speakers to listen to when there is an already a stated opinion that it is factually impossible for them to sound good. There is a predisposition that they are bad.

Don’t do it AFG Music there will be no good served by putting up MS demos.

Diki my frind you need something clean ib your head.

First a lot of styles on gig. That you do not need.


A lot of styles for your new songs. Yes you need , but that means that you need also your personal sounds that need to be tweek for your personalisation.


I thing you can make this presonalisation at any kind of style in 25 minutes with your knolage..... and that is easy to set with any VST on MS or sound that is inside in MS or all over the world.

Diki at last what you are doing is really great. You are opening also mind of all users of MS for new advantages. I'm really greatfull for your support here.


Please you do not need to say that MS is not a potencial for all your new songs that you will do in future.

WE USERS KNOW THAT THIS IS FUTURE KEYBOARD WORKSTATION WITH ALL WHAT WE NEED EVEN WITH ARRANGER, AND THAT YOU WILL NEVER KNOW OR MAYBE YOU WILL OWNED ONE MS

Than I will like to listen to your demos too and i will say may point of view.

But in this moment if somebody send here some really good demo you will be agianst it and I know that also Richard and other can post really good things, but they do not want.

I thing you are afraid something new. THAT IS MEDIASTATION

This is a complete joke at this point.
People being warned now not to upload demo's and others are just afraid to.

SynthZone members, you guys need to stick together and stop thinking your on opposite sides. All this fighting is being caused by Lionstracs complete lack of understanding what we as musicians need, and their inability to post something as simple as a god damn quality demo. Please don't direct your anger at each other over this. Direct it at the cause, which is Lionstracs.

Lionstracs..... No more video's recorded with a shite camera mic. You need to get serious and start uploading quality demo's or you won't have any business in the future.

If your incapable, then get someone who can do it.

You have a good product on your hands but YOU and YOU alone are killing it with your unprofessional presentation.

Regards.
James.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 03-12-2009).]

Sorry but we users do not have any "really good CAM" to show you that this is really good thing. I can only show you this at home or on stage, but that is far far away from you.

But I will be really proud if you can come to me and visit me. Than I can show you all my MS as it is really.

Hi Magica Alfa.

You don't need to have a professional video camera. You just need to record the Audio directly into your PC and replace what the camera mic picked up with the quality recording.

Heck, the MediaStation itself can do this so that would be a really cool way to make the video.

Here's me playing a KORG M3 live, the piano is only used as the controller.
Hi Quality DIVX 7 http://www.irishacts.com/video/cainteach.divx

Or Low Quality YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGwH7E_fn6c

The sound quality of my YouTube is still better than anything uploaded by Lionstracs and that was me just messing around at home.

Regards
James.

Oh and thanks for the advice, Magic.

How foolish of me to need plenty of styles on a gig... I guess I could do it all with SMF's, or perhaps do a bunch of songs with the same style. What an idiot I've been all this time, trying to sound like a real band (that would never play two songs identically).

Thanks for showing me what a waste all that effort was...

Look, there's some things that Lionstracs needs... Firstly, someone that can PLAY WELL. How can you decide what a real player needs, if there is no-one at the factory who can? At least Ketron have great players working for them, who probably have a LOT to do with input about what a real player actually wants (as opposed to a software designer) in an arranger.

And secondly is someone fluent in English, and capable of talking civilly to potential customers about their legitimate needs. It is not Lionstracs (or yours, Magic) place to tell us what we should, and shouldn't want in an arranger. It is their job to listen to the vast majority of us, and design something that achieves that. And if they don't, to quit insulting us because it fails at the task WE want it to do.

BTW, my playing has been available to listen to for years up at the roland-arranger.com site. I am not afraid to post to support MY opinions. Why are the MS owners so reticent? If you are going to goad me about MY playing, you'd better have some of your own up, my friend...

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

Thanks for the upload, AFG. Good to see SOMEONE here with a pair!

I would like to hear a bunch more too. This style only demo is great to get an idea about the arranger, rather than getting covered up by a too loud solo as often happens!

I hope me being frank about this demo won't deter you from posting more...

I heard some weird transitions on the fills, , sounds like something is getting cut off abruptly, form time to time. And I'm sorry, but in honesty, do YOU think this compares favorably to a T3 or PA2...? Really?

Oh, and I'm sorry, maybe I'm not up on current usage, but this doesn't sound like ANY beguine I ever heard...!

The trick really is for the MS owners themselves being frank and honest about their OWN arranger. I am brutal even when it comes to the G70... more brutal, in truth, because I've got one, and want it's flaws fixed, and potential buyers aware of it's shortcomings. But honestly, AFG.... Come on, you can break the code of omertá

Does this REALLY impress you? You HAVE heard a T3, haven't you?

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

Downloaded the .wav. Played on Mackie studio monitors.

And a well written style doesn't CARE if you are in major or minor...

Have a real close listen through some of the fills. Some kind of glitch going on... You didn't cut and paste this together, did you? It's continuous recording, isn't it?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 03-14-2009).]

Thanks for posting AFG Music. More people need to post music on the forum . It might change the whole nature of the discussions that ensue. This settles the matter for me . Enjoy your instrument.

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 03-15-2009).]

You get what you ask for.
Ask for a style with no RH no chord changes and of course it is going to sound like that.
Show me a T3 style recorded like that and we will get the same review.

It is a disservice to demo a product in the way it was not intended to be used.

Hi AFG

Could you upload the file elsewhere, as the site you have chosen distributes Malware, and I would not touch it with a barge poll.

For those that have already downloaded it, make sure your Anti-virus and Anti-spyware is up to date, and run a full scan.

Regards

Bill

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

What are you referring to, genesys? Did you actually READ my post (I sometimes wonder )...

I made NO criticism of no RH part. That's what I wanted. Unlike you, perhaps, I NEED to hear what the arranger is doing to be able to judge how well it sounds AS AN ARRANGER. I am all too aware of what all the VSTi's sound like. And a great or a poor RH performance can alter perceptions of the arranger.

No offense, but I believe that I CAN put up a LH style only demo of a T3 or a PA2 or a G70, and have something better than this.

Isn't that the POINT of comparison? To find out what is better? To find out what does the job, and what doesn't. To find out what sounds like REAL players playing with you (due in part to the quality of the sounds, but in a large part, due to the skill of the style programmers) and what sounds like uninspired, flat robots.

Here, for instance is a page of T2 sound and style demos (click the link for Media clips). So far, AFAIK, there isn't a T3 page like this, but this is fairly close to the T3 anyway).
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%25253D62119%252526CTID%25253D205500,00.html#

Anyway, all efforts to the contrary, we are finally getting some more recent audio demos of the MS. And that is a good thing. Now, members here finally have a chance to make up their OWN minds about how the MS sounds, rather than simply listen to TALK from it's protagonists, and lousy demos from it's manufacturer...

Whether this convinces us of it's competitiveness at being a real arranger or not lies in the hands of objective review. Rather than biased opinion.

And that's a GOOD thing, isn't it?

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 03-15-2009).]

That was exactly my point (which I guess you did not get)
If the demonstrator in any of those T2 demos just held down a C major chord with no chord movement and no right-hand it would have sounded as good as that MS demo.


Unless some persons just use their arranger to play one chord and do not play any RH, then a demo with no chord movements and no RH is deceptive and misrepresenting the product.

AFG,

Thanks for posting. I'm glad you're enjoying the Mediastation, its a great instrument. What type of music do you play most?

Feel free to contact me offline if you perfer, my contact info is listed in my profile.

Richard

Sorry, genesys, but we'll have to disagree on this one. Personally, I think that even if you just hold one chord and hit variation and fill buttons, you end up with something maybe better than this on a Yamaha. Those Mega voices make an enormous difference to the realism of the guitar and bass parts. Not to mention the vel-switched drumkits.

I'm not looking for normal operation. To be honest, that often masks other problems (glitchy fills and variation changes e.g., remember the Korg issue).

If this is all AFG wants to show, that's fine. Yes, a few changes would have shown whether there are different patterns for maj/min/dim, etc., and how well it transitions between them, but that is usually a function of how well the style is written, rather than the arranger OS itself.

But response to 'late' chords, fill and variation timing issues are squarely on the arranger OS...

But style balance, drumkit balance, EQ issues (on my reference monitors, this had a very tubby bottom) and many other things can be checked out BETTER with the simplest of demos...

Sorry I didn't quite grab what you were saying. You didn't actually articulate that particular point...

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[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 03-06-2010).]

It's scary! There's been a loooong time since I posted for the last time here... I see the same old discussions that lead me to quit posting and participating many months ago... although I feel I left some good friends here (some of them are gone too).

How big do you think the patience of a moderator can be, when he waits for more than 500 messages to lock a topic?? Nigel should win a "gold patience" award...

This is a forum with a terrific potential, but I have a dream... I wish the attitude around here could be more constructive...

Cheers from Portugal.

-- José.

Jose,
I agree with you.
Lee S.

Here's a "cheers" to things being JusT fine here at Zone the way they are!It is a mans cyber rec room not a day care.If you become offended,i suppose you should be happy with whatever new room that awaited/awaits you,if not then what are you doing back here whining with a block of cheese?
Kudos to Nigel!
Kudos to SynthZone!
Kudos to those who do the freedom of speech thing!

Kudos to those that stick with a forum through both the good & bad times!


[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 03-18-2009).]

If you feel there needs to be more constructiveness here, you need to be part of the solution. Endless comparison isn't really constructive, it's comparative.

What WOULD be more constructive, in your opinion? Tips and tricks for playing? Sharing music for the joy of it? Advice for the newbies? Gigging secrets? Speculation about the future of arranger technology (not talking about what is already here)? Ideas for new arranger features that might be useful?

These wither on the vine. Lord knows, I've started enough of them! But nothing gets the forum's juices flowing more than an all out pissin' contest...

But try for yourself... rather than bemoan other's negativity, create the positivity yourself, and see where it goes...