Well, we haven't had a "war" on the forum for at least 24 hours so I thought I would submit a topic - actually one that could be serious - so here goes.

Considering what is on the market today - what is the "best" arranger (at any price point) which weighs under 30 pounds and is suitable for live gigging? Take into consideration things like overall sound quality, available styles, live on the fly adjustment capability, and build quality.

hammer

Yamaha S900 hands down.

John,
Please tell us why - what are the strengths of your favorite?

Hammer

Hammer, I just feel that the S900 for me gives the best bang for the buck. As close as you can get to a Tyros series unit without all the bells and whistles & higher pricing. It also has many useful features & the SA/Mega voices are outstanding. It's so easy to use, edit, and the support is by far unsurpassed for 3rd party styles, etc. I am not an expert, but as a home user I enjoy playing the S900 very much.

Diki quote: "Well, as I have always said.... I use my arranger in just about every way you CAN use an arranger! I am NOT one of the 'styles only' purists, nor SMF only, etc.. I do about half my show with SMF's, a lot of which are custom. Some are derived from electronic drumming (I have a Hart Dynamics electronic drumkit and hire good drummers to play parts in) and I put the rest of the parts in myself. Some are made from arranger play, recorded on the built in Sequencer in the G70, transfered out to Cubase, and then dealt with linearly (like you, I don't always like the repetitive nature of the basslines, and substitute my own, edit fills so they don't repeat, etc.).
But a fair proportion of my act I simply use the arranger's drums, play LH bass and live keyboard parts (that keeps it challenging!). I'll also play without any backing if it works for the song. I usually play with a guitarist, so that aspect of automatic generation isn't all that important to me (but I'll use what I DO have to play rhythm if he takes a solo).

But primarily, at least this year, I am playing in full bands, and don't need any auto stuff at all (but I DO need a great sounding live keyboard that is quick to make setups and adjust live, while playing)...

So, you can see, flexibility and ease of use are my main criteria.

While there are many advantages to using SMF's (you pointed many of them out), there ARE a few drawbacks. At least with Markers in the SMF, you get a CERTAIN amount of ability to adjust the form on the fly, but nowhere near the ability of the style section. But with the style section, you can utterly deconstruct a song, change it anywhere you want on a night by night basis. You can insert other songs into the middle, medley them, decide that 'tonight, I want a different rhythm for this song', and just be generally freeform. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't, but with an SMF, it tells YOU how you are going to do the song tonight...

As to using 'song styles', I am afraid I'm not a big fan of those. They sound like the record, something I am deliberately (most of the time!) trying NOT to do. If they want the record, play the record! I prefer to acknowledge (and have the audience recognize) that they are NOT listening to a DJ. Putting your own 'spin' on things, playing to your OWN talents and strengths rather than someone else's wakes up your listeners to 'Hello! this isn't the CD! But it IS good...' and get the audience to connect with you.

My arranger and computer system have always been one, as far as I am concerned. With the USB connectivity, it is the matter of a few seconds to blow something across and work with different tools... The G70 allows me, at least, to work on header stuff (including detail drumkit editing) without leaving the arranger. But for more detail sequence work (if it is beyond the very capable built in sequencer) I don't mind the transfer chores. Overall, from what I have seen on other arrangers, I would put the Roland's sequencer, style creator/editor and header editing (Makeup Tools) at BY FAR the best AND easiest to work with. If I HAD to work without a computer, there is little I could not do. Something you can't say for a LOT of arrangers....

My G70 has a harmonizer mode where you actually PLAY the harmony line you want into a sequence track, and it goes there regardless of being parallel or not. Not that I use it, really. I HATE most harmonizers. By the time you get the voice as loud as it SHOULD be, it's artificial nature becomes too apparent, IMO. We have an Orville in the main studio I work, and I don't even like THAT much! And that's a $5500+ harmonizer...

I agree that styles have their weaknesses, but they also have their strengths. As do SMF's, or even live bands! Adjusting to them, using what they do well and avoiding what they don't do well is the secret to making good music.

If you are looking for a keyboard that covers ALL the bases well, including holding up well in a live band situation (something that quite a few arrangers don't have the kind of sound you need, or OS's that don't make that easy) as well as being good at arranger play AND SMF's (Roland's have always had a lock on that one), you could do FAR worse than to take a good look at the G70. Used, very good condition ones can be had for almost half the price of many current arrangers. It's heavy, but that aside, has done me stellar service in OMB, duo, full band and studio.

What it DOESN'T do is audio. If that is essential (or a sampler), you might need to look at Korg.

Hope this helps."


Confirmation that the G70 Rules.....

AMEN!!!!!!..

Hammer quote "Considering what is on the market today - what is the "best" arranger (at any price point) which weighs under 30 pounds"

I had to bump the weight a bit..I mean really...how can you want the "best all around" and not weigh over 30 pounds...

Hammer - as you may well know, I have a G70 and think it is an awesome arranger and keyboard. But to answer your question I would have to say that the S900 looks to be the best bang for the buck. Yes, the Tyros 2 is around 30 lbs and does a lot more than the S900, but I feel my money would be better spent on the S900.

Now, I have played neither, but owned a 2k and 3k. Knowing the OS and the added features on the S900 and Tyros 2, I might spring for a S900 before a Tyros.

Fran,
Keeping the weight limit in mind - what are your other choices?

Hammer

I thought the criteria was: "what is the "best" arranger (at any price point) which weighs under 30 pounds.

The G70 is 15 lbs over the specified weight...sure, it's a great arranger, but most people who have/had them, have stated it is too heavy; especially in a road case where it would tip the scales at around 60 lbs...yikes!

If you want the "Roland sound", Roland's E-60/50 are far lighter at 29 and 20 lbs respectively, and offer a lot of bang for the buck...so would the newer Prelude and GW-8 as both are under 30 lbs as well.

If it's the Yamaha type sound you want coming out of your speakers, then Yamaha's PSR-S900 which has even more features, weighs under 30 lbs, and has the advantages of SA and Mega voices, and lots of 3rd party support would be your "best" bet.

Yamaha's Tyros3 is 33 lbs, and over the limit...so is Korg's PA2XPro(39 lbs).

Korg's other offerings, the PA-800 at 29.3 lbs, is a contender, but I really can't recommend it because I have only heard the demos and have not actually played it...same goes for the Korg PA-500.

The topic question asks what is the "best" arranger at any price point, but, remember, there is a weight restriction.

Ian

OK!!!!!!

I vote for the S900, as long as I don't have to play the keys...and..stay away from the hand clap...Oh yeah..tape over the drum icons too....

With the restrictive criteria,
The Gem Genesys xp (module)
Total integration between styles, SMS and Audio (wave and MP3 songs).
You can use the sampler to integrate your favorite sounds in to styles and sequences.
A full functioning 32 track sequencer and full style creation and editing.
Great sounds and sound editing.
Lots of storage space and a way to save lots of set-ups for different types of gigs.

It has a useable harmonizer.
you can view words to a song and the music on a screen.

Seriously guys,
think about it - the state of arrangers right now is rather bleak. What are the real choices out there to choose from? Seems like the market has moved to the TOTL keyboards with no thought given to the serious gigging musician or what they want in an arranger. The question I posed really addresses the need for a line of products from any manufacturer that can handle most needs on a gig and not take a tank to transport. By the way, I own two of those TOTL products - guilty as charged. But in a discussion I had today with another gigging pro we were trying to determine what keyboard besides the very TOTL keyboards seem to have all the flair and hype. We could come up with none.

Hammer

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'live gigging', doesn't it?

Personally, if you mean playing in a live band, you are going to need to play piano parts, and sometimes piano parts AND a split for brass, strings, synths, whatever. This basically means a 76. There are few of these under 30 lbs. Perhaps the E60 would do, but personally, I feel the G70 adds SO much more that the extra weight is a necessary compromise.

If, by 'live gigging' you simply mean playing an arranger as an OMB outside your house, well, everyone is going to tell you 'Use what I use'! I think the PA800 comes in under your weight limit, doesn't it? That is a worthy alternative to the S900, with far greater capabilities (you CAN use OS2 DNC sounds like the PA2Xpro) and better keybed and construction. And a far more 'live' sound overall than the CD-like Yamaha's (great for quiet gigs and the home, harder, IMO, to make a 'live band' sound)...

However, when weight alone dictates what you choose, and precludes many worthy entrants (T3, PA2Xpro, G70), taking a good look at how others manage the weight can pay dividends. Personally, I use dollies and leverage to make sure I NEVER actually lift the G70 in it's case in it's entirety. Place the case on a chair or raised area to get it in and out of the case, and you don't do your back anywhere NEAR the stress that pulling it out of the case on the floor....

You might also consider that, in all likelihood, you regularly lift more than 45 lbs. and don't even realize it. If you have carried a child over the age of two or three, you have carried more than 30 lbs.. If you have lifted a child four to six years old, you have lifted 45 lbs.. Half of the people on this forum get as emotional about their arranger as they do their grandkids But somehow that doesn't extend to lifting them up! They weigh about the same!

I personally think that if weight IS the primary factor in what you choose to play, it doesn't really MATTER what you chose, You have already decided that there are more important things that how it sounds, and how it works, and whether it does the job as well as can be done. Might as well pick the cheapest, you have already ruled out the best!

Diki,

You actually make my point- which is- why dont' we have a really great arranger within the weight limits I set as a criteria? By the way, I have owned the PA1X and a wheeled case - damn near crippled me getting it to gigs and back. Yes, there are more important things in life than having the "best" of everything.

You brought up another good point - how is the keyboard being used - so lets limit the discussion to those of us who use the arranger for what it was intended for - the OMB performers. Frankly, if I wanted to play keyboard in a band I would not use an arranger.

Hammer

you need to define what you mean by 'all round'. If you are looking at

1. weight,
2.flexibility ,
3. design for live playing as a OMB
4. Excellent song database
5. quality of sound
6. Ability to import external sounds from most of the major sample formats
7. and self contained meaning that you can use the instrument live, in a studio and by itself with all editing features, sampler, sequencer style creator, complete sound editing without connecting to a computer and using a bunch of external software and it all being contained in one box .... then literally the only choice is the PA800

Now what do you mean by 'All Round' :-)

Diki,

How do you deal with stairs? I know ramps are more common now, but they aren't always conveniently where you want them.

How do you personally transport your G70 to your OMB gigs; by car, van, or truck?

Spaalding,

I like all the criteria you mentioned except number 6 - sampling. Otherwise I think all of them are good ones.

hammer

Hi Hammer...I Somewhat agree with You and Your Friend...NONE!...With the Stipulations You layed out...Not knocking any keyboard in general, but I think the Manufactures can do ALOT better...Many have talked before about synths coming in at less weight and quality (Roland)76 Keys...Yamaha 61 Keys etc...I just purchased a (Still in the Box yet)Casio PX-320 Priva for My Wife and I to Play with also...26.4 lbs 88 note Weighted Scaled hammer action!...Now if Casio can do it in an 88 hammer action, SURELY the BIG Guys can do What We are Discussing???...in a Arranger!....My Two Cents....Harold...P.S.. I'm Getting the Priva out of the Box Now!

My E80 weighs even more. But I have a wheeled case for it and can't see the problem. As I've said before, good, solid giggable build quality is more important to me than weight. I like my gear to last. And those kids' keyboards just don't inspire confidence when you play con brio. They're all over the place!

Con Brio...one of my favorite tunes...

Korg PA800 - does it all - meets all the criterion.
Ciao,
Jerry

Well, that about does it! The Korg wins.

Thankfully that's over...now, back to my trusty PSR-S900 and another rendition of Con Brio.

Well, for live gigging to be only OMB, that sure discounts a lot of other ways to gig!

But now you have narrowed it down to a better defined goal, you are STILL basically getting 'Use what I use!' from everyone. Thing is, none of us would buy what WE thought was less than the best for what we need, but mysteriously, most of us manage to use different gear. Perhaps we have different ideas of what IS 'best'?

Your initial post recognized how this was nothing but an excuse for a pissing contest (and yet, apparently, I am the one dragging this forum down ), and here we are. Surprise, surprise!

Look, I'm in my mid-50's. Weight does affect me. But so does less than stellar sound. I carry my arranger for a couple of minutes a day. I play it for HOURS. I can appreciate weight being a consideration if you are infirm, but there are plenty hale and hearty here that seem to be able to lug around fifty pound speakers but blanch at the though of an arranger lighter than that!

Stairs, Ian, are not that big a deal, especially in the Gulf Coast, where everything gets wiped out and rebuilt every few years thanks to those nice hurricanes... The handicap access laws have made ramps and elevators far more common than they may be where you work. I also, especially this year, find myself playing live a lot more (in the sense of 'without a machine') so if something comes up that is tough for me, I get a bit of help. But, push comes to shove (pun intended!) I have never found a place where I couldn't get the beast into.

Perhaps they COULD make something at the level of quality and touch I prefer at under 30 lbs., but I haven't found it yet. To a certain degree, rigidity and solid actions come at a weight penalty, unless you are prepared to pay a fortune for exotic composites like carbon fiber... The real estate of arranger layout makes them a LOT larger than the stripped down sizes that pianos can be, meaning that they will be heavier.

But if you take a look at pro WS's, you'll find a large number of them over your weight limit, and many that dwarf my G70! If PSR touch and construction are sufficient for you, you'll be fine. But at least let those of us that DO prefer better than that put up with the additional weight that that entails. Strokes for folks, and all that. I don't look forward to the day that ALL arrangers are made as flimsy as PSR's, just to keep the senior citizens happy.

Nor do I Diki...thankfully the S900 is tough enough to gig with...so was my 3k...I'm only 60 so I'm not officially a senior, but I have applied for an Indolence Pension...

You didn't answer my question on how you move your gear when doing one man band gigs.

What vehicle do you use...a van, car, truck...I know you don't take the G70 on the bus?

I think you doing okay to be lugging the G70 around...I know I wouldn't do it...it doesn't offer any more than what I'm using, and I'm in the business to make money and music....as easily as possible, hopefully.

Diki and Ian,
My post was really to get everyone thinking if there is any Pro-level arrangers being made today by any manufacturer that is easy to lug around. I was a drummer(percussion major in college) in my hey day and remember all to well dragging my equipment up steps and stairs - days when easy access was only a dream for some folks. Today I just can't do that and don't care to put my well being in second place to common sense. But that aside - the question still remains - what gear if any is really suitable for the gigging pro who does OMB gigs that is at or under that 30 pound limit?

It appears most of the guys here play only the TOTL keyboards and are not up to date on the next level down.

Hammer

...and that next level down is where you will find the bread & butter boards. In many ways they are the "bang for the buck" you are looking for. I've already said I thought the S900 was the best of that bunch, but one certainly could not go wrong with any of these:

Yamaha PSR3000, T2
Roland E50/60
Korg PA500/800

among others.

Maybe so, Hammer, but I use the S900 exclusively, even though I have a Tyros3 as well...I just like the former's compactness, lightness, and, most especially the features, which aren't that far off a Tyros3.

Donny uses an S900, and several friends of mine who do OMB are using the S900 as well...not just because it is a good "bang for the buck", but also because it's a hoot to play as well...great SA sounds, and the mega voiced styles.

I prefer the MOTL arranger because, of course,the investment is smaller, and the features now rival the TOTL boards.

Plus, they are inexpensive enough to allow trading up every few years, if you want.

My S900 through the two Bose L1's, in stereo, sounds absolutely incredible...even I am jealous of me.

The best thing is all my gear, including stands, two Bose L1's, bench, and the S900 all fit in my Honda Accord sedan, and still leave the front passenger seat free...so I don't need to have money tied up in a van, either as a main transport or a "gear only" vehicle that would most certainly be harder on fuel, as well as insurance etc.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-10-2009).]

Hi Hammer...I Guess What I was trying maybe to explain in obtaining your request 30 lbs etc is maybe...(Remember these are all good keyboards) but to Improve at lest for Me Example: Tyros line, drop some of the excess bulk,narrow it up, maybe even add speakers it should come in at 30 lbs. Great Keyboard!
Korg PA-800 Just put the Great Tyros Keybed in it, Slim the chasis up a bit...You have A Great Keyboard!
Roland....Put all the G-70 workings in the E-60 slim size with better speakers...Should come in very close to 30 lbs...It would be a Great Keyboard!

We went to a cookout this evening, but I had about 20 min. on the Privia PX-320.. Pretty Impressed for $600...First thing I Liked in short notice...Weight, 128 Poly,Nice Grands and other Voices PLUS You can Hold the Voice with sustain,etc while You select another Voice!!!!I LOVE that...No cutoff...Also Strings Hold Sustain with pedal same as Roland I Love That also...Very Nice Keybed action...That's all for Now...Harold

Ian and Cassip,
I have owned only four keyboards since I started playing again(I walked away from a professional career in 1975) - a Yamaha Motif, a Korg PA1X, and I currently own and gig with both a Tyros 3 and a PSR3000. I have tried the S900 several times but just don't get the "buy me now" urge for it. Everytime I take out my PSR3000 I wonder why Yamaha can't produce a Tyros 3 product in a PSR3000 size instrument.

What got me started thinking about this was a special gig I played doing only "DJ" work. Yea I know, real musicians don't to "DJ" work. But what happened was I have a regular senior gig I play and the residents are all from small towns around Dallas. As such, they are really into hard core country music. So I decided to put together an hour of the really old stuff - things you don't even hear played on the classic country radio anymore. Well, the residents absolutely loved it and responded with enthusiasm and applause after every song. Kind of surprised me actually.

But the real kicker was me leaving the house without a keyboard. All I had was my laptop and one of my Bose Compact speakers. Talk about a light load. So I got to thinking about the available keyboards out there and posted my question.
My personal conclusion was there are not any really high end sounding keyboards in that weight range and I was wondering what all of you thought.

Hammer

Well Hammer, I guess we'll have to wait and see if the next PSR S-Series is a Tyros3 in a lighter cabinet.

Should be due out in the late fall, perhaps, or first of the year, but that's just a guess...might be called the PSR-S950.

Rumor has it that it will have after-touch, and SA2 sounds, as well as a bunch more SA1 voices, a master compressor, and well over 400 styles.

So, maybe you'll get your wish.

As for the time being, the S900 is perfect for my needs, and I'm not sure if I'd go for a new S-series...but, that depends on how "new" the new is.

I'll take a module of any of the afore mentioned arrangers and/or an Audya module. My first choice would be a Korg PA2X Pro. My second first choice, Audya, Roland G-70 and the Yamaha Tyros. Saturday, I used both the PA800 and the Ketron Midjay Plus - great combination sound-wise, style-wise and feature-wise.
Ciao,
Jerry

[This message has been edited by Jerry T (edited 06-11-2009).]

BBBB...I really don't want to hijack this thread cassp, just answering some questions, hope it's Ok?....BBBB...The Best thing to do is go and Try the Privia PX-320 Stage Piano out for Yourself,and read reviews...I have not spent a whole lot of time yet with it... Everything it offers...But what I have tried I think it will meet My Wifes needs very well and Mine also...My wife is a Pianist only...I will use it if needed with an arranger...I have Arthritus in My fingers and hands, playing Hammer action Only for a long length of time is out of the question even on light touch...I'm 60 plus...I'm Ok with short term use,etc...For Me, We have owned Technics Stage,Yamaha Stage P-80,Roland RD-150 Stage,RD-700GX,RD-300GX Piano's...I'm VERY Happy with the Piano's in The Privia...Nice Samples...Long Decay...I use it Through a Mackie 1202 Mixer and Near Field Monitors.....Map price is $599 I offered $519 Delivered...Got It!

My Next choice, more than twice the money, But compariable weight,etc Yamaha CP-33 About $1100 or so...(Friends have One)Never played one but has same Sampled Piano as Pricey CP-300...As soon as our Home renovation is finished I'll be adding an Arranger again also...Good luck Harold

Well, I guess the thing is, it's easy to get a list of those arrangers under 30 lbs.. Manufacturer specs are easily Googled.

But which one is 'BEST'? For a start off, hammer, you ask which is 'best'. Well, naturally, you are going to get a predominance of TOTL arrangers, as they ARE the 'best', at least compared to their own line!

But then you go and complain all we are recommending is TOTL (except for the S900). But that's what you asked for! The 'BEST'...

There are so many 'bests'. Best bang for the buck (probably S900). Best 'live band' sound (toss up between Korg, Audya - still in beta, though - and Roland, IMO), best all rounder (as in, good for live band as well as OMB), the G70 (IMO).

But under 30 lbs., your choices get limited. As Donny would probably say... the 'best' arranger is the one YOU are the most comfortable with. Seeing as how you are familiar with Yamaha (and own two already) that is the OS you are probably best sticking to. And the T3 is only 10% over your limit... a measly three pounds more. For the 'best' TOTL Yamaha they make, surely that's worth it?

For those that think that weight can be shaved from keyboards without losing anything, think about this... Let's say that the individual keys themselves in a G70 weigh ONLY one ounce more than the keys for a regular synth action. There are 76 keys. That's FOUR AND THREE QUARTER POUNDS of extra weight. Little things can add up. Little things that make a dramatic difference to how something PLAYS.

Better sliders, better, bigger displays, better buttons, more buttons, all these add up. Not much individually, but added together, the pounds just keep coming... It's like dieting! Just how much less ARE you willing to eat?

Ian, I have used minivans and smaller SUV's (Cherokees, that sort of thing) for transport. Having a back door to wheel up to and slide in and out helps. Side door vehicles make this task too difficult, IMO. And, you know what? Whenever faced with a venue that DOES have a lot of stairs, so far I have been lucky that the owner/managers of these places realize the difficulty of their load ins, and if I am struggling, will lend me a barback or waiter for a few minutes (my G70 flight case has handles at both ends as well as the middle). Like I said, I haven't had something I COULDN'T get into yet!

If that new PSR coming has aftertouch, won't that change the type of action they use? But I guarantee you'll LOVE it, no matter what!

Yes your are right.

A module would meet the criteria for this post.
It is beyond me why more manufacturers and users don’t see the benefits.

Best? Contrary to what some people think, saying something is the “best” is all subjective.
For example, Some people say Roland’s G70 has the best key action. Other say Yamaha S900 has the best key action.

So, do you own a vehicle for transporting your gear, or do you rent (lease) or borrow one from a third party?

I can't see the action changing all that much, and I'd be very surprised if after-touch is offered...it is, after all, a rumor.

Besides, like anything else, it's a matter of adapting...I play five or six kinds of actions in the run of a week(or day) so it's no big deal.

I find the Jupiter 8 the weirdest, but only because I've become accustomed to having velocity sensitivity on all the other 'boards I play.

It will be interesting to see if Roland's next G-series will be lighter...I'm betting it will be a bit, and I'm also thinking it will have a different action...maybe one from one of their synths?

Of course, the G70 is fine as is, but you and I both know how companies can change things without any rhyme or reason.

Ian

Way to solve that conundrum would be to get ten people to play BOTH actions and see what they prefer...

In all fairness, a LOT of people, not just Roland owners, comment about what a great action the G70/G1000's is/was, and a lot of people comment about the flimsiness and sponginess of the PSR's... Each certainly has its' adherents (and you can play well on either), but taking the average comment over time might get at least a CERTAIN amount of objectivity to a subjective issue. You can't judge anything on what just one or two people say, but when a whole bunch tend to say the same thing, you are at least on a bit more solid footing...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 06-11-2009).]

A lot of people bitched about the G800 and the G1000's weight (they were only four or five pounds lighter that the G70, I think), and Roland didn't change the action then. I think enough people have praised it to hopefully ensure it's survival. The weight gain on the G70 had nothing to do with the action. Yes, I think that a return to the type of case that the G1000 had would be a good thing (it was a hair lighter, but FAR easier to keep clean and looking good), but on the whole, I just don't see it as any kind of priority criteria.

Most of the bitching comes from those with featherweight MOTL or BOTL arrangers anyway, so lowering the weight (even if it COULD be done without lowering the quality) would have little impact on sales, IMO. Let's face it, for what a lot of arranger players want in a sound, the Roland's aren't really going down that path anyway. Those that like Yamaha's aren't going to change to a Roland unless it no longer IS a Roland...

Losing a brilliant keybed to save weight won't make a damn bit of difference unless Roland get serious about some kind of GOOD DNC/SA voicing capability (the Atelier fails to impress me at all), and the integration of Guitar Mode into the style section, and gives Mega voices a run for their money. But Roland probably WILL alienate all their current users if they downmarket seriously, just to save weight. We are already used to the weight and construction, and like the Roland's pretty much the way they are. Most of the people that ditched the G70 gave several other reasons and not JUST the weight for the move...

This is pure speculation, but I think the reason they might change the action, is to save money.

The G70's keybed is not used on any other instrument...at least I think that's what you said on another thread a while ago.

Why make an action solely for one instrument, and tie up a production line?

I wouldn't be surprised if a modified E-80 keybed was used instead, or one from a synthesizer (hopefully not from the Juno Stage, as it has no after-touch...maybe they will use the Fantom G7's keyboard?

Most companies are run by the bean counters, not musicians...it's unfortunate, but that's seems to be how it is, and things get changed in order to save a few dollars on every instrument, which of course adds up when a lot of them are sold.

I think Fantom only weighs 36 lbs, so that's at least a 10 lb reduction from the G70...I know the guys I knew (only three, mind you) that had G70's, sold them because they were a hassle to transport.

I do know, that since the OMB and home keyboard market is mostly older players (50 and up), the weight (or lack of) seems to be quite important.

Well, given that Yamaha's new S70SX is 44 lbs., at least there are CERTAIN Yamaha divisions that consider this weight still 'portable' (it's a 'stage' piano). I don't see why Roland have to change. The G-series has ALWAYS been aimed squarely at the gigging pro (same guy who'd buy an S70SX) rather than the 'home' player, despite their abysmal marketing lately.

The G1000, at 40+ lbs. used to rule the roost back in it's heyday. What happened? Did we all suddenly get myasthenia gravis?

What you SHOULD be asking is, if Yamaha can make a P85 at 25 lbs., why is the S70SX over 44 lbs.? Fix your own house first, Ian..

Diki,

It's a pity Roland was unable to make the G70 around the same weight as the 29 lb E-60, especially since the former doesn't have speakers, and, being the more "pro" of the two, would more likely need to be transported...of course, the G70 was made before the E-60, wasn't it?

The new 44 lb Yamaha S70X weighs less than the G70, yet the former has the same number of keys, and sports a weighted, balanced hammer action keybed.

Now, if they put the 25 lb P-85's action in the next Tyros, and reduced it to 76 keys, we could have a 76 note, graded and weighted hammer action Tyros Pro that, quite likely, could easily be around 30-35 lbs.

That would be manageable.

I'm pretty sure that idea has made the rounds of Yamaha's board room once or hundred times...but, will they make such a wonderful instrument?

Your guess is as good as mine...probably as likely as Roland making a 76 note "pro" G-series arranger as light as the E-60.

Let's hope we see both products in the near future...there's no need of us wrecking our backs at this point in our lives.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-12-2009).]

While we are slightly off topic...

The single most critical factor for a keyboard to me is the key feel..

A board can be the best sound on the market..if it has poor keys, and yes I am referring to PSR type keys, even the slightly better E-50 keys...the sounds do not get the delivery that a great key-bed can give....

A great key-bed will even make less stellar sounds more playable and enjoyable..This is not folklore...It has been a proven fact by most musicians I have know for more than 25 years...

Weight to me, means more durable and better quality...You guys can spin all the nonsense you want about lighter constructed instruments are just as durable..they are not..

If Roland decided to make the top of the line keyboard without the current key-bed, and made the case of plastic, to make a board lighter to please "home players", I will stock up with a back up G70, and pass on the "new" Roland...

As solid as the E-60 was, it still was not in the same construction class as it's big brother, let alone features..If Roland decided to use the E-60 case and key-bed, added the "other" features that are offered on the G70, it would definitely be at the top of users "want" list, It would top out over the PA800, 76 keys being one edge...but if they made the updated G70 future model with same case and keys...that would be where I spend my dollars..


As I mentioned ..to me there is no other better overall arranger....

I have been hauling around the Roland over 40 pound arrangers since day one of the G800 days, followed by the G1000, and now the G70...I was over 50 when I used the G800 (new), and have owned the steel cased, super keybed boards since then...

Maybe I am in better condition than most guys here over 50...for sure I am in better condition than the guys over 65...

66 is right around the corner..

I think I will haul the MediaStation and the G70 to my gigs... ..Why?
Because I can..

Yep, "haul" is a fitting word for sure.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-12-2009).]

Firstly, only a one pound difference. What type of case you put it in will make more difference than that. Secondly, if Roland DID put out a G70 at the same weight as the E60, there would be a riot from all the G-series users about what a cheap and shoddy instrument it was. We LIKE it the way it is... And, I repeat, VERY few dropped the G70 JUST because of the weight. I've already pointed out that JUST adding the G70's action probably ups the weight six or seven pounds over a PSR action (only 61 notes) and increases the case size and need for stiffness (weight needs support). Plus, essentially, the E60 WAS an under 30 lbs. G70! Much of what was good about the G70 was rolled into the E60. And even THAT didn't sell well (more due to Roland's inept marketing than anything else, mind you... no-one could even FIND them). If the E60 wasn't a hit, a 30 lbs. G70 won't be either! 40 lbs. is about as low as this is ever likely to get. The G1000 was stripped down, smaller case, plastic, same action as G70, elegant and as small as it could be made. And IT came in at 40 lbs.

I'm sorry, but a 35 lbs. 76 T3 is only two pounds heavier than it's actual weight at a plastic 61 Unless Yamaha have helium filled, carbon fiber molded cases in the wings, let's get REAL... Put the 25 lbs. P85 action in a T3, it will add probably close to 15 lbs. to the current weight. Remember, it's not JUST the action you are adding. It is the increase in case size to accommodate it (a VERY deep case unlike the slimline P85).

You know, being a Yamaha salesman, and all that, I bet you could look up the shipping weight of replacement actions for the T3 and P85...

But it appears that even 35 lbs. is NOT considered 'manageable' by many here... let alone the 40-45 lbs. it is more likely to come in at!

Personally, I think Roland are no more likely to alienate their existing customer base (that LOVE the G70 enough to forgive it's weight) by bringing out a flyweight 76 TOTL arranger than Yamaha are by bringing out a portly 76.

They already tried it in the E60 and it was found wanting. Yamaha tried the 76 in the 9000pro and it was found wanting. Maybe both these Japanese companies need a little Western 'stick-to-it-ness'

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

I think it is very possible; seeing it to fruition, is another thing.

Casio and Yamaha have weighted action 88 note pianos with speakers that weigh 25 lbs...Casio's even has accompaniments.

So if an 88 weighted hammer can weigh that much, or, more accurately, that little, it is possible to make a 76 note arranger with hammer action, without speakers, that would be around 30 lbs.

Several years ago no one ever thought we'd see weighted hammer keyboards under 30 lbs...let alone 25 lbs.

I think Yamaha would go for the weighted 76, not semi-weighted like the 9000 Pro...but, of course, I'm only guessing.

Most of all, it will depend on the demand and if the 76'ers from the other manufacturers are selling well...I'm told they aren't right now, and my source is pretty reliable. Of course, that can all change...markets are never static for too long.

Ask any G70 owner what they dislike about their instrument, and 9 times out of 10, it is the weight...that's what the salespeople tell me when the have someone shopping for an OMB instrument...some don't mind, but I'm sure there are plenty who do, and move to something lighter like a PSR or Tyros.

One person is not going to lug around a 60 lb (in the case) keyboard very willingly, except for hard core guys like you and Fran. Let's face it, the lighter stuff sounds just as good, and in some cases, better.

I'd happily stay with the S900 if suddenly arrangers were not being made anymore, but they will be, and I like playing with new stuff...I think a lot of people feel that way.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 06-12-2009).]

If the lighter stuff sounded better, Ian, I'd already be using it! If by 'hardcore' you mean me and Fran aren't willing to accept ANY compromise in the sound no matter how heavy the arranger, well, guilty as charged.

Our choices are pretty slim, anyway, if you accept that it our right to NEED a 76 for the way we play... E60, PA2Xpro, SD-1, Audya, Wersi. That's about it, isn't it? Maybe sales are low on 76's because they don't make many?

I have to rule out Ketron... too barebones editing, and nothing other than those half assed guitars any better than what I have.

I still have issues with Korg's measly two fills and a break/fill on a four variation arranger, and once again, sound-wise, I am still unconvinced there's any improvement in my G70's basic sound. DNC looks promising, but they don't have the sounds for it as refined as Yamaha's SA, yet.

Wersi... Haven't heard much in the way of styles I like, haven't heard anything other than some top VSTi's that blows the G70 away, and I haven't won the lottery!

Basically, I'm STUCK with the G70..! And still loving it! I just hope, when my back gives out finally, I am working with a good strong guitarist! Because you will NOT want to be around me if I have to use some POS lightweight just so I can lift it

That's good, my friend...it's nice to see someone content with their gear...at least till something truly better comes along.

Only improvements I work on now, besides my playing, is style editing.

The beauty of spending a lot of time with one type of arranger, is that you think you know it inside out, and then, you find a new twist on something. I just learned a little trick with the groove function in style creator that lets me use a lot more style parts as donors...I've been busy with that these past few weeks, in between clinics, of course...I'm refreshing most of my styles, and that is sometimes just as good as a new keyboard.

I'm still blown away by the two Bose L1's...never thought I'd have a system that cost so much, but it does what no other PA will do, and if that's the price of admission, so be it...I guess I'm "hard core" too.

Ian

. .. ... here we go again, that word "BEST" does it every time.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 06-12-2009).]

The new Yamaha S950...Hands down...
(or a S900 until you can get one)
Lee S.

My Tyros 1 serves me well. I agree with Fran on the keybeds. The Roland keybeds are really good. As a pianist, I can really appreciate. I too played the G 800 and the G 1000. But at this point in my life I really like the T1. I like the Yamaha styles and the ease of loading other styles. The keybed on the Ti IMO is better that what's on the PSR's. So for now, I'm happy. Of course, I thought I was happy with my PA until I got the Bose L1 Compact. So who knows?

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala

Let's not forget the 1984 Casio CT8000..ahead of it's time..