http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uaeaqm4ER4

Regards,

Jerryghr

This is not an arranger-bashing post. I love arrangers.....just not for gigging or playing serious music. This video, as good as it is (in demonstrating what the S910 is capable of), reminds me once again why I have never used an arranger on a gig and probably never will. As soon as the 'big band' started, all I could think was, OMG, the chickens (children) of yesteryear's home (auto-accompaniment) organist have come home to roost. I don't think I've ever heard such perfect arrangements before. Unfortunately for me, that's the problem. It's almost like it defines artificiality, fake, plastic. I guess if vocals are the main focus of your act, then I guess they would be acceptable. But if instrumentals are your thing (sorry Ian), I don't think I could sit through a full set as a patron, no matter what your playing skills. That's probably why in all these years I have never seen one in a bar/club/upscale restaurant/church/school.

This may sound like bashing but it's really not. Most of you know my history with arranger kb's. But it's like the separation of church and state, except in this case, professional use and home/amateur/compositional tool use. Will I buy another arranger? Absolutely. I am an inveterate technology junky and although behind the curve in terms of component technology, the technology behind the successful integration of software and hardware necessary to produce a TOTL/MOTL arranger is nothing short of amazing.

Don't bother rebutting with all the old economic arguments for using them in OMB situations. I've heard them all before and I actually agree (on that basis). So as not to start this thread down another road, let me say that I thought the video did what it was intended to do and did it very well.

chas

I understand your views, Chas, and respect them wholeheartedly. All I can say, is I'm glad I don't quite feel the same way.

I don't/wouldn't play my S910 in the manner of the demonstrator, even when I am demoing.

On a gig, I never use factory intros, nor do I use factory endings...in fact, I don't use factory styles per se...I edit and re-assemble styles to my own liking.

So, I make my own styles, write out my own arrangements of cover tunes(of all genres)and manage to achieve my own distinctive sound on an arranger.

Is my my audience hearing me?

I believe they are...I'm playing the melody, and I'm directing the band, "live", through my chord changes, and I am adding another part via my left hand...I'm playing.

I'm sure there are many other SZ forumites who do the same.

That's what makes arranger keyboards so darn cool!

Now, would I would go to listen to just any arranger player? I wouldn't go to see buddy in the video, but I have gone to hear a friend of mine play arranger at his local haunt.

He plays a lot like I do, and I enjoy listening to his arrangements, and his take on tunes, some of which are ones I play.

He packs the place, and I can say with all modesty, I do the same when and where I play.

I'm sorry you wouldn't be there, so I could send you down a beer, but I do have to say, my arranger gigs have been some of the most satisfying times I've played.

I enjoy playing in a group as well; probably just as much, but in a different sort of way...I enjoy the interaction...and, I play fairly often in this manner.

We must remember these are home keyboards, designed to make as much noise as possible with one finger chords, and flashy intros and endings....they are fun for most people.

But, some of us are brave and foolish enough to take them out, and make a living playing them.

Bottom line...I use an instrument that could be a sin to the purist, but it is me I am trying to please, not the purist. I make no apologies. Period.

I like, and understand your views, and I do agree with some of them, but, as you can see, not all of them.

I know you're not being a curmudgeon...you're too young for that , and I'm glad you brought up this topic...things are/were a little quiet without the D&D turbulence.

Ian

You know, Ian. Since Jerry's original post had NO theme, I guess we were/are free to take it down any road we choose .

chas

I don't understand French, but I think what he said was the same same thing you guys just said.

Jerry

I don't understand it either, but I think he was bashing the Audya.

Ian

Now that is funny!!!

Sheesh! You guys need to brush up on your French. He was saying "Bring back Diki". At the very end I think he yelled, "Yamaha sucks" .



chas

Ian,

You guys need to get a proper education,I have a Master Degree in French, I understood every word and you are correct Ian he was slagging off the Audya and Korg, you need to listen very carefully to his words and watch his hand movements.

Tony


PS I also have a degree in centigrade and fahreneit

i hear what you say chas but that has nothing to do with whether you might use an arranger in a live gig or not. You could take your arranger out and play just keys , or use keys and a drum track or use it to trigger a click track for a drummer or some other preprogrammed sequence just like other gigging musicians do.You could use the arranger functions in their fullness or brfeak it down to just the elements you needed. For example i have some phrase pads that i have on my PA1X where i can trigger off a sequence or phrase by tapping the pad. even without the instrument being in arranger play IE the preprgrammed arranger styles are not active . so for example i could be playing a song like Earth wind and fires 'September ' with those nice brass stabs and i can trigger them from the key pad whilst playing live without having to change sounds on the main keyboard. Arranger keyboards are just so incredibly flexible but it is our imaginations that are limited and the fact that we are tunnel visioned in our thinking.

Most of the biggest contemporary bands performing today use some or all of the above functions in their performance and an arranger can do them all and so much more (but it doesnt have to). I know you are not bashing arrangers but i dont think enough of us give them justice either on par with any other keyboard that we might use. An arranger does not limit us to auto accompaniment in th left hand and solo's with the right. It actually gives us so much more choice than that and perhaps even over its workstation cousin.

Listen to this Korg demonstrator. The bottom example on this page is the long in the tooth Korg PA1X and the others are from other korg pa keyboards and taking us right up to the oasys and M3. Close your eyes and just listen then ask yourself whether you would feel anyway about taking any of these instruments on a live gig with you. Listen to them all .http://www.andreas-gundlach.de/korg/korg.html

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 12-05-2009).]

Yea,
He did say bring back Diki,I know your lurking Diki,and hope you will be back before Christmas.It aint the same without you and your counterpart.

Gilbert.

[This message has been edited by gilbert (edited 12-05-2009).]

Spalding, I agree with most of what you say and I, too, have a PA1x Pro (which I love and see no reason to change/upgrade), BUT, there is a reason that 99.9% of the world's top working pro keyboardist don't use them, and 99.8% don't even know what an arranger keyboard is. For whatever reason, despite all of it's flexibility and capability, it just doesn't seem to translate into the real world of professional keyboarding. That's not to demean the instrument or it's capabilities. I guess most pro's must think that whatever it's capabilities, for that particular function, surely a dedicated instrument (synth/ws) must be able to do it better.

As far as my being "tunnel visioned", perhaps. I don't think so. On a gig, I just like being the 'organ player'. I like being able to control ALL the music that's coming from my little space on the bandstand (when I say 'control', I mean PLAY - those little pad-triggered brass stabs you mentioned; doesn't the tempo have to be spot on for that to work?). More importantly (to ME), I like for the audience to know that WHAT THEY'RE HEARING IS ME PLAYING, NO IF, ANDS, OR BUTS. Again, that's a personal thing. I don't see it as being tunnel-visioned, just the way that I prefer to approach music when playing for someone else (who is paying to see/hear my performance).

This is so difficult to explain, because arranger players have become so defensive over the years (maybe for good reason), but they tend to divide the world into arranger-haters and arranger-lovers; very little room (or tolerance) for anyone in between. I'm one of those in between. I enjoy playing my PA1x (my Tyros 2, not so much), but have never been inspired to take it on a gig. Part of that is that arrangers are not suited to the type of music I play on a gig. What I normally play is 60/70's style jazz organ trio, in the tradition of Jimmy, Groove, Brother Jack, etc., and the audiences I play for like this kind of stuff (as do I) and would not be happy with an arranger version of 'The Cat'.

I don't know much about NASCAR racing but I'm guessing Jimmy Johnson doesn't require that his racing car have automatic parallel parking (although he might think it's a neat feature in the car he purchased for his mother-in-law - lord knows she needs it). And although the one he purchased for his mother-in-law will top 100mph, he still has no desire to take it on the track. Dumb example, I know, but you get the idea.

Getting back on track. Again, nice video. If my eyes were closed, I would've sworn it was a CD.

chas

no chas i wasnt refering to the yamaha video as although it sounded nice ia gree with you it sounded like a CD. I have no problem with that by the way. My comment about shutting your eyes was in reference to the link i pasted in my post which is where the PA1X arranger, the PA500 arranger, the M3 and Oasys all were being used in separate demos and you would not be able to tell the workstation from the arranger because of the cleverness in which they were being used.

I understand you would not want to use the arranger functions when gigging live but that has nothing to do with using an arranger keyboard. Afterall its just another keyboard right ?

i think tunnel visioned is appropriate because its the when we talk about arranger keyboards we still assume that they are used only in arranger play when they are so much more than that.

I used the example of the key pads in the PA1X to trigger set phrases or samples because thats exactly what is done with the Korg M3 and the Fantom x and now Fantom G by many live bands performing in stadiums today. They may send a click track from the keyboard to the drummer so he stays in the pocket and then trigger the phrases where they need them in the performance. So long as the drummer can play to the click track the phrase stays in time and can be triggered whenever the player wants to. This goes for audio samples too.

If you played your korg on a gig live , no drums, no guitars, not auto accompaniment , just you, would your audience not know it was you playing the instrumenet just because the keyboard had Korg PA1X Pro on the front ?


I Know you love that great organ sound and its probably why you may never gig with any other keyboard than your nord. It is not because the nord has arranger functions or does not have arranger functions. Its purely because of the sound and functionality and maybe portability as compared to a real organ.

Anyway i wont labour the point.

AS for the Yamaha video. I thought it was great and the sound was terrific. the demonstrator is on point and i have heard him do amazing things with the yamaha range. If he had a Korg he would probably wet himself :-)

Ian's not going to take that lying down .


[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 12-05-2009).]

Would he wet himself?

Depends.

Incontinence is not most people's idea of a warm reaction to playing an instrument, but, and I say this dryly, I'd rather play the Yamaha, thank you.

You play a Korg, Spalding, and you too, Chas...anything else we should be warned about?

You Korgians aren't half as peed off as the Audya crowd.

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-05-2009).]

The Arranger keyboard derived from the easy play features that were added to electronic organs.
As they could be made and transported cheaper then an organ, and took less space in the house, they became the new home organ replacement.
Arrangers were never designed for gigging, but testament to there capabilities a number of owners do gig with them very successfully.
When you see workstations demonstrated they show you how to create and makeup sounds and sequences, which shows haw creative they can be to prospective owners.
When you see Arrangers demonstrated, its intros, endings, press a button and it does it for you, and how easy none musicians can knock out a tune with a pre-loaded setup.
Until Pro�s (Top Notch) see how arrangers can be creative, then arrangers will never be treated in Pro circles as anything other then a cheap home keyboard with minimal potential.
The last statement might upset some folks, but I am afraid that�s the current impression out there in the real world.
As to the demos, the Yamahas were great, but just reinforced the easy play, knock out a tune impression that Pro�s have of them. (Mention Clavinova to a lot of Piano players, and you are looked upon as come back when you�ve learnt out to play properly)
The Korg demos I found very disappointing, so disappointing that I transferred them to my main audio system to see if they improved, (Computer speakers are notorious for ruining the sounds of keyboards) but I have to say they were still lacklustre, and didn�t show a fraction of what the Korg keyboards are capable of. (For me they just sounded like cheap boards from years ago)
Korg keyboards can produce some fantastic sounds, so my personal recommendation is; don�t take any notice of those demos and go and listen to one yourself, then you will really hear how good they can be.

Bill

In every word of French and every thing he does...he is telling us all to just buy this thing from him!... as his beautiful girlfriend with the killer body needs more of the $500/ounce French perfume and he is in need of a new toupe!

Oh, and his porche needs new tires...and his house needs a paint job and a shxxload of new screen doors!

He sold Me!
But in his next demo...he needs to have the girlfriend on display as well.

Lee S.

PS. He's good. Very well done and the S910 sounded great.

Chas,

You must not get out much. I have seen arrangers used in bar/club/upscale restaurant/church/schools. I've seen arrangers in Vegas. Ask Don Mason, Uncle Dave and many others where they use arrangers.

I watched the Paul McCartney New York special the other night. Now I would think Paul could get any players he wanted to perform with him. When he did "Got To Get You Into My Life" I was looking for the brass players. There were none to be found. It was all synth, plastic and artificial. Did it sound good? You bet. I don't know what synth or sampler they were using but it sounded very good.

The point is where do you draw the line? Do all the parts in a live performance have to be performed manually by humans? I'll include drummers in that group.

Is it ok to use electronic substitutes for parts as long as they are manually being played as Paul did?

Is it ok for me to add bass to my band using my pk5 bass pedals or is that too plastic?

Is it ok to use a B3 as long as you use a real bass player?

For most of us it is about the generation of a musical performance (entertainment and total sound)and using whatever tools neccessary to do it.

Tom

I hope no one on the Zone plays out with their keyboards--NO ONE! This is because I love it when my phone rings off the hook with folks that want me to perform at their parties, upscale restaurants, cocktail hours, etc... And, when someone asks if I consider myself as a one-man-band, I tell then NO! I'm a one-man-orchestra.

As for guys performing with keyboards in upscale restaurants, nite clubs, etc.., there are lots of them in MY area, especially in Baltimore's Inner Harbor and Little Italy. However, in Fells Point, which caters pretty much to kids, there are a few live bands, but mainly KJs and DJs cranking up the volume to ear-bleed levels.

Finally, the guy performing on the video said "Diki is here--please take him back!"

Cheers,

Gary

Tom, you missed the whole point of what I was saying. First off, I believe I have every right to choose not to use an arranger keyboard in a live gig situation (and not have to defend it, although I did try to explain why). Secondly, my observation of arranger players quickly becoming defensive at the very hint that an arranger keyboard may not be the best choice for all music and all situations. Thirdly, with all due respect, Uncle Dave is not the level of professional I'm referring to when I use the term 'professional'. There are community symphony orchestras and there is the Philadelphia Orchestra. When I use the term 'professional', I'm talking about the ones that play in the Philadelphia Orchestra. Fourthly (is that a word?), your Paul McCartney example has nothing to do with arranger keyboards and using STYLES, NOT SOUNDS, to emulate, simulate, imitate, a bunch of instruments being played simultaneously by one guy. All the rest of your questions are equally irrelevant because they focus on SOUNDS, not the process of arranger (style) playing (you know, AUTO-accompaniment). And lastly......your statement that.....
"For most of us it is about the generation of a musical performance (entertainment and total sound)and using whatever tools necessary to do it." may be true for YOU and a few others on THIS ARRANGER BOARD, but you should not assume that it is true for all musicians. The are quite a few out there that also care about the integrity of their performances and the integrity of the music.

chas

PS: I actually do get out quite a bit and am fairly active in my local professional music community. I stand by my statement. I know at least 100 local musicians and at least 20-25 keyboard players in the greater Atlanta area, and not a single one owns an arranger keyboard. This is not an indictment of arranger keyboards, just an indication that they are not very popular in my neck of the woods. Maybe they just don't get enough exposure, for whatever reason. No hard feelings. As is often said around here, play whatever you like (and feel good about it, Ian does ).

chas

Good point, Chas. Often it is a regional thing. My area has the highest sales of arranger keyboards, but there are only a handful of us playing them professionally.

I'm not complaining, as it means I get lots of work, for in spite of some musicians turning their nose down at the arranger player, we still manage to be very popular in certain venues.

My buddy (the guy I go to hear) and I have to turn down jobs, because there's just not enough time to do them all. I've decided to take the winter off and rest up and smell the roses, rather than go through another hectic season.

There seems to be less of a stigma towards the arranger player in Europe, and, in the case of Canada, the more cosmopolitan cities like Toronto, Montreal and St.John's NL.

Ian

Sheesh, Ian! Edmonton, if you include the metro area, has a population of over a million and getting regular gigs here is like pulling horses' teeth. I hate to say it but, for us arranger guys, it's Deadmonton.

That's strange, 124, I would have thought Edmonton would be more open to arrangers and arranger players.

I sell a lot in Newfoundland...of course, it's a port city and very diverse...wasn't unusual to see a pair of musicians with a full PC on stage, and them playing along with a squeeze and a guitar and playing Newfie tunes to Band-In -The Box jigs and fast waltzes.

When I was working in St.John's at A.L.Collis&Son, we had instruments at the store that no one in Canada had...the first E-series, the Yamaha Music computer (the CX5M), the first "new" digital Hammond...all kinds of stuff...and, we sold it!

Cape Breton is steeped in fiddle music and we sell a lot of digital pianos to the accompanists...you'd think arrangers wouldn't go well here, but I worked the biggest restaurant in the area for nearly 12 years running using various arrangers.

My buddy is 6 years at the restaurant he plays...of course we always kept the repertoire fresh, and even traded styles and arrangements.

I just had a gut feeling to take the winter off, and slow down a bit, which is not too difficult for me as I'm naturally lazy.

I'll start back up in May or June.

Still doing the Yamaha stuff, though...don't want to starve.

I'm glad there is a market for arranger players here, even if it's a bit small...I like working alone; I guess it's a control thing.

Ian

Chas,

Since we are numbering things:

1. You have every right to not use an arranger and I never said otherwise. No defense is neccessary.

2. Who ever said an arranger is perfect for every situation. I've never said that and neither has anyone else on this forum.

3. Professional musicians get paid to make music. There are many different skill levels and one can still be professional. Do you really expect that someone from the Philly Symphony will play "Tiny Bubbles" on anything anywhere? You didn't say symphony level musicians in your post.

4. The Paul McCartney example asks the question you NEVER answered. What level of plastic or artificial is allowed by you? Artificial sounds are ok but automated anything is not?

Where do you draw your line Chas?

Tom

Tom, seems to me you're trying your best to make this a personal thing. I basically said two things, one a personal opinion and the other a personal preference. I believe I'm allowed to have both. So that there is no further misunderstanding on your part, I'll say it again.

1. Personal opinion - watching a guy making very complex CD-like music which could not possibly be played by one individual, by triggering phrases and pushing buttons seems very "fake, plastic, and artificial" to me, especially when presented to the public as a musical performance. Others differ, but that's MY OPINION. You have yours and believe in it strongly, yet you jump all over me for having one.

2. Personal preference - I choose to use a non-automated keyboard when playing in public because I believe (rightly or wrongly) that the public is paying to hear me play and play at a higher level than an amateur at a house party on an auto-accompaniment organ. The people I play for are used to hearing 'live' musicians and would not accept anything else, especially poorly disguised 'canned music' packaged as a traditional live jazz group. There are obviously MANY other audiences in many other genre's that find this perfectly acceptable, BUT NOT JAZZ AUDIENCES IN JAZZ CLUBS. AND THAT IS WHERE I PLAY, UNDERSTAND?

Tom, I think you're being very predictably defensive (along with several others) and see this as a 'put down' of arranger keyboards in general. That only tells me that you're reading what you want to into what I actually said. Ian, who also disagrees with me, at least acknowledges my point of view (and my right to express them) and seems to understand what I'm trying to say. Spalding also disagrees, and like you, through a misinterpretation of something I said. Let me state clearly, that when I refer to using an arranger keyboard on a gig, I'm referring to USING IT AS AN ARRANGER, IN STYLE MODE (OR MP3 PLAYER OR ANY OTHER FORM OF AUTO-ACCOMPANIMENT). Obviously, just using it as a synth or ws strips it of it's 'arranger' status and changes the game (we are no longer talking about playing 'arranger keyboard' on a gig).

Hope this clears it up for you. One other thing (unrelated to your post but related to some earlier post), I WOULD NEVER switch my child from piano lessons to an arranger keyboard just to keep him interested. I say, take the money you were going to spend on an (probably entry-level) arranger keyboard and continue the piano lessons by (if necessary) bribing him/her with a brand new laptop loaded with games. That way he can learn both technology and how to legitimately play an instrument at the same time. JMO.

chas

Where do you draw your line Chas?
i guess they draw the line at ARRANGERS

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Sorry.

chas

I really don't understand what's the fuss all about. In fact, Chas made some very valid statements.

I can't think of even ONE arranger keyboard player that fills stadiums, arenas, concert halls or jazz clubs. What would be the reason?

Wouldn't it be better if we tried to understand what Chas is saying? Or let's take a different approach. How would the typical arranger player fare if, due to some mishap, he had to play WITHOUT the accompaniment features. Would the show go on or be cancelled? See, that's at least ONE thing Chas doesn't have to worry about. Then, also keep in mind that Chas is a jazz player so his approach to music and understanding of music differs from yours. His audience is far more demanding then yours. That's a fact that can't be denied. Certain instruments just don't belong in a jazz club. Heck, you won't find even one no matter where or how hard you look.

Yet, that doesn't mean that he thinks he's above the rest. He wouldn't be here if he thought so.

Let's all just take a deep breath and relax.

Regards

Taike



------------------
Bo pen nyang.

I refuse to play at Carnegie Hall, and stadiums, because I believe I would lose the intimacy established when playing for a smaller audience.

I have no plans this winter, of doing any concerts at venues where the audience numbers more than 10,000.


Seriously, I have had my arranger screw up (brought wrong adaptor) and had to do the evening playing on my P-85 which I retrieved from my car...no problems whatsoever, other than a slight change in repertoire. It was actully a fun experience, and a good workout.

I think Chas has every right to feel the way he does, just as I have the right to remain steadfastly in support of using an arranger at my gigs.

Watching an arranger player is surely not going to be every one's cuppa tea, but neither is watching someone play jazz organ/piano. I have several friends, including my girlfriend(who, by the way, is an accomplished piano player) who find jazz boring.

Why do some people hate Country music, why do some dislike Celtic, or Classical?

I don't know...I like them all, but I guess it's just personal preference, a right we all have and one we can freely exercise and need not defend.

I don't listen to many arranger players...actually only one, who I referred to in a previous post. He keeps my interest, not just because he's a great player (he was Glen Campbell's piano player in Nashville for some time) but I enjoy his imaginative arrangements, and his interpretations of tunes...he uses no SMF, and like me, assembles his own styles.

We have something in common, so I suppose that helps too.

Chas has something in common with jazz organists, because he plays the same style, and likes the arrangements.

At that point, he and I do not differ, for we both appreciate a good job done.

We do differ however, in that I can enjoy both types of players.

But for me, and again like Chas, the players have to be reasonably at the top of their game.

Great topic Chas.

I'm secure enough in my environment, and with my skills, not to be offended if someone does not appreciate my level of skill on an arranger...sometimes it's because they do not understand the time and patience and years of working with these instruments that it takes to pull off a good performance that looks easy.

Everyone who plays has a message, some are simple, and some are complex, some are even in a foreign language, but the bottom line is still the fact that we can choose to listen and appreciate and maybe learn something, or simply ignore and enjoy what we always chose.


One of the easiest ways to to being unsuccessful, and a big source of frustration, is trying to please everybody.

I just do my own thing, and it works for me, and above all...I love doing it.

That's success in my books.

Sorry for the rambling...just got up at the crack of noon, and I'm still half awake.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-06-2009).]

Chas,

I have a 16 piece big band, I have a 7 piece big band, I have a 5 piece band and I also do trio stuff using the arranger and a couple of other musicians and I do solo arranger stuff. I prefer live musicians hands down.

How I play really doesn't differ much in any of the situations. When I'm playing with the 16 piece band I play my keyboard part. When I'm playing at my mom's nursing home as a solo I play my keyboard part. Regardless of who or what I'm playing with, my playing really doesn't change much.

I'm no less of a musician playing with 15 other guys than I am playing as a solo with an arranger.

I heard one of the greatest guitarists in the world (Phil Keggey) use a loop machine in his performance. It did not make him any less of a musician and if fact enhanced the performance.

Of course in a high priced jazz club nobody would expect to hear an arranger. It seems in your view these are the only places where real "Professionals" play. I guess if we play at the Elks or the Moose or a local resturaunt we can't be "Professional".

Why won't you answer where your line is? As a solo performer would you ever use a drum machine to enhance your performance?

Chas, I do agree with you that playing an arranger using a style is instant coffee, but it's better than no coffee, and I have to work harder and be better because I can't lean on the other band members.

I disagree on where "professionals" play and who they are and what they play.

Again I saw a guy playing a Korg I30 in a lounge in Las Vegas but in your opinion he wasn't a professional. I disagree.

Tom

I saw Elton John do a one-man show, with backing tracks generated by Yamaha Diskclavier (I think). Could have been an out-of-site sequencer. Makes him not a pro.
LOTS of headliners regularly do their hits with backing tracks. First one I saw in person was Bobby Goldsboro during a taping of the Johnny Cash tv show in Nashville many ears ago. He strummed the guitar and the "band" played. But there was no band.
I do get to see lots of pros though. They are usually in the audience wanting my job.
If the electricity went out, I'd have to get out an acoustic guitar. Never was a piano player, I'm an ARRANGER Player. I could fake it on an organ with no acc, but not for long on a piano.
Interesting topic though, Chas. The old purist theme.
I think the reception has been better than if I went to a jazz organist forum and started an arranger discussion.
DonM

C'mon Don. You know I respect you as much as anyone on SZ, but how does anything in my posts translate into an assertion that "Elton John is not a Pro"? First, I don't equate the use of backing tracks (as used by 'Superstars' in smaller venue productions) the same as an arranger performace. I'm guessing he was probably playing acoustic piano at that show. BTW, did you read about the really nasty reception Britney Spears got in Australia or UK, can't remember which, for lip-syncing her so-called performance. As a general rule, I'd say that most audiences want to hear the real thing.

As far as your imagined reception of an arranger player on a jazz organ forum (if one existed), wouldn't that just reinforce my reasons for not wishing to use an arranger in a jazz venue? It's starting to seem like an opinion has to pass muster with certain people less the poster risks getting trashed.

Seems like a good time to vacate this thread since it seems that everything I say is going to be translated into something I didn't say or assingned meanings that everyone knows are bogus. Since I have three arrangers, I would think that under normal circumstances, that would qualify me to have an opinion on an arranger forum. Apparently others don't see it that way. Oh well, what's new.

chas

What!!? Isn't it essentially the same thing?

If you advocate it's okay to use backing tracks, well then, aren't arranger tracks exactly the same?? pre-arranged and recorded backing tracks?

There are an awful lot of arranger players who also play a FULL keyboard along with whatever they have set as the backing. Even if only bass and drums.

Seems to me you may be contradicting yourself here.

Dennis

Dennis, you know, I really don't give a damn. Reading Don's post about HankB's plight (which is hopefully, temporary) made me realize how trivial and insignificant this little ideological argument is. Let's all just hope for the greater good, which is that Hank survives this latest ordeal and goes on to a positive prognosis.

Peace.

chas

Yeah well, whatever...What a way to NOT take ownership of a bullshit argument...use someone else's misfortune as an excuse.

Smooth!!

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 12-06-2009).]

[This message has been edited by Tom Cavanaugh (edited 12-06-2009).]

Whoa there, lads.



The key phrase being "this thread". It doesn't read like a total farewell to me.

Marvellous. I post my last comment and Tom has pulled his. Makes mine redundant, I guess.

You own a MONO cd-player? I will never understand why any company bothers to post a MONO video on Youtube when it comes to promoting a musical instrument.

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- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

Agreed! I use my E-80 as an arranger(!) at home. For fun. Or to get ideas, or to have a quick, rough, first "sketch" of a song I want to play. Some people might think it's nuts to use Roland's current TOTL as a sketchbook, but hey, that's how I use it. Besides, I have kids too and I notice how they get more enthusiastic to learn to play music if it's accompanied(!) by an arranger.

Other than you, I don't think bribing my kids with a laptop (yeah, they wish LOL) to get them to learn how to play the piano is the right way to go. They don't WANT to learn how to play the piano.
But if my arranger keyboard can at least trigger some interest in how music is made, what chords are, why a chord is named "7th", and even learning to recognize the difference between a clarinet and a hobo, then that's fine with me.

On stage however (yes I use the beast on stage) I use the great sounds in the E-80 combined with its extensive capabilities where it comes to layering, adding effects, using User Programs, thus enabling me to switch "lightning fast" between setups for each song my band plays. In that "role", my arranger is no longer an arranger. I would never want to "gig" using it as an arranger. The only times I use the arranger "in public", is when I demo the instrument for someone who wants to know what this thing is all about


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- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

I rather play a clarinet than a hobo.

Wouldn't mind being able to play the oboe, though.

Regards

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

Whatever. You knew what I meant :-))))

(Not my fault we do call that thing a hobo, and sometimes my automated translation fails. Especially on Mondays. :-) )

miden ... that was low ... I KNOW chas didn't mean it in that way ... he was just trying to put things in proper perspective ...

t.

Just couldn't resist, Bart.

Taike

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Bo pen nyang.

That was exactly my point Burkels. The arranger keyboard is so flexible you can use it for whatever musical need you have without ever switcing on the 'stop start button' which is why i s suggested that musicians get blinkered simply by the word arranger. It works just as well as any other keyboard on stage in a live setting for 90% of any users needs

I'm closer to the Chas way of thinking when it comes to jazz performance.

But, as a result of injuries this year to my left arm, I wouldn't be working if it weren't for an arranger.

My long-time partner and mentor, Tom Johnston always told me: work as often as you can. I never wanted to be a "week-end warrier". Instead, I don't watch sports, drink, chase woment (anymore, at least), do home repair, etc. What I do is use the time I would devote to those activities to play. And to do that, I have to make some concessions. There isn't enough work to just play 50's, 60's B-3. But, there is enough to stay active in that art form, which is what I prefer.

I have become a generalist. While there are tunes, styles and venues I simply won't play,
I happily play at restaurants, taking a back seat to a ham sandwich.

Since my injury, my arranger has kept me working. It's now a tool I need. That being said, I'm working to get better and not need to rely on arrangers as much. If my left hand improves to the extent that I can play instrumental guitar, I'll split my jobs between the two. I have played a few of my B-3 jobs (on a C-1, actually), with a bass player (my oldest son) and drummer (grandson), relying on block chords on my left hand and conventional right hand techniques.

Play what works for you. But PLAY! I'm in my 53rd year of being a 4 night a week plus player.

And, everyday, I'm eternally grateful to be able to do that.


Russ



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 12-10-2009).]