It’s seems to me (maybe I’m wrong) that arranger keyboards are much more popular overseas than in the USA. For example, the Tyros 3 has been out for over a year I haven’t any in the stores here in Texas- and I’ve gone to just about every Guitar Center from Laredo to Dallas. I’ve never seen any Korg or Roland arrangers around here either. Ketrons- no where…. I go down to Mexico City a few times a year where I’ve have spotted Rolands and Korgs arrangers in stores. I have heard that in the UK they have all sorts of arranger keyboard clubs, clinics, courses, contests… So why does the arranger keyboard have a very limited appeal in the USA?

it has little appeal in USA, because they are nowhere to be seen here,

out of sight, out of mind ...

I'm not saying this to start an argument or stir up any ill feelings, but only because I really believe it. I think it's because very few serious musicians are interested in them. Why this is so, I can only speculate......but I won't.

chas

PS: Please note that I said VERY FEW. Obviously there are some very fine musicians here on SZ but I think that within the community of musicians, they are a small minority. JMO.

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 01-26-2010).]

It does well here in Atlantic Canada (and apparently, Quebec too...I have a buddy who works there) but we do a lot of information clinics, as well as demos, and follow-up clinics for clients....that may be in our favor.

Most people are unaware of how sophisticated the arranger has become.

Ian

Because of our wealth,mobility, gas , used car prices - the best income/instrument price ratio compared to the rest of the world.(don't quote me on this by comparing north west euro countries with 5- 10 mil people for the whole country, they don't count).Compare US to UK, Ger, Mxco, China, India,Japan, France,Russia and all the countries with more than say 25 mil).

(US) promotes real band music ( because we can still afford it) than OMB music.
(not talikg about button pressing Rap).


Arranger - $ appeal for the player

Guitar/Drums (and to a lesser extent a nord like synth KB without speakers) - Sex appleal for the playa

and you kwow what a college kid would prefer.

21 yr old kid in US can get a 1500$ M3/ Motif Xs, load it in to his $2500 used Civic, drive 10 miles, play with his 4 piece band, record , do the gig in a local club.He tries to make it , if he can't he quits, nothing lost.


Do that in other parts of the world.

2000$ keyboard, 7000$ for a working used so so car,pay $ 9 for a gallon of gas, load your gear to your apartment where you live with your parents, find a club that accepts 4 or 5 piece live band music....,


But not all 21 yr old in other countries may not be able to spend, even if they can mobilty/transportation is not as easy as in US to promote Band music.Other parts ot the world( with some exception of UK and Germany).

This is a typical local musician example -
25 yr old musician with his singer GF buys PA2x pro/T3 goes to the local club to play live.

The best used (2nd hand pro gear ) market in the world is again , the US.

Try Craiglist even London (or local sites), search a pro instrument , do the same thing for NY, LA . You'll see the dif.

Here in US, mostly seniors (who used to be 21 yr olds in the bands) gig with MOTL and TOTL arrangers.


Young musicians in US are not into arrangers because they can still spend time, money and energy for band music.When they get older they'll play in a jazz trio or by a T3 and start OMBing.

1500 Les Paul or 1000$ US strat is no big deal here(a college will buy it if he wants) but outside the US,it is a big deal and they have to do with epiphone or a squier.


Once the economy goes down, there will be less bands and the young in the US will be into arrangers.



[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 01-26-2010).]

We've had this discussion many times over the years. As a 59 year old store owner I have a different opinion then I'm reading here today.
So many of the stores in the USA are Guitar Center and Sam Ash locations and they are staffed with mostly young musicians who have very weak selling capabililties and don't know how to demonstrate well. They tend to just push a demo button and that's it. At least this is what I see when I go into those type of stores throughout the Los Angeles area. I think that most music stores in other countries probably have better sales people who can properly show the strengths of arrangers.
I also think that there are more former accordian players outside the USA then we have here and the natural transition is to an arranger with chords and bass on the left hand and melody on the right.


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

I can tell you about the arranger popularity in Mexico, in my hometown Queretaro, there are many street cafes like in Spain, France, Italy, etc...and I can say that the live entertainment is 55% arrangers/singers and the other 45% guitarist/singers.

When you go to some resorts like Cancun, Acapulco, Ixtapa, La Paz, etc... You will find in larger hotels bands that play all kinds of music, catering to the younger crowd, 20s to 40ish...in other smaller hotels may be some trios, Piano, Bass & Drums or sax/singer.
In the local restaurants is most likely you will find an arranger keyboardist performing there.

I live in Phoenix AZ, and I go every 2-3 months to Los Algodones B.C. Mexico for my prescriptions like many thousands of americans do, and in the main Restaurant "La casa Vieja", you have a young man playing his Korg PA50 and singing. I remind you that the town is tiny, only a few streets, most with Drug stores, Optical, hearing aids, dentist and some art craft stores.

I have many of my friends, Alejandro Vazquez, Rafael Garcia, Jorge Alarcon, Prudencio & Jesusa, Juanito Silva, Mtro. Benitez, etc play keyboard arrangers in my hometown, performing in different places, from Restaurants, Lounges, Hotels besides the wedding, convention events.
The predominant brand arrangers in Mexico, are Yamaha and Korg, strangely, Roland has a small presence in Mexico, I repeat, in the ARRANGER area, I can even say, that Ketron has a stronger third place, Ketron has been only a short time in Mexico(about 8 years), I was the first performer in 1998 to use it when I got my X1 HD, and later the SD1, when I moved back to USA, I sold my 2 Ketrons there, and some other 3 SD1s, and couple X1s where there playing.

The popularity of Ketron in Mexico is due to it's superior real "Latin" styles, the second place is for Korg, then Yamaha in last, I think Roland now has a posible 3th place, most still some errors in orchestration and some musical phrasing.

Some of my friends make their styles with what the Yamaha keyboard tools provide, very LIMITED, NONE of the style designers use the keyboard itself to make the styles.
SO, there you have a picture of the arrangers in Mexico, the Worksations like Motifs, Fantoms, M/Triton, are use mostly in larger bands and studios, and some, popular bands use an arranger and a worksation too.

------------------
mdorantes

Here is what I think happened in the UK. Its probably incorrect and full of erros but here goes....

The strongest market was always the home organist. After import restrictions were lifted Hammond aggressively established a network of social groups called Hammond Organ Societies supported by local tuition schools where people learned to play together. This became the foundation for today's organ clubs. I think the UK was unique in that so many home organs were sold. There were shops on every high street and just about every family had a relative with an organ.

As cheaper and more attractive alternatives became available more organs sold as customers were drawn to the pretty lights, rows of tabs and low price tags; Welson, Howard, Kentucky, Viscount, Gem, Bentley, Gulbranson, Cavendish, Siel, Godwin, Panasonic, Yamaha, Kawai, Farfisa, Elka - Orla, Belton, Lowrey, Bontempi. (I could go on all night). But that was fine, because people would start of on a little organ, maybe a Welson and then after 6 months or a year would part exchange it in for a better model. The same customer would keep changing their instruments whilst they learned, getting the newest model or one with more features.

The 70s were incredible and Organ sales boomed. Then one Christmas in the early 80s, and I remember it very well as my Father managed Fox's Music Shop in Leicester, Yamaha delivered the PSR 1, 2 and 3.

That christmas, instead of people buying the little organs for £399 - £699 and then returning in January to book lessons they were buying little Yamaha keyboards for £149 or less. that in itself wasn't so bad - maybe they would part exchange it for an organ later??

It didn't happen. When people brought an organ, it was a commitment to something; a large piece of furniture that demanded attention. I reckon 90% of Yamaha PSR 1, 2 and 3 models ended up under peoples beds and in the lofts...and they are probably still there or in a landfill.

Yamaha had success afterward and established a series of music schools across the country with their own method, and for a few years the industry carried on like a fat oil tanker with no engines (through sheer momentum) due to the amount of people that were already hooked on the organ. What the industry failed to do was to keep attracting new customers for organs. Panasonic (Technics) and Yamaha became the dominant players Hammond hanging on in their but struggling to keep up with technology due to their commitment to a pure tone. Kawai for a while became very popular and Elka (then later Orla) always managed to keep head above water.

As many of the organ manufacturers disappeared, the bigger companies diversified with Digital Ensemble Pianos which dominated the market in the 90s and in to the 00s, trying to convince the same organ customers that this was they way to go, many customers became frustrated and this is where arranger keyboards came in.

There are still a reasonable number of that generation left...(these are the Tyros customers in the UK). People that are not so much players- and need their registicks and presets labeled by song name, they love to push a style maked 'miller' and instantly play a five part ensemble of Moonlight Serenade with only three fingers on the left and one on the right. They keep them for 12 months until bored of the styles and part exchange them in for the next model. They might buy a Korg or a Ketron and push the buttons for a bit, but inevitably as non players they will end up going back to their safety zone. Roland and Orla still battle on and have their own loyal customers. Hammond went back to their roots and have a nice little corner of the market shared by one or two others (KeyB for instance)
Sadly not many arranger keyboards fall into the hands of performing musicians. Its unlike the European continent where many little bars and restaurants will have a guy in the corner playing his Ketron and singing to a merry audience until the early hours of the morning. In the UK, once people have eaten their meal to the sounds of recorded Piano music they go home and are in bed by 11pm. Whilst the younger ones dance to the pre-recorded music played by a guy with a PA and mp3 player.
But...there is a smaller group of people that still go out at night and entertain - people like you guys on synthzone who put on their 'performance face' with carefully prepared playlists, on screen lyrics and vocal harmonizers. People who take a PA2x or an Audya and really appreciate it as a performance instrument. Some play with arranger modules and accordions, one or two with midi guitars and Midjays. I wish there were more of you!

Most of this is probably rubbish and I have missed huge chunks out (sincer apologies for that), but its just my take and I am going to post it before I think too much about it and start editing! in fact I am going to resist hitting the edit button!

TWD

Personally, I think the arranger slump in the US is mostly due to how bad they do contemporary styles. While in Europe and Latin America, more traditional forms are still very popular, in the States the clubs are dominated by bands that play rock, alternative, and rap/hiphop/R&B. None of which are the traditional arranger's forte.

Few parents would buy a PSR for their kids today and expect them to LIKE it. They want something that can do some Beyoncé, DMX or T-Pain. And that AIN'T the arranger. It's the WS/Groovebox. Europe and Latin America, singalongs are still popular, people like the familiar songs they can sing along with, but ask any kids the words to a traditional song, you get a blank stare. But they know ALL the words to some rap song, or an emo/angst rock tune...

Just look at the Billboard Top 30. I can't think of hardly ONE song that an arranger could do. Now compare that to the Top 30 in say Germany, or Mexico. I guarantee there's a LOT of songs performable on an arranger.

Until arranger manufacturers incorporate some of the features and sounds that make making hiphop and techno as easy as a WS or computer rig, don't expect to see arrangers regain any ground over here...

JMO...

I personally still havent found a Salesperson in any store or a TechSupport from ANY Company that makes Keyboards to outbeat me in knowledge on ANY machine laying on the floor in the store...especially here in SAM ASH where a lot of them are my friends now i usually end up helping customers and the Salepersons listening to me and learning from it...that said...tell me how in the hell a person like that would sell an arranger or any keyboard at all...especially when it comes to arrangers NONE of them has a CLUE even what the machine can do...they are just simply mute.

I've bought a ton of arrangers over the years--mainly for the traditional styles. I'd pay them extra to leave all that contemporary junk off my keyboard. I'd like to be able to buy a "blank" arranger and specify which styles I'd prefer. I've got the S910, but hardly touch it--because of Band In A box 2010 and all its Real Tracks, which meets my needs much better.

If I could only afford to hire Nedim...

------------------
www.AudioworksCT.com

I went to a jazz jam over at Twains in Decatur the other night. Loads of musicians. Lot of Berkelee grads. Lots of young players. Most of these guys were 'killer' musicians who could play incredibly beautiful and complex solos over incredibly complex changes to painfully slow or blazingly fast rhythms, without breaking a sweat.....all without benefit of digitized sheet music in front of them, transpose buttons, automatic chord generation, sequencers, mp3 players, etc., etc. They could also accompany the other soloist with equal ease. In other words, they were REAL musicians......in a way that most arranger players aren't. Given the amount of blood, sweat, and tears that they have devoted to their craft, should they look down on arranger keyboards/players? Dunno, but I can understand it if they do.

We get angry when/if someone suggests that arranger keyboards are mostly of interest to 'ol folks' and poor to mediocre players who use them as crutches to present themselves in a better light, musically. If we're honest, we know that this is generally true. Although there are some 'good' players (I haven't heard any 'great' players) here (unlike say on some of the recording boards), I've only heard a couple that could have set in on that jam the other night; not because of genre', but because of the level of musicianship and training. I think serious musicians want to play what's in their heads, not a sequence (played/programmed by someone else) triggered by a 2 or 3 fingered chord (with very sophisticated software to minimize the effects of poor timing, etc.). These are machines designed for and used by hobbyists that are sometimes, but rarely, used by 'entertainers' to give themselves (hopefully) more performance flexibility than the old 'tape' backing tracks of yesteryear (but just in case, don't forget to bring your compliment of SMF's and MP3's).

For the record, I feel the same way about the loopers and slicers and remixers in the world of HipHop. But at least they do it mostly in the studio, not in the middle of a pretend performance.....plus, they don't even pretend to be 'musicians'...they CALL themselves HipHop artists and treat it as a seperate and unique artform (whether we like it or not, it probably is, and as such, requires a certain skill set, talent, and understanding of the genre'). If it were easy, given the amount of money generated, everyone would do it.

Personally, I don't think the development of more contemporary styles or more modern or authentic sounds matter one little bit in terms of attracting a broader market. It's the VERY CONCEPT of an arranger that makes it attractive to some and a turn-off to others. The old auto-accomp home organ mentality is still alive and well; it has just been re-packaged into a more affordable, more portable, form that allows practically anyone with reasonable singing ability to go out and make a few bucks.

Some people can make music with spoons or partly filled water glasses. Some talented folks will always find ways to use arrangers in sophisticated and artful ways. My dog has a VERY soulful howl; I'm still not taking him to the gig.

chas

I don't think "killer musicians" should "look down" on anyone else for what instrument they use and/or how they play, but I suppose if they are narrow-minded enough, it can happen.

Conversely, arranger players should not look down on those incapable of gigging with an arranger just because they can't play one as well they'd like, or it doesn't seem to fit their personal idea of what makes a legitimate instrument.

Generally, critics of either method of gigging (with or without an arranger) are like eunuchs...they know how it's done, they see how it's done, but they can't do it themselves.

Ian

Ian, my friend. It's wonderful to see that you are bright enough and linguistically skillful enough to solicit the empathy and backing of a partisan crowd without ever actually addressing the point I was trying to make; that is, that the very CONCEPT of an arranger could be a turnoff to some musicians and therefore an impediment to it's growth as a popular instrument. Are you saying that that argument has no merit? Also, I liked the way you were able to get in the implication that because someone chooses not to use an arranger on a gig (for whatever reason, legitimate or not), it automatically means that can't play one very well. Could be, I guess, but sounds a little defensive to me. But what the hey, it all just opinion, right?

chas

i hear you chas and i had to read what you wrote a couple of times before the penny dropped and i think i know what you are getting at. It is just the concept of an arranger that stops some muscians from using one. That same concept encourages others musicians to do the opposite. And it is true that some muscians with perhaps more basic skills are drawn to arrangers.

but for those musicians that dont like the idea of an arranger , (in my view) its simply prejudice born from ignorance. Those same musicians will take the XS or Fantome G with them on a gig and play piano, or organ or synth lead just jamming as you have described. Then take the same instrument home and struggle to reproduce anywhere near the sound of the band they jammed with a few hours earlier.

What makes them think they can do exactly what they did at he club on any other keyboard except an arranger ?

i Jam pretty much every week at church and when friends come and play my instrument (when i need a break) they just see that i am playing a Korg model keyboard with great sounding speakers that they have never seen before . They dont even know its an arranger ...Until i switch on a drum track and a bass track and then they realise its an arranger. But by then the prejudice is over come.

I have made this point numerous times, an arranger is a keyboard just like any other and it will do only what you want it to do. Thats the message that needs to get out there. Noone would be put off the fantom G just because a novice player was playing it so why an arranger ?

If you dont want accompaniment, dont use it at that point. But when i am jamming with my friends and we have no drummer, voila, i provide the drummer. When we dont have a bass player , voila i play bass in the left hand or use a pre programmed style, no guitarist,voila, no latin styled horns , voila (yes i have learned a new french word !! )

I can change split point on my keys in a flash, have dozens of set up instantly at hand without the need for any auto accompaniment .

If any musician demomnstrated an arranger just as a keyboard with great sounding EP, or pianos or guitars like the T3 , or changing sounds and splits on the fly , do you think any sensible musician would not play it just because it also just happened to have the ability should i choose to play auto sounds and accompaniments ?

Put an arranger in the hands of someone like Peter Baartman from yamaha or Ralph Schink from roland or Andreas Gunlach from Korg (all accomplished professionally trained musicians in their own right )and they could make it sound great in arranger mode or straight keyboard mode using all their formal music training and their knowledge of the strenghths of the instrument.


[This message has been edited by Spalding 4 (edited 01-27-2010).]

So that's the point you were trying to make?

Your words "look down on" were the one that piqued my reply...believe it or not, there are people who look down on jazz musicians and do not appreciate them in the slightest...in fact, they are disappointed the poor players are unable to play the melody correctly through the whole tune.

I'm sure people can look down at arranger players in kind of the same way...they think they can't really play a legitimate instrument like a piano/organ, so they have to use an arranger.

Is either group wrong? Maybe, maybe not.

Now, I'll swing in a little closer to your point again.

Both situations respond well to educating people on how to enjoy them...doesn't always work, but I'm sure it helps....I've pointed out things that are interesting in jazz to people that never would listen at all, and many of them stayed with it.

The arranger is similar...I've brought many a piano/organ player (some extremely competent) into the arranger fold, by educating them on how powerful this instrument has become, and the benefits of using one in their performance.

I'm sure George and Frankie can say the same thing about the benefits of educating people about arrangers.

I believe jazz players, by their very nature, may not be interested in using auto-accompaniment or SMF; too restricting, but there are a few converts, one being Oscar Peterson and his PSR-9000 Pro and CVP-109.

So, bottom line for me, and strictly my own opinion, is that educating people is the key to successful arranger sales, and how the are used and enjoyed.

I can only speak for my region, but we did a real successful tour before Christmas...I'm not at liberty to release any sales numbers, but suffice to say, they were very high.

I'll do a followup in February, or March.

It's working.

Ian

Great, Ian. Glad it's working....I think. Actually, if I ruled the world, young musicians would not be allowed to even know of the existence of an arranger until they were at least 30 yrs. old, at which time, they would first have to spend at least two years programming styles.

I have to discount Spalding's point because his main premise depends on using it NOT as an arranger, but as a synth. When I use the term arranger, I'm referring to using it as an ARRANGER. I'm talking about AUTO-ACCOMPANIMENT. Obviously, when you turn off the arranger function you have reduced it to a regular synth and it will stand or fall on the strength of it's synth-only qualities. However, used this way, one could probably get way more bang for the buck by just buying a synth in the first place.

Look, however much you want to argue the point, you won't find many arranger keyboards being used by professionals in professional venues. There is a reason for that, however legitimate or illegitimate. I think the reasons, in some part, are what I described in my original post. Because it makes some members defensive doesn't mean it's not true. Enjoy your keyboards, use them however you like. The facts are the facts no matter how it makes us feel. Generally speaking, arranger keyboards are considered (in the music community) as a hobbyist's instrument. However, take solace in the fact that "Every general truth is a specific lie".



chas

Chas, most, if not all, of my clients are over thirty and a great many of them already play.

Yes, I've stated all along that arrangers are hobbyist instruments..."home keyboards", no matter what the manufacturer's write on the panel, or put in their ads.

But they are legitimate instruments...why wouldn't they be....they make music?

I've used an arranger in "professional" venues...what is a professional venue, but a place where the musician gets paid, is it not?

Some of us are resourceful/ inventive enough to use these "home keyboards" as gigging instruments, and we can make a good living at it...some pros use them for songwriting, like they do on Nashville Row.

Yes, I feel it is a legitimate musical instrument, but I feel you do not.

Is a singer any less of a singer if they sing over a prerecorded backing track, instead of a live orchestra?

I don't think so.

Am I any less of a keyboardist because I play over an accompaniment section that is controlled by my choice of chords, style and instruments.

I don't think so.

If I play piano over a SMF?

I don't think so.

The "facts" are only dependant on point of view, prejudices, and history for a starter, so they'll be different facts for different folk.

I sure don't have a problem with people who don't agree with my use of an arranger or don't think it's legit...I'm not that insecure, and I'm sure a jazz musician doesn't give a hoot who digs his playing either.

Can't please everybody.

Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-27-2010).]

What people also have to keep in mind is that it's not just the consumer that refuses to allow that definitive line between arrangers and workstations to fade. The keyboard makers themselves play a huge role in keeping the two divisions separate.

The ONLY keyboard company of the top three that has (and continues) at least to some degree..., "blur the line" is Korg. The Korg PA series is without a doubt a Hybrid Arranger. While it may not pack the punch in what we consider "modern styles" (and honestly what arranger really does).., the PA series is however a true synth arranger.

Upon release the PA series had Triton based sound engines. Not only that, look how detailed the patch editing is on them.., and as you go up the PA line you even get that killer Korg Combi mode ON AN ARRANGER! Korg continues to allow features to "trickle down" into their arranger line. If memory serves me correctly.., couldn't the original PA-80 load Triton programs (with some limitations)?

Companies like Yamaha for example do more "trickle up" features. Many good sounds from the arranger line have "trickled up" to their pro synth line. However.., they cheeseball the arranger community by "re-naming" these signature arranger voices. They then redesign the arps on the Motif XS with a more sophisticated chord recognition system than used on previous models..., yet go out of their way to make sure to note (to their workstation community) that although it's using chord recognition "It's NOT" auto accomp. It's of course not auto accomp.., but Yamaha wants to make sure their workstation crowd doesn't run the other way when they see the term "chord recognition".

Yamaha released the MM6 (which is without a doubt the rebirth of the ORIGINAL Yamaha DJX -AKA- the PSR-D1). The MM6 is an arranger keyboard produced in the arranger keyboard factory.., yet Yamaha does everything they can to disassociate the MM6 from the arranger line of keyboards. They play the "name game" by calling the styles on the MM6 PATTERNS.., again to disassociate the MM6 as an arranger keyboard because on the workstation it's a pattern and on the arranger it's a style. However.., the patterns on the MM6 use (auto accomp). The MM's styles aren't as full featured as a traditional arrangers.., but that's exactly how the DJX was (but the DJX had more style sections). Yamaha marketed the MM-6 as a "synth" and really upset A LOT of buyers who later found out they bought an arranger keyboard. The MM6 really should be called the PSR-M6.

The MM6 is the "love child" of what happens when a Motif ROM chip sneaks out when the lights go out.., and runs across the street to the PSR factory for a quick piece of feel good. Nine months later.., a quick smack on the ass (waaaa waaaa) you got the MM-6. I wonder how much longer the it'll be before we see the MM-6 on the Maury Povich show saying "It's yo baby!" while the XS is sweating bullets in denial".

Roland already has an arranger keyboard on the market that they could use to literally run the show to draw in the younger crowd. The GW-8 is already set up for this. There are several different versions of the GW-8. Each of these versions all have the same (base traditional styles).., but what makes each one different is a "special style section" specific to a region. All Roland has to do is use what they already have.., and replace that "special style section" with a bunch of modern sounding styles.

Look..., the younger crowd today doesn't want to just "sound like" what they hear on the radio. They also want the ability to make their own songs to "sound like" what they hear on the radio. The younger crowd WILL buy an arranger IF there are styles that appeal to them. The Success of the DJX is proof of that.

Plus an arranger like the GW-8 with both a traditional style section and modern style section becomes a VERY benefical and USEFUL performance tool. Along with its control knobs it just sweetens the package even more.

We (the consumers) aren't the group that can change this age old stereotype by ourselves. The keyboard makers have to get their heads out of their backsides and "get a clue". Look.., software is really taking off BIG TIME. There's going to come a time when the makers will realize that combining these two models IS a good move.

Arranger keyboards and the sales numbers CAN go up majory in the USA. What has to change is the Companies that make them. Roland's an excellent example. Call the RolandUS support staff and ask a question about a Fantom, SH-201, Juno-G, Juno-Stage, Juno-Di, V synth, and they'll be all over your question. Ask them about the arranger line.., and really dig in with some good questions and watch how fast the tone of the conversation changes.

Last time I checked.., rock, alternative, blues, and jazz, are still quite popular here. Isn't that what an arranger is primarily designed for..??? You throw in a special "modern style" section and you draw in the younger crowd (which most by the way DO listen to other styles of music). You'd be surprised how many Hip Hoppers are also into blues, jazz, and rock.

Sqk

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-27-2010).]

Bingo, I totally agree with this. Except that plan B is that... rather than the arranger changing to accommodate contemporary "music," the "music" could change. I can only hope. And I sometimes think that it could, if only, they would. Because many young people gravitate (in the USA) to music us old farts know. From Sinatra songs to 60s / 70s music.

EDIT: And I reiterate -- I agree with Diki's (and others') comments about the problem lying in not enough modern styles. In fact, I have always thought that PERCEPTION is key to young people. They think it's uncool if it has Lawrence Welk type styles on it. I think that if the buyer were allowed to choose the type of styles for his machine, it would be better. Or just remove "old sounding" styles.

I also have stated before... I found some Korg PA styles a few years ago and was amazed at how modern the styles sounded. In fact, I used several of them in my own original compositions. They rocked.

[This message has been edited by SemiLiveMusic (edited 01-27-2010).]

If you are a jazz musician and live for that "interplay"...that unspoken communication...the "give and take"...playing off each other, then you will never be satisfied with ANY arranger, because, in full arranger mode, the arranger is the leader of the group and doesn't "play off" of anyone.

If you are an entertainer and want the most "bang for the buck", you have a whole band available on your left hand.

Two different ways of thinking, and I understand both.

Obviously, I tend to side with Chas, because that's my playing history.

That being said, right now, with pretty serious injury to my left hand, arrangers are the tool(s) that are keeping me working.

A well articulated discussion by all!

I appreciate that!


Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 01-27-2010).]

Also have in mind that in Europe (as well as in the US) there are many ethnic communities, who want to be able to hear songs from their countries, not "generic" rock, pop, ballads etc.

Many musicians here have an arranger, (usually a Korg something, maybe a Yamaha A1000 oriental) and they use it to create a bunch of user styles reflecting ethnic "niche" music. Korg already has lots of Middle Eastern styles (who have ready most of the ingredients you need to build a so called "modern Greek" style), as well as killer synth sounds and they use them to their potential.

I went to a tavern-like place with some friends, and they had a small band: A stack of 2 keybs (a Korg synth and a Yamaha A1000 oriental) a guitar, 2-3 mics for the orchestra, and a bouzouki. Early in the night, while people were still eating, the guitar and the 1st voice were the main entertainment, along with some piano or pads from the synth. The Yamaha was nowhere to be heard. Then about 1-2 hours later, the time came for the hard stuff!. The Yamaha oriental was turned on, the bouzouki player took a seat, full accompaniment along with left hand bass was started and the synth was never heard of again.

My wife comes from a "kind of" minority. Their music is played with traditional instruments, most "modern" bands though have a PA1/X around... for style as well as lead playing. It does the job wonderfully and it doesn't cost as much as 2-3 band players, nor turns up drunk.

As Diki (I think) once pointed out, if the only musicians that will play with you are drunks, that may say something about you as a musician. Just a thought. For the record, I have never in all my years of playing, had a bandmate (not even a drummer ) show up for a gig drunk. Maybe I've just been lucky. Also, I don't see how the fact that someone is playing 'niche' music changes anything. It's not like 'ethnic' music sounds better when done on an arranger. If you want to use one, fine, I just don't see it as a REASON to use one.

chas

Yes, you are lucky, Chas. I've had experience with some fine players who started out okay, and slipped off the wagon...some slowly, some abruptly...I was there myself one time.

Also, where I live, the pool to pick from is very small, as I'm in a very small town...we don't even have a town drunk...they take turns.

I could move to the big city, and perhaps have more band mates to choose from, but I like living in a small town.

I am lucky to have some buds to jam with, but they aren't into gigging.

Ian

I DID say they SHOWED UP sober, I didn't say they ENDED the gig that way .

chas

I played in a band where the drummer used to smoke three doobies before the last set. He always played okay, not a lot of difference.

well, one night, he must have got an especially potent batch, and after the usual three doobies, we got started on the last set.

Several times during the set, in the middle of a tune, he try and catch my eye, and when he did, he'd look at me wide eyed and mouth the words, "What song are we playin?"

Still gives me a chuckle thinking of the look of panic on his face.

Ian

Thank you to all the comments so far. It’s so interesting to hear everyone’s perspective. Here a few comments:

Chas- While I agree with you that serious musicians tend to stay away from arrangers, I don’t see why that would make the arranger keyboard less popular in the USA. Maybe I don’t understand you. I don’t think you mean to say that US musicians are more serious about music than their “overseas’ counterparts, do you? I had the opportunity to play with musicians from Europe, and Latin America and Asia and I think they take music very seriously. Many of my “foreign” counterparts have had very rigorous training starting at an early age. Maybe there are more hobbits outside of the US?

Ian and mdonrantes, I have traveled throughout Mexico and Canada and concur with you. There is much more activity going on with arranger keyboards than in the US (pro performers, hobbits)

Nedim and George Kaye- yes, sell people do a poor job of demonstrated their arrangers, but I think they are equally as bad with the workstations or any other instrument for that matter.

Jammman- your perspective is very interesting and something I had never really considered. Can you imagine trying to rehearse a band a band in those small living quarters in Europe and Asia? Not to mention trying to hall your gear in those tiny cars. And how could you make it at all profitable with those insanely high gas prices?!?

Diki- I’m not that familiar with modern rap, hip hop and other contemporary styles but could those styles be done on arranger keyboard? Aren’t those styles more riff based and each song has a very specific drum beat? Even so, there are lots of people in the US that don’t get into the contemporary styles.

I really wonder if there is just something different in the American psyche that gives us a natural aversion to arranger keyboards. Perhaps Americans are naturally more inclined to create musical styles than play along with canned tracks?


[This message has been edited by montunoman (edited 01-27-2010).]

The arranger keyboards are difficult to find in Sacramento, CA. I went to the largest local MI dealer, and no arrangers were in stock. Went to Guitar Center, and they had one Yamaha PSR700 in the back of a room with dozens of Casio type home keyboards/pianos. If you can't find one to try, you probably won't buy one. If a dealer doesn't have one to sell, he probably won't sell one.

I've been playing keys in bands since 1964, and have used a Korg PA50 arranger for the past year, and really love the orchestral illusion that it provides. In combination with my wife on guitar, it gives a full sound that has helped our duo get gigs. No small feat in a time when DJs spinning mp3s and crooners singing along with laptops are bumping live musicians out of the few gigs available.

I also have no desire to do what my 27 year old son in Los Angeles does, where his bands pay the clubs to let them perform, and charge at the door to recoup their expenses.

Duane O

Arranger Artists.....that could work.

-mike

In my previous post I meant exactly that...

Anyway, the reason to use an arranger is the simplicity of making a niche style(s). Their music has some basic "forms" or "bases" or "paths" and the rest is built ON that. They start with song A rhythm X and maybe 5-7 songs later they change to rhythm Y, depending on what the crowd wants. And so on and so on, until the early morning. They probably wouldn't do that easily in a synth.

It occurs to me - and I might be mistaken, is it possible that arranger keyboards are designed mainly for the European Market and sell in the USA in smaller numbers just because they are available?

The reason I say this is because when I worked for Hammond there seemed to be two very distinctive markets. The XB3, XC3, B3, C3 etc sold far more in the USA than the UK because of the Church and pro market (i mean keyboard players in bands). When we asked for the XE1, the USA were not so interested in it because there is a only a very limited call for that kind of instrument. However in the UK we sold huge ammounts of XE1 that were upgraded to XE2 and even XE200, because it was so succesfull we had a special edition version in burgandy with a full length music rack. I don't believe anything more than an XE1 in a cabinet ever found itself to the USA.

If that is the case, it is very worrying because it means that the larger companies still have the home organist in their sites and rely on those people for sales of arranger keyboards. Every year there are fewer and fewer of those customers. And unless the industry does what Hammond did in the 60s to establish their own market could it be game over?

Whenever a sales department ask the factory for a new product, the question will be asked...How many units will we sell?

Hammond no longer makes ensemble instruments (at least not for Europe), Yamaha no longer openly imports organs into the UK, Panasonic withdrew Technics completely. Roland have not introduced any new TOTL arrangers. That question must have been asked around many tables.

TWD



[This message has been edited by Tonewheeldude (edited 01-27-2010).]

tonewheeldude- I think you have a good point that many of the styles on an arranger seem to be made for the European market. For example, on my Tyors 2 many of the Latin styles sound very European to my ears.

A good Latin arranger is what I really want but I'm still looking... I'm sure there would be a huge market for one.

There would probably be even a bigger demand for an American styles arranger. American music is popular everywhere.

Few comments:

Excellent topic.

1- In the US musician tend to group together in Bands. It can seen all over the place. One of the atraccions of bars and restaurants are "Live Bands". We don't see advertising to "JoeDo playing live".
2- Price. If we look prices for high end arranger and high end WS, the arrangers are always more expensive. Korg M3 ($2200.00), Korg PA800 (2800.00), Korg PA2x (3400.00). Why then if I am going to play in a band I will purchase an arranger? If we look in the "used" market the difference is even bigger.
3- I think that Churches are an important sector in the music market. In the area where I live there are probably 500 churches. Imagine that amount of churches performing music every Sunday. In 99 % of then the music is play in groups (bands, etc) and 99 % of then use WS.
4- Peer pressure. Because they don't know, usually musician tend to look some body playing an Arranger as a weird guy, some body that does no have the skills. Some time they call you instrument as " you Casio type keyboard". Even here in SZ, I have read reviews of arrangers that look "more professional" because X model have no speakers and the "no professional" have then.
5- As Diki say, poor marketing in the stores. Many times, when visiting music stores, I have to volunteer, to show a interested customer what the Arrangers can do, because the sales people don't have a clue.

Montunoman, I don't think there is a single, isolated, reason (silver bullet) why arrangers are less popular in the US than in other areas of the world. And no, I don't think American players are better trained and more skillful (implying that they don't need the 'bonuses' provided by an arranger as much as their non-USA counterparts). Actually, I think the answer is a compilation of most of the reasons listed in the above posts. Most of the posts have valid and logical reasons, and therefore all (of these reasons) probably contributes to this curious situation. That being the case, none of us are wrong or right; we are probably all a little bit right. So many things factor into this; which culture values technology more? Which ones values habit, customs, and tradition? Education, personal (per capita) income, even a country's pub habits, all probably play a role. Someday we'll figure it all out, but we'll all be in heaven by then (well, not all of us).

chas

It’s all down to marketing

Arrangers are designed for Home Players, and are marketed to them. (If you asked a home user what a workstation was, most wouldn’t have a clue, in fact as manufactures put the workstation name on their arrangers, most home users think they are)

WS are designed for Pro Gigging/Studio musicians, and are marketed to them, and this is why most of them don’t have a clue what an arranger is. (Most consider them as toys for young kids in their bedroom)

If you want to change the above, you will have to change the manufactures mind, so as to market them at the other set of users.

WS & Arrangers do cross each other’s lines at times, but in very very small numbers.

BTW: The reason Korg arrangers have more advanced features, is because they do not have a long term home user market history, so they have worked from the WS down, whereas Yamaha has both, and so their arrangers develop bottom up.

Bill

To be honest, firstly, let me say a big shoutout to Squeak who, IMO, has hit the nail squarely on the head. Yes, younger players want some of the classic rhythms and styles, but they are not going to buy a keyboard (of ANY kind, not just arrangers) that is ONLY capable of those. It has to be able to sound contemporary as well as classic, but NO modern arranger does. But the wild success (and prompt assassination by Yamaha) of the DJX showed that, given a product that DID work well for modern music AND was an 'arranger', it was bought in droves by the younger crowd. Apparently, there's no REAL objection by the young to an arranger... just to its' CONTENT (or lack thereof!).

To be honest, I believe the assassination of the DJX was at the behoove of the WS division, who saw the writing on the wall for their difficult to use product if hip sounding arrangers became widely available...

And sorry, guys, but you can't turn back the clock. Our parents' generation's musicians would have probably been ecstatic if rock had never upset THEIR world, and we have to accept that hiphop is as dominant now as rock was in its' heyday. It took a while for keyboard manufacturers to jump on the rock bandwagon, in fact, some disappeared altogether because they WOULDN'T. I can only hope that the arranger doesn't go the same way.

It's not that the arranger COULDN'T be popular in the States. It's just that they are designed and built by Europeans (some backed by Japanese corporations), primarily FOR Europeans. It's no more likely that instruments designed specifically for Americans are likely to be used by Europeans (until it becomes mainstream and they start copying us again! ) than arrangers will sweep the US.

In my area, back in the 80's, the solo MIDI musician/keyboardist was the King for a while. Maybe a decade or so. Howard Jones, Human League, synth pop etc., that was the music on the charts, and the MIDI keyboardist was the player to play it. But now, acoustic guitarists rule the roost. There's probably a dozen or more for every keyboard player (conservatively!). Frankie mentioned the resurgence in ukulele playing (the poor man's - and player's - guitar). Most popular music is hiphop, and that just isn't a solo form of music. Even rapping takes a team, a crew...

So, the solo keyboard player is now primarily an older guy, playing classic tunes, maybe some jazz in a restaurant, maybe even a real piano (or stage piano). But the plethora of solo MIDI musicians has stopped being popular. So, in fairness, I don't think it is just the arranger that suffers in the US. On the whole, I see FAR fewer young keyboard players than there used to be...

It will change again, in a decade or two or three. It always does. Something gets popular, and what does it best gets to be the King. Maybe it'll be keyboards, maybe the accordion makes a comeback, maybe something nobody saw coming.

But, if arrangers want to survive as more than a niche product to an ever diminishing field of players in the US, the manufacturers got to start thinking that, when they make 'ethnic' versions of an arranger, the USA is one of those 'ethnic' areas. Just as you can't sell arrangers in the Middle East without Middle East specific sounds, styles and features, just as you can't sell arrangers in Latin America without Latin styles and sounds, you CAN'T sell arrangers in the US in any significant numbers until they do AMERICAN music.

Which, I'm afraid to say (as much as some of us would like to pretend otherwise) is HIPHOP

Diki.., I've been talking about Yammies decision to cut the DJX line for years now It was a VERY big seller for them. In fact it was TOO BIG of a seller.

I remember talking to someone associated with Yamaha years ago who "hinted" that the DJX (the original) hit much harder than they expected, and that through marketing research they found not only the younger crowd leaning on it.., but the pros were snapping them up too because they were just so darn cheap, and sounded like no other arranger on the market. The old blue had a ribbon controller, control knobs, DJ like features for mixing the styles by using the lower end of the keys to mute and solo style parts.., and much more. Yamaha had a HUGE winner in that model.

Yammies move to the DJX-II was a clear indicator that they wanted to "move" the targeted group on the line (or at least scare another off).

Arrangers CAN without a doubt be popular here in the USA. It's not just the consumers that have to change, but the keyboard makers have to stop being so closed minded on the issue.

What happens when you allow the arranger divison and workstation division to play on the same playground....??? Well.., you get the Korg PA series! Korg is even in a good position here to change the market. Could you imagine how HUGE the sales on the PA series would be if they added special style sections for modern music? They already have great synth engines with tons of editing, good sequencers, ect. The PA series is already 90% there.

If any company is in the best position to do it..., I would say Korg's the first choice, then Roland. Yammies arrangers (even pro models) don't currently have the editing power of Korg.., and neither does Roland, but they already have a good start with the GW-8 line.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-28-2010).]

Editing sounds is the least of it. Modern hiphop and techno musics revolve around arpeggiators. And they are VERY different to styles. Styles try to analyze what you play. Arpeggiators just play whatever you play, and don't mess with the notes.

Plus, the Korg PA series is based on a ten year old (or older) set of samples. Sure, it's a Triton, to a certain extent, but even Korg have moved on. How about a PA with an M3 engine? Karma, modern hiphop drums, that sort of thing...

That would wake up the US market to arrangers! DJX was a great product. Amnesia is a terrible thing for a company to have...

both the Korg PA2x and the Korg M3 use the EDS sound engine.

Not that the sound engine matters all that much for contemporary hip hop that still relies heavily on samples .Anyway pretty much any sound used in contemporary hip hop or dance music today can be emulated or created using technology designed 5 years ago. its all to do with the skill of the sound designer and less to do with the technology used to make the sound. It does not take much to fool the ear to create the same sound using different techniques.

sorry if i am off topic

The engine might be contemporary, but those samples are pretty much 10+ years old. A lifetime in dance music...

Just as open arrangers seem to have trouble without the TOTL content being provided for the user, it would benefit Korg to make a sampler load with the 'best of the M3' dance sounds and styles, which could be loaded OVER say the Ballroom ROM bank, or Bossa Nova sections of ROM styles (you can always load them back in later.

But a PA2 on the store shelves, with a bunch of REALLY good modern hiphop beats in it (and the cheezy oldies removed!) MIGHT be the thing to reawaken arranger respect amongst the young...

I still think some kind of arpeggiation is going to be needed, though. Curiously, all this takes is SOFTWARE, though. Korg COULD rebrand the PA line with this simple addition. Doesn't even need new hardware.

C'mon, Korg...

You could always stick a Qchord on top

TWD

I wonder how complicated this is, can it be done by someone with the 2 keyboards or you need more gears (or access to the pa2x software upgrade way) also what kind of knowledge one need to have ?

MJ

MJ, I think for a project this large and complicated, the manufacturer themselves are the ones to do the job. They have access to the original sample data, and the arps and loops in the M3 (it's their copyright, actually), so they ought to be the ones profiting from it, I guess...

They also have access to the sample decompression routines inside the PA (their ROM is probably compressed 2:1, so you would get double the samples compared to a straight sample load), and other parameters probably hidden from the general user...

The thing is, the product needs to be commercially available. That's the only way the arranger is going to make a resurgence, IMO...

I think that TOTL arrangers are going to price themselves out of existence. It's already getting to the point that only well-heeled ol' folks can afford them. When it gets to the point that the manufacturers can no long get 4500-5000.00 for a machine that should be priced around 1800.00, R&D will cease and they (TOTL) will disappear like the dinosaurs. BOTL and lower MOTL will continue with BOTL being the last to go. This will be the likely scenario unless some company like Casio comes out with a blockbuster that sets a new standard for price and technology. Could happen.....probably won't. Why? Casio wouldn't be motivated to do it without a large or potentially large American market. That market won't exist until such a machine becomes available......therefore, Catch22. JMO.

chas

I don't believe that $5,000 is too high a price for a TOTL. Fifty years ago, top of the line keyboards such as Vox, Farfisa, Rhodes, and Gibson were at least $1,000. In 1980, keyboards such as the Sequential Prophet 5 cost $5,000. When you consider inflation, $5k isn't a bad price for the TOTL.

Duane O
Sacramento, CA

Certainly not. Many of my T3 clients are retired on a modest income.

I don't know who you consider as "ol' folks", but the majority of the T3 users I'm in contact with, are in their 50's and early 60's.

At 60 myself, I don't feel old...just older.

$5000 isn't outrageous for people to spend on a full time hobby...many people spend more on golfing, or other hobbies.

I still move a lot of Tyros3, although the S910 has taken fair sized piece out of it's sales, but at quite a bit less that $2000, one gets an instrument with most of the same features, sounds and styles at roughly a third of the price.

still, there will always be those who must have the best, whether it be an Acura over a Honda, or a Tyros3 over a PSR-S910.

Ian

I remember hauling a $10,000. Yamaha organ in a $500. Chevy van. It's all a matter of priorities!
DonM

I remember those days, too, but I also remember a basic PC without a HD selling for $7500.00 and up. In most other areas, the cost of technology has gotten cheaper.

chas

its a tricky one because our income's are divided up more than they used to be. Its so sad that high end keyboards like the Tyros have to justify their existance by selling large numbers to retired people who are not really skilled players. (hence features like the song libraries and registicks, one touch rythm presets, aoc and single finger chords)

I am not taking a shot at those people because many are my friends, but I honestly feel that given the choice a large number would still prefer to play an nice two manual organ.

There's absolutely nothing about an arranger that is intrinsically any more expensive that a WS. They all got keys, buttons, knobs, sliders, a nice big display, some outputs and some inputs. And don't tell me it's the content, there's just as much content in a MoXS or M3 as there is in a T3 or PA2.

But look what you get for the same price as an S910... NOBODY makes a WS with as cheesy a keybed at that price. The same money as an S910 (Yamaha's VERY MOTL arranger, especially construction-wise) buys you an 88 wooden key Korg M50 MUCH better keybed, knobs, switches, etc... MOTL of their line. Same for the Yamaha MO line, Roland Juno Stage, etc.

Now, us 50+ year old players aren't idiots (though you'd think so from how arranger makers treat us), most of us can see just how much MORE you get if you get a WS. Quality, features, capabilities, construction, you name it. Quite likely the 'home' buyer isn't looking at WS's, so they might be content to pay whatever they are asked to, but the pro has to walk past a wall of very competitive priced WS's to see the horribly overpriced toy construction arranger tucked away in the corner, as if it is ashamed...

Which it ought to be, given that price!

If they are going to ask that price, why can't they include the same quality of construction that the exact same company can put on its' WS line at the same price point..?

We are being raped, and SOME of us seem to be happy about it Stockholm Syndrome, plain and simple...

I do take your point Diki, its not nice to know that your paying for something someone else is getting for half the price.

The arrangers do have a whole lot more software development to take into consideration though, and these days 'that' time is likely more expensive than the components they are made of.

Unfortunately someone has to pay for the research costs and its normally the flagship buyers. So Tyros owners probably paid for the bulk of R&D of the S910 and over a period of years it will filter right down through the product line so that eventually the little keyboards in schools will have SA voicing and song libraries.

If it didn't happen this way you would never have lower cost items at the low end. Can you imagine the price of, say a Hammond XK1 if the cost of developing VASE III had been passed on to that keyboard instead of the B3?

(Followed by a hilariously wrong assumption about income, car prices and instrument prices.)

I don't know where you get your numbers from, but you made me laugh out loud.


------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl
Happy owner of a Roland E-80 V2

The arranger has far more useful content than a workstation...that's why it costs more.

It's content also costs more to develop.

It's far more useful on a gig than a workstation...something you have boasted about on this forum many times.

Don't worry...I agree with you.

Now, your G70 was way more money than a far better feeling, fully loaded 88 note weighted action workstation (let alone a better feeling 76'er), and yet you bought one. Actually, you bought two of them.

At gunpoint?

You can't rape the willing.

Either that, or you, and the rest of us who use arrangers, are hypocrites, and I seriously doubt that, my friend.

BTW, I've never had one complaint about the PSR-S910's price...not one.

Considering you are getting most of the content of a T3 (and actually, more than any equivalently priced arranger), it is a definite bargain.

I do understand that coming to any PSR keyboard from a weighted, or semi-weighted action would surely make the keyboard feel lighter to the touch, but they are fast, smooth, have terrific velocity response (you can actually play a key very slowly and there is no sound; the same as a piano)...and very reliable.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-30-2010).]

Those are the kinds of 'general truths' that are 'specific lies'. Obviously, it depends on the gig. There are hardly any jazz gigs where that statement would be true. In a classic coffee house setting, mightn't a singer/songwriter with an acoustic guitar be better suited to the gig than some guy whaling away on his Tyros 3 (in fully orchestrated compressed CD mode ).

We have to stop using general statements to make our point. Somebody is liable to believe you.

chas

Generally true, Chas, but we have already established that although a dedicated and accomplished jazz player might not buy an arranger, there are exceptions like Oscar Peterson, and perhaps yourself and Pasodoble (Noel)...but, no, you probably would not gig with one.

Tell me, why would a guy like Oscar, buy a PSR-9000 Pro, over a workstation?

Since this is a "general arranger forum", I'm confident that your use of generalised statements is as legit as mine.

Generalizations or not, I'm sure people will still believe what they want, anyway.

Ian




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-30-2010).]

Temporary insanity?????? Why do (some) people eat pig intestines (chitterlings, aka chitlins' in the South)? Why do birds sing (actually, it's more like a 'tweet'....so shouldn't they be credited with 'Twitter'?).

The thing is, did Oscar GIG with a 9000 Pro? I've dated a lot of ladies that I wouldn't bring home to Momma. Lots. Besides, wasn't Oscar a consultant or contributor to Keyboard magazine at one point. Lots of famous musicians have toyed around with 'electronica'; Miles, Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea, are just a few that come to mind. But nobody associates them with anything other than their primary instrument. I'm sure lots of great drummers have electronic kits or even drum machines, but you won't find them gigging with them, especially the drum machine, the drummers equivalent of an arranger.

This is the second time you've used Oscar and the 9000Pro in the same post. I'd be careful......Oscar may be listening......and frowning .

chas

Now that I've had more time to think about it, it was probably the Canadian influence that prompted him to buy an arranger .

chas

Possibly, one of your clinics.

chas

Probably not, but that does preclude the 9000 pro from being more useful, and easier to use than a workstation.

I spent a few hours with Oscar, showing him how the 9k worked...nice man.

Still not a piano player on this earth that can compare, in my opinion.

Ian

A Toyota Camry is more useful and easier to use than a Formula 1, but I'm not going to enter one in the Italian Gran Prix.

chas

Of course not...nor would you go to the grocery store in a Formula One (it might be a hoot, but no trunk).

You may as well get a Nissan GT-R and have the best of both worlds (My buddy has one...goes like stink..seats four).

Seriously, an arranger is every bit as powerful as a workstation...just in a slightly different way.

My preference to be sure, and obviously the choice of the members on this forum.

Besides, with my laziness, I don't want anything with the word "work" written on it, or associated with it...bad for my image.

Ian

BTW...why did you buy your arranger? Do you find/think it's easier to use than a workstation?

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-30-2010).]

Partly for the same reason I bought my Wii system, they're fun. But also as a musical sketch pad; a quick way to demo a tune or see how it would sound in a certain style. The thing is, I'm not a big workstation fan either, I only have one 'true' workstation, the Fantom G7, and I mainly use that as just a straight synth. It's not much more useful to me than my SonicCell (but that's my fault). Actually, I guess you could call the Motif ES a WS, as well, but I use it the same way. Both are overkill for me as I never use on-board seq's and samplers or arps. With the aid of a drum machine (or arranger drums), I can put together a song via multi-tracking just about as quick as I can with an arranger, AND it'll be more of what I want it to sound like.

I like arrangers, will probably always have one around the studio, will probably never gig with one (like Oscar ), will probably spend long periods between upgrades, as the newest features are things I probably wouldn't use anyway (plus I hate learning new ways of doing things). For MY purposes, I agree with your assertion that arrangers are easier to use than WS's, but again, that depends on what you want to do with them. Heck, I even think that arranger drums are easier to use than a drum machine, and it's usually my first choice when putting down a quick and dirty rhythm track. This will change as soon as I get proficient enough to lay down a rhythm track with my new electronic drum kit (@ 2018 ).

chas

I also find an arranger great for quickly putting down ideas.

Arranger drums are easier than a drum machine or workstation, especially "live"...ask Diki.

My Yamaha boss and I were using one for doing demo songs for a pal of ours, who used to send tunes to Nashville as "fillers" for country performers to use to fill up album space, but he (the pal) passed away just before Christmas.

We could do two or three songs in an afternoon, of very good quality...used the arranger for drums and bass and some piano, organ and strings...especially bass, as it is mostly pretty simple.

I'm still not gigging...don't feel like it yet...kind of a slump...it will pass, I've had them before, and it is actually good to have the winter off, as it isn't too pleasant hauling gear with slippery sidewalks and steps...and unpredictable weather, especially here on the coast.

Minus 15 today...beautiful...might not even need a jacket.

Ian

I had no CHOICE when I got my first G70... HAD to pay full price, and nothing else had the same combination of things I needed. But that didn't make me feel any less sore, after seeing MoES8's for LESS than I payed for my G70 My used one was a great deal, otherwise I wouldn't have got it... (Oh, and BTW, there isn't a better 76 keybed on ANYTHING at any price! )

And I'm sorry, but you just aren't looking at the big picture, Ian... Just because you might not actually USE all their features, there are EXTENSIVE features on a modern WS that require at least as much development as an arranger. Most of them, nowadays, for just ONE example, have complete multi-track DAW's, with plug-ins, graphical displays, automation and mastering features (all missing from arrangers). I wouldn't discount the expense of developing these wunderkind machines so lightly.

As to using a G70 over a WS for live gigs... I guess I'm one of the few, but I do a LOT of 'pick up' gigs, and my style involves doing a LOT of split keyboard, multiple sound playing (I have long given up the hassle of hauling multiple keyboards around!). No, I don't use the style section at all for these, but I am expected to be able to call up the sounds I need at the drop of a hat for each tune, and a WS just isn't quick enough at that particular task.

I make no apologies EVER turning up to any gig with one of these, and I have NEVER been disparaged for it, even BEFORE they hear me play it! It's just a keyboard, as far as anyone else is concerned. I doubt any of us go up to a guitarist and piss and moan because he has a looper in his pedal-board, especially if he doesn't use it! I still don't get this 'chip on the shoulder' mentality about arrangers. NOBODY CARES...

All they care is how you PLAY, guys...

And yes, I WAS raped when I bought my G70. And I am NOT happy about it. But they don't make a WS with the same keybed and ease of live use as my G70 (or I would have bought it and saved myself a fortune).

Strange with such a great keyboard, Roland chose to use it on an arranger, and I believe, a controller.

Is it still being used on anything new, or has it gone the way of the TOTL/MOTL arrangers and the chord sequencer?

Sometimes I wonder what's behind Roland's thinking.

I've owned/demoed/and have done clinics on workstations, Diki, but they are just too tedious for me. I want to play, not work.

Give me a great arranger like an S910, and I'm very happy...both with it's performance, and the great price.

It's too bad about your unhappy experience from paying so much for the G70. At least it fits your needs, and you were lucky enough to get the second one at a better price.

Ian


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-30-2010).]

Hello everybody,

I would tend to agree that arranger are a ripp off, had buy a 910 3 weeks ago and i was verry unhappy about the keybed, lack of functions and toys feeling...

yesterday i took it back and came home with a M3 and let me tell you that this is a real pro instrument for only a couples hundreds more buck that i paid for the 910..

just a couples of points:

1- Keybed and quality construction is 1000% better, THAT is a nice keybed

2- Possibility are way more interresting, lots and lots of possibility (and way more complicated)

3- Karma function are amazing, Karma is an algorythm that use what you play to create accompagnement and send it back to you, very very interesting in the kinds

4- Lots of addons like the touch screen that can be use as a playing area, joystick, ribbon controller...

So it true that it is more difficult to play than an arranger but the point is that i have soooo much more in workstation world than in arranger for the sames money (i know i paid more but still, remover 1/5 of the functions and it will stay a better deal) so I am telling that s910 cost a lot more than it should in comparaison..

Oh, All PSR was in the corner of the stores feeling like in shame, maybe they did something wrong as they where in punition

Take Care
MJ

Mystic Jammer,

If you haven't already, it might be a good idea to visit Korg's User Forum at this link:

http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/

It's free to join, I hear they are a great bunch, and they'll help you learn all about your new M3.

Best of luck,

Ian

Thanks Ian, you'r a gentleman

Yeah, Ian. You're a real peach .

chas

Why thank you, Chas...that's plum nice of you to say. At least this thread has not been fruitless.

Lettuce hope we never have to turnip our noses at anyone's choice of keyboard, and we will Romaine open-minded and squash any unfair comments.

That artichoke you up.

Indeed it did. Absolutely brilliant. Almost as brilliant as the 'don't let the door hit you in the ass' post that preceeded it .

chas