Change the name of the General Arranger forum? Never. But in reading through the last few popular posts, I realized several things. First, with few exceptions, when you talk about WORKING (gigging) arranger players, what you're really talking about are professional ENTERTAINERS and/or SINGERS who have chosen self-played arranger keyboards as their preferred (for whatever reason---musical, financial, social) method of musical accompaniment and support...........which leads to the second point:
The TYPE or BRAND of keyboard has much more to do with the player than with the audience. I think people like Don Mason and a few others have proven over and over again that if the singing is good and the act is PROFESSIONAL, it's going to sound good regardless of the keyboard you use. Sure, (the styles of) some boards may be more suited to one type of gig or audience (re: Stevenm52+S910+Nursing Home) than another, but I'm sure you could make that case for every single arranger keyboard out there. Tony still plays his Technics 6000 (sounds damn good, too ) and as far as I can tell, has no desire to change it. I think he 'gets it'.

Of course this is just a long-winded, roundabout way of saying, don't get so defensive, hostile, put out, abrasive, mean-spirited, ornery, obtuse, nutso, mad, emotional, etc., etc., over someones comment or opinion of your favorite keyboard. Just chill out and enjoy the inner satisfaction of hating theirs (but choosing to take the high ground and not telling them so). Remember, if you're a pro, it's the SINGING, stupid.

Now, if you really want to take your life into your hands, just say something negative about the Nord C1, unquestionably the finest keyboard ever. (Sigh) when will those XK1, XK3c, BX3, VK8, users wise up.



chas

Well, Chas, if I may be brutally honest about the Nord C1...and don't take this the wrong way...the Nord C1 is ....sorry, someone at my door...

Okay, I'm glad that's off my chest!

Taike



------------------
Bo pen nyang.

It isn't hard to say something negative about a product, as no product will ever be the perfect fit for all users...

Try using Nord instruments as master keyboards... Its the one thing that made me decide to buy a soundless straight masterkeyboard instead of a clavia Stage EX. (well that and the monay difference)as the heart of my software set-up.
Tough i really like the sound of Clavia's keyboards and the keybeds they use i dont fancy their red looks that much.

But then i have no clue why you post this at all, as your podt title doesn't real comply with the content of your post..

Keep in mind that some people really like expressing and defending their opinions even when they know that other people havedifferent opinions about the item that are viable as well from their point of view

Bachus, the Nord thing was joke. Sorry you missed it.

chas

Gee Chas...why did you waste your money on that ugly red Hammond wannnabe? It doesn't even smell like a Hammond. You're going to have to get a rag soaked with tone generator oil and hide it inside the C-1.

Here's my opinion, for what it's worth...

Those who are bashing are actually doing more harm than good for their product, as it is quite obvious they are just trying to make their product look better at the expense of another.

Several friends of mine who lurk on SZ have said that to me already...and that's why I'm trying not to do it anymore, but I must say, it's sometimes very difficult.

Seems that anytime anyone says anything bad about Korg, the same ones regurgitate the same tired old defenses.

Call down Roland, and the same bunch suddenly appear and go bonkers on everything else.

Step on a Yamaha user's toes, and they get just as bonkers and regurgitate equally as many defenses.

Mediastation? Audya? No different.

Whether we like it or not, someone bashing what someone else plays is more than likely going to be taken as a personal slight.

Childish? Maybe, but I doubt it. It's more a human trait, than a maturity issue.

We choose a keyboard because we love the sound/features/weight/ key feel, and all of those things are personal...we believe, after much research and testing, that we have wisely invested our hard earned money into a certain brand and model, also a very personal act, and we like to feel we've chosen the best for our needs...again a personal decision.

Then someone decides to start aggressively and tactlessly bashing our personal choice in something.

It's like you (figuratively) walking into another person's home, and saying they should have bought the kind of furniture that you use, because their stuff is crap compared to your much better choice.

It's like saying you (again, figuratively) saying that someone's taste in music is stupid, or weird because it does not conform to your obviously superior choice of another genre.

I've seen skirmishes happen here that started over who was the best jazz organist (Jimmy Smith, of course), who had made the best choice in computers, like PC vs. Mac (by the way, PC is better) the color of a keyboard (Blue?), the number of keys an arranger should have (61 is the best)....these are all personal choices....and the debates (that's using a nice word) are always ultimately, no-win situations.

All it ends up as, is a bunch of people with hurt or angry feelings, that will jump at a chance to get even at the first opportunity.

I've been there, so I'm no saint, but I'm not buying into it anymore...maybe I'll slip a bit, but I'll keep trying...it's still better than making bad friends and going around looking for opportunities for retaliation.

Life is too short for that foolishness.

Ian

Good post, Ian. And don't worry about 'slipping' now and then. Everybody does. The important thing is to make sure that's not your ONLY mode of operation. I've noticed that DonM never lashes back when the Audya bashing starts, nor does Fran take the bait when the Mediastation Station bashing starts (now Roland, that's a different story ). But I disagree with you on one point, Ian; I think it does, to a large degree, have to do with MATURITY (of course, I'm no expert on that particular subject ).

chas

It could be, Chas...we musicians, well, me at least, haven't really grown up....that's why we "play" instead of "work".

I got into it because it was easy work, a lot of fun, and a great way to meet girls.

That's mature, isn't it?

Ian

Good post Ian, and you are right, life if very short. I have lost several dear friends in recent years, all of whom were synthzone members. Ironically, they were among those that did not enter into those type of discussions.

Cheers,

Gary

It's funny you mention DonM, as I was thinking the same thing.

Maybe he writes down a really nasty and clever reply, and then just doesn't post it.

We'll never cure Fran of his "Rolanditus"...only one that can wreck that would be Roland itself.

Nothing wrong with being a fanboy...I'm one and proud of it.

It's okay to praise your favorite 'board or manufacturer to the highest, but I don't think it's doing yourself, or your own choices, any favors by taking cheap and tactless potshots at another person's selection or another company's products.

I can't guarantee I'll never do it again, but I'll sure as hell try hard enough not to.

Ian

I HAVE done that quite often, Ian! But never about someone's choice of keyboards, usually about choice of words.
I'm so wishy-washing about changing keyboards, I'm afraid I might have to eat my words if I criticize too much.
I currently have seven keyboards, two Rolands, an Audya a PSR2000, a Casio and two controllers.
Also have HankB's SD5, but only to sell it for his wife.
I've only had two keyboards that I totally didn't get along with, the Korg PA800 that was released with bad sound and a Roland G800 that kept breaking.
I have been critical about various aspects of most all the brands, especially Yamaha's drum kits and vocal harmonizer, Rolands lack of break-fills, Korg's limited fill-ins and lack of styles suitable for me. I dislike some of the hardware placement on the Ketrons, including the location of the pb wheels and style-control buttons, and I also am waiting for more diverse lead instrument sounds.
Thanks for singling me out, but there are lots of folks here who "bite their tongues" and try to post primarily positive thoughts, or at least stay away from getting into the personality-type battles.
Over the years I have been guilty of losing it on several occasions but I generally regret it later.
I deeply respect those who post in a language that is not native to them. I think that can lead to misunderstandings sometimes.
I also appreciate several people in particular who have made obvious efforts to be, shall we say, more diplomatic.
All in all, this board is one of the really tame ones on the internet. I'm extremely grateful for the friends I've "met" here and for all the help I've received.
Even though, I obviously have made by far the best choices in gear over the years.
DonM

chas ... thnx for the kind words ... I take that as quite a compliment ... ...
For several years I have heard people on this forum complain that their kb didn't have one feature or another, and I would think - hmmm, my kn6000 has that - ... I honestly feel technics was pretty far ahead of the curve with their arranger kbs ...Now I'm not saying that my kb has EVERY feature I would ever want, but it certainly has pretty much what I need (I would REALLY like midi 'markers' ), and the styles are great for what I do - Country Clubs, restaurants, some senior club stuff -
And you are right, I do not have a desire to change ... the kb suits me, and since the majority of what I have on the internal hard drive is proprietary to technics, I would HATE to start over ...
t.
PS: ... play what you like and make BEAUTIFUL MUSIC ...
t.

I am always hoping an ADULT conversation might break out about arrangers... I'm always trying to point out that these things are MACHINES, not family. I am as critical about aspects of my G70 as I am about things like the PSR's keybed, the Korg's paltry two fills (and a B/F), the Audya's lack of complete chord vocabulary for audio loops, the MS's lack of content and complexity... etc., etc., etc.. (imagine all this in a Yul Brynner accent )

These are all faults that are commented on consistently. Can you play on a PSR and get used to it? Of course... but does that negate the 'general' opinion? IMO, no it doesn't. Can you get by without six or seven fills? Yes, you can. But would you WANT to? Could the G70 give you a hernia? If you lift it wrong, sure!

The whole POINT of discussing these things should NOT be a desire to denigrate others' choice of tool for making music, but to get a frank and honest discussion about improving the breed. And the only way that happens is if owners and potential owners alike are candid about things that COULD be improved in their choice of arranger. The manufacturers DO come here. They DO pay attention. But while they see actual OWNERS of their products conduct a campaign of denial of flaws, and laud them as the best thing since sliced bread, where is the knowledge that things could change for the better going to come from..?

Just like yourselves, it is all too easy to confuse fanboy gushing for actual FACTS...

Let's take Ian's keybed, as an example. Ian likes it, has gotten used to it, but i GUARANTEE that if they replaced it with the keybed that is on a MoXS6, he would love it just as much (and if it had started out with as good a keybed, Ian would be dismissing other keyboards with as flimsy a keybed as vehemently as most do here) and start to gush as enthusiastically about it as he does with what he has. If Korg suddenly added another four fills or more, who here would actually COMPLAIN? If the MS came out with a style and sound set that rivaled the best of YK&R, would anyone mind? If Audya added sus4 chords, augs and dims, 7#9's, etc., would their owners bitch about it?

Not on your life!

But TALK about the issues now, before those things happen, and you would think so...

We either step up to the plate, and start to discuss these things as if it IS possible to improve them, or we go back to this playground mentality, and potentially lose the changes for our own arrangers that we (secretly) WOULD like to see.

Me... well, I'd LOVE 10 lbs. shaved off my G70! I'd LOVE some multipads, a Break/Fill (or three!), some SA sounds and a guitar mode that works with the style, I'd love a lyric display in style mode (E series has that), I'd love renamable ROM style presets (you can change the ROM styles, but you can't rename them ), I'd love a USB stick port (only got 'to computer'), and I'D LIKE MY BLOODY CHORD SEQUENCER BACK....

Anyone that has ever surfed the Roland-arranger forum, particularly the Suggest New Features forum knows I am one of the BIGGEST critics of the arranger. There is SO much that could be improved... And, if you were honest with yourselves and us here, if you have a brain in your head, you could probably come here with a list nearly as long of things YOU would like improved and changed. But instead, many of you grasp your pens (figuratively) and leap to the defense of your chosen tool. And that isn't going to help ANYTHING...

Yes, for all its' flaws, whatever we have chosen is the best for us that could be gotten, right now. But that does NOT mean it couldn't be improved, that flaws we have got used to couldn't be improved, and good ideas from other lines ought NOT to be added to our own OS's...

But that is NEVER going to happen while you all are so publicly uncritical of your choice. Man up, and start to TALK about it. It's the only way things are going to change...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-19-2010).]

They where miles ahead of anything else, quallity and vision... Only GEM with their WX2 got slightly ahead on inovation for a year or so, but for the rest, it was Technics way ahead of the rest...

I dare bet my last few cents that when technics would have not been removed from the market todays keyboards would be more technically advanced.

Nope...wrong guy and wrong example...you should not assume what I would, or would not like, or what my reaction would be, Diki...that's another thing that makes things go south on this forum.

For this forum to run more smoothly, it will require a bit more of your attention to where and when you wander over the line...of course that applies to all of us, I suppose.

Speaking for me, or someone else, and/or assuming how they will react in a hypothetical situation is hardly considered netiquette in my books.

If you must do it, pick someone else please.

Thank you.

Ian

The point I was trying to make, Ian, is that IN GENERAL, most here consider the PSR series' keybed to be sub par, particularly for such an expensive keyboard. There isn't a single other keyboard in the same price range with as flimsy a keybed, neither WS, not arranger, nor synth.

Perhaps I DID make a projection, but you have to admit that, as uncritical as you are to whatever Yamaha you are using, and as little comment that you make whenever things change (which they do every model change), it is hard to accept that, IF Yamaha had included the same keybed that grace their WS lines, you wouldn't be as enthusiastic as you are now. Let's face it, what was the LAST thing you criticized a PSR for? Bueller? Bueller...? Bueller..... . . . ?

It would be a LOT easier to accept your uncritical acceptance of the keybed, if you were willing to acknowledge any other shortcomings of the PSR, but when we all see such biased reportage from you (you never admit ANY flaw, you never wish for features from other arrangers to be added to the PSR, you never have much of a wishlist of things you'd like added), it is kind of hard to believe that, underneath the veneer of partisanship, there doesn't at least lurk a TINY desire for something to change.

In all fairness, as invested in Yamaha's success as you seem to be, it is difficult for us to think that, should Yamaha decide that they are going to replace the keybed with one more in tune with its' price range, that you would criticize THAT decision, either... The PSR3k was perfect, too, if I recall. So, is the better display annoying you? No, it isn't. And IF they added a better keybed, it is hard to believe that you would, all of a sudden, turn into a Yamaha critic for that decision, either.

We aren't talking about going from the PSR to an 88 wood, or even the heavier G70 action. Just the action that Yamaha think SHOULD be on its' $1800 WS's. I've never heard you criticize THOSE for NOT having the PSR's keybed...

But, your response gets to the point of my original post. IF we all were more willing to discuss flaws, of ANY kind, with each other, it would be a lot easier to accept things like your preference for the keybed, under the knowledge that you WERE willing to talk about things that you DO want changed. But when one is SO uncritical about an entire product, it is hard to separate out the issues that you DO like from those you might not, but refuse to discuss.

And, I'm sorry, but I still find it hard to accept that, if Yamaha put an FSX keybed into a PSR, you would EVER complain about it. I truly believe that you would do what you have already done... gotten used to it, uncomplainingly. You 'got used' to the new display, didn't you?

Well,
If you don't sing...the arranger choice is very important. Much more so that if you do sing as a major part of your performance.

After all if the audience isn't listening to you sing...then that darn sax (or whatever) better be good!

That's why I am so critical of the realism and quality of the instruments on my boards.

And...all the brands have some better than other sounds.

In this day of technology, quite honestly, with the low cost of memory (eletronics in general) ALL the arranger mfg's need to do a lot better on sound quality (especially solo voices).

Example given: The sound of the voice should not drastically change from note to note....I mean vibrato speed/depth, timbre, loudness, anyting tha will disturb the prformance in any way.

Too many recycled old samples and poor programming. IMHO. On all brands.

Lee S.

So, don't accept it...I don't care, my friend. That's your problem, not mine.

I have stated many times, in many posts, that I prefer the PSR's keyboard to the Tyros' FSX...if you paid attention to what I wrote, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

As far as I'm concerned it stops here...just work a little harder on being polite, and please don't assume, or predict what my feelings about something would be...if you need to know, all you had to do was ask, not make stuff up.

That's poor manners, in my book.

I'm not the first one you've done this to, but it would be best for both of us, if you exclude me from your assumptions from now on.

I don't do it to you, so I don't think it is too much to ask for the same in return.

Ian

But, while the low cost of memory ought to make what you said a thing of the past, it doesn't address the high cost of recording and preparing those samples... Keyboard prices keep falling, but we want MORE in them all the time!

If you look at the cost of some of the VERY high quality sax soundsets for soft samplers, with every note sampled multiple times, loads of performance key triggered notes, exceptional smoothness across a wide range, you are talking some hefty money. Now extrapolate that to EVERY other sound in the entire soundset, and you end up with an arranger no-one could afford.

To be honest, I am amazed that things are so GOOD, not so bad, at the prices we tend to pay.

Ian, I don't know how I COULD express my opinion in a more polite manner. The fact that you don't agree with it doesn't stem from the WAY I said it. You and I both know that there are others on this forum that are incapable of expressing something without insult and taunt, but no matter what we disagree on, we both refuse to get nasty and personal about it. Reasonable men can agree to disagree reasonably.

Yes, I know you have stated you prefer the PSR keybed, many times. I DO remember what you wrote. But you have failed to even MENTION the crux of my post, which is that, without any other critical mention of a Yamaha feature, how is one to separate out the TRUE likes from the uncritical acceptance? It's BALANCE that I wish we had. You know that I am as willing to post my opinions about Roland's poor features as I am its' strong points, and perhaps that lends credence to what I say when I DO gush a bit.

But I don't feel insulted when someone suggests that I MIGHT like my G70 a bit lighter, or with a better guitar system, or even a better piano sound. I may not agree with that (especially the latter) but at least, unless it is presented in a vicious, personal way, I don't feel insulted. I am not accusing you of being Communist (despite most Americans equating social democratism as the same thing!), or a pedophile or even a curling fan... Nor am I getting insulted that you think I'm insulting you (which I'm not ).

I'm just posting about my thoughts... And you and I BOTH know that, if I DID want to insult you, there wouldn't be any question about it! I respect you too much for that, and I hope that you can revisit how you feel about my post with a more detached viewpoint. It's a disagreement, NOT an insult, and I hope that you can see the difference. I simply can't figure out how to make my point any politer... all the reference to the keybed is just an EXAMPLE of how things get out of hand when we don't openly discuss everything. I'm sorry if you saw it differently. It wasn't intended that way. Honestly...



Thing is, Ian, if they DID replace it with an FSX keybed, WOULD you then complain? That is what I have trouble believing, not that you prefer the action...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-19-2010).]

Interesting thread...

I have to say that I think Diki is presenting his case in a very respectful fashion. Perhaps he didn't use the best example when he involved Ian, but I didn't read anything insulting.

Its a conversation Diki wants on this, I think...

I'm a Yamaha fan, a big one...but I'll admit there are things about it I don't care for. But in the end, its the sound I prefer over other arrangers, I'm comfortable with it and have zero plans to change brands anytime soon. Do I have the best arranger? I don't know, but for me, I'm very pleased...my audiences are very pleased and that pretty much is that.

I'm not suggesting that if I sat down with a Roland or a Korg or whatever for a few weeks I might not really develop an appreciation for those brands. I may very well like them more than the Tyros line. It'd be silly to rule that out if I haven't tried it. But its not required, so...we can kind of what if this to death...

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Yes, I believe that Diki...so it's best that you don't try and express it at all..at least to me....you are just digging a bigger hole...leave it be.

This is what you said,

"Let's take Ian's keybed, as an example. Ian likes it, has gotten used to it, but i GUARANTEE that if they replaced it with the keybed that is on a MoXS6, he would love it just as much (and if it had started out with as good a keybed, Ian would be dismissing other keyboards with as flimsy a keybed as vehemently as most do here) and start to gush as enthusiastically about it as he does with what he has."

You know you were over the line...I have never addressed you in that manner...ever...I have always met you head on, not take a swipe at you by putting you in the third person, and slapping reactions and responses that I would assume you would make.

That's not conversing on a forum...it takes two to converse.

But, if you need to use questionable tactics like this to make a point, my friend, go ahead...but please don't include me the next time.

Ian

thats fair enough comment Ian.Its a pet peeve of mine too.

Sorry Ian,

I dont see anything evil in Diki's post pointing towards you. He only uses your situation, that most people on this forum know about, as an example to express "his opinion".

WE're all making to much fuzz about things like this, as long as there is no personall harm intended in a post, its very well acceptable by me..

Now if he would have named you a explicitly a fool or some other nasty word for not accepting his opinion as the truth then that would be wrong.

i hear you Bachus but if the guy asks nicely to be left out of a posting, then its only fair that his wishes are respected.

IMHO,
The biggest conversational "trap", is the very frequently used phrase "for my needs".

Most people tend to like and to defend what they have, for the usual silly reasons: a) they paid money for it, b) it is their choice c) they don't like to realise or to be told about their mistakes.

So when others point out shortcomings on their sound , their setup, suggest changes for the better, suggest alternatives and so on, we run to the "best for my needs" wall, and the conversation ends. No bad things come from staing that this is the "best of my needs" and this catchphrase silences the opposition.

Of course, no good things could come out of this. It is like every mother that thinks their offspring is the most beautiful. Well mom, sorry but it isn't, period. Your child has the biggest nose ever recorded in history.

I agree with Diki about the balance thing, and he presented it with at least a lot more politeness than other times where I criticised him for that. Constructive critisism is all we need.

On the other hand, some here who propose alternatives, they don't do it out of a genuine need to make things better for the others, they just want to bash them or to steer them to a certain direction. One needs to have a very analytical thought to shift through the garbage and realise which post is genuine help or at least genuine opinion and not a nonsence blurb made for baiting others and start a meningless conversation and which is actual advice.

Maybe that is why the "active" posting member number has dwindled over the years?

On a lighter side, maybe we should omit the word "General" from the title of the forum. Some people here believe it is an open invitation for them to run their own little army, to command around and have subordinates. In one word, to be the "Generals" of the arranger forum.

Thank you, Spalding.

When someone assumes they "know" what my reactions, replies and choices would be, and then posts about it on this public forum, in a disrespectful and flippant manner, I have no other recourse than to respond as I did above.

I don't need someone to speak for me...my voice on this forum is my own, as are my opinions and choices.

I don't do this type of thing to anyone, and therefore I have very clearly, and reasonably, asked that it not be done to me.

I'm not being picky or overly sensitive...I just don't like being disrespected.

Thank you for your understanding.

Ian

Well, sadly this has taken a turn different from the original intent. In fact, we can even see WHERE that turn occurred. But, back to one of the two points I was trying to make (which only one person actually addressed), and that is, that on most OMB arranger gigs, it's the SINGING, not the arranger playing, that gets the folks out of their wheelchairs and onto the dance floor. I know that there are some exceptions, people who only do instrumental gigs, but they are in the minority and generally don't play nursing homes or dance-friendly gigs.

There are two kinds of audiences; those that are out to be entertained (in the most general sense) and those that go for the music. The first group would include Nursing homes, dance-oriented clubs, casinos, even churches. The latter would include jazz clubs, certain coffee houses, some upscale restaurants and country clubs. Obviously there is some overlap so don't bother posting that you know of an exception.

If the singing is good, assuming you belong to that majority that are singer/players, nobody is going to exclaim, "OMG, did you hear how realistic the guitar audio loop that's buried in that style was?". So again, for the benefit of those who are so obsessed about the presence or absence of every little feature or sound nuance, I'll say it again, IT'S THE SINGING, STUPID.

chas

Chas,

I couldn't agree more. Over the years I've managed to put on some awesome performances where I though the instrumentals were the best ever--no one ever said a word about them. BUT, when I have a great vocal performance, the accolades are non-stop.

Cheers,

Gary

I know many OMB's overhere in Holland that are very popular on paties and weddings... and they barely touch the keyboard (All midifile) but they are all great singers...

A friend of mine is still playing those parties and weddings with his drummer, because the drummer has an awesome singing voice, he makes less money/gig because he has to spil 50-50, but has more gigs over all. Above all he has much more fun because he can concentrate fully on playing the keys and thats where he excelss.

But in the end all the cheers and applaus go to his drummer.

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 02-20-2010).]

What I have noticed.
"Old School" Audiences: Don't much care for singers who use tracks, ala Karaoke, and who don't play an instrument. Seeing a decent singer playing an instrument is what they expect..and seals the deal.

"New School" audiences: Don't care if the music is live or coming from an iPod in his or her pocket..as long as the singer is decent and the music is dance-able.

Then there is the "Dinner Music" audience, where a live player is required to play what we have been calling "wallpaper music". You play pleasant ditties very quietly. You think nobody is listening. No singing required. At the end of the night you are approached by folks bearing compliments and gratuitie$.

Just my observations.

Eddie

Eddie..you got it right!!!

Personally, I rather listen to a great player over a great singer...any day..

unless.....that great singer is a hot lady too...

Most of my clients, that are pros, are singers first, arranger players second.

Only a few do instrumentals exclusively.

Ian

Well, I'm sorry, Ian. My posts were not INTENDED to be disrespectful, and I'm sorry, but I feel that nothing I said wasn't extrapolated from your body of posts here over the years. In all fairness, I can't count the number of times you have taken a sideways swipe at whatever arranger others were using when what is fairly deserved criticism of Yamaha arrangers is posted. I think I can recall maybe two posts from you over the last four years or more where you have been willing to voice any criticism of Yamaha at all. I'm sorry, but in my book, and I'm pretty sure in quite a few others here (but of course, I'm just assuming, before anyone ELSE gets insulted ) that puts you pretty firmly in the fanboy category that you are willing to put on others when they disagree with YOU...

To be fair, Ian, you saw me criticize Korg for the lack of fills, and extrapolate that most of their owners wouldn't be upset if Korg added more. But you aren't leaping to THEIR defense, or criticizing me for suggesting it. Only for assumptions about YOUR needs and wants. Sauce for the goose...

I can see that several here have noted my attempt to voice these opinions in the most respectful way I can. I'm sorry that it failed to make a difference. But if a complete refusal to discuss anything that can be improved in PSR arrangers ISN'T fanboy behavior, then you have to extend that to others that display the same devotion to whatever THEY play. And I haven't seen that from you. Sauce for the goose...

But all in all, I am a bit saddened to see you basically ignore the main POINT of my post, while you concentrate on an imagined slight. To be honest, it perfectly illustrates my point. Rather than an adult discussion about the issue itself (that only frank and honest discussion of flaws and potential improvements of even our OWN arrangers is ever going to raise the level of this forum past the fanboy partisanship that spoils so much of it), you chose to ignore the point in its' entirety. I'm sorry, but if you can't come up with more than one or two posts in four YEARS where you are willing to voice any reservations about the Yamaha's (and your tendency, when the PSR's get criticized for quite obvious flaws that others don't suffer by attacking THEIR arranger) it is hard to NOT lump you in with the less critical (sounds better than fanboy, doesn't it? ) faction here.

Now, we all know you are employed to clinicize and promote Yamaha arrangers, so it isn't surprising that perhaps you aren't willing to voice your criticism, but with that in mind, it's tough to get outraged when that fact is a pretty obvious conclusion to those wondering WHY you have so little negative to say abut Yamaha arrangers, when you are all TOO willing to discuss other arrangers' flaws... (for instance, you are all TOO willing to discuss the lack of style assembly onboard the GW-8, while at the same time, completely unwilling to discuss features that take software to accomplish on the PSR that are included onboard in other arrangers).

I'm sorry if that leads us to make the conclusions that so upset you, but they aren't coming from out of thin air. Your body of posts truly suggests it. If there were even a trace of frank criticism of PSR's from you (who are in quite possibly the best position to discuss them), none of this would even be contemplated. But, just as everyone draws their conclusions about how I think from what I post here (including yourself), you can't blame others for doing the same...

Do a search for 'fanboy' and your name here at SZ, you will find examples where you used it on others (for probably the same reason). I'm sorry, but sauce for the goose...

But all in all, I am a bit saddened to see you basically ignore the main POINT of MY post, which was your insulting behaviour. To be honest, it perfectly illustrates that you'll do anything to stick handle your way out of it, or around it.

It's not working.

It's either that, or you are missing my point, or you refuse to acknowledge it.

Let me make it clear again...

When YOU assume that YOU "know" what my reactions, replies and choices would be, and then post about it on this public forum, in a disrespectful and flippant manner, I consider it insulting.

I don't need YOU to speak for me...my voice on this forum is my own, as are my opinions and choices.

I don't do this type of thing to anyone, including YOU, and therefore I don't want it done to me.

Ian

I think Ian is trying his best to gracefully bow out of this discussion and I think we should let him. Frankly, I don't think he is under any OBLIGATION to find some faults with Yamaha arrangers. I don't think that he or anyone has to post to someone else's expectations. Sometimes we can intellectualize something to the point where even early sympathizers lose interest and no longer care about the rightness or wrongness of your post. It's just before we reach that point that it's time to let it go. JMO. I love both of you guys (uh, not in the biblical sense ) and want to see both of you posting, contributing, and participating fully. Let's not say anything that would jeopardize that. Now go practice your SINGING.


chas

I'm pretty sure most of the people that you have labeled 'fanboy' don't want it done to them, either. And I'm pretty sure you don't care whether they take insult at it or not. It's YOUR opinion, you feel entitled to it, despite it being patently obvious what a slam it is...

Sauce for the goose...

To be honest, this again perfectly illustrates that you'll do anything to stick handle your way out of it, or around it.

It's still not working.

Let me make it clear again...

When YOU assume that YOU "know" what my reactions, replies and choices would be, and then post about it on this public forum, in a disrespectful and flippant manner, I consider it insulting.

I don't need YOU to speak for me...my voice on this forum is my own, as are my opinions and choices.

I don't do this type of thing to anyone, including YOU, and therefore I don't want it done to me.

As Chas pointed out, I am under no obligation to answer you, and, from my perspective, especially after being insulted.

You can't demand things from people Diki, and you can't coerce or cajole or mock people without getting the consequences, which so far are small in this case, with only having me point out your disrespectful and disgraceful behavior.

My gentle suggestion to you...quit while you're behind. I'm not upset about your insults but I am surprised a nice fellow like you has to resort to them to try and make a point.

You aren't the spokesman for the forum either, as was pointed out to you several times by Nigel and others...and now me.

Mind your manners please.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-20-2010).]

Having stated - or at least strongly implied - that my kb 'satisfies my needs', I feel I want to respond (although I do not THINK that trident was referring to me directly) ...
Isn't a kb the "satisfies ones own needs" what we ALL are looking for? ... Even if two people purchase the same kb, they could be doing it for different reasons - but reasons that satisfy each one's own needs ...
and as far as kb sounds go that is SUCH a subjective argument ... some kbs may have sounds that are better than others, but if the person who purchased it is satisfied, who has the right to tell them they are wrong??? ... let's face it, if a 'gigging' musician purchases a kb that sounds like crap, he is not going to be gigging for long ...
I think that there are very few times a person can be told that that they made a mistake with their choice of kb: if they purchased a kb for a certain reason and it does not have that functionality; or if they purchased a kb for a far greater price then what they should have; or some reason similar to that ...

If one is evaluating the overall sound and balance of a person's performance, then I believe performers should definitely listen to what other performers are saying ...
As far as suggestions for other subjects, such as set-up, I agree that there are a lot of experienced players here who can offer solid advice ... but again, if someone's set up works for THEM, so be it ... and if that stops the discussion with that particular person, that does not prevent the discussion from continuing - as we have seen on threads from time to time ...

Personally, I would welcome suggestions after I have posted a song ... anything that would help me 'polish up my act' is appreciated - of course other than a suggestion to quit playing music -

In a nutshell, I guess I am saying that (to paraphrase) "one person's trash, is another's rose", and while we can - and perhaps SHOULD - offer an OPINION, it should be presented and accepted as just that - another person's OPINION ...

t.

Diki,
I do see your point...BUT...darn it they have the samples already...somewhere in their company (maybe the PRO division?)

Point in example...Korg has the samples big freeking time, after all they have the OASYS M3 etc. Yamaha definetly has the samples and the programmers to do it as well.

Yes, what I want does require some programming...but...all they want to do is tweek things up a little, throw in some new things and we are supposed to buy that new model.

We need to quit buying tem until they anti-up as to what they could really offer.

I have.

Lee S.

What are you using now, Lee?

Ian

Gary Diamond and I are friends. We talk on the phone frequently about music and many other things as well...

Its been enjoyable getting to know each other.

I know Gary has stated numerous times that he prefers Nursing Home work over that in Clubs. Its more profitable, less headaches, etc.

Are we really now at a point where if I say "Gary Diamond doesn't like to work in clubs" I've gone over some imaginary line and actually insulted him? Have I assumed that when he said/wrote that he didn't mean for all time?

If that's really where we are now, then a whole new ridiculous standard has come to be.

I've called out Diki many times in the past but I'm sorry-He's not deserving of the criticism that a few are directing at him. We've all seen Diki be rude in the past, and this isn't in the same stratosphere.

If you disagree with his assertions, then fine...just say so. But it doesn't mean he's taken some way over the top shot at anyone. He voiced an opinion...you disagreed. Fine, no big deal...

I think the drama is unnecessary...

------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 02-20-2010).]

Well, Bill...easy for you to say, as it is not your situation.

I happened to think the times you called Diki out in the past were unnecessary, and he was not deserving of the criticism you directed at him, but, unlike you, I stayed out of it, because it was none of my concern.

I also didn't take sides, as that only makes things worse, and then we would have a bigger situation; and, sometimes the people who butt in, end up getting thrashed by the people involved.

After this post, I don't plan on pursuing the matter anymore, unless Diki wants to take this further in private emails...I made my point several times, and, although I can't speak for Diki, all I can do is hope he understands what I said, and why I said it.

So, if you have any further comments, please email me directly, and let's try and close what has become an unpleasant part of this thread, right here, and right now.

This is a forum, not a fight club, and I'm sure Chas never intended for his topic to end up this way.

My apologies, Chas.

Ian

Hmm, how do I figure out if a particular thread "concerns me?" Bah...Forum members have every right to participate in any thread they choose to. I've been a member of the SZ for many years and have an appreciation for the friendliness and tolerance of differing opinions that I saw back then. You probably do as well. Neither one of us is a Johnny Come Lately. Maybe if long term members speak up more we might raise the bar a tad.



So, was spaulding out of line by taking your side? (Of course not...)



There's plenty of riffs here that go ignored and not commented on. In my opinion, you grossly over reacted to Diki's comments and took this to a higher level yourself. I have no quarrel with you not agreeing with him at all. You're good with words, you could've easily explained why you felt he was wrong and we all could've moved on. Good grief, you make it sound like he insulted you to your face, your family, your community and who knows who else? Questioned your personal character, cut you to the quick. It was, to many of us, a slight mis-step - if a mis-step at all.

To be fair, Diki tried repeatedly to explain what he meant, no malice intended, but that wasn't good enough for you. THAT's what I found overly dramatic and inappropriate on your part.

We're probably not going to agree on this and that's ok. We've never banged heads before and I don't expect we will again anytime soon. I'll ponder your words seriously and I ask you do the same to mine. Maybe we'll both be better for it?

Congrats again on your work and being recognized in Keyboard Magazine. That's one very cool feather in your cap.


------------------
Bill in Dayton


[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 02-21-2010).]

To be fair, I tried repeatedly to make my points as well, but to no avail.

Dramatic and inappropriate? Me?

Can't say I agree with you there, either...certainly no more dramatic and inappropriate than you were when you called Diki out.

I asked that the disrespectful, flippant, and totally unnecessary comments, which I pointed out very clearly, with an explanation why I found them inappropriate, to be acknowledged and then not to be repeated.

Hardly dramatic and inappropriate, my friend, and hardly a task too difficult for someone of Diki's intelligence and character.

I don't expect you to be empathetic, although it might be nice if you could, as you have had to deal with a related situation, but, failing that, I would hope your own experience might remind you to be less judgemental.

Thanks for your kind words about the article in the magazine.

Ian

Bill, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here, in the sense that I fail to see where Ian did anything wrong. In his first response to Diki's post, he stated his feelings and his case clearly and succinctly, and frankly, it should have ended there (the riff). Neither of these guys are mean or malicious, and clearly Diki was just trying to use what he considered a familiar scenario to make a point, but in so doing, introduced facts not in evidence, ie. projecting how Ian would react in a hypothetical situation. Ian didn't like it, said so, and asked that another example be used. A really lightweight apology ("sorry pal, no malice intended", etc.) followed by a different example, preferably one that didn't involve forum members (why take a chance on invoking bad feelings from someone), would have nipped this in the bud.

The biggest problem here is that both guys (both of whom I consider friends) along with a few others here (not me, of course ), suffer from "lastworditis". We just can't seem to 'let it go' without one last ditch effort to make our point (the next post for Diki or Ian is going to prove my point ).

Hey, no harm, no foul. They were friends before this and they'll be friends after this. Diki is grumpy because of all the unseasonably cold weather (for Florida) and Ian is suffering from 'cabin fever'.



chas

Me want the last word?

Never.

Ian

I ALWAYS have the last word - "YES, DEAR" ...
t.

Tony you are a wise man!!! That helps explain why have been happlily married all these years!

Oops, I hear my name being called, sorry folks I have to leave now, my wife is calling ..........be right there hun! LOL

Here's a fun tune that describes the understanding my wife and I have...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP4O6l5zbN4



------------------
Bill in Dayton

Good one Bill. That's why I always say I'm the boss of my family, and I have my wife's permission to say so!

Cheers,

Gary

Of course not, I was not referring to anyone in particular, I was referring to the "trend" of hiding behind the "it satisfies my needs" slogan to

a) hide particular drawbacks of a certain product
b) end a potentially "harmful" discussion for a particular product
c) foolishly protect the pride that goes hand to hand with any product purchase
d) the list can go on and on.

The problem is when the "my needs" defence goes beyond its exact meaning and wanders in the realm described above.

Simply put, and unavoidably using the car analogy, my car is a Hyundai Accent. It is cheap to buy, it is economical, can take me and some others from A to B, and that's that. It does not possess any of the sought after "car" qualities beyond that, meaning it does not steer, brake, or performs in any way close to what an Alfa Romeo or even a middle line Japanese car can. Now place me in a car forum, responding to someone else commenting its lack of steering prowress, which is a hard fact, saying "but it is perfect for my needs". No it isn't, and any one with half a brain knows what it can do and what it can't. Or maybe it satisfies my needs, but it would be foolish to say that if it satisfies my needs thatre is no problem with the steering.

Facts are facts. They can be easy or difficult to swallow but the truth is one and only. And if all realise and spew out the drawbacks of each model, meybe the next prodyct in the line is a step forward.

As I said, I did not think you were referring directly to me or to any other individual, for that matter.

I did say that an individual could be 'criticized for purchasing a kb for a particular reason and the kb does not have that functionality ...

Using your car analogy, while your Hundai may not steer as well as you LIKE, if you mostly drive STRAIGHT, then the steering may be 'good for your needs' ... However, if you want to speed through the hills and byways of Europe, you may want to drive something different ...
I know MY analogy is a little absurd, but I am trying to make a point...
I think one big difference in our thinking - yours and mine - is in whether a product fits one's 'needs' or 'desires' ...also whether it is 'perfect' for those needs ... While I may want my technics to sound like a Steinway, I have to accept the fact that it will not, but while it may not fit my DESIRES, it fits my NEEDS, because I am not performing piano concertos in a concert hall ...
Now if I were to try to argue that the kb does sound like a Steinway, then I should rightly be taken to task ...

I do agree with you that there are people, even on THIS forum - imagine that - who will rarely if ever give a negative comment about their particular board ...and you are correct in saying that if we, the users, don't let our dis-satisfactions be known, then twenty years from now people on this board will still have the same complaints ...
Unfortunately, it makes no sense for me to complain about my technics, because I would be yelling at a dead horse ...

And when you think of it, since your Hundai gets you and some others from point A to B - and BACK - then it is serving the same primary purpose as the Alfa Romeo ... it just does it with a different 'style'

t.
PS ... and as I also said, just because someone says "it fits my needs" does not mean the discussion amongst others should be closed ...
t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 02-21-2010).]

Why is it so hard for some people to believe that someone has very little negative things to say about a keyboard?

I had expressed the few changes I would have liked to have seen on my PSR-2000. At the time; of course, I wasn't on this forum, nor did I even have a computer, but I did voice the things I didn't like, and the things I wished it had. Still, overall, it met my needs for playing very well and so my complaints were few, and I found workarounds for them.

As with any keyboard, there will be the next new model to follow, and it could possibly have features that might appeal to me, and, if they are important enough, I'll buy it.

I also can't predict what new features will arrive...most times I know no more than anyone else what's coming up, but I can guess.

So, the PSR-3000 comes out and has features that I really like (Mega-voices, USB storage for starters), and I feel it would improve my overall sound, as well as increase my playing pleasure and convenience. I bought one.

Again, I voiced my complaints, which were few.

A few years later, the S900 arrived on the scene with SA voices, and Audio to USB recording...two features that appealed very much to me; the former important because I do all instrumental, the latter because I don't like using my PC for recording audio...the S900 still met my needs like the earlier two, and was an even bigger pleasure to play.

Again I voiced my complaints, and again they were few.

Along comes the S910. It had new features I again felt were beneficial to improving my sound and performance...again my playing pleasure was increased, again, I voiced my complaints, and once more they were few, and actually less than before.

Not once did I complain about the lighter action on any of the PSR's I owned, because it happens to be the type I like to play...why complain...I really do hope they don't change it, and it has never been on my list of things (especially things ergonomical) that I would like to see improved.

I genuinely prefer it to a semi-weighted action, and to my fingers, it is smooth light, and very reliable, as many users will attest.

If they change it to semi-weighted, I suppose I could get used to it, but it would then be added to my list of complaints. I don't like semi-weighted keys on an arranger. Never did...never liked them on synthesizers either....I consider the arranger as being a single keyboard evolution of the home organ, rather than a synthesizer/workstation.

I don't post a lot of negative things about the instruments I play, not because I work for Yamaha...but, it is because I use a Yamaha instrument, that I have very little to complain about...I love the sound, the operating system, the overall design...they suit me very much, and in that respect, I am a fanboy just like any other.

I also didn't apply to work for Yamaha...I was asked.

I do, however, consider myself very fortunate to work for them, especially when I can get to try the latest instruments at no cost to me, although, it isn't much different than when I worked in a music store. I also enjoy helping people learn the great features on the instrument. It's a job that never feels like work, and it gives me the same enjoyment I get when I gig.

Naturally, I have an NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) which I must honor, but at the same time, I am under no obligation to play and own only Yamaha keyboards, and I am not restricted in voicing things I'd like to see improved, as long as they don't violate the agreement, which would obviously include new features I might know about that would be on the next new instrument.

Trident's car analogy is pretty good.

I have a Honda Accord that I have very little negative to say about...it meets my needs, and in many ways, surpasses them.

Improvements? Other than a lower price, I can't think of any.

Perfect car? Pretty well. Dead reliable, not too big, lots of space for my gear, a terrific handling vehicle (heavy duty suspension...sway bars front and rear), great on gas, plenty of features (power everything) I like that definitely improve my driving experience, and absolutely none that do not.

It is not just practical and able to cover my basic transportation and gigging needs...it is also a joy to drive...I'll take it for a spin for no other reason other than just to enjoy it's terrific driving experience.

Would I want an Odyssey, to me, Honda's equivalent of a Tyros3? Nope, I don't lack for anything in my Accord SE.

My PSR-S910 is the same way...it easily meets my basic needs, and I sit down and play purely for pleasure at every opportunity...so it is hardly just a work tool.

Would I want a Tyros3? Nope again; the S910 does the job, and more, for me, and I don't feel I'm missing anything.

Not sure how much this fits the topic, but it was something I felt I had to say...sorry for the long-winded post.


Ian




[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-21-2010).]

Ian,
Hope you doing well these days...
I still use the Korg PA2XPRO.

But, I am building a house right now...so very little play time these days.

I'm doing almost all the work myself, so had to put off music until we get moved in in May? I hope.

Lee S.

Ian...I too have a Honda Accord and I fully understand why you feel that way about yours ... it is a very comfortable, smooth ride, and it has LOTS of power and it is a 10 year old vehicle ... http://www.edmunds.com/honda/accord/2000/index.html
on a recent drive I had to catch myself a couple of times because without realizing it I was driving over 80 MPH !!! ... of course it didn't help that other cars were still PASSING me ...
BUT, when it comes to a true DRIVING experience, I take the 2003 BMW 325Ci out of the garage ... now THAT is a RIDE ... the BMW to the Honda is kind of like a technics to any other kb JUST KIDDING !!! ...
But I will say SOMETHING negative about the beemer - it doesn't have nearly enough room for my gear - ... unless it's a summer gig and I can drive with the top down ... http://autos.yahoo.com/2003_bmw_3_series_325ci_convertible/

Drive what you love, PLAY what you love ...
t.

Hi Tony,

My Accord is a 2002 Special Edition 4-door...it looks quite a bit like your car. The '02 Special Edition had all the power options including a sunroof, heated mirrors and heated cloth upholstered seats, the latter two very necessary in my area of Canada.

Having front-wheel drive is a benefit in snow as well.

It will hold all my gear...the rear seat folds ahead so the back is all cargo, and there is an opening right through to the trunk.

Bimmers are cool cars, especially the convertibles...would only get a month or two to use it up here on Cape Breton Island...summer is short, essentially two months of poor skiing...

BMW's hold their value well too, as do the Accords...always a good investment.

The first keyboard I saw with the chord inversions in the accompaniment was a KN-something...great sounds at the time as well...one of the first with PCM sampling I believe.

Yamaha and Roland were far behind at the time...they finally caught up, but Technics was still a premier arranger right to the end.

Too bad they stopped making them...very good quality instruments, they were.

Ian