chas ... thnx for the kind words ... I take that as quite a compliment ... ...
For several years I have heard people on this forum complain that their kb didn't have one feature or another, and I would think - hmmm, my kn6000 has that - ... I honestly feel technics was pretty far ahead of the curve with their arranger kbs ...Now I'm not saying that my kb has EVERY feature I would ever want, but it certainly has pretty much what I need (I would REALLY like midi 'markers' ), and the styles are great for what I do - Country Clubs, restaurants, some senior club stuff -
And you are right, I do not have a desire to change ... the kb suits me, and since the majority of what I have on the internal hard drive is proprietary to technics, I would HATE to start over ...
t.
PS: ... play what you like and make BEAUTIFUL MUSIC ...
t.

I am always hoping an ADULT conversation might break out about arrangers... I'm always trying to point out that these things are MACHINES, not family. I am as critical about aspects of my G70 as I am about things like the PSR's keybed, the Korg's paltry two fills (and a B/F), the Audya's lack of complete chord vocabulary for audio loops, the MS's lack of content and complexity... etc., etc., etc.. (imagine all this in a Yul Brynner accent )

These are all faults that are commented on consistently. Can you play on a PSR and get used to it? Of course... but does that negate the 'general' opinion? IMO, no it doesn't. Can you get by without six or seven fills? Yes, you can. But would you WANT to? Could the G70 give you a hernia? If you lift it wrong, sure!

The whole POINT of discussing these things should NOT be a desire to denigrate others' choice of tool for making music, but to get a frank and honest discussion about improving the breed. And the only way that happens is if owners and potential owners alike are candid about things that COULD be improved in their choice of arranger. The manufacturers DO come here. They DO pay attention. But while they see actual OWNERS of their products conduct a campaign of denial of flaws, and laud them as the best thing since sliced bread, where is the knowledge that things could change for the better going to come from..?

Just like yourselves, it is all too easy to confuse fanboy gushing for actual FACTS...

Let's take Ian's keybed, as an example. Ian likes it, has gotten used to it, but i GUARANTEE that if they replaced it with the keybed that is on a MoXS6, he would love it just as much (and if it had started out with as good a keybed, Ian would be dismissing other keyboards with as flimsy a keybed as vehemently as most do here) and start to gush as enthusiastically about it as he does with what he has. If Korg suddenly added another four fills or more, who here would actually COMPLAIN? If the MS came out with a style and sound set that rivaled the best of YK&R, would anyone mind? If Audya added sus4 chords, augs and dims, 7#9's, etc., would their owners bitch about it?

Not on your life!

But TALK about the issues now, before those things happen, and you would think so...

We either step up to the plate, and start to discuss these things as if it IS possible to improve them, or we go back to this playground mentality, and potentially lose the changes for our own arrangers that we (secretly) WOULD like to see.

Me... well, I'd LOVE 10 lbs. shaved off my G70! I'd LOVE some multipads, a Break/Fill (or three!), some SA sounds and a guitar mode that works with the style, I'd love a lyric display in style mode (E series has that), I'd love renamable ROM style presets (you can change the ROM styles, but you can't rename them ), I'd love a USB stick port (only got 'to computer'), and I'D LIKE MY BLOODY CHORD SEQUENCER BACK....

Anyone that has ever surfed the Roland-arranger forum, particularly the Suggest New Features forum knows I am one of the BIGGEST critics of the arranger. There is SO much that could be improved... And, if you were honest with yourselves and us here, if you have a brain in your head, you could probably come here with a list nearly as long of things YOU would like improved and changed. But instead, many of you grasp your pens (figuratively) and leap to the defense of your chosen tool. And that isn't going to help ANYTHING...

Yes, for all its' flaws, whatever we have chosen is the best for us that could be gotten, right now. But that does NOT mean it couldn't be improved, that flaws we have got used to couldn't be improved, and good ideas from other lines ought NOT to be added to our own OS's...

But that is NEVER going to happen while you all are so publicly uncritical of your choice. Man up, and start to TALK about it. It's the only way things are going to change...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-19-2010).]

They where miles ahead of anything else, quallity and vision... Only GEM with their WX2 got slightly ahead on inovation for a year or so, but for the rest, it was Technics way ahead of the rest...

I dare bet my last few cents that when technics would have not been removed from the market todays keyboards would be more technically advanced.

Nope...wrong guy and wrong example...you should not assume what I would, or would not like, or what my reaction would be, Diki...that's another thing that makes things go south on this forum.

For this forum to run more smoothly, it will require a bit more of your attention to where and when you wander over the line...of course that applies to all of us, I suppose.

Speaking for me, or someone else, and/or assuming how they will react in a hypothetical situation is hardly considered netiquette in my books.

If you must do it, pick someone else please.

Thank you.

Ian

The point I was trying to make, Ian, is that IN GENERAL, most here consider the PSR series' keybed to be sub par, particularly for such an expensive keyboard. There isn't a single other keyboard in the same price range with as flimsy a keybed, neither WS, not arranger, nor synth.

Perhaps I DID make a projection, but you have to admit that, as uncritical as you are to whatever Yamaha you are using, and as little comment that you make whenever things change (which they do every model change), it is hard to accept that, IF Yamaha had included the same keybed that grace their WS lines, you wouldn't be as enthusiastic as you are now. Let's face it, what was the LAST thing you criticized a PSR for? Bueller? Bueller...? Bueller..... . . . ?

It would be a LOT easier to accept your uncritical acceptance of the keybed, if you were willing to acknowledge any other shortcomings of the PSR, but when we all see such biased reportage from you (you never admit ANY flaw, you never wish for features from other arrangers to be added to the PSR, you never have much of a wishlist of things you'd like added), it is kind of hard to believe that, underneath the veneer of partisanship, there doesn't at least lurk a TINY desire for something to change.

In all fairness, as invested in Yamaha's success as you seem to be, it is difficult for us to think that, should Yamaha decide that they are going to replace the keybed with one more in tune with its' price range, that you would criticize THAT decision, either... The PSR3k was perfect, too, if I recall. So, is the better display annoying you? No, it isn't. And IF they added a better keybed, it is hard to believe that you would, all of a sudden, turn into a Yamaha critic for that decision, either.

We aren't talking about going from the PSR to an 88 wood, or even the heavier G70 action. Just the action that Yamaha think SHOULD be on its' $1800 WS's. I've never heard you criticize THOSE for NOT having the PSR's keybed...

But, your response gets to the point of my original post. IF we all were more willing to discuss flaws, of ANY kind, with each other, it would be a lot easier to accept things like your preference for the keybed, under the knowledge that you WERE willing to talk about things that you DO want changed. But when one is SO uncritical about an entire product, it is hard to separate out the issues that you DO like from those you might not, but refuse to discuss.

And, I'm sorry, but I still find it hard to accept that, if Yamaha put an FSX keybed into a PSR, you would EVER complain about it. I truly believe that you would do what you have already done... gotten used to it, uncomplainingly. You 'got used' to the new display, didn't you?

Well,
If you don't sing...the arranger choice is very important. Much more so that if you do sing as a major part of your performance.

After all if the audience isn't listening to you sing...then that darn sax (or whatever) better be good!

That's why I am so critical of the realism and quality of the instruments on my boards.

And...all the brands have some better than other sounds.

In this day of technology, quite honestly, with the low cost of memory (eletronics in general) ALL the arranger mfg's need to do a lot better on sound quality (especially solo voices).

Example given: The sound of the voice should not drastically change from note to note....I mean vibrato speed/depth, timbre, loudness, anyting tha will disturb the prformance in any way.

Too many recycled old samples and poor programming. IMHO. On all brands.

Lee S.

So, don't accept it...I don't care, my friend. That's your problem, not mine.

I have stated many times, in many posts, that I prefer the PSR's keyboard to the Tyros' FSX...if you paid attention to what I wrote, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

As far as I'm concerned it stops here...just work a little harder on being polite, and please don't assume, or predict what my feelings about something would be...if you need to know, all you had to do was ask, not make stuff up.

That's poor manners, in my book.

I'm not the first one you've done this to, but it would be best for both of us, if you exclude me from your assumptions from now on.

I don't do it to you, so I don't think it is too much to ask for the same in return.

Ian

But, while the low cost of memory ought to make what you said a thing of the past, it doesn't address the high cost of recording and preparing those samples... Keyboard prices keep falling, but we want MORE in them all the time!

If you look at the cost of some of the VERY high quality sax soundsets for soft samplers, with every note sampled multiple times, loads of performance key triggered notes, exceptional smoothness across a wide range, you are talking some hefty money. Now extrapolate that to EVERY other sound in the entire soundset, and you end up with an arranger no-one could afford.

To be honest, I am amazed that things are so GOOD, not so bad, at the prices we tend to pay.

Ian, I don't know how I COULD express my opinion in a more polite manner. The fact that you don't agree with it doesn't stem from the WAY I said it. You and I both know that there are others on this forum that are incapable of expressing something without insult and taunt, but no matter what we disagree on, we both refuse to get nasty and personal about it. Reasonable men can agree to disagree reasonably.

Yes, I know you have stated you prefer the PSR keybed, many times. I DO remember what you wrote. But you have failed to even MENTION the crux of my post, which is that, without any other critical mention of a Yamaha feature, how is one to separate out the TRUE likes from the uncritical acceptance? It's BALANCE that I wish we had. You know that I am as willing to post my opinions about Roland's poor features as I am its' strong points, and perhaps that lends credence to what I say when I DO gush a bit.

But I don't feel insulted when someone suggests that I MIGHT like my G70 a bit lighter, or with a better guitar system, or even a better piano sound. I may not agree with that (especially the latter) but at least, unless it is presented in a vicious, personal way, I don't feel insulted. I am not accusing you of being Communist (despite most Americans equating social democratism as the same thing!), or a pedophile or even a curling fan... Nor am I getting insulted that you think I'm insulting you (which I'm not ).

I'm just posting about my thoughts... And you and I BOTH know that, if I DID want to insult you, there wouldn't be any question about it! I respect you too much for that, and I hope that you can revisit how you feel about my post with a more detached viewpoint. It's a disagreement, NOT an insult, and I hope that you can see the difference. I simply can't figure out how to make my point any politer... all the reference to the keybed is just an EXAMPLE of how things get out of hand when we don't openly discuss everything. I'm sorry if you saw it differently. It wasn't intended that way. Honestly...



Thing is, Ian, if they DID replace it with an FSX keybed, WOULD you then complain? That is what I have trouble believing, not that you prefer the action...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-19-2010).]

Interesting thread...

I have to say that I think Diki is presenting his case in a very respectful fashion. Perhaps he didn't use the best example when he involved Ian, but I didn't read anything insulting.

Its a conversation Diki wants on this, I think...

I'm a Yamaha fan, a big one...but I'll admit there are things about it I don't care for. But in the end, its the sound I prefer over other arrangers, I'm comfortable with it and have zero plans to change brands anytime soon. Do I have the best arranger? I don't know, but for me, I'm very pleased...my audiences are very pleased and that pretty much is that.

I'm not suggesting that if I sat down with a Roland or a Korg or whatever for a few weeks I might not really develop an appreciation for those brands. I may very well like them more than the Tyros line. It'd be silly to rule that out if I haven't tried it. But its not required, so...we can kind of what if this to death...

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Bill in Dayton