Are You aware of the importance of this change ...
In the long run, this opens up for creative articulation of voices in styles. And that could make the T4 a future proof keyboard for many years to come …
Yes , the T4 can use SA/SA2 voices in styles! Think about the implications of that for a moment …

STYLE CREATION
Tyros4 – Reference Manual, page 42
"Recordable Voices NOTE
• RHY1 channel: Any except your original Organ Flutes Voices are recordable.
• RHY2 channel: Only drum/SFX kits are recordable.
• BASS–PHR2 channels: Any except your original Organ Flutes and drum/
SFX kits Voices are recordable."

Tyros3 – Reference Manual, page 37
"Recordable Voices NOTE
• RHY1 channel: Any except your original Organ Flute, SA and SA2 Voices
are recordable.
• RHY2 channel: Only drum/SFX kits are recordable.
• BASS–PHR2 channels: Any except your original Organ Flute, drum/SFX
kits, SA and SA2 Voices are recordable."

But, why is this not also allowed for multipads? It makes no sense logically or technically. Think of all the pretty things one could create for general use. What a potential palette of wonderful articulated musical phrases . I don´t think it´s likely that this is due to limitations of the processor speed. But, if it´s on the edge processor wise then let the player choose to optimize (simplify) the simultaneous style, with the goal to reduce the processor load. So, the use of SA/SA2 in multipads should be the choice of the player and not a “locked” feature …

MULTIPAD CREATION
Tyros4 – Reference Manual, page 78
"The SA, SA2 and Organ Flutes Voices
cannot be recorded. If one of these
Voices is set for RIGHT1 part, it will be
replaced with a Piano Voice."

CONCLUSION
Many, many thanks Yamaha, for the possibility to use SA/SA2 in styles!
Hopefully, many loyal Yamaha keyboard players shouldn´t have to wait for the Tyros5 to see that feature “unlocked”.
So, Yamaha, could you please - if it´s technically possible and for a reasonable fee - through a (downloadable) software update unlock the restriction of using SA/SA2 in multipads.


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PSR900, Sierra D10 (keyless) Pedal Steel Guitar ...

[This message has been edited by Joysound (edited 09-18-2010).]

[This message has been edited by Joysound (edited 09-19-2010).]

OF COURSE Yamaha could have EASILY allowed SA sounds in multipads. They could probably just as easily allowed Organ Flute voices in a style or multipads, too, especially if you weren't using the engine for keyboard sounds (I know there is probably a limitation to how many Parts this engine can play, but if you aren't using it for keyboard sounds, it's available...)

But how are they going to get you to sell your T4 and buy a T5 (and then the T6, T7... T1000) if they do?

Perhaps you are right Diki...maybe that's how these successful companies stay in business.

Of course, it's easy to assume anythings "easy" when you have no real knowledge of the Tyros 4's operating system.

We could assume that Roland could have made the G-70's guitar mode more effective, but, I guess they are waiting to put it in the G-70's successor.

We could also assume that Korg could have easily used Karma in the PA2XPro, and extended the usefulness of their guitar mode, but, they are probably waiting to put these things in the PA3XPro...

They have to make people buy G-80's (and then the G-90's and 100's)) and PA3X, and PA4XPros ad infinitum, don't they?

Seems more common practice than you think, eh?

Ian

This seems like a really dumb topic. I don't think that people buy an arranger keyboard so that they can record organs on a drum track.

Big deal that you cannot record multipads using SA2 voices. There are so many multipads already on the keyboard For the few who do want to create their own multipads, there are so many other voices to record multipads with.

It's a dumb topic, because who's going to not buy a keyboard because of this stuff?

This is really nitpicky stuff.

Beakybird

Can you use SA and SA2 voice in RH1, RH2 and RH3? or LH for that matter?
Yeah...I could look in the manual...but looks like others have studied it already :-)

Lee S.

It's not about Organ Flutes on a rhythm channel. You can't have the Organ Flutes on ANY style channel (if I'm reading this right).

Ian, thing is, I'm not playing a G70 After I bought it, Roland added the Guitar Mode (Yamaha would have brought out another Tyros to do this). Then they added per Part EQ (Yamaha would have brought out yet ANOTHER Tyros to add this). Then they added all KINDS of things to it...

So, I am really playing that G90 you talk about. For free... Enjoy your next incremental update. I have certainly enjoyed all of mine. But, then again, that's easier when you don't have to pay through the nose for them

Maybe Roland should have done like Yamaha and then they would be better able to stay in the TOTL arranger business. Yamaha, and by extention Iana, have realised that doing what is good for the consumer is not always good for the business.

------------------
I have shortened my ID to TTG

Roland didn't leave the field of play because they brought out updates instead of new models. Ian knows this full well, he just likes to try to get a rise out of me (beats tapping trees for maple syrup, I guess!).

Roland shot themselves in the foot marketing the G70 (and the previous V/VA series hadn't exactly set the world on fire, as different to the G1000 as they were), and were already a distant third to Korg and Yamaha by this time. Plus, Roland had never significantly updated PREVIOUS arrangers (as much as the V/VA series needed one!). So, scratch that as another misguided attempt by Ian to deflect criticism of Yamaha...

Ian also LOVES to ignore the fact that Korg are still robust, still selling well (comparatively) and still making great arrangers, despite the fact that they added, in effect, SA capabilities in a free update, Ketron are still doing OK, despite updating the Audya VERY deeply, and both of these companies have absolutely no problem making and selling arrangers in both 61 and 76 sizes. But all you hear is 'Roland this, Roland that'... Life would be SO much easier if it weren't for reality, eh, Ian?

It appears Roland made three mistakes...

1. Bringing out updates instead of new models.

2. Poor marketing of the G-70.

3. No markedly new technology to bring to the table.

Pour some maple syrup on those facts, son, and they may be easier to chew on.

Ian

Here we go again!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by travlin'easy:
[b]Here we go again!


Gary ....lol.....your excactly right!






[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-19-2010).]

Good one Gary.

If they all had any freeking brains they would test this stuff! Fix all bugs..sound issues etc. before they ship them, and charge for updates that add features sounds or styles.

A keyboard should be a 5 year investment...or more. not this 1-2 year crap.

It's a racket and we play right along don't we?

Lee S

Not really,.... when your a pro working player making 100's of times OVER what you invested initially and make money every day with that Unit....
I'd say thats a pretty good deal at any price...



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-19-2010).]

It seems that we will never learn the full potential of our instruments, and we are so brainwashed to buy the new and out with the old that it is like a drug addict trying to get a new dose. Hmmmm, I wonder who buys the old stuff? people looking to get a bargain? people who don't care about technology? stupid people? I wonder. What happened to the economic crisis? who can afford a 5000 dollar keyboard with such little wages that we already get?

Don't be so naive to think people dont have money, stop by your nearest Casino and see that they are Packed with people throwing money into the gaming industry 24/7.. and that's only one example, try broadway shows at $200.00 a tcket, Sports events, Concert enues, vactioners, & the list goes on and on...no money? bahahahahahahah........
many just put up the poverty facade as they laugh all the way to the bank meanwhile enjoying life....and btw, buying used is a good thing sometimes also...

PS, many of the ings that make me happy in life are FREE..

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-19-2010).]

I buy two new keyboards every two to three years, and it only costs me around $0.50 a gig. Big deal if you lose a little money upgrading. It's a hobby.

Beakybird

Donny,
Beakybird,
Your the exception for sure...what % of arranger buyers do you think GIG out for big $$ like your talking about...Very small.
Hundreds of times the money you spend for keyboards...??? At 200 times that's $800,000 eery two years...are a lot of you guys making that kind of Money playing out with an arranger??

I would bet you only 5% of arranger buyers are in the giging PRO category...remember SZ is not representative of all those buyers. All the kids, Older folks that used to have organs...guys like me playing for fun and famaily etc.

Lee S.

Whoa, there's some exaggeration here. If you kept your T3 in pristine condition and throw in some styles and goodies with the sale, you're only going to lose approximately $750, maybe $1000 tops on the sale.

Yamaha has been coming out with keyboards usually every three years. So you're talking about $333 a year tops to play the latest model.

Beakybird

Completely agree with #2 and #3, but pray tell me, oh marketing guru, why Roland should have brought out ANOTHER G model when the G70 was already a disaster for reason's 2 & 3? The updates they DID add didn't address #3, and #2 would have made sales of any new model just as poor...

The incremental upgrade path only makes sense if what you are selling NOW is already very popular. But an incremental upgrade to something already long in the tooth and marketed so poorly... it is unlikely any more would have seen and heard and played it as did the G70 (and that wasn't many!)

Please don't tell me you HONESTLY think that Roland would have been better off bringing out a G80 with the OSv3 features on it, rather than upgrading the G70! I know I certainly wouldn't have bought it, and I doubt anyone else would have, either. I guess it's a good job none of these arranger manufacturers listens to YOU for advice!

Good and compact conclusion from Diki: “… But how are they going to get you to sell your T4 and buy a T5 (and then the T6, T7... T1000) if they do?”

My goal for this thread was …

1. To inform many keyboard buyers that SA/SA2 voices in styles (T4) is a significant step forward. That alone will make a T4 “more” “future proof”. With also the new vocal voices and that capability (of articulation in styles) the musical limits are now up to you, the player. On T2 and T3 that capability is “locked” and therefore not as much “future proof”. A keyboard should newer restrict or limit a player. Now I also see that the added musical palette (vocal voices) on T4 is making the palette of voices whole and complete. Vocal voices are now here to stay. That´s also “future proof”. Now the music is only limited by you, the player and not by a stupid software lock …

2. Each and every player has to be informed and aware to make good decisions. For me I took a chance 2008 to skip T3 (because I first wanted to be informed about the approaching release of Ketron Audya). One month ago my plan was to go for an Audya5 when info came about the “early” release of T4. So, to get “the most of two worlds”, should one go for a T4 now and one of the Audya´s later? Or perhaps an Audya now and a T5/T6 later? Personally, it´s very likely it´s going to be a T4 this year and skipping T5. The Tyros line with the T4 has now reached a good enough level of saturated musical potential or in other words more “future proof”. What could a future T5 have to make you depart from a T4? Now is the time to concentrate on developing playing skills instead of exchanging (costly) hardware every second or third year.

3. As for the question about SA/SA2 in multipads it would sure be nice but not as important as it is for styles . My point is that to inspire many to forward feedback to Yamaha that we don´t like stupid restricting software locks. Let the power free of the keyboards hardware and software. Let instead the player be the limiting factor. It should cost Yamaha next to nothing to make away with the lock. Better for everyone in the broad longer perspective but perhaps not as good for the profit in the shorter perspective. Keyboard makers care about goodwill, so let us take our “pitch forks” and collectively forward the message to Yamaha and other keyboard makers to hopefully help and inspire them to make better decisions. (“Do to others what you want them to do to you”. If I had the power to make decisions for the Yamaha Keyboard group I would have implemented the policy of never restricting actual existing hardware by unnecessary software locks …)

4. Many businesses nowadays release software updates in the form of free bug fixes and optional upgrades. I think Yamaha could do better in that department. I think I´ll stay positive in my expectation that Yamaha in some time will release optional software updates that unlock the SA/SA2 voices for multitabs on T4.

5. Personal view: I think the only missing voice to add to the existing T4 voice palette would be the unique sound of the resonator guitar also called dobro. A SA2 Jerry Douglas Dobro would be great and so useful in many musical genres. Also perfectly suited for multipad phrases. Of course, for multipads upgraded to SA2 (through “YOSUS”, the Yamaha Optional Software Upgrade Service ). See also http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=26871.0


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PSR900, Sierra D10 (keyless) Pedal Steel Guitar ...

[This message has been edited by Joysound (edited 09-20-2010).]

They could have easily made a 61-note version of the G-70...no speakers, much lighter weight, better screen, and do the fixes on the rest of the bugs(or issues) that were still in the G-70 even after Ver.3.

It would be priced between the PSR-S-series and the Tyros.

They could have added an arp, analog sliders for real-time filter control...and whatever else was new in their pro workstations or pianos...SuperNatural, for instance.

That would be a good start.

And, as you have found out much to your own chagrin...advice is like Castor oil...easy to give, but hard to take.

Welcome to the real world.

Ian

You mean like all the features from the Motif line that Yamaha added to their arrangers?

Why expect Roland to have done something that Almighty Yamaha don't think is a good idea?

And they DID make a lightweight 61 with speakers, based on the G70. It was called the E50. Forget that, did you?

If I were you, I'd take a little LESS of that caster oil you are drinking (or are you smoking it? )

Hardly...the E-80 was closer to the G-70.

And, I wrote without speakers.

You see, the instrument I described would be in a marketing/price slot that no one is really addressing...yet.

Castor oil is useful for cleansing debris out of the eyes...but it won't cure your short-sightedness or tunnel vision.

For that you'll need a positive outlook on life, something with which you are obviously not familiar.

Ian

If Yamaha are not addressing it, then by your own stated logic, it doesn't NEED addressing. I can hardly believe my eyes to see you admit FINALLY that it MIGHT be possible that Yamaha are not making something that there is a legitimate need for. Ah, but I forgot. This is something that YOU see a need for, which makes it important...

As opposed to something many of the rest of us consider important. Which you DON'T.

Hubris... it's not just for breakfast any more!

I'm enjoying this V8....ice cold....great way to wake up.