 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
#352389 - 10/09/12 12:33 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: Scott Langholff]
|
Senior Member
Registered: 06/09/02
Posts: 3163
Loc: Pensacola, Florida, USA
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#352475 - 10/10/12 12:39 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: Beakybird]
|
Senior Member
Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
|
This is so depressing... here is Yamaha, purveyors of the most anemic drums available in any arranger, actually admitting that they KNOW how to get great drum sounds!
But rather than simply going out, and recording great drum KITS using all the techniques, and allowing ALL of our styles to benefit from their apparent epiphany, noooooo....!
Only 25 styles in the entire arranger are going to sound this good.
Facepalm.... Hold on ... The T4 already has realistic drums. The Real Drum and Real Brush kits on the T4 sound great. When Apple comes out with an iPad with a higher resolution screen it is not a statement that their previous screen sucked. Similarly, Yamaha has already come out with great drum samples on their T4, just because they're introducing a new technology (probably partly to stop pirating of styles) doesn't mean that the older technology is substandard. Give it to them Beaky, they all know that Yamaha spend the most time and money getting it right, they just don't like admit it, you ain't going to win with some folk, so why bother, I like what I hear and see and I ain't gone daft,deaf or blind yet, so there!!!     Tony
_________________________
Tyros 4/Pair SR 350/ PC with a i8 intel chip, XENYX 802, Ford Focus 2 litre/Tascam DR07/Brother printer/Designjet 500/ our Doris/5 Grandchildren/ white boxers short Kymart shipped over and Typhoo Tea Earl Grey
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#352476 - 10/10/12 01:23 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: Machetero]
|
Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14301
Loc: NW Florida
|
Beaky.... 2 kits out of an entire TOTL arranger? That's your justification?
The washed out drums have been the #1 complaint about the Yamaha 'sound' for years. Probably the main reason I won't go near them... But Yamaha, instead of 'trickling' these newer MIDI kits down to the PSR (like so many other Tyros features that appear after a year or so in the PSR series) and starting to address the issue, decide to go with a proprietary, closed to user content audio system that has only 5% of the styles even used. Not to mention that any new audio styles you purchase from Yamaha won't load up without a re-boot, rendering them utterly impractical.
And, let's face it. Even for the TOTL arranger, only 2 kits out of how many? 44 drum kits..? That's barely scratching the surface of the issue.
And I'm sorry, but Tony... if you think this is Yamaha 'getting it right', you have explained a lot about your priorities. This is Yamaha completely dodging the issue, and using an utterly impractical, half-baked idea to cover a glaring need, when an existing T4 solution already exists (albeit it in its infancy). Yikes! You actually HAD an Audya, didn't you! Same technology, basically, but nearly ALL the styles had audio drums, and this pathetic excuse for a feature is floating your boat on a Yamaha while you continue to rag on the Audya..? You haven't made the connection?
Step back a bit from your current choice of arranger, and try to be a bit objective! If the Tyros had gone this route, left you with gutless drums and then only 25 styles with a good tight punchy sound and no practical way to add to them, you would be up in arms about it!
This is Yamaha wasting their AND your money... I am honestly hard pressed to think of anything other than the MS that promised so much and delivered so little.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#352489 - 10/10/12 06:12 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: Beakybird]
|
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
|
Hold on ... The T4 already has realistic drums. The Real Drum and Real Brush kits on the T4 sound great.
...Yamaha has already come out with great drum samples on their T4, just because they're introducing a new technology (probably partly to stop pirating of styles) doesn't mean that the older technology is substandard.
The Tyros4's new kits are exceptionally "realistic"...and, as said above in Al's post, you can also add new drum samples via flash memory (I have the 1 gig) and put together your own custom kits. You are correct about the new technology partly stopping the pirating of styles (which some SZ members feel should be being done--yet they pirate indiscriminately themselves <grin>) as, unlike the many available Yamaha Premium Styles, for instance, the Audio Styles cannot be shared. As Al has alluded to above, the use of Audio Drums, is to capture more "feel", which can be difficult on any arranger using MIDI Drums, although, I must say manufacturers are getting more adept at it, using clever programming tricks. Also another value of Audio Drum Styles is in when a rhythm requires multiple, and sometimes simultaneous, versions of a particular percussion instrument, like the several snare drums in a Marching Band style, or multiple congo/bongo drums in a Latin Style. From the way they were showed to those of us lucky to be at the very first presentation, that's how it was explained to us...the Audio Drum styles aren't intended to replace MIDI drums, because, for one thing, the latter can be edited much easier and extensively, where the audio can not. If the new midi kits in the S950 are as good, or even 8/10th as good as the new kits in the Tyros4 (and, at first listen, they appear to be), then they will prove totally worthwhile. At the demo, I didn't find the "quality" change from Audio Drums to Midi Drums very dramatic...it was subtle, and, again, it affects the "feel" more than actual sonic quality. I will know more once I get a demo S950, and I can directly compare it to my own Tyros4. I suspect the Tyros5, and the soon to appear, CVP-6** series, will have significantly more Audio Drum Styles, but, will also continue to support the still extremely powerful midi drums. More "in your faceness", can easily be established, again, as Al has stated above), with simple EQ'ing, and, much of the criticism leveled at Yamaha's allegedly less "aggressive" midi drums, is mostly by those who have never tried using the EQ or Filter, or, more than likely, have never spent any real time with Yamaha's latest arrangers. Speaking from personal experience, Yamaha's Audio drums are very well done...for example, in the S950's fantastic 60's Super Group Audio Drum style, the same microphones, Ringo's actual drum kit, and the very same studio and desk (and effects) were used to record the patterns, so it is extremely realistic. Thjey were even picky enough to use the same type drum sticks. Yamaha's Martin Harris was heavily involved in producing the Audio Drum recordings. We watched a very interesting video of how each type of Audio Drum Style was developed and recorded. It is nice to see criticism, as some is legit, and it will certainly encourage Yamaha to respond to any really useful suggestions. We clinicians and demonstrators are urged to submit our own, and, of course, public, suggestions and criticisms...it is partly what has been making the company as successful as it has been these many years. Ian BTW, the S950, judging from initial interest ( I got hundreds of emails), looks to be potentially even more successful than the S910, which sold in higher numbers than nearly any other Yamaha MOTL arranger. I think (and hope) they are on the right path.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#352493 - 10/10/12 06:38 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: mirza]
|
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
|
If they gave us good drum samples(bfd2,superior drums...) we wouldn't need these audio styles.We are just being lab rats for Yamaha.But,again it's not their fault. Actually, Audio Drum Styles have many distinct advantages over MIDI drums...it is not just sound quality, but, as I explained above (in only one instance), with Audio Drums multiple versions (almost unlimited) of snares, bass drums, toms, cymbals, can be used in the rhythm, something not possible with the MIDI Drums on any manufacturer's arrangers. The "feel" of the drum patterns can be more natural and realistic, since it is an actual drummer's (or, in some cases, drummers) performance being recorded. Personally, I don't feel we will see midi drums being phased out, or replaced by Audio Drums...and, if Yamaha's drum kits don't float your boat (and perhaps other features don't appeal, either), it is easy enough (and encouraged) for the player to buy from a manufacturer that more adequately satisfies his/her wants and needs. These days, it is fortunate we have a choice between brands of arrangers. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#352500 - 10/10/12 06:48 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: Diki]
|
Senior Member
Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 3944
|
Beaky.... 2 kits out of an entire TOTL arranger? That's your justification?
The washed out drums have been the #1 complaint about the Yamaha 'sound' for years. Probably the main reason I won't go near them... But Yamaha, instead of 'trickling' these newer MIDI kits down to the PSR (like so many other Tyros features that appear after a year or so in the PSR series) and starting to address the issue, decide to go with a proprietary, closed to user content audio system that has only 5% of the styles even used. Not to mention that any new audio styles you purchase from Yamaha won't load up without a re-boot, rendering them utterly impractical.
And, let's face it. Even for the TOTL arranger, only 2 kits out of how many? 44 drum kits..? That's barely scratching the surface of the issue.
And I'm sorry, but Tony... if you think this is Yamaha 'getting it right', you have explained a lot about your priorities. This is Yamaha completely dodging the issue, and using an utterly impractical, half-baked idea to cover a glaring need, when an existing T4 solution already exists (albeit it in its infancy). Yikes! You actually HAD an Audya, didn't you! Same technology, basically, but nearly ALL the styles had audio drums, and this pathetic excuse for a feature is floating your boat on a Yamaha while you continue to rag on the Audya..? You haven't made the connection?
Step back a bit from your current choice of arranger, and try to be a bit objective! If the Tyros had gone this route, left you with gutless drums and then only 25 styles with a good tight punchy sound and no practical way to add to them, you would be up in arms about it!
This is Yamaha wasting their AND your money... I am honestly hard pressed to think of anything other than the MS that promised so much and delivered so little. Diki, It worked I reeled you in, that's all I wanted, predicable as ever, you even going back to the old Audya thing, your like a number 98 bus, smack on time.  I don't give a toss about any KB, just like winding you up.  it appears to work. BTW Diki I never read anything past line ten on SZ, I just spotted my name and Audya that drew my eye down a little further.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#352512 - 10/10/12 09:06 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: Machetero]
|
Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5401
Loc: English Riviera, UK
|
Hi Ian
Can you explain what you mean by multiple drums, as a drum kit will always only have a limited number of instruments, (The drummer wouldn’t have long enough arms to be able to play them otherwise), and if it’s a marching band, you just load in say 10 of the same snares, assign them the same note and adjust the panorama settings to spread them out.
Confused
Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#352513 - 10/10/12 09:29 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: Machetero]
|
Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
|
Bill, Each Midi kit normally has a limited number of snares (regular, gated, piccolo etc.), toms, cymbals etc. In an Audio style many different snares, for example, can be played either at the same time, or even overdubbed to provide several variations of the same snare. Or, similar snares each might be struck at a different point on the drum head, providing many varied tones. You can also have a drummer (with or without long arms  ) and a percussionist, or, as in some of the more exotic audio styles, several drummers/percussionists, playing at the same time. Usually, with MIDI drums the "feel" is not going to be as realistic as with a drummer and a percussionist actually playing and recording different beats, fills and passages. Because Yamaha uses the very expressive Mega Voices (and now, SA/SA2) for the style's bass and guitars (and other instruments), it was deemed only necessary to use Audio only for the drums/percussion tracks...tracks that would benefit from Audio instead of Midi. I think they have made the right decision. I hope this helps...it's the best I can do. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#352575 - 10/11/12 07:02 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: Machetero]
|
Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14301
Loc: NW Florida
|
Al.... the PSR certainly doesn't allow you to put a sampled drumkit in.
Secondly, creating a good, detailed kit from scratch on the T4 is a herculean task, as there is NO multi-sample import (like Akai, etc.) which closes you off from the plethora of exquisitely sampled drum kits out there. And if you think that individually importing all 4+ vel layers of each drum in a kit of perhaps 60+ sounds (and creating the exclusive cutoffs for hi-hats, etc) by using individual .wav's is anything that most of us want to deal with, you are probably mistaken. Can't say I have EVER heard a user demo here from anyone with a T4 that uses a custom kit...
What I don't get is how you can listen to a MoXF etc., hear wonderful punchy drum KITS, and say that a) the T4 comes anywhere CLOSE, and b) that Yamaha, rather than put kits like this in a Tyros and PSR, so ALL the styles can sound this good, decide to go the closed route of putting audio styles in (and a paltry 5% of the ROM styles, at that) and leaving you high and dry for the other 1000+ styles you may have.
The answer to fantastic sounding styles is NOT audio drums. It is fantastic sounding KITS. And this is something that their WS dept. knows full well.
Look, both Roland and Korg have great multi-velocity kits, with the drums sampled with a bit of studio 'ambiance' sampled in (and the Korg even allows you to vary the 'room mike' level) and combined with great MIDI drumkit playing, can give you a drum sound VERY close to audio, with NONE of audio's considerable drawbacks (no editing, no reverb control, no balance control, no muting kit and leaving percussion only or vice versa, etc.). Take this one step even further, and go listen to audio demos of BFD2 or EZ Drummer, etc, who's drumkits are much larger (but still primarily in GS layout) and I defy you to tell me they are not live playing!
Think about this for a minute... think of the R&D Yamaha must have put in to make these audio drums work. Think about how vari-speed software must have been developed. Think about the time and money spent on sampling these 25 grooves. Think about the extra FLASH RAM added to the PSR to store them, and load (painfully slowly) others in.
THEN.... think how easier it would have been to simply add some more ROM, and add in maybe 5 or so more drum KITS, sampled with multi-velocity, using the same drums, rooms and mikes as these grooves. Sampled with all the studio EQ, comps, and room mikes...
Wouldn't that have been WAY easier to do, and wouldn't that be incredibly more useful? ALL your styles could now be played through them, not the mere 25 that Yamaha meagerly dole out. Not to mention, ZERO extra technology. Just maybe a GB or so more ROM. Chicken feed!
Let me also point out that, at least on Roland's, and I assume on most else, all the note numbers outside the basic GM/GS layout are chock full of other kicks, snares, cymbals, percussion, you name it. There's no impediment to a style having a variety of snares, etc, either as alternates or layered.
I'm sorry, but I think some of you have drunk the Kool-Aid! This was a feature that, when only on Ketron's, no-one particularly cared about. But now that mighty Yamaha come out with a terribly limited, half baked version of it, all of a sudden it's the best thing since sliced bread! You guys amaze me at times!
I declare, were Yamaha to add a Chord Sequencer, watch all the people who didn't give a rats for it on Roland's or Korg's suddenly pronounce it indispensable now Yamaha have one!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#352641 - 10/12/12 04:37 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: Diki]
|
Member
Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 570
Loc: Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
|
Al.... the PSR certainly doesn't allow you to put a sampled drumkit in.
Secondly, creating a good, detailed kit from scratch on the T4 is a herculean task, as there is NO multi-sample import (like Akai, etc.) which closes you off from the plethora of exquisitely sampled drum kits out there. And if you think that individually importing all 4+ vel layers of each drum in a kit of perhaps 60+ sounds (and creating the exclusive cutoffs for hi-hats, etc) by using individual .wav's is anything that most of us want to deal with, you are probably mistaken. Can't say I have EVER heard a user demo here from anyone with a T4 that uses a custom kit...
What I don't get is how you can listen to a MoXF etc., hear wonderful punchy drum KITS, and say that a) the T4 comes anywhere CLOSE, and b) that Yamaha, rather than put kits like this in a Tyros and PSR, so ALL the styles can sound this good, decide to go the closed route of putting audio styles in (and a paltry 5% of the ROM styles, at that) and leaving you high and dry for the other 1000+ styles you may have.
The answer to fantastic sounding styles is NOT audio drums. It is fantastic sounding KITS. And this is something that their WS dept. knows full well.
Look, both Roland and Korg have great multi-velocity kits, with the drums sampled with a bit of studio 'ambiance' sampled in (and the Korg even allows you to vary the 'room mike' level) and combined with great MIDI drumkit playing, can give you a drum sound VERY close to audio, with NONE of audio's considerable drawbacks (no editing, no reverb control, no balance control, no muting kit and leaving percussion only or vice versa, etc.). Take this one step even further, and go listen to audio demos of BFD2 or EZ Drummer, etc, who's drumkits are much larger (but still primarily in GS layout) and I defy you to tell me they are not live playing!
Think about this for a minute... think of the R&D Yamaha must have put in to make these audio drums work. Think about how vari-speed software must have been developed. Think about the time and money spent on sampling these 25 grooves. Think about the extra FLASH RAM added to the PSR to store them, and load (painfully slowly) others in.
THEN.... think how easier it would have been to simply add some more ROM, and add in maybe 5 or so more drum KITS, sampled with multi-velocity, using the same drums, rooms and mikes as these grooves. Sampled with all the studio EQ, comps, and room mikes...
Wouldn't that have been WAY easier to do, and wouldn't that be incredibly more useful? ALL your styles could now be played through them, not the mere 25 that Yamaha meagerly dole out. Not to mention, ZERO extra technology. Just maybe a GB or so more ROM. Chicken feed!
Let me also point out that, at least on Roland's, and I assume on most else, all the note numbers outside the basic GM/GS layout are chock full of other kicks, snares, cymbals, percussion, you name it. There's no impediment to a style having a variety of snares, etc, either as alternates or layered.
I'm sorry, but I think some of you have drunk the Kool-Aid! This was a feature that, when only on Ketron's, no-one particularly cared about. But now that mighty Yamaha come out with a terribly limited, half baked version of it, all of a sudden it's the best thing since sliced bread! You guys amaze me at times!
I declare, were Yamaha to add a Chord Sequencer, watch all the people who didn't give a rats for it on Roland's or Korg's suddenly pronounce it indispensable now Yamaha have one! ________________________________________________________________________ I'm with you mate, every time i have thought i would ever sell my Audya (few if any bugs now) i listen to the real audio, and the ability to change and use within styles, this is what i really want to keep. Nice that Yamaha have finally caught up with the action in part, but really this is a cop out on Yamaha's part once again, whereby the sounds on the Motif could have been seamlessly integrated in a new keyboard as audio, but they want to milk the cow a lot longer. Sure they will sell a lot no doubt, but it's a short term gain for a long term loss, when players buy and then realise the limitations placed on them by the board, it will assist them in looking further for better solutions. So my Audya right now is pretty much perfect, i believe an OS Update is coming, and i only now look forward to better and better features that will lead the pack. Really Yamaha, you have to put the differences between the MI pro sections and keyboards aside, because yes will sell heaps, but i can tell you, and you know the keyboard players are the ones with the money.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#352660 - 10/12/12 10:17 AM
Re: Peter B and others first PSR S950 Demo
[Re: Machetero]
|
Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14301
Loc: NW Florida
|
Robbo... Even though Ketron have leveraged audio drums for much longer, and have got it just about right (sliced drum grooves, not timestretched, right?), I still believe it to be a flawed system.
Once you accept that sampled drum KITS can be as good as an audio groove (as long as matched to a MIDI file that is of high quality playing), really, there's almost no advantage to audio drums, and many, many disadvantages. First and foremost is, on my G70 and most other MIDI arrangers, if I want to take a style and soften it a bit, it's a piece of cake to substitute a brush kit for a rock kit, change the bass to an upright and the guitars to acoustics, and now the style is reborn! You can't do that with audio styles.
If I want more reverb (or less) on the snare, piece of cake. If I need to edit the kick pattern to better suit a particular song, no problem!
With how much better MIDI drum kits are sounding (thank God the trend is starting to go away from bone dry closed mikes drum sounds!), as long as matched to tasty playing, the slight advantage that an audio recording gives you doesn't outweigh its disadvantages, IMHO.
Sample ROM sizes are starting to increase at an excellent pace on arrangers and WS's, getting up close to the GB size. And the Kronos is showing the way to remove that limit completely by streaming samples live from an SSD. All I am saying is that, if mated to much better drum KITS, mere MIDI drumming can come VERY close to live (and some fairly small ROM size arrangers like the Korg's and Roland's already do an excellent job - imagine what they could do with larger kits!), opening out our options exponentially.
There' a world of older styles out there that, if played through a great MIDI kit, could have a whole new lease on life. Audio styles, they are what they are. MIDI styles, they are what you make of them!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I am sure they needed to do some tweaks to the other styles so that the difference is less 
Previous Topic
Index