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#360195 - 02/03/13 04:02 AM
The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
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Moderator
Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1537
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The Gauntlet has been thrown down...Here continues the Midi Styles vs Audio Styles discussion. Some still claim that Midi drum Kits in Styles are the way forward for Arranger Keyboards, others prefer live audio recordings for their rhythm section. Some manufacturers have played with Audio Drums (Wersi and Yamaha for instance) whilst so far only Ketron has fully embraced them with Live guitars and drums. At this point it is a discussion on THE DRUMS ONLY Once we have covered this we can move onto the full styles. RULES: Recording 1) Recording must be done in ONE TAKE via the onboard recorder and presented in WAV or MP3 format. 2) BASS LINE is allowed, but at least one example must be drums only and must not overpower the recording 3) No post editing, except for normalize. 4) You must state the Style Name (in case your tempted to upload a Dylan Elise recording and pretend its from your PS3) Suggestion: keep fills to a minimum...if at all, use intro's and endings wisely. Playback 1) If your listening through laptop speakers or low cost PC speakers your disqualified from having an opinion and will be sent to solitary confinement in the Kawai Discussion Board - Suggestion: use Reference Headphones or good quality DJ headphones (not Eagle sets from 1978 or in ear walkman sets unless you want a slap on your way here) -------------------------- First Challenge: THE SWING CATEGORY
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#360202 - 02/03/13 05:15 AM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Moderator
Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1537
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SWING CATEGORY Here are four from the Audyas original Factory Style Library. Recorded in WAV format, normalised and then converted to MP3 at 128kbps (on my PC) as the files averaged 10mb each as wav, there is a little compression as a result, but not enough to detract. No Fills or Breaks used. 1) Jazz Quartet. No intro, all four arranger parts in order and ending 3 to finish. 2) Romantic Slow. Intro 2 to start with, all four arranger parts in order, ending 3 to finish 3) Swing Time. Intro 3, Arranger 4, Ending 3. Style Bass in F. 4) I love this one: GOGO. Intro One, Arranger 4 (R), Ending 3
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#360246 - 02/03/13 01:05 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Moderator
Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1537
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#360249 - 02/03/13 01:42 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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#360379 - 02/04/13 09:37 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Member
Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 793
Loc: Hellas, Creta, Iraklion
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Thank You for posting the PSR950 recordings. I did not think any Yamaha owners would man up actually - well done!
As Diki pointed out, At the moment we are comparing Mid range keyboards with Audya which is a little unfair, so we still need Korg PA3X and Yamaha's Flagship the Tyros 4 (which came out after the Audya so should be in the running)
Hi Darren... Today I will create demos for my Pa3x...However, I agree.... Audya is too much Live!!!!! I am happy with my Audya!!!
Edited by Sokratis 1974 (02/04/13 09:39 PM)
_________________________
Style Producer Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver
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#360404 - 02/05/13 02:53 AM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Member
Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 793
Loc: Hellas, Creta, Iraklion
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Ok... Here is and Pa3x demos... I recorded in Cubase_6 from SPDIF (Digital Record 48khz), normalize and export to MP3 (320kbps)... Swing Band.mp3Acoustic Shufle.mp3Bossa Nova.mp3 BeBop.mp3
Edited by Sokratis 1974 (02/05/13 02:57 AM)
_________________________
Style Producer Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver
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#360449 - 02/05/13 02:04 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Moderator
Registered: 01/21/10
Posts: 1537
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Well this has been really interesting, thanks for everyone taking the time to do this.
I have been VERY surprised with the results. Putting the Audya aside, I expected to like the Korg best, but it wasn't that simple:
Roland. The BK7 was the biggest surprise for me. The drum kits are indeed excellent (except the brushes which are the worst of the bunch), the big problem is with the patterns themselves, often they are unnatural and lumpy, sometimes the percussion instruments used are totally random and would not be played that way in real life. If Roland were to use real drummers to play the drum parts of the Midi style (using a Midi Drum kit) it would make a huge difference. The BK5 didn't sound quite as good as the BK7, perhaps this was the recording, not sure. Diki's recordings were very good quality, and at 320kbps there is almost no audible compression.
Korg PA3X The Korg patterns are better than the Roland ...although many are obviously programmed much slower as the tom runs are just silly in places! Many are still too jerky though and actually sound like something I might do if I were programming a style (I am not very good and my styles sound too mechanical..like a walking Robot)! The percussion instrument samples are good, but not quite as good as Roland's BK7, but the brushes are far superior to the Roland and are the best Midi brushes I have heard. The Crashes...they are all over the place, lots of different pitches and all over the stereo image which is odd sounding
Yamaha The Midi Drum instruments are the least impressive of the bunch (Maybe the Tyros is better?) and the drum patterns are quite messy. Again....why are Yamaha not using drummers to play the drum parts instead of keyboard players? The Audio drums sound much better than the Midi drums, but the patterns are not great and I am not convinced these are 100% real drummers - sounds like an Audio recording of a Midi Drum style mixed in with some real Audio which is a little weird.
Obviously we all have different benchmarks, and I am glad we have the choice of all these different instruments. Although I couldn't go back to midi styles, I would not want any of these manufacturers to stop... or worse disappear. Its bad enough that Gem and Technics have gone it would be a disaster if we lost another.
Is anyone here a drummer, I would be interested to know what they think?
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#360453 - 02/05/13 02:30 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15569
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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To my aging ears, they all sounded pretty good, not a lot of difference between them, some, particularly the BK7 latin styles, sounded somewhat thin and too much reverb, but overall, there wasn't sufficient difference to make me jump up and down and look for another keyboard because of what I just heard. As for what the audience hears, they could probably care less. Thanks to everyone that took the time to post, Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#360475 - 02/05/13 05:26 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14221
Loc: NW Florida
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I think my original point still stands. Yes, there are slight differences between manufacturers, and yes, overall, audio recordings sound a bit better.
BUT.... only a bit!
And what you lose is EVERYTHING. Not only the ability to edit the pattern, but also to easily make your own, or 'lift' a great set of patterns from an SMF. When time permits, I'll post some patterns from the BK or G70 and then apply a 'Cover tools' preset to them, which changes the kit entirely (it can change the style entirely, too!). It is a piece of cake to take pop patterns, and make them into brush patterns, or Rock patterns and make them techno, whatever... This is something you just can't do to audio.
BTW, one of those Latin patterns was 'thin' because there's no kick drum! If you play the full style, the bass plays the tumba...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#360479 - 02/05/13 05:57 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14221
Loc: NW Florida
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Take the compressor off, Fran. Listen to the patterns without it. Just leave on the Standard EQ preset, and you should be getting apples to apples.
TBH, I don't think there's a LOT of difference in the drum kits (if any). Those samples are pretty small, not a lot of gain shortening them. I think that some of the keyboard Tones, however, have been squeezed a bit, data-wise. This is not unusual for Roland (or most manufacturers) when voicing a BOTL product with the voices from the TOTL...
One of the advantages of recording to the built in recorder is that it bypasses the output circuitry (I think...). So, if you have a BOTL BK-3, which might not have as good a final output circuitry (it uses a TRS single output jack, like some of the BOTL Yamaha's), you should still get a pretty good sound direct to the recorder built in.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#360506 - 02/06/13 02:56 AM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: lahawk]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
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Yes on both questions, you can. I do it all the time. You can also mix and match audio, grooves and midi drums in any way you please.
The 1st thing I do with most 3rd party styles, is to replace the midi drums with audio drums. Of course this does not work for the intro & endings, so I use the original midi drums for those. I can choose midi drums, audio drums, user audio drums and even two banks of grooves. The selection is astounding, to say the least.
Plus, if you want to use any mp3 section in any part of your style, just convert to wave and save in the drum section of the style. It will synch completely, follow the tempo, play in a conineous loop & follow the chords. This feature alone has tremendous potential!
I have absolutely no need to edit any audio section on the Audya - there are hundreds, no, if I count everything, then literally thousands of well defined loops to choose from, and these will play different sequences for different chords.
Really, really awesome.
Keep well all my friends,
Henni
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!
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#360509 - 02/06/13 04:32 AM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Henni]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Yes on both questions, you can. I do it all the time. You can also mix and match audio, grooves and midi drums in any way you please.
The 1st thing I do with most 3rd party styles, is to replace the midi drums with audio drums. Of course this does not work for the intro & endings, so I use the original midi drums for those. I can choose midi drums, audio drums, user audio drums and even two banks of grooves. The selection is astounding, to say the least.
Plus, if you want to use any mp3 section in any part of your style, just convert to wave and save in the drum section of the style. It will synch completely, follow the tempo, play in a conineous loop & follow the chords. This feature alone has tremendous potential!
I have absolutely no need to edit any audio section on the Audya - there are hundreds, no, if I count everything, then literally thousands of well defined loops to choose from, and these will play different sequences for different chords.
Really, really awesome.
Keep well all my friends,
Henni Maybe Yamaha should take some Audio lessons from Ketron?
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#360521 - 02/06/13 05:59 AM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14221
Loc: NW Florida
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It is also possible with the Audya to use Midi drums instead of Audio drums, and then you have the same facilities as any other keyboard, but I guarantee not a single Audya owner would want to do that because through a PA with a room full of people live drums are just miles apart from Midi drums. You wont hear that through headphones or in your home fully....add to that the live guitars and an Audya owner stands out head and shoulders above the rest. This, again, is kind of my point about audio drums... If they ARE so much better than MIDI drums, who wants to use legacy and converted styles only to be shown up by the audio loops? And sorry, but you can only use the audio loops already in the machine. This isn't going to help you one iota with styles in genres either not present at all, or poorly represented (no-one wants every polka, or reggae style to have the exact same drums). Would someone with an Audya care to post some drum demo's of audio styles they have made themselves? Is it even possible? Can you create entire audio drum parts for styles, with Intro/Endings, Fills, Break/Mutes, 4 Variations, maybe a Riff? How easy is it to do? For me, at least, if I had to be content with ONLY the styles that the arranger came with (plus the few that the manufacturer themselves release for it), I would go crazy after a few months! Maybe MIDI styles aren't QUITE as good sounding as audio styles. But I'd rather have an arranger where I could make ANY style sound as good as the best ROM ones (with some editing) than one where I'm stuck with what I get in the first place...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#360537 - 02/06/13 08:01 AM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15569
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Diki, you should buy a Yamaha - lots of third-party styles available. I have more than 50,000 of them, and I've just scratched the surface. Roland has some great, onboard styles, and I frequently use many of them that have been converted. I also use a fair number of converted Korg styles, and in most instances the conversions sound as good, if not better than the original. I know, you're in love with that 50+ pound behemoth you lug from job to job, and maybe Roland will come up with something new in the next decade, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it. The next time I travel to the sunny isles of South Florida I will probably be lugging an S-950. Maybe you could sneak a couple days away from work and head to Marathon Key and try it out. Who knows, you might like what you see, feel and hear. Miracles can happen, you know, Gary
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#360839 - 02/08/13 09:20 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3592
Loc: Middletown, DE
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#360843 - 02/08/13 10:00 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3592
Loc: Middletown, DE
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Dikki,
In response to your quetion above on how to create a USER AUDIO STYLE (in the KETRON AUDYA keyboard that is):-
CREATING THE STYLE FROM SCRATCH
1. Create a MIDI based style (as you would do now) with a 'template/song structure' in mind ofcourse. Include Midi drums [*]. You can use the keyboard (for simple style creation) or use a Midi based software e.g. CUBASE which most of us use (for professional quality). It is advisable to leave Chord 5 empty [**]
2. Share the template with a professional drummer who will now record the drum parts to/for your style above (preferrably at a studio if you want great results). Ofcourse he/she can either record the entire song and you later break down the individual wave files for each part (Intro, Arranger A, B ... Ending) OR, you can have him/her play each part and record separately (the former is better so as not to break the 'feeling'). If you already have a loop library, SKIP THIS PART AND TO TO (3) BELOW AS LIFE JUST GOT A WHOLE LOT EASIER!! This is the most expensive part when it comes to creating an AUDIO style from scratch (including drummer time, studio time ... etc)
3. Collect all 18 individual wave files (i.e. Reggae_Intro1@90.wave, Reggae_Intro2@90.wave, Reggae_ArrA@90.wave ... etc where "@90" denotes the BMP it was recorded as - AUDYA needs this to establish a base from which any tempo variation will be measured from) and COPY into the AUDYA's Hard Drive (Folder called USER AUDIO DRUMS) - using a USB pen drive or by connecting the AUDYA to your PC via a USB cable. This is the same folder where all previous, new, purchased ... etc Audio Drums of yours are stored (the Factory AUDIO DRUMS reside in a different folder).
4. Copy your MIDI BASED STYLE you've created (as you would do for any keyboard)[Reggae.pat] into the AUDYA's Hard Drive (USER STYLE - LATIN folder) so whenever you press the USER STYLE and LATIN category, your style will be displayed and can be selected using the corresponding F1-F10 button to the side of the screen) as is the case now for any style.
HOW TO ASSOCIATE THE RELATIVE AUDIO PARTS
1. Test the style AS IS to make sure all chord parts respond as needed to the different chord structures. If not, you may have to go into the PATTERN/STYLE EDITOR and fix any errors (or back into CUBASE if that is the software that was initially used).
2. If the style is performing well (MIDI BASED), you can now move into the more exiting part which we call AUDIO STYLE MODELLING!
3. Press STYLE VIEW which is our way to display all parts of the style (DRUM1, DRUM2/GROOVE, Bass, Chords 1-5, Lower1, Lower2).
4. F1 (DRUM 1) displays the MIDI drums. Press F1 to highlight them. Now you can instantly scroll through (by simply turning the data wheel) all the over 80+ Midi DRUM KITS to hear how your style sounds with different MIDI KITS ... if you want (this mimics having your Midi Drummer playing the same notes, but on different drum kits). If you want to strictly use AUDIO DRUMS, turn down the volume of the MIDI DRUMS to "0" or ... simply MUTE the actual drum parts (Kick, Snare, High Hat ... etc) that are not needed and leave the Percussion parts which you can now fuse with the AUDIO DRUMS you are about to insert (or mute everything MIDI - if you also have the percussion parts with your AUDIO DRUMS!
5. Press F1 once more and now F1 displays AUDIO DRUMS (off). Ofcrouse they are off as these are the FACTORY AUDIO DRUMS ... which again you can simply press ENTER to turn on and use the DATA WHEEL to scroll through the FACTORY AUDIO DRUMS - if you want to use FACTORY AUDIO DRUMS with your style. If you do select FACTORY DRUMS, you need only select for ONE PART (e.g ARRANGER A) and automatically the others get assigned to the relative AUDIO parts of this AUDIO DRUM loop!
6. Press F1 yet again and it now displays DRUM BANK. Here reside all (well, most) of the DRUM TRACKS used in KETRON products - so you can actually use MIDI and GROOVE DRUM tracks that were used in styles from say the SD1, X1 ... etc!
7. (YOUR INTEREST). Press F1 yet again and now it displays USER AUDIO DRUMS Off. Press ENTER to turn on and use the data wheel to scroll through to YOUR Audio drums. So, if you are in ARRANGER A, you should scoll through for Reggae_A@90.wav. Press ARRANGER B and do the same but this time, scroll through for Regge_B@90.wav and repeat for ALL the arranger parts to assign each part it's corresponding AUDIO DRUM Track (so, you can get creative and record effects, voices ... etc - they MUST NOT ONLY BE DRUMS)! TAKE NOTE ... you can mix and match between AUDIO, MIDI and GROOVES and play all at once, vary each one's volume ... etc. Once more, you're the Engineer in control!
8. Test to make sure all is ok. When satisfied, you can now go through the EFFECTS for each part and modify as needed ... etc.
9. When done, simply press SAVE and the bottom of the screen shows you the current style's name (midi that was previously selected above)- Pressing SAVE (USER 5/10) will OVERWRITE the current STYLE using the same name... or the best thing to do is put a "@" before it so it stores it with the distinctive "A" for AUDIO STYLES and since it has a diffent name now, the original MIDI BASED style will be left untouched.
[*] The reason I mentioned including MIDI drums is so that you can use parts of this (e.g percussion) to supliment the drums ... unless you already have percussion in your AUDIO DRUM files.
[**] In STYLE VIEW, pressing F10 repeatedly (CHORD 5) toggles between MIDI (style's chord 5 part) and LIVE AUDIO GUITAR parts. You may choose to add a LIVE GUITAR to your style!
Here are 2 examples of 2 New AJAMSONIC STYLES (Soca Slide, and Ndombolo) - created from scratch using the points above. I gradually inserted the parts so you can hear how they are/were programmed and thus distinguish them ... also intentionally played more chords and less lead!
It took more time to type this explanation than it would have taken to mix both styles in STYLE VIEW once the AUDIO DRUMS and MIDI parts were created!!
This and a lot more is better explained in the 3hrs+ DVD Manual and Tutorial which we have out so you get a better picture as you SEE and HEAR how to do this ...
Enjoy (and I hope we didn't go off course with the topic at hand) as I tried as best as I could to answer to your question (which you have asked for a while now) ... This also explains (to an extent) why the AUDYA would cost a little more ...
Attachments
Ketron Audya AJAMSONIC - SOCA SLIDE.mp3 (50 downloads)Ketron Audya AJAMSONIC - Ndombolo-2.mp3 (45 downloads)
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#360847 - 02/08/13 10:59 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14221
Loc: NW Florida
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I agree that the MIDI style's drums are only as good as the person or persons who made it... but isn't that also true for the audio styles?
A poorly played loop, or a poorly miked kit, or too much or too little reverb (we'll get to that), and you have the same problems as the MIDI style... or do you?
It's a piece of cake to edit that poorly played MIDI drum loop. It's a piece of cake to edit velocities, to tame or add dynamics where needed. It's a doddle to alter the reverb and EQ per drum so you can wet up the snare without wetting up the kick, too. Want a hair more or less swing on the part? Easy with MIDI. Want to move the backbeats ahead or behind VERY slightly to create push or pull? MIDI drums can do this. Feel the drummer was a bit busy? Start erasing notes out.
If an audio loop is perfection, you are good to go. Mind you, perfection for one tune might be too busy or not busy enough for another. Perfection might only work with all the other parts, basted in the same type of reverb/room sound. Not easy to do with most arranger's built in effects... and you can end up with a style where the drums simply feel 'disconnected'. I've already heard that on some of the Yamaha drum loops.
And that's the bottom line... if perfection doesn't come OOTB, with MIDI and a bit of work, it's doable. With audio, you are done!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#360959 - 02/10/13 08:58 AM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14221
Loc: NW Florida
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Thing is, there's nothing to stop MIDI styles from having drum parts (and others) for a full 16 bar length. Korg already have many style 8 or 16 bars long, which on the drums allows the same degree of lack of repetition, and contributes to many of the Korg styles sounding so good. It isn't a function of the technology, simply of the laziness of people making the styles. You could have two bar loops on an Audya, too..! But Ketron chose not to do that. Nothing to do with audio vs. MIDI.
And sorry, but Yamaha, and others allow different patterns for Maj, Min, 7th (sometimes Dim) which allow you to do the exact same trick. That they don't, often (again, Korg seems one of the best at utilizing this), is not because the technology to do it isn't there... again, it's just that they don't spend the time.
However, doing these subtle tricks is quite easy for someone to do themselves.. Edit the Min sub-variation to move that squeak or slide to another point, or alter a note here and there, rinse and repeat for 7th and dim, save the style... Voilá! Ketron matched!
Extend (copy to itself) the drum track to be 8 or 16 bars long, get in and start adding the odd note, moving the odd note, erasing the odd note, changing the odd velocity... You don't need to do a whole lot to get enough change to make it seem less repetitive. Rinse and repeat on the bassline, the guitar part, however much you feel the style needs...
To be honest, I'm not that keen on endlessly stirring the same ingredients together to try and coax something new out of an arranger. For me, only TWO reggae styles with audio parts won't give me many variations (especially as utterly different they both are!). And you can't make something utterly new from existing parts. Again, one of the strengths of the MIDI system is that, should you find an SMF with a really cool groove, a nice strumming part, bassline, nice percussion, it's easy to grab it and make a style using it (or insert it into an existing style).
So far I have seen no reply to my questions about how easy it is for the user to grab loops from loop libraries and create their own entirely audio part styles... I would have thought this should be primary in an audio arranger. As fractured as the music scene is, as important to young players that easy loop import and editing is, as focused as the factory ROM is on mostly mainstream styles (seriously, two reggae styles?), opening up and making it incredibly easy to import loops and trim them, slice them, whatever the system needs would go a long way to coming to parity with MIDI styles.
But if most of what you can do to get NEW totally audio styles is mix and match the existing ones (with zero editing capability once you have to say match the 'groove' of one audio part with another), again, the benefits don't make it worth the shortcomings, IMO.
Content is King... For an arranger that is so proprietary (can't import audio styles from anything else! LOL), jacking out a copious stream of new, utterly new audio styles (not just drums, but new guitar and bass parts, etc.) is what will put it head and shoulders over the competition. Sorry, but I still believe what advantages it has (trust me, I recognize them) are negated by the disadvantages, and you end up about on par.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#360961 - 02/10/13 09:29 AM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Diki]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
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Diki,
This is not my thread & hence I don't want to say too much.
Tell me my friend, all those things that you state "could" be done with a midi style - do you actually "do" it? If so, you are a very "busy" man & I don't know where you find the time in between to perform.
And all the things that "could" be done on midi styles for various chords, on the Audya they "are" done already for me.
God forbid that I have to go to that extend on my Audya to make my styles usable...
One last thing that you so coveniently overlook in your highly educated discussions, my Audya can play any midi style just the same as your arranger. The audio sections are extra & your arranger CANNOT offer those. I'm not limited to audio alone. My Audya can do ALL those midi tricks you are so fond of highlighting - so I'm loosing out on NOTHING! I have EVERYTHING you have already onboard plus a LOT that you don't have & again, stock standard & onboard!
Currently I have many, many more midi styles on my Audya than Audio styles. I have the flexibility to mix & match, play them sepererately or do just about anything that pleases me with those. You are FAR from having the same - you can only dream - period!
So, what are you critidsizing then that your arranger can do that the Audya cannot, or maybe cannot according to your opinion?
Henni
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!
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#360970 - 02/10/13 11:35 AM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14221
Loc: NW Florida
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If audio drums are SO superior to MIDI ones, who, on a Ketron, is going to be happy to HAVE to move to the inferior MIDI kits just to be able to do the very basic editing things (that the rest of us take for granted)?
And sorry guys, but yes, I've done this a BIT... TBH, with my style of play (I try to do as little as possible with the arranger and play as much as humanly possible myself), I haven't had a great need for it. But yes, I've done some drum editing, moved kicks and hits around, edited the odd fill that bugged the hell out of me, etc.. It takes FAR less time than you think. Remember, you ain't making a style from scratch! Just mousing a few notes around. Try it! You might find it isn't rocket science.
The only points I've been making lately have been responses. Almost every feature of Ketron's audio styles touted as 'exclusives' can also be done with MIDI styles. The only difference being, should you choose to, you can do it YOURSELF.
There are some of us that buy an arranger, switch it on, and that's about it. If it does everything we want, we are good to go. If not, we try another until we find one that DOES. Then there are some of us that, if it doesn't do exactly what we want OOTB (and I must confess, as a US resident, a LOT of our musical needs sure don't come OOTB!) we need something where it is possible to MAKE it do what we need. That, I think, is the defining watershed between happy Audya users and those that need just a little bit more!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#360971 - 02/10/13 12:09 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14221
Loc: NW Florida
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I missed the post a bit earlier where AJ laid out importing drum grooves into the Ketron. Not bad, overall, not too difficult (I imagine that you'll need to do any sample trimming and triple check for tempo in a computer), but I think he makes it a bit overcomplicated, in a way...
Commercial and freeware drum loop libraries are plentiful and often affordable, played by the very best, recorded in the best studios... I think, rather than hiring a drummer to play your MIDI loop, you simply audition these and find what you need.
Plus, in lieu of arranger manufacturers finally making sample ROM sizes big enough (or a Kronos SSD type system where Ram is jacked in fast enough to be practical on a gig) to use VSTi size drum kits, with their level of detail, get a good selection of the best VSTi kit libraries and their associated MIDI libraries (Toontracks have a huge selection for their kits) and then simply export the drum loop (that you CAN edit all you like!) as a .wav for importing into the Audya.
Mind you, I'm not reading anything about new strumming libraries, am I? Basslines, if the import system is the same, shouldn't be a huge issue, but guitar strumming, with Ketron's hybrid audio/MIDI system for getting more than basic Maj, Min, 7th chords is probably an issue. Shame, really, as, just like drums, there are some fantastic guitar strumming and picking patterns (in most chord types and keys) libraries out there...
But, at least from users here, most of what I'm getting from actual Audya USERS is that, it's fine as is, never made an audio style yet... no matter HOW simple it seems!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#360982 - 02/10/13 01:24 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Tonewheeldude]
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Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3592
Loc: Middletown, DE
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Dikki,
I thought I had answered this quesion above in great detail but in all that text, the answer could have been burried (sorry)...
"So far I have seen no reply to my questions about how easy it is for the user to grab loops from loop libraries and create their own entirely audio part styles"
Here is the summarized answer:-
* Grab "loops from loop libraries" and copy them into the AUDYA's AUDIO DRUM Folder in it's Hard Drive. * Go to the AUDYA'S PATTERN EDITOR/STYLE CREATOR and create style * Go to STYLE VIEW and insert/replace with the AUDIO parts. * Save your new style.
That's how easy it is.
Again remember - AUDYA does have the MIDI STYLE creativity, editability and flexibility most other top of the line arrangers have. The AUDIO intergration is just the plus ... the "AMG" added to the Mercedes, the "M" added to the BMW which is what makes it stand out from the others!
As for number of UK/US/Western additional styles since it's creation:-
* Ketron 107 -> (47 in 2011 USB pen drive update plus 60 in 2012 USB pen drive updates) and more in the works - * AJAMSONIC 95 -> (55 in Version 1 and 40 in Version 2) and more in the works - * Ketron UK 5 -> (5 as of Feb, 2012) and Style Program is promising yet even more.
That's a total of over 207 (*) UK/US/Western only new Styles with Audio parts included (which cover Ballad, Pop, Dance, Party, Rock, Swing, Latin/Carribbean, Folk, and Ballroom)!! I am not aware of another provider of Ketron AUDIO styles to include in this count but considering the time and dedication it takes to produce these so they sound 'right' out of the box, it's not a bad start.
You are correct - Audio in general does have limited editing capabilities but just as you had earlier mentioned, "If an audio loop is perfection, you are good to go" and this is what we strive for so you are 'good to go' out of the box. "Mind you, perfection for one tune might be too busy or not busy enough for another" and here is where you are givin the option to select from a vast library of say Pop Audio drums (busy/not too busy, heavy/not too heavy on kick/snare/tom, with/without Effects, higher/lower original BMP to determin style tempo range, with Techno/Acoustic/Electonic etc drum kits ... etc). The permutations and combinations come close to endless. Given this selection, the desire/need to edit individual drum parts fades away.
(*) There could be more by third party style creators and others out there which I am not currently aware of.
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#361011 - 02/10/13 08:11 PM
Re: The SZ Audio Drums vs Midi Drums Shootout
[Re: Fran Carango]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
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Henni, I think you are reading more into Diki's post than what there is.... Yes Fran, You've are right. Bottom line is this: Take any arranger of your choice, & I mean any. Now add full audio to it. Now you have what the Audya offers as standard. You lost nothing that you've had before, but you gained very much. And with Cubase or Cakewalk or the likes, you can edit your midi styles to any drop down detail you want to. Now, you choose whether you continue using midi styles alone, or whether you start including some audio in between your performances. You are not dictated by your arranger towards any specific method. And this is the beauty of it all that I want to highlight. You have both... Not to worry, this concludes my contribution towards this thread. Ketron did not drop midi in favor of audio, instead they maintained midi & included audio with much, much more flexibility than i.e. on the S950. All the best my friend, Henni
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!
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