Hello folks I just popped back to the forum for some quick advice. Some of you may know that I have the KorgPA1x and I have loved that instrument from the beginning until now. The reason why I love the instrument is because of its built-in speakers it's comprehensive sequencer and sound editing facility. I have not used the sampler to any great degree However I know that Yamaha have in my view a more realistic sound particularly for real world instruments.

I have come across a deal for a used T4 for below 2000 English pounds. Including speaker system. I am very tempted however one of the key things for me is being able to compose and create on-board the instrument using it sequencer and sound editing facilities. This is more important to me even more so than the inbuilt speakers.

Has anyone had any experience of creating composing and writing music on board the tyros without external computers or software? The last Yamaha I owned was the PSR 8000 and I was able to create on it but it was like working with one hand tied behind your back. I am very adverse to using any form of external computer gear to work with as it's just so unintuitive to me and I do not have the space of time to setup and breakdown as I have limited space . The way that I work often means that I am creating at the drop of a hat at rehearsal or in my brothers bedroom /studio . I am already convinced that the T4 in terms of its sounds will be in a huge step up from my ancient beautiful existing keyboard. But the beauty of my old board was the workflow. I need someone who has experience doing what I do , creating detailed sequences and styles onboard the instrument you play . In this case being a T4 . For example, cutting and pasting and quantising one specific tracks to specific tracks within specific measures. The manual looks very sparse indeed and if the editing on board is as limited as the manual might indicate then the sequence has not improved at all since the days of the PSR 8000. Is that correct ?

Get a PA3x for what your describing.........much better editing capabilities, plus your familiar with the KORG OS.

I would stick to the Korg operating system too. As you say, Yamaha's samples of natural instruments are so often regarded as more realistic than Korg, but I made the opposite experience comparing many Korg M3XP sounds to Yamaha Motif XS sounds. There was a giant leap from M3 to M3XP, and especially the brass&woodwinds expansion had breathtakingly realistic samples I didn't have in the Motif XS presets (or MoX, exactly same 355MB waveROM). So, if the PA 3X allows to have expansions of the quality of M3XP, I don't think you need a Tyros for the sounds.

I have a Pax3 76 if your after one? haha

I don't need all the editing feature's...Thats why for me now I wish I just brought a Tyros. Plug in and play....

Hi Worth,

I have to agree with the above...stick with the Korg...better sequencer editing facilities.

I'm like MattyB above...I like to just turn on and play, and my basic recording needs are well met by the Tyros4.

Ian

Ok thanks for the advice guys . I will wait a little bit longer and see if korg bring a new pa product in the new year or see if prices have dropped on a pa3x. Just out of interest has anyone actually owned the Pa 3x and tyros 4 and been able to compare the sounds in a real live environment? Certainly the P a 900 and PSR S9 50 youtube comparison I have listened to , the sounds were comparable in my ears . Is the PA 3X sonically a step up from the P a 900 or do they sound identical? Perhaps it might be better for me to consider a PA 900 as opposed to the PA 3X ?

Absolutely stick with the Korg - I have had three Tyros models and sound editing is just terrible and handicapped.

I now have the Pa900 and it is every thing the Tyros should have been - now I am thinking the Pa3X would be even better, but is the Pa4X just around the corner - oh hell - what to do?

Bill G

As said above. Korg is for professionals. Tyros is for enthusiasts. Sigh.

I'd stick with the Korg, spalding, for the familiaity with the OS and the editing depth. Korg's TOTL release cycle seems to be four years, if their past releases are anything to go by.
Pa1x - 2003
Pa2x - 2007
Pa3x - 2011
Pa4x - 2015 (logically, anyway)

And I'd assume the price would still be well below a T5.

It's such a shame that yamaha has produced such a stellar sounding instrument and then hamstrung it so it so it's full creative potential can only be truly realised if you purchase more gear . It would have cost nothing to have a more detailed sequencer onboard and editor . They already have that on their other workstations . Such a pity

I would advise you to evaluate the type of music you play. I would recommend the Tyros 4. The voices are unmatched by anything on the market. The OS is easy to understand and the keyboard is feature packed. That is a wonderful price for a T4. The other thing to consider is the quantity of support and styles for the Tyros are unmatched by any other manufacturer.

That's certainly true to my ears ! But I want and need a true workstation arranger hybrid and tyros really loses out even compared to my 10 year old pa1x as a workstation. Love the tyros sounds but can't live without onboard sequencing and editing features . It really is a deal breaker unfortunately .

Most manufactures are moving their advanced editing facilities off-board and onto tablets, (Logical has they have bigger and better touch screens) so you may find the T5 will do the same.

Take your keyboard to a pro music shop and have listen to it through some quality speakers as you will be amazed how good it sounds. (Sometimes a little inconvenience can save you a lot of money)

Yamaha and Korg are 2 different types of sound, CD (Yamaha) and Live (Korg) also don’t be deceived by online demos as the pro ones use £1000s of external equipment which is beyond most users.

Forget the Yamaha Tyros speakers as they are a complete total disaster and make it sound like a wind up gramophone. (Hence you won’t find any pro using them)

If your new to arrangers then the Yamaha OS is the easiest to get into whereas the Korg is a pain in the backside, however if you are used to a Korg then you will find the Yamaha OS is very difficult to get into (They are completely diametrically opposed) so try before you buy.

Although it’s a bit more hassle I would still consider adding a laptop and some VSTs via Midi, as the T5 and all arrangers are still years behind the pro market in both quality of sound and editing.

Hope this helps

Bill

I think you've answered your own question, spalding.

The thing that occurs to me is, why do you want to avoid the easiest, most cost effective, most powerful way to record and compose music available today?

The computer.

Even the most sophisticated workstations, let alone the latest greatest arrangers, come a VERY distant second to the power, ease of use and quality of sounds available to computer users.

Sure, you need an arranger in the first place to perhaps speed up the initial composing and comping process, but trying to shoehorn the entire process into one keyboard is, IMO, unnecessarily cramping your style, limiting your options, and putting a self-imposed limit on how good the sounds you use are...

There is no comparison between the better VSTi's and keyboard sounds nowadays. No matter HOW good the arranger sounds, there's a VSTi (often at a cost of a 20th of the arranger, even less when you consider a $5000 Tyros!). There is no comparison between the ease and power of recording audio and manipulating it on a nice 27" screen rather than a tiny 4" window, nor does any arranger have as high quality a suite of effects for any conceivable need.

Personally, I would recommend the least expensive arranger you can get away with, in fact, maybe stick with the PA1X you already have. It's enough to quickly record a MIDI rough of the tune (plenty of PA3X to PA1x style conversions out there, plus a ton of other manufacturer styles have been converted). But combine this with a computer, a nice DAW, and a suite of VSTi's and a loop library, and you can make music no one arranger ever will...

Is there any particular reason other than technophobia that is preventing you wanting to use the BEST tool for the job?

I understand where you are coming from, Worth...I like having it all in my keyboard as well.

The Tyros4's sequencer's editing is fine for what I do, but the Korg beats it, being more powerful. However, I also like my Tyros4's ability to send the midi recording to it's on-board audio recorder...Elvis never has to leave the building.

I suspect Korg will come out with another TOTL arranger in the not too distant future, so PA3X instruments will be on the market, and since you are comfortable with Korg's OS, it should be a strong consideration.

The PA3X is a fair jump from your own PA-1X, especially with the DNC voices, and has nearly as good third party support as Yamaha.

Good luck, my friend. If you do get a Tyros4, that offer of my personal styles still applies , but I really think you'd be better served by the Korg.

Ian

Thanks for the response Ian and Dikki. I am not a technophobe. I use computers at work all day. The last thing I want to do when I get home is to switch on the computer. But the thing is when I switch on my keyboard I start to play as I start to play I get ideas and as I get ideas I start to compose and as I start to compose I use the sequencer on the instrument along with styles I might start to form. Or I might just straight sequence everything from scratch . And I use all the onboard features to quite a defined degree. Then I take my music onboard the instrument to choir meetings and play from the keyboard my ideas with the choir and if they like it fine. If not then I might edit the piece whilst I am there , copy and paste the chorus with a key change , add new brass lines , bass lines etc so the instrument is integral to how I work . That's my work flow ,that's why I love having an on-board all in one package on my keyboard.

Also I'm a family man and therefore have limited space even for my keyboard set up at home .so space is a premium thing as is any free time .

Therefore anything that impedes my immediate workflow , no matter how more practical might seem to you Dikki actual has the opposite effect for me .

I am clearly not the only person who has a work flow like this as most workstations actually have a pretty decent onboard sequencer and sound editor . I'm fact all the pro workstations have this kurzweil yamaha motif korg roland fantom s,x,and g !

I predicted many years ago on synthzone that workstations and arranger keyboards will meld into a single pot of performance instruments. The Motif has come the closest to this and it may well be my next "arranger keyboard ".

The Motif is not an "arranger" - I repeat the Motif is not and "arranger". I have owned three of them and they are no doubt among the tops for synth/workstation work, but their design is wrong for arranger type playing. I have also had three Tyros keyboards and now a Korg so I feel MHO has some merit.

You may be spot on tho that the Motif would be better suited for the type work methodology you use.

Bill G

For me, it is a balance between workflow and quality of final results...

In a perfect world, you could do it all in the keyboard, but there would be a nice 27" monitor attached, to make seeing everything you need easy on the eyes. And a mouse input, to navigate with quickly, and make quick selection possible.

But short of some of the TOTL 'computer in a keyboard' instruments (Neko, Mediastation, etc.), the price you pay for being able to sit at a keyboard and do it all is FAR less ease of use. And ease of use is what it appears you are after. One of the problems you have with a 'one box' solution is that, all you get is what that one box can do. If this is up to your standards, I guess you are good to go. But personally, I find that the arranger output is only the START of the process. After that comes considerable editing and replacement of arranger parts with played ones, addition of considerable loop audio, and then replacement of the arranger's sounds with better sounds from either other keyboards, or VSTi's.

THEN... you have whatever audio you want to record, from as basic a thing as a simple vocal (never really that simple if you want to comp together multiple takes!) to backing vocals, to real guitar parts. And here, the computer is king. No arguments at all. From easy comping, to insert effects far beyond what the arranger can do, to ease of identification of what track does what, to a track count no arranger can match...

In fact, there really isn't an arranger that can handle multi-track audio without horribly convoluted workarounds. Most of them have simple 'one take' audio recorders that offer little control, if any. If all you want to do is record your voice singing the song (from beginning to end, better not make a flub in the middle!) you are probably good to go. And if that's all you intend to do, sure, have at it. But I think you'll find yourself wanting to put on a bit more polish than that, after a while.

Maybe you just want to record quick and dirty song demos, roughs that won't see the light of day, but if you want to record something more professional, I'm afraid a computer is going to have to be a part of your arsenal. Look, it might seem a bit daunting to start with, but it's just the same as mastering any modern TOTL arranger. It's going to take a while. But, at least with the computer, there is no artificial upper limit to what you can do. You'll be banging the ceiling on any modern arranger, trying to record a complete song on it.

And, in the end, the computer you buy will be a tiny fraction of what something like a PA3x or T5 is going to cost you, and you can always go laptop, if you can't get access to the house computer for music making. But it's power is exponentially better.

In the end, it comes down to what you want to do. If all you want is a quick sketchpad, the arranger will do in a pinch. But if your plans include any audio and a finished master, you are going to find arrangers severely limiting.

I have been happy enough with my korg pa1x arranger for 10 years. It has everything I need for now and suits the way I work . When I want to record an album I pass on my rough work to my brother who is an incredible producer and he uses his God given abilities to polish and mix my work . That's not my gift .It seems crazy to me that yamaha has deliberately left off this one thing on their arranger workstations but so be it . I can wait for the next korg or motif

Well i have seen & heard the T5. Don't mind the finish actually not a shiny silver, but a classy titanium that is easy on the eye. The instruments, wow don't think i've heard better, except in vst versions. The keybed which is same as t4 is great. The T5 76 is a monster impressive in many ways, although, and i know that the target audience are not pro players, although the t's are great for paid performers, is a little too long in my opinion, and better space saving design may have made it more transportable.

My major critism is on price here in Aus at close to $8k which is the rrp of the 76 plus speaker pack, this makes it about 2k more than a T4, which i think (an opinion is way too expensive). I hope that by the time the units arrive in Aus and after due consideration a price somewhere between $5k and $6k will be the affordable price for product that will sell in numbers that will be acceptable for both dealers and consumers. I mean 3 years from now it's either superseded or deleted from a product line. The price here does not truly reflect this fact. If it was to say completely upgradeable without having to buy a new T6 then the asked price now probably would not sound as bad.

Classy it is, no doubt, hope the price falls to allow one to purchase it.

Thanx for the update.....you make very valid points.

Good news fir Aussie buyers (me included) Yammy have obviously adjusted the RRP $ of the T5 to bring in line with other rrp's around the world. This puts the 76 at $6395 aus dollars (does not include speaker pack which is extra).

So i'm happy to say that a driven deal with my friends the dealers has bought it back to affordable to me!

Thanks Yammy and the dealer of course.