I have heard lots of talk about the e-80 here and it does seem like a wonderful (if oddly shaped) board. I have listened ti some of the impressive demos and it clearly sparkles. I would like to know what the REAL differences between the e 80 and e 60 are. Are the sounds the same? The styles? I know there are fewer sounds and styles in the 60 and there is no after-touch, but is the quality of those sounds and styles inferior? Is one a beginner board while th other is an advanced "pro" board? I am a gigging musician in the market for a new arranger - I have been using a Technics KN2000 (as a MAIN BOARD, I should add) forever - and I am looking at the Roland boards.Thoughts, anyone?

E60 is a little brother to E80, and that means less styles (with less complex structure), less poliphony, and more important, less sharped sampled sounds. it was a large discution at the time when the both boards were released about the clarity and quality of sounds, and i also got to the conclusion that even though the sounds are the same as number (i hope i remember right) the quality of the sample is pourer on E60. you can easily notice that also from the demos on their website.
nevertheless, the E60 provides you with some features that none other keyboard offers in this price range: 76 keys (with good feel), guitar mode (very handy in writing guitar tracks), good styles, modern and very inspiring, good sounds, etc.
i wouldn't call the styles "inferior" to E80, but just less complex. in fact, many of the E80 styles are also in the E60, but modified as structure, according with the hardware's possibilities.
as my oppinion, i would say if you really like E80 (many don't, so be noticed) you would not go wrong with E60 either. the best way, give them a try when you can.

I agree with Adimatis' comments; I want to add that, compared to E-80, E-60 is missing also the Virtual Drawbar mode, the Vocal Harmonist, the 3 MFX for Song/Style parts and the single part equalizers, but it is lighter, cheaper and has 76 keys.
It mainly depends on what you're looking for and on your needs.

what they have done is absurd: make a $1500 kb and a
$3500 kb, both of which have glaring drawbacks, instead
of one $2500 kb, which could have become the industry
standard for years and something that would be heaven
for players to enjoy... a 76-key great-feeling lightweight
good-looking kb like the e60, combined with the vocal
harmonizer (or at least a mic input w/controls/efx) better navigation, optional multipedal capability, and other upgrades the e80 offers. Instead what we have is a bare-bones e60 and an ugly 50-lb 61-key behemoth of an e80.

Miami Mo

Mo, what you get with that 50 lbs...is the most powerful on board sound system on the market...There are many other pluses you get with the E80, too

Drawbacks for me are the 61 keys on the E80, and if it holds true as in the past, the lesser models do not sound as good as the top models..

BTW , I haven't played either one...only played the G70..that has the key range and feel, and the goodies offered on the E80....5 pounds less weight..

I have to confess, the E80 does not have sufficient new sounds or features for me to want to give up my G70.

Firstly, I have NO need for built in speakers. I play strictly under gig conditions, or at home in the studio, both of which provide FAR superior amplification. Secondly, for me personally, I need a 76. Haven't gigged anything smaller for 15 years. So just in form factor the E80 has two strikes against it.

The only OS improvement I covet is the style-to-text and bitmap display options, and I think there's a slim possibility the text-to-style might make an appearance in the G70's OS. The bitmap stuff we have been told needs hardware the G70 doesn't have, so no chance of that!

A lot is made of the E80's three MFX insert effects, compared to the G70's one (for keyboard Parts only), but the truth is, there's an easy workaround (connect the Direct Outs to the IFX - an extra MFX with RCA inputs for external gear) that now gives us TWO MFX, and one can go on Style Parts. So not that significant, at least IMO.

The two Mastering Effects blocks (compared to one on the G70) again have little impact on me. I HATE the compressor (no metering, so VERY easy to over-do, and I'm TRYING to sound dynamic and 'live', NOT CD-like!), and use very little master EQ (got a mixer for that!), so no problem there....

I have yet to even get one SRX board, so two SRX slots would be wasted on me! (Although I'm starting to take a shine to the Brass board)

Damn thing's heavy enough without adding another 5lbs for the speakers! Plus I use a full flight case for it... (but someone will pay me top dollar for it when I sell it five or ten years from now!). I usually prefer duo work, so weight isn't QUITE the issue some seniors have with anything other than fly-weights.

The sounds..... So far, I haven't heard anything on a demo that makes me go 'I GOT to have this...!'. Yes, there's a 'slightly' improved piano, but I already LOVE the G70's main one, so no real 'need'. A few new drum kits, but again, nothing I can't live without, and a few sliced audio loops of drum 'performances' (ride loops, etc.) that I think are gimmicky and I'll probably tire of, quickly. Some extra sounds, but apparently, a LOT of older sounds missing, as Roland decided to leave out a lot of the Sound Canvas sounds that make backward compatibility much easier. I had a G1000 prior to the G70, and actually LIKE some of those older sounds! Plus it makes converting older styles a bit easier...

So... long story short (as if! ), until Roland come out with a new 76-er, hopefully with the return of the Chord Sequencer and MANY new features and sounds, I don't see the point in 'upgrading' to an only slightly improved arranger.

And for those of you thinking about the E80, try to play a G70 (with OS3 installed) along side it if you can. I think you will find it to be fairly (very!) similar, and now that G70's are being sold at some MI stores, while the E80 still languishes in CK 'Mom and Pop' stores, with little discount, you can probably get a G70 for nearly a grand less than an E80. Someone sold a slightly used one here for $2k recently. That's a bargain compares to nearly four grand for an E80....

The E80 is a VERY good arranger... I just don't think it is $1000 better than a G70.

Hi Diki.

The G70 here in the UK is far cheaper than the E80 and these are still selling very well. With you mentioning that the E80 styles have been converted for the G70 (and they are very good because my neighbour has a G70), I agree totally with you above.
The benefit of 76 notes would be great and the G70 is also lighter, so you'd get a far better deal going for a G70, unless the few extra options in the E80 are really what you need.

I still like the G1000 piano rather than the new ones in these arrangers. That machine was just so classy when it came out and is a great buy if any come up 2nd hand.

The G1000 piano is in the G70. But I never use it any more, the GrandX FantomX piano is FAR better (true stereo rather than fake panning mono samples, more velocity switch dynamics) and MUCH warmer in the middle of the keyboard, something I used to find lacking in the G1000.

I don't like overly bright piano sounds. I've got a real piano, I play Steinways and Yamaha's all the time for studio work, and VERY few arranger pianos give of that mid range warmth that a real piano does. Most of the arrangers sound like you are pounding the darn thing, even if you are playing mid or low strength. This just makes quiet passages sound 'distant' and brittle, rather than 'close' and warm, which a real piano does (IMO)...

It's easy(-ish!) to get a good piano sound at the top and bottom of the keyboard, but detail and warmth in the middle is very elusive. The G70 is the first hardware one I've enjoyed (soft-pianos like Ivory are MUCH better). My comments, though are entirely about the GrandX patch. I quite dislike most of the others, mostly because of too much 'hammer knock' sound on them. But, IMO, one good piano sound is all you need!

Of course, if you prefer that bright, almost tack piano sound that cuts through ANYTHING (Yamaha's pianos come to mind, even including some of their REAL pianos!) you are not going to agree, but spend some quality time on a really good piano (play some soft passages, put the soft pedal down now and again!) and then go back to your arranger. NOW do you see....?

Mo, I can see you are upset with some of the feature losses on the E60, but, pray tell us, which features WOULD you drop off the E80 to save $1500?

And what 'glaring' drawback does the E80 have other than being heavy? Most Wersi owners are going 'THAT ain't heavy!'

Be realistic... what you REALLY want is a full E80 for MUCH less that Roland can make it. Me, I want a Maserati for the price of a Honda. I want a T2 for the price of an MM6. But I don't think complaining is realistic...! (or effective)

You can often find G70s for the mid-to-upper $2ks. THAT is the product you are asking for! Lighter than the E80, all the same control possibilities, and even BETTER output options, 76 keys! You virtually described the G70 in your post....

What's stopping you?

to add my bit...i have the e-50 (on top of my yammie s90es)and it does sound quite good throught the PA.... but now i am seriously considering (even to the point of getting my dealer to get a "price" for me) moving up to the g70, and ditching the e-50 and the yamaha...i might consider a motif es rack, but that is ONLY for the electric guitar sounds, nothing else...and if roland add the OS updates diki has mentioned, as i think they are essential, especially the chord sequencer, then choosing the g70 is a no-brainer...(when was the last time you got an os update from yamaha??)
dennis

let's see..the G70 can be had slightly used about $1500+
less than an E80, it's got 76 keys vs.61, and it's 5 lbs lighter, and better looking. but the E80 has speakers and
some more advanced features..gee this is really a hard decision..NOT. but unfortunately...

either is too heavy for me, and speakers are an advantage
even on live gigs as monitors. The E60 comes in at 30 lbs
with speakers. so how much more would it weigh if they added a mic input w/controls, a plug-in for the Roland multipedal, an OS that makes better use of the existing
buttons instead of wasting at least 8-9 existing ones.
I'd be willing to pay a few hundred more for that. why is everyone saying I'm asking for the moon, and why don't i just take on 14-19 more lbs like it meant nothing? I don't want everything the E80 offers, I just want the E60 to have
a few more necessities, for which I am willing to pay.

------------------
Miami Mo

piggybacking on myself--
you know you guys are talking about the 5lb weight
difference between the G70 and E80 as significant...10%..
45 v 50 lbs. yet you keep talking about quality of sounds
being so important- carrying a heavy keyboard around,
swinging it on and off the kb stand, lifting it in and out of your vehicle, and other gyrations one has to go through with an object that is large and awkward and subjects even young bodies to stress and strain, is worth the sacrifice, not to mention the convenience, of a lighter unit.

But the E60 and the Korg pa800 and the soon-to-come
Yamaha s900 are all in the 30 lb range-- now there's a
significant reduction..33% lighter than G70, 40% lighter
than E80, vs the 10% difference between G70 and E80.
and the sonic differential is nowhere as significant. So why
shouldn't we say..hey give a little better upgrade to those
3 30-pounders, even a little more weight if necessary, and a fair price increase for that..and we are buyers.


------------------
Miami Mo

People always complain about Kb weight .......but never about Pa speaker or Amp weight

mfrs are making amps and spkrs much lighter, they have to feel that's what the buyer wants, no?

also, it's easier to deal with more weight in amp.. single handle, more compact. kb shape is more awkward, plus one has to be more careful not to disturb keys, buttons, etc.

Well, they do, just not here! People complain about the government, too. They just don't do anything about it....

The G70 provides a FAR better, more stable keybed than the E60. This alone needs a more sturdy case. People sit down at a piano, and never complain about the weight, but trust me.... if it weighed 25 lb., it wouldn't play the same way. There is a noticeable difference between a keyboard that, when you hit it, it doesn't move, and one that does. If key-feel and stability mean nothing to you, then it's of no worth, but for me, the difference in feel between a lightweight keybed and something married to some mass is important.

You've got to start being realistic about weight. There isn't a single 88 worth a damn under 30 lb. 76-ers are few and far between, and by NO means the better feeling key-beds out there.... At that weight, doesn't bounce worry you? You start playing with any force at the ends of the keyboard, and unless the keyboard is on a table, it is going to bounce like crazy. Now, perhaps you never learned on a piano, or think that a moving keyboard can still translate your velocity input accurately, but most of us are more realistic.

If your keyboard 'bounces' while you play... you are playing a toy. Linus knows all about it...

Mo, I'm just hearing 'Give me an E60 with a Harmonizer and an FC-7 input". Well, that is a G70 plus a boatload of better sounds. Sorry about the weight, but that keybed comes at a price. And if you can't lift 45 lb., what does your doctor say about music as a career? If you CAN'T lift 45 lb., I might suggest a strength trainer.... Money well spent, in the long run.

And sadly, the E80 or the G70 uses the D-Beam in exactly the same way as the E50/60. No improvement there. It's kind of sad. Roland did exactly what you wanted, shaved enough off the cost and weight of the G70 to please you, but now, it's not enough. You want more. But don't want to pay for it....

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 05-16-2007).]

Diki, i suggest a reading comprehension class.
I specifically said i want to pay for more.
I have always said that.
Can't lift 45 lbs? never said that..I'm now lifting
a 50-lb vintage Duovox amp. it's heavy, but it's a one-hand lift, and always low on the floor, except in/out of vehicle.
I don't WANT TO lift a 45-lb keyboard, or a 40 lb kb, or
even a 35-lb kb. it's not the same as lifting an amp, it's
awkward, it's problematical. i don't care what you say the
advantages are..would you shlep a 70-lb keyboard if it
was more stable than your g-70? why not carry a digital piano, use it as controller too for a module. that'll give
you plenty of stability, i reckon. you're always telling me to get a contoller and be a midi-man. Y not you?
How about all you guys that keep telling those of us who
don't like to use heavy boards to shut up about it, how about all of you shut up about it instead? you make your trade-offs, I'll make mine..and hey, Diki, while you're at it,
stop complaining about certain features you wish your kb's would have, and then criticizing others who want features they would like to have.
In simpler terms, get off your high horse, OK? I appreciate the knowledge you have and your willingness to share it.
You have been helpful to me and others. But sometimes
you have the air of a know-it-all. here's news:You don't.

Yes Diki has the air to know everything and of course he does not. But on the other hand he is very good informed and he knows a lot and that is why I read his messages.
He is very helpfull and that is one of the good reasons to read every day the Danish Roland site.
On that site you will find every month some free new Mart Weeho Styles for Roland Arrangers.

well, E50 does not have a D-beam.
and ANY keyboard would bounce if the stand is not adequate.

just for the record, the Tyros 2 has almost the SAME keyfeel as the G70 (i couldn't tell the difference) and it weighs a shit load less than the G70...

if it rattles when u play it - u need a new / better stand...

keep it nice gents.

I agree that a good wide stand should reduce any potential for bounce no matter how hard you hit the keys but having said that a solid keyboard does make a difference. I think any board less than 25lbs in weight would move about too much if played really hard.

Are you joking?

Mo.... I agree that you said you wanted to pay 'a bit' more. Not as much as Roland want you to pay, but hey, it's your purchasing decision... So you want pretty much ALL the E80's features at the E60's weight (and being over 30 lb., even THAT falls outside of the 25 lb. target by SOME players here!). I still haven't seen you post about what you ARE prepared to give up for that $1500...

Why have we turned into a nation (or world!) of whiners and weaklings...? Back in the 70's, we (or our more elderly contemporaries) lugged around MUCH heavier equipment, and somehow got the job done. Have we atrophied that far?

Look, I understand that for many of you, key-feel, and solidity mean nothing. Some of you can't even tell the difference between a G70 and a T2! I don't expect you to 'get' it. Perhaps you learned on super lightweight keyboards with crappy actions and are used to it. Perhaps your playing level isn't up to the point at which a decent action would make a difference. Who knows (or cares)?

But the fact is, the entire keyboard industry makes keyboards that are WAY heavier than your 30 lb. target. If you were the majority opinion, do you think they would continue to do so? MOST keyboard players seem to prefer a solid keybed and a substantial weight, especially to 76-ers and 88's. Just be grateful that the arranger industry IS prepared to make ultra-lightweights for the seniors that often play them.

But PLEASE don't try to persuade us that this lightness comes with NO drawbacks or compromises. If that were so, there would not be a single keyboard out there over 30 lb.!

But, yes, I agree that they could be made a BIT lighter. My G1000 weighed about 5 lb. less than my G70. It was a bit physically smaller, and made primarily of plastic and composites, but had exactly (or close to it) the same key-bed. But that still put it at 40 lb.. WAY outside your target weight. Didn't stop it from being one of the most popular arrangers during it's product cycle....

Do you think that Roland, or any other manufacturer of 76's and 88's does NO market research? Do you think that if the vast majority of players looking for a 76 note arranger were unwilling to buy a 45-50 lb. arranger that they would still go ahead and make one? I'm afraid that you might have to admit that your feelings about weight are in the minority. The fact that these arrangers DO sell seems to indicate that for what Roland consider their target consumer, this is OK...

At least, these buyers are prepared to admit that shaving it down to 30 lb. would involve more structural and 'feel' compromises than they are prepared to take. When they eventually learn how to make an arranger that feels as good and solid as my G70 at 30 lb., I will be the first to buy one. But while there is any form of compromise, I am prepared to lug around a keyboard that is still 80 lb. lighter that the keyboards I used in the 70's and 80's!

What we have here is a failure to deal with reality. If all arrangers WERE under 30 lb. (and felt the way they do now), you wouldn't want to listen to me whine all the time about how much like a toy they feel. "Deal with it...' you would say. Now just flip that around.

Or maybe I can interest you in a balsa-wood piano? Or a chipboard B3.....?

------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Ian agreed

no dont stop now ....lets see if we can squeaze some more juice from the size/weight/quality argument a bit longer.....

There is no size/weight argument, except from those who
have heavy boards and like them, who want to piss on everyone who likes lighter boards. In the 30 lb and under
category, TOTL is the Korg pa800, the Roland E60, the
Yamaha psr-3000 (until the new Yamaha s-900 out in 2
months The T2 isn't that much over 30 lbs, the Ketron
Sd1+ and sd5+ are in mid-30's. I think the E60 has a
pretty good feel, i suspect the Sd1+ does too, and both
are 76 keys. I never had a problem with my Korg is35 at 28 lbs, or my Technics kn2600 at 25 lbs. I don't know
how "solid" they have to be, i use an X-stand and they don't bounce around at all, and i can get a lot of different
shadings with no problem at all.

Diki , maybe your problem is that you really want a PIANO
not a synth keyboard. Maybe your technique is carried over from when you only played piano and you haven't
developed the kind of touch one needs on a synth keyboard. maybe you hit the keys TOO HARD,

Your arguments are specious re manufacturers: they are
all scrambling to make lighter equipment. lighter keys,
lighter amps, lighter speakers. It's not for the senior
market they do this. it's just the way technology advances.

you are a total sissy compared to the guys who lug their
hammond b3's around with their leslies. if you want to have a solid keyboard so much, as i said earlier, why not
take a nice digital piano in the 70-100 lb range? these days they have many arranger keyboard features, too.

and I don't like it when you distort what i say. I say I'm
willing to pay what is reasonable for a better OS and mic plug-in and multipedal jack. i'm not looking for all the features of the E80 on the E60, yet you keep calling me
a whiner who wants that. i don't care a hoot about most
of the features on the E80. I never stop hearing you whine
however about the lack of a chord sequencer.

if you don't mind the weight, good for you. others do, and
they are entitled to make their own tradeoffs without your
condescending attitude. They are also entitled to you not
constantly whining about others' critiques of equipment
and calling them whiners instead.

------------------
Miami Mo

I must admit, Mo, I don't understand why you are so pi**ed at me... I don't manufacturer keyboards at all. You got a beef, it's with EVERY single manufacturer out there.

Yamaha's last 76 note arranger weighed 45 lb. Roland's current one weighs the same. The new Audya will be 37 lb. The Ketron SD-1 weighs 36 lb.. NONE of these arrangers have speakers... The Wersi Abacus has only 61 notes, but has speakers, weighs 77 lb.!

I am simply trying to point out a few of the reasons that I think they have for making them that way. But maybe they are just doing it to bust your back? I don't think so...

As I said, WHEN they make a 30 lb. 76-er that feels as good as my G70, I'll be first on board and no complaints. So I AM agreeing with you... But in the meantime, thank God, I am still physically fit enough to move one around solo, when I need to. When my strength eventually goes, I will probably be in the same boat, and will HAVE to use whatever exists then at that weight point (or lighter). But by then, it will probably be a laptop (or rack computer) and a lightweight master controller.

There are well documented problems with many ultra light weight 88's and a few 76's. Seems that, unless you support them very evenly (think a table top), the cases flex sufficiently to make for 'sticky' notes and unreliable triggering. It's just basic physics. The case that supports the keybed has to have sufficient strength to not flex, and unless you are willing to pay the high price of carbon composites, that case (so far) has to be made of something that weighs more. They build bridges out of steel and pre-stressed concrete, these days, not wood.

I'm sorry, Mo, but YOU are the one complaining about a trade-off, NOT ME! Roland make a perfectly good 76-er in the weight range you want. But YOU don't want to make the trade-off that incurs. I've already tried to help you with tips about using MIDI pedals to get back the FC-7 functionality, but that is too much bother, apparently. There are rack vocal processors with (IMO) far better harmony capabilities than most arrangers out there (Korg excluded), but that is too much bother, apparently, also. And if all you need is a mic input and some reverb, your mixer already does that!

I'm sorry, but IMO you have this thing turned around... I'm not ragging you about using light weight keyboards. Have at it, and all the best! YOU seem to be the one upset about anyone satisfied with the way things ARE, rather than your utopian vision of fly-weight keyboards with no compromise. Don't shoot the messenger. Take it up with Roland, and Yamaha, and Ketron, and Wersi, and Korg, and Lionstracs (have I missed anyone?).

Final words (and they ARE my last on this topic ), I am utterly fed up of Ian, and Donny chiming in on a subject they have NO place commenting on.... When you have a 76-er, feel free to join in. I remind you once again, Yamaha's last 76 note arranger weighed 45 lb. and had no speakers!

Let's just stick to comparing apples to apples will you... Or I'm going to start posting info on those cute little 2 octave, 4 lb. controller keyboards the laptop jockeys LOVE, and ask why you are playing those 25 lb. behemoths!

Diki,

I will comment on ANY topic I wish, irregardless if you like it or not.

Even though YOUR posts are becoming tedious and repetitive with this weight issue(not to mention the chord sequencer)I do enjoy and respect the opinions of the other members.

Now, please stop acting as moderator, and, I must say I agree with Mo...your attitude is becoming very condescending towards people who don't agree with you.

You seem to think that if something doesn't move, you need a bigger hammer and more blows...but, combine those tactics with the aforementioned attitude, and all that will be accomplished is that your opinions will lose more weight...oh darn, there's that word again.



Ian


------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

gentlemen my comment about squeezing more juice from this argument re size/weight and quality was just British humor/sarcasm !!

Please drop it and the personal comments too. We are grown ups right?

slightly off topic. I went to sound control in Birmingham today and saw the yamaha XS7. Nice nice board Way too many sounds to audition in one afternoon ! anyway i wanted to tell you about the E80. I spent the best part of about an hour with the instrument specifically trying to get a better sound from the onboard speakers as this one , like the previous two i have played at differnt shops sounded just as poor as the others . I did my best but to no avail. Sound Control have a new policy now whereby Roland reps actually come and work within the store advising staf and customers concerning the function of their products , employed by and paid for by Roland direct.

The Roland product specialist saw me playing the instrument and i guess shaking my head so he came over. He asked my what was up and i told him. He started to edit he EQ on the keyboard and after 10 minutes ...started to shake his head too ! The only effect the adjustments he made were having an affect on the superior piano sound i was using NOT THE ACCOMPANIMENT ! He specifically went into a function to alter the bass and he turned the dial and the numbers on the screen incremented but the sound did not change. Neither for the drums . He said that he would have to call me back in when he had figured out what was wrong but he did say that neither myself nor himself had been doing anything wrong . Both of us agreed that this could be another OS glitch and would have to be looked into. As this was the 3rd E80 that i have played i am starting to suspect that it is in fact an OS glitch just as i felt the same way when the G70 came out but everyone hat bought one was telling us that it was perfect. There seems to be a definate problem with the E80 speaker system and its not just my ears.

Bebop if you are reading this and you have your E80 now please test this and tell us what you have found in terms of the speaker quality. I have never owned a roland instrument but was seriously tempted by the E80. For me built in speakers is essential which is why i have the PA1X. Compared to the PA1X the speakers in the Roland sound like one of those tinny personal steros. I have high hopes for the E80 but Roland have to sort this problem out. Is there a general problem with quality control at Roland as i am struggling to believe that they released the G70 (original OS ) and now the E80 (poor internal speakers ) after any thorough quality control.

Buy a PA1x Pro and fill all the vacant internal space with little helium balloons.

Sorry Cgiles , your post went right over my head. I own a PA1X already. Amnot going to sell it. Just want a second toy.

Well, I guess if you gotta explain it, it probably wasn't that funny.

chas

Good one!....

Can't find any room in my 3k for them...if I could, I wouldn't even need a stand.


Ian



------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Look, comment away all you like, but please don't pretend that what you are saying is relevant. We WERE talking about 76 note keyboards....

Listen, Ian, YOU are the one with the signature (added after some exchanges about weight in the past) that constantly (every single post!) bring up your OPINION (not facts) about weight and performance. I don't feel the need to constantly bait others with my opinion. Or should I get a signature that brings it up constantly too...? No, you would probably deride me for doing that (or say that it is tedious). Once again, apparently YOU are the only one that can do what you berate other people for doing.

Remember, you too are constantly chiming in on any post whatsoever that brings up the weight issue. So does that make you tedious and repetitive also, or is it just OTHER people that are that?

And, just for once, do you have any comment other than 'My PSR3k weighs 25 lb.' about 76 note keyboards? Or are you just a stuck note?

The only ones hammering the weight issue are the people that complain about how heavy current arrangers (especially some 76 note ones) are. As I said, every single manufacturer makes them heavier than SOME people want. Why shoot the messenger? The REALLY sad part is I keep trying to tell you I agree with you, and no-one wants to read THAT part! When they bring out a 76 that feels the same and has the same functionality as the G70, I will HAPPILY buy it. Until then complaining at my fellow SZ members that DO use a heavier arranger seems like a little misplaced anger. Write to Roland, write to Korg, write to everybody.
________________________________________________________

Ian, I am sorry that you find my posts tedious and repetitive. I won't (unless provoked) publicly say what I think of yours, but as neither of us are moderators here, I guess I will continue to do exactly what you do too.... I'll post whatever I like, whenever I like, and if you don't want to read it, well, there's always the 'back' button.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 05-18-2007).]

Yeah, I kinda like it...thanks for noticing.

Ian

------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

I received the E 80 yesterday after noon at the music store. It is in a huge bulky box and weighed 62 pounds. I am 75 years old but I carried it into my house and into the studio and up on the rack. So it is heavy, so what. It has the heavy sound and plays like a heavy board.
The sound system is the finest I have heard in nearly forever. No problems for me and it is unbeliveably loud. I can work my clubhouse without amps with this board.
I have to tell you that I purchased the personal Demo Keyboard from the Roland District Sales Manager that spent three hours demoing the board in the music store for me and Jann.
I think it is for this reason that the board is superfine right out of the box.It is already peaked and tweeked. I went through a lot of styles last night and I was totally blown away by most of those I Played.
I only have one complaint on this board at this time, and I have reported it already. I can't find a way to keep the split at my favorite of F sharpe 3 as it continues to revert back to the default of C4 every time you change a variation or style. Maybe I just haven't yet found the way to save my change. Anybody know about this.
I have owned most all of the major keyboards since 1970 starting with the Hohner Clavinet and the first Lowry portable keyboards. I feel this is the finest of the lot and makes my T2 seem more like a toy.
I will write more after I have spent more time with this NICE AND HEAVY keyboard. I love it.Check it out dudes
Best to all,
Bebop

Wow, Bebop...you sound like a kid on Christmas morning!

Congratulations....and may you reap maximum enjoyment from your new instrument.

Ian

------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Congrats, BEBOP.

I think you have already found the Roland-arranger.com site, where there is a program there called Session Manager that can apply that global split point to all your UPGs and OTSs. Plus many, many other useful functions that Roland neglected to add to the OS... This software truly adds capabilities to the E- and G- series that the keyboard is incapable by itself (User Custom Tones, for instance!).

It would be VERY useful to many that are trying out the E80, and scratching their heads over the speakers' sound (some like it, some HATE it) if you could post the details about the Mastering Effects and Speaker Simulator presets that the Roland rep put into it. That way, they could input those numbers into a store E80 anywhere, and see if it improves the sound in their opinion, too.

If you like, there's a way (I think it is described in the manual) to capture a screenshot of the E80's screen. Just call up the relevant pages, take the screenshots, and post them at Roland-Arranger.com. Don't forget, if there are two pages or more of either of these functions, take a snapshot of BOTH pages, please.

Then pop back here with a link to those screenshots, and maybe we can find out why opinions vary so widely.

I think one of the things that some testers (and even Roland reps, by the look of it!) may get confused by is that, unlike the G70, there are TWO final Mastering Effects sections. One for the Keyboard Parts, one for the Song and Style Parts. So if you are adjusting the wrong one for what you are listening to, you are not going to hear any difference!

And then add the Speaker Sim 'EQ' (or whatever it does!) and it is easy to see how things could get confusing...

Sometimes, I get the impression that TOO much EQ and compression control is a bad thing. There are just WAY too many ways to screw up what might actually be a great basic sound. I just wish Roland had the ears (and the balls!) to find what actually DOES sound the best, and set it in stone! After all, if you REALLY disagree with them, there's still your mixer to correct the EQ to your taste.

Few ever complained about the final 'sound' of the G1000, and that had NO master EQ or any compression at all. They just made sure it sounded it's best before they set the styles and Tones in stone. And you still had (and still do on the E and G-series) per-Part EQ to spot correct tones WITHIN a mix. I wish Roland (and most of the others, too) had the ears and the confidence to still do that.

TOO much EQ choices and Compression decisions (and a 3 band compressor is a mighty dangerous thing in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use one well) is just a cop-out by a company that doesn't have the resolve to say 'THIS is the best sound this arranger makes...'

With all due respect, I will "EQ" and compress to an accoustic space. To have a "one sound fits all" approach assumes that the keyboard will always stay in the same acoustic space (ie. a studio, home, or permanent club gig) and that that space was determined at the factory.

Obviously, one can fine-tune the overall sound with the external mixer but that's hardly the solution to problem individual sounds.

You're correct that TOO much control in the wrong hands can be dangerous, but for a professional, that should not be a problem. I say, the more control, the better. You can always choose not to use it.

chas

I completely agree, chas. In 'professional' hands, all those options are a wonderful thing. The trouble starts when they fall into the 'wrong' hands.

For one thing, I completely agree that these Mastering tools should be used mainly for space and crowd condition corrections. But all too often, in lesser hands, they are simply used to often drastically change the overall sound of an arranger, and then never adjusted. Even OOTB they come with all options turned on, and a pretty drastic set of comp and EQ applied. Squeeze anything to death, and put a big 'smiley' on the EQ, and you can quickly ruin the basic sound of even the best arrangers.

And most professionals already have EQ's and compressors fro their PA's and studios. But putting these sonic hand grenades in the hands of newbies and home players is a recipe for confusion and dissatisfaction. I think I'm reading a fair bit of evidence for this, don't you agree?

I agree with you guys..Using the Mastering tools and also the Harmonist compression can be a problem with someone that does not really understand what's happening..

I am pleased that these options are on the G70 and E80.

I can appreciate the Mastering EQ and compression control from the keyboard ..to fine tune or adjust to a room...

Maybe it would be nice if we all suggested some points or corrections of the G70 and E80...maybe saving time and effort of others looking to resolve a problem..

BeBop ..your question of saving the split..all of the panel settings are saved in a user program..I write my main user and assign it to start at boot up..

Also another tip for the Harmonist...set the input and sustain levels higher[harmonist/effects/edit] I keep the input at 93 and raise the sustain level to 18..Also defeat the vibrato on your voice if your own vibrato is good..Also turn compression off.

Maybe we can start a new post with these type of suggestions..Even you Yamaha guys can do the same....

you really only need EQ to match sound to spaces you play in, not compression, live rigs and engineers i have worked with only really use compression if they have a quiet vocalist..what they used a LOT was limiters..too much compression in music today imo, squeezes the life out of everything and all you have left is just sound with not a lot of definition..

Great tips Fran.....I agree this is the kind of stuff we should be talking about on an arranger KB forum......I admit being guilty of straying many times off topic into BS oblivion as do many others....but this kind of on hands suggestions is what makes people play better & understand how to get the fullest enjoyment out of their keyboards. So ask & answer away no matter what KB your using... shall we?

Dennis , I agree, I do not like to use compression in any live situation..

yep! totally agree

"And most professionals already have EQ's and compressors fro their PA's and studios. But putting these sonic hand grenades in the hands of newbies and home players is a recipe for confusion and dissatisfaction. I think I'm reading a fair bit of evidence for this, don't you agree?"

Careful Diki. I certainly dont agree. I am a home and church player and certainly not a professional but i know when something on a keyboard is working or not .

The speaker modeling function on the 3 E80's i tried did not improve the sound. I had a roland product specialist right next to me today and he messed around with the EQ settings and in particular the drums and bass and got the same results as me. I guess he was not professional enough or maybe he was a home player moonlighting as a Roland product specialist ?????

Many of the members here are not able to actually audition these instruments in real life. I am in the fortunate position to do just that. Do you think its just bad luck that 3 out of 3 Roland E80 come shipped with poorly EQ'd speaker systems ? I wish others cold hear what i have heard because there would be no doubt.

The point that i am making is that maybe, just maybe the e80 speaker system needs an OS upgrade ???? I remember having similar discussions with G70 owners when it first came out and how the G70 was such a powerful tool that once tweaked would sound better than anything else on the planet. And then we had this BS thread about how some instruments needed skill to use and that home players prefered the out the box sound whilst the "pros" wanted to personalise The sound and people tweaked and tweaked and tweaked until somebody realised how much efort they had put into an instrument that could not sound well after ALL that tweaking because it NEEDED AN OS UPGRADE.

I said the same thing then that i am saying now, Roland need to manufacture a product ready for the market and should not expect its customers to finish the job that they started and pay for the priviledge !!

This feelslike dejavu

[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 05-18-2007).]

[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 05-18-2007).]

Deja vu all over again?

I am afraid my only tip for mastering tools is 'TURN THEM OFF!' If the arranger sounds like cr*p without them, that's not a good sign....

Look, I do mastering work at my home studio and also at a large commercial facility in my home town. They have a Manley Slam! (mastering edition), Manley Massive Passive (mastering edition) and hardware Waves L2 Ultramaximizer limiter (DON'T confuse it with the software L2's!) through B&W monitors in their mastering chain, at home I mostly rely on UAD plugs and some Waves things (C4, mostly) through Mackie HR824's to do it here.

And the one thing I have learned is, if the mix isn't any good to start with, you are just turd polishing (to use an industry expression!). In other words, the mastering part of the process is just there to 'glue' the mix together a little bit, and help raise it's level to the absurdly high RMS levels that modern CDs are mastered at (don't get me started on this one! ). It isn't supposed to be 'corrective' at all if it can be helped.

So I say to all of you out there with sonic problems, or auditioning new gear... TURN OFF THE MASTERING SECTION...! Listen to the arranger without any of that stuff messing with the basic sound. Of course, be sure you are listening to it through good speakers (we'll deal with getting the on-board speakers to sound better later), or top quality headphones (try Grado's... to die for!). Make sure that your ears are rested, you are calm and focused, and bring along a CD of a well recorded piece of music that is appropriate to the style you are going to play, and that you are very familiar with.

Try to get the store (if you are in one) to jack this CD through the same speakers you are listening to the arranger on (if it has RCA inputs, even better, just connect the CD to the arranger). Now start to listen and compare...

Do you feel the arranger feels full and balanced compared to the CD? A CD of you playing your LAST arranger is ideal, if you have one. Now you can truly see how much better (or not!) this new toy is compared to the old one, and objectively, too.

Now listen to the balance of the arranger. Does any one thing sound out of whack, or is it EVERYTHING? One of the commonest problems many have with EQ is that they will use Mastering EQ to fix a problem with just the drums, or the Bass, or the piano sound. That's what the per-part EQ is for! If you use the Master EQ, you stick that curve on everything, whether it needs it or not. Mostly, NOT....

So..... I think you are beginning to see what I'm getting at, See whether the arranger sounds good and un-hyped without the Master tools. The styles come next....

WITHOUT the mastering EQ and compression, do they sound consistent? Are they similar in volume? Are some bass-y, and some thin? Here lies yet another problem with the Mastering Tools. Are the styles developed with the tools on or off? And are they all developed by the same team, with the same settings? No way to tell....

But if there ARE some wild swings in balance, that's a probable culprit. But let's assume for right now that they are reasonably consistent.

So now you are listening to the arranger, through hopefully a flat PA system, or good headphones. Now turn on the CD. Any big changes in EQ? More bassy, less bassy, too much middle? Hopefully not, but if so (and the styles sound balanced), NOW is the time to use a LITTLE EQ to try and match them a bit closer. OK, let's assume that's done....

FINALLY, now is the time to turn off the PA and change over to the Internal speakers.... Take a few minute's ear break. Now come back and listen to the speakers. Do you hear any noticeable EQ shifts? Now is the time to apply the separate speaker EQ (if it has one) and try to get back to roughly the same tone balance as before, but always consider that you are going to be very lucky to get the depth of bass out of little speakers. Warm it up a bit, if necessary, but don't overdo it. You can't get a quart into a pint jar....

Hopefully, by now, you have a much better idea of what the arranger's TRUE sound is like, and the CD comparison will help you avoid the sin of over-hyping the EQ.

I'll deal with compression later, but suffice it to say, once again, if the arranger needs it just to sound good, that's a bad sign. They ARE useful in low to moderate amounts to stop you from breaking up the Internal speakers, but never at the cost of pumping or breathing (read an article on compression if you don't know those terms).

Sorry to all the pros and knowledgeable amateurs that already know all this stuff, but I am surprised at how many times I've read a post, or listened to a user demo, and immediately heard that the EQ and comp settings are WAY hyped, and fighting the sound. Just keep saying to yourself... Less is more..... Less is more..... Less is more....

Diki. I hear your experience and respect it but if i had to do all that to tell whether the internal sound i was hearing was decent i would not buy the instrument.I dont buy keyboards often and certainly dont keep them for less than 5 years so when i purchase i need to be confident that i have the right tool for me. I have listened to many many keyboards in shopsover the years.I am a salesmans worst nightmare because i only buy when i am good and ready. If the instrument does not sound good through decent headphones and other keyboards in the same shop do then i wont buy it .If it is sold with internal speakers and they sound poor i might still buy it if through external amplification it can be made to sound great but for my purposes good internal speakers are a deal maker or breaker. The E80 sounds great through headphones. It sounds great through external speakers. But so far in my limited experience it does not sound great through its internal speakers and when the sales people cant get it to sound good and the pruduct specialist cant either it gives me concern about its speakers as i am sure it would anyone else including you . If Roland want to continue to make the purchaseing decision this hard for its customers then so be it.

When i bought my Pax i was sold on the sound from the internal speakers. I was at fairdeal music in birmingham England and a guy was demoing the pax for another customer.I kept looking for the amps around the shop floor and could not find them. Then i realised the sound was coming from the keyboards own speakers. Thats all i needed to hear.

I am happy that Bebop is getting great sound from his E80 and i think your sugestion that he get screen prints of the EQ seting is excelent. You can be assured that i will print them off and take them to Sound control at my earliest convenince and i will be happy to report back on my findings. I like the instrument a lot but this is getting silly.

I completely agree with everything you say, spalding. I, too am the salesman's nightmare!

I am in NO way 'defending' the E80. I have never even touched one, and have NO opinion about the speaker's sound, other than to say 'opinions vary'. I am just trying to suggest ways to track down WHY....

I, too am experienced enough to get a good idea of the sound without all that detail. But some here are not, and there definitely seems to be a large gap between those that understand what the Mastering section can do, and those that don't (I DID apologize to you 'experts', remember?).

It's abuse, and I include what I consider to be VERY aggressive, default factory presets in that abuse, can very often make the difference between a great basic sound, and a squashed, hissy, flat, dynamically unresponsive sound. And often, just turning off the EQ and especially compression can at least restore the instrument to something that anyone other than marketing 'experts' (got to make it loud, got to make it POP! Got to hype it up to sell!) might actually enjoy.

Now, I'm not sure all that is going to affect the E80's speakers. But I can tell you for sure that the day I turned off all the mastering compression, my G70 started to sound much more dynamic and live. Now that I have per-part EQ (and per-drum within a kit), the master EQ is just for room correction only. Want more bass? EQ the bass! Want more highs on the cymbals? EQ the cymbals...!

Don't boost the bass on the piano and the highs on the strings (which is what a master EQ would do) to get what you want...