At least in comparison to workstations.

If the answer is the usual standard reason, can’t the manufacturers do any thing to increase the arranger market to the more modern crowd?

Or are they just contented in making a keyboard for a small market and thus creating a reason for them pricing it high and not having it displayed in stores for persons to demo.

I do not agree 100%, here is why, you have Arrangers Low end starting at $170.00 USD, you have the Casios CTK and WK, then the Yamahas PSRE403, DGX series, YPGs and PSR.
I know that this boards are not in the same boat of the worksations but then again, there is a price point that arrangers start, and the worstations are far from this range.
In the Mid range is what I think is a little soft, some YPGs, from Roland GW7 and the EXR, E and from Korg the PA50and the higher end the PA-80 and PA1Xs, The E80-60-G70 from ROland, the Gem Genesys, and then the Ketrons SD1-5 and XD series.
So, we have arranger keyboards from less than $200.00 up to a $4500.00 range.
Now, the worksations that start around $1,000.00 the Korg TR and the new Roland JUNO G, the Yamaha's MO's are a little over that. The Korg PA 50 and Yamaha PSR 1500 are in the One grand range.
In the high end, they are almost even, a Fantom X8 around 3 grand, and so is the Motif ES8, the Tritons just got a price drop (Extreme 6,7,8)and the Korg Oasis start around $6,000.00-8,000.00(61-88keys), so this one is much higher than any PA1X Pro, G70 or Tyros2, perhaps you can get at least 2 High end arrangers for the price of one OASIS.
The arrangers that are a lot more than average, are the Wersi's, and those again, are a little hard to find-audition live, at least here in the Phoenix, Az area.

Most arrangers cost more because of the inherent cost of composing the styles, voices, and arrangements. Also, there is an onboard vocal harmonizer, hard disk recorder, large color screens, etc. etc. which does not exist in most workstations.

------------------
Al Giordano
www.al-giordano.com

Tyros 2, Yamaha P-250, Korg Triton Extreme 76, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums

My bad.

I should have specified that I was more looking at the mid – to high-end arrangers with the best sounds and features.


Regarding the fact that arranger manufacturers have the task of creating styles, having a vocal harmonizer, hard disk recording and so on, are they really providing more than what a high-end workstation is providing?

I mean workstations have hundreds of rhythms/loops/arpeggios, they have audio recording (Roland), and they have lots of sounds, and so on.

If you were to do a comparison between keyboards from the same manufacturer (workstation and arrangers), it would be very informative.

Roland G-70 and Roland Fantum x7
Yamaha Motif ES and Yamaha Tyros 1
Korg PA1x Pro and Korg Triton Studio 76

I don't think the high price is justifiable based on the boards hardware (not at all) Especially when you consider the "hardware" of a synth.

I think the high price tag is based on (targeted market), and the obvious--consumers are "willing" to pay these prices and continue to do so. Hell why would they drop them if people are buying them at the current prices If everyone said the hell with it, and decided not to upgrade when the new models came out, we can get the prices to drop. We have the power to say we're not paying that. Of course I know we have to take into consideration arranger sales in the US vs Overseas

Take a hard look at the spec list of a Motif, Fantom, and Triton. The 61 key models sell for less than a pro arranger, but there "are" features on these boards that if the makers want--can use for high profits just as they do in the pro-arranger market.

Again think about the targeted market--If Yamaha jumped the price of a Motif ES6 up to $3,500--Holy S--t!!! I would be first in line to watch that "b--tch fest"

Some may disagree, but it's true, if we continue to pay the high price, they have no reason to drop the price. Even if the sales are lower here, it's not like they're hurting--we're just a small part of their market. They make a killing in sales overseas, low US sales don't put them in the welfare line.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-28-2006).]

double post ...

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 07-28-2006).]

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 07-28-2006).]

While I admittedly have no experience with a 'workstation' vs an arranger, to me it seems analogus to wanting a fireplace and buying the bricks and doing it yourself, or buying the bricks and hiring a bricklayer to do it for you ... If you want the styles 'pre-made' you have to pay for it ...
t.

I think that my reply to this would be a question. Almost everything in this world costs to much....(here's the question) How much to much is it? You already have a base of 1800-2000 dollars (US) for a workstation, if you begin to add the additional features of a high end arranger the answer may be easy to understand. If we are only talking about a $1000 dollar difference, I believe that you can break that down a little easier. I wont bother to go through all the items that an arranger may have in it, (I think that everyone already knows). $1000 over the 3-5 years (DNJ not included) you will probably own it, make it only $17-$28 more a month to own something that may in fact help you be a better entertainer. For me I really like to be able to just sit down at a moments notice and have the full accompaniment that an arranger can provide. In summary the buyer of any arranger has to first count the cost and consider the features that they are getting with the particular arranger that they are purchasing. I gave up on workstations several years ago. They was far to much effort required for me to really be happy with them. Like I said I like the ability to play music with full accompaniment without all the extra work.

Regards,

Dennis L. Almond
aka...TwoNuts


[This message has been edited by TwoNuts (edited 07-28-2006).]

Hi:

Arrangers comparation to workstations, is like comparing SUV with Sports cars....they are very diferent and for diferent purpose.
Worksations are design for a musician that either work for a band/home or in a studio work, you can layer secuencing, looping and sampling, depending the kind of project. The similarities you mention:

Example Korg Triton EXm in the "grooves" or almost style like that worksations have, do not have an intro/s, variations, fill ins, and/or endings, that is why is very diferent. So, you do not have "control" over this, to recall a voice (strings as an example), in the worksations is much likely that you have to call a Bank and then a "patch" number....
In the Arrangers (Korg PA1X Pro), the voices (programs or patches) are group in families of the sound, Piano, E,piano, Strings, etc.....so you do NOT have to know a band and patch number.

One great diference for a songwriter/arranger, is that you can make a midi file of an original song in matter of few minutes, a similar task in a worksation may take a few hours/days depending how familiar the user is with that particular model brand.
I use this analagy: Let's say you have a transportation company, now the diference would be if:
1.- Are you transporting Rocks, sand, material contruction.
or
2.- People. It requires a very diferent type of vehicule.

You have to deside what are you going to do, and then get the apropiate tranportation.

I believe this topic has been discussed. As far as I remember the conclusion was that with an arranger you could start making music right after you open the box - it is simple and intuitive (speaking of Yam). Synths, on the other hand, are far too complex. You are required to make patterns, sequences... Maybe synths sell bad and thats why their price is low. I dont know.

George

squeak_D has covered what I was about to say. Having worked in Manufacture you look at what a similar product from a competitor is priced at plus how much you think the customer would be happy to pay. The initial costing comes into this equation but the answer at the end of the day is make as much profit as you can.
Who would ever have thought people would paying £3000 for a Tyros.

What other purchase can you make for $1000 and use to make money - with little to no talent?

zuki

See $1,000 (in my opinion) is very a reasonable purchase--given the product can compete. However, $3,000 and up--well we all have our own opinion on that, but hey that's business, and capitolism for ya. If you can get people to pay over 3 grand, why stop

Hell they could sell a $1,000 PSR-1500 for $3,000 if they wanted to--It's in the advertising. Why do you think big advertising companies make so much money. All tricks of the trade. The only thing that amazes me is how the government isn't coming down on the countless companies distorting the facts--and intentionally (and obviously) misleading consumers, yet no one is nailing them for it. It's all about profits.., why bust them if they're just telling little lies Doing that may put them out of business, and results in lost tax revenue. The trend is clearly "don't get involved until someone either gets hurt or dies" (sad, sad).
Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-28-2006).]

I'M THINKING ... A SHOVEL


D.

Has anyone priced a decent sax trumpet or trombone lately.
In comparison, the keyboards are a steal, and you can play more than 1 note at a time and you can sound like a sax, and a trumpet, and a trombone, and all combined, etc, etc...

That's where I think we may be looking at it differently. I don't believe that an arranger is a workstation with additional features. At least not yet. The workstation has features that an arranger does not have and an arranger has features that a workstation does not have. So if a workstation cost $1800, an arranger should not cost twice that amount. Just because an arranger has styles (and those styles may be valuable to some persons) is no reason for arrangers to cost so much. The arpeggios and loops are just as valuable to workstation users as styles are to arranger players.And remember that a workstation has features that an arranger does not have for example, advance sequencer, and semi advance sampler. Arrangers and workstations are both comparable and thus there should not be that big price difference. Yes arguably they are for different uses, but that still does not justify the big price difference. See I think that arranger manufacturers are going around in circles. They are making arrangers for the people whom they think would be willing to pay the high price (as shown by comments in this thread) which is a very small percentage of the keyboard market. Then they say that the arranger market is very small so that is why they have to have these high prices. I don't know why they are not trying to expand their market. To me the two barriers to more people buying arrangers is the price and the lack of modern styles and sounds. But then again they probably don't want to do any thing to affect workstation sales. And, if people are willing to pay the high price for arrangers, they will just do it until they can not do it any more.

Agree. See This topic

Posted by: to the genesys

---------------------------------------------
The workstation has features that an arranger does not have and an arranger has features that a workstation does not have. So if a workstation cost $1800, an arranger should not cost twice that amount. Just because an arranger has styles (and those styles may be valuable to some persons) is no reason for arrangers to cost so much. The arpeggios and loops are just as valuable to workstation users as styles are to arranger players.And remember that a workstation has features that an arranger does not have for example, advance sequencer, and semi advance sampler. Arrangers and workstations are both comparable and thus there should not be that big price difference. Yes arguably they are for different uses, but that still does not justify the big price difference.
---------------------------------------------

EXACTLY! Why should the features on an arranger not found on a synth or vise versa justify such a HUGE price difference. Our preset patterns, chord templates (memories), full blown samplers, ect are just as important to us as styles are to arranger players.

So really what jsutifies the major price difference. What makes the arranger so much more special in that it needs a higher price? Arranger players needs and functions are important to them as the functions on synths are to synth players.

I stills say it's targeted market. If you pay the high price, and continue to do it, they have NO reason to drop them to make them more affordable.

Granted there are the high price synths, but mark my words..., Let Roland, Yamaha, and Korg jack the price of their current 61 key flagships up to $3,500 and see what happens..... We wouldn't accept that at all and fight them, yet pro arranger players are so willing to accept the $3,000 and up price tag on their models--for 61 keys none the less too. I think it should upset pro arranger owners. You should feel like they're sticking it to you because they are. They're using your targeted groups to get a higher profit. That's not right.

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-28-2006).]

Interesting toptic "to the genesys".

Regarding price I have this to say for whatever it's worth.

Manufacturers price their products a lot of times on the "supply and demand" principle. Arrangers are coming into their own here in the States and have already been established in Europe for many years. So they are finally getting recognition and they are becoming a hot item for pro's and hobbyists alike. When you finally get major artists and other high level professional figures buying high end Arrangers for their Studios or jobs and they are getting rave reviews in MI magazines and they are now starting to become more and more an option from musicians that are of the traditional mindset. And consequently they are selling more and more of them here in the States and even more so in Europe.

For instance, let's take the Tyros. Yamaha originally priced the Tyros at $2,499 at all major MI stores throughout the U.S.A. when it first came out.

When Yamaha saw that the Tyros was popular with consumers and they started selling briskly it didn't take Yamaha long to raise the price to $2,999. That's $500 more than they were getting which is quite a substantial increase. The Tyros stayed at that price for years and only until the Tyros2 debuted did Yamaha {temporarily} reduce the price of the Tyros back down to $2,499. But I noticed recently the price is now back up to $2,999 at Guitar Center. Why?? Well one reason is GC doesn't stock the Tyros2 to compete with the Tyros for sales. So Yamaha has conveniently raised the price again because the Tyros is probably selling just as well at $2,999 as it did at $2,499. And since the Tyros is a hot item on the market right now, Yamaha is taking advantage of this and has marked it back up because of: you guessed it , - "supply and demand" and people are willing to pay the price.

If there is a big demand for ANY consumer product the manufacturer more often than not raises the price - sometimes 'considerably'.

If high-end Arrangers were not hot items in the market we would see their prices drop much lower than they are right now in my opinion. Case in point: 3 1/2 years ago the Tyros came out which in my opinion was the first time an Arranger's sounds were considered up to snuff with the PRO level Workstations in the eyes of many people. And when they started selling like hot cakes in the States and in Europe Yamaha suddenly realized the gold mine they were sitting on and quickly raised the price accordingly as I stated earlier.

It's not so much the cost of hardware or styles as some have suggested but the fact that these new high end Arrangers are becoming hot items to the public and many don't seem to mind shelling out more and more bucks for them. The manufacturers are probably bemusing to themselves that the saying: "If you build them they will come" is fascinatingly becoming a reality for them with the like of the Tyros/2, etc. And they are seizing the opportunity by pricing these new high end (or even mid-range) Arrangers through the roof. And as long as people are willing to pay these outlandishly high prices for these companies high end or mid-range Arranger products they will gladly continue to oblige you and price them at the same high levels thank you.

My 2¢

Best regards,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 07-28-2006).]

Mike excellent donation of your 2 cents I agree with everything you said. Isn't it crazy how the price dropped on the original T1, then shot back up again, and people are willing to pay it.

Those prices can and will come down, but it's going to take the action of the "consumers". The funny thing is it won't even cost us money All consumers have to do, is choose not to upgrade to the newer models that will clearly be priced just the same or higher. Seriously where do you draw the line?

There are so many here making a good living performing with PSR-2000's, 3000's, Tyros 1's, Ketron SD1's and so on. When the Tyros 3 comes out are those performing with these current models going to lose business? If you're rocking the house with a PSR-3000, will the lack of a Tyros 2 make you just "shake" the house and not "rock" it?

Squeak



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 07-28-2006).]

I think that the option to buy an expensive arranger should be left to the person buying the expensive arranger. I dropped $3483.00 for a Tyros 2, the T2 Speaker system and the Tyros soft case. I did it because I wanted to upgrade from my four year old PSR 9000. I am very happy with the purchase I made. I don't intend to buy another keyboard for another three or four years again. The cost is the cost. If its acceptable to me I'll buy it, if not...I wont!
Of course it expensive, but thats life.
I didn't start out buying the most expensive arranger. I have worked my way up to it. I have no problem spending the money on what I feel is a keyboard that I deserve to have.

Dennis