I know you have it a few weeks looks like a super KB.....I cant wait to get my hands on it.......how are you getting around it so far?

.



[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 12-20-2006).]

In about 10 days, we wil release the new Linuxsampler 4.0, with 128 Midi channels integrated in the MS OS.

Now I'm working to create/edit the big Soundbank: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/LSampler4.jpg
and then I'm ready to release the new ISO 1.4.
Just some days more patience...

Fran......The open architecture OS really makes me excited versus the old school try, buy, play, & sell repetitive scenario we all know all too well.....the future is wide open....cant wait...see ya soon!

Domenick exciting stuff keep it coming baby!

Good Luck.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-09-2006).]

Fran I look forward to your review. The MediaStation is really the future of keyboards. Its layout and design should set a new standard for the arranger market.

Squeak

Sounds interesting.
I Can not wait for your full and unbias review.


Question, would the mediastation recognize rootless chord voicings? For example, if I play F C E would it play a F Major 7 or a D minor 7?

Fran, are you abandoning your Roland role? OMG, I thought that day would never come.

.

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 12-20-2006).]

Congtratualations on your new keyboard Fran.
Wonderful to hear you're enjoying it.

best wishes
Rikki

Yippppeeee... I get to play the MS tommmorow at Frans studio...should be fun!

Hey Fran,
Glad you are enjoying your MS. You will have seen I advertised mine for sale last week but thank fully I didn't sell!! There were some thinigs I wanted/needed which were not available at the time but Dominic has sent out a couple of updates this last week which have sorted out the problems and now I am a happy MS user - no longer for sale!
I guess I was a little impetuous but thanks to other MS users I now have what I need from the MS and am able to use live and it sounds just great ...
LS4 comes out next week so looking forward to that - and then its onwards and upwards!
Regards
Mark

Hello Mark
That�s the beauty of software based boards; you don�t have to change the board to get new features. (I know I wouldn�t go back to the restricted hardware system)
Enjoy

Bill

Hello Dnj and Fran
I will send in the next days to Fran the new MS update and the new GIGA library too.
When Fran have then installed the all new setup, go there and test the new GIGA orchestra 8Gb section, the new 4 big GIGA pianos 4Gb too and let me know i sounds amazing.
We are working now to remap the all new styles under giga format only and then we can discuss again about this styles arguments...
Remember that Fran have ONLY one MS with the 24Mb GM soundsbank and his mixer board is the first hardware release, half analog and half digital.
Now the all MS are only FULL digital 24bit with NO NOISE at all.
Mark made some audi test too and he can tell you that the MS with FULL open audio outs is totally MUTED.
Try with any your analog embedded keyboard and MAX volume out and tell me if you have some noise in the background in your PS system....

Domenic .....Thanx for the info I will definitely try the MS again once Fran installs the new software for sure.....
I will try the features you describe also.....keep up the great work its an never ending improvement with the MS which is definitely the way to go in the future.

Is there a place we can try the Media Station on the east coast?

Also how does it compare style wise to Ketron?

Is it stable?

I am interested in getting the SD5. but I will sell my Tyros 2 and get the Mediastation if it sounds the part

Where can I listen to some styles? any demos online?

Also any discounts for a paesano? Father is from Abruzzi, mom is from Sicily, been there about a dozen times///


thanks

Here's Lionstracs demo page for the styles......
http://www.lionstracs.com/site/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=37&catid=37&Itemid=59

Still not convinced...... but perhaps a more professional player could coax better from the styles. There are many weird 'jumps' in the styles and volume problems (but I think most of those come from the live playing on the top of the style).

I wish that Domenik would go to the Tyros2 site, or the E80 demo page, and take a long HARD listen to those demos. They are VERY well mixed and played, and show off their arranger's capabilities to the highest extent possible. To demonstrate just how good the styles can be on the Mediastation, I would not rest until the Mediastation's demos were AT LEAST as good. It is hard to back up a claim that the Mediastation is so much better than T2 when the factory demos are as lame as that. On paper is one thing, but I guarantee that everyone at SZ judges an arranger more by the online demos than by paper specs.

I am NOT saying the Mediastation is not capable of blowing all other arrangers out of the water, but if the factory demos can't do it, how can you convince us of the fact? Spend more money, Domenik.... Hire the best arranger player in Europe, let him tweak the Mediastation to sound as good as your promises. Then watch the orders come flooding in.....

The updates that Dominik has bought out recently have certainly continue to improve the Mediastation - but the styles are - in my opinion - not usable - I know he is working on new ones and these can't come out soon enough ...New styles and some better sounds and we are set...I am sure the updates will continue to come and the MS will get better and better..
Mark!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jonesyboy:
[b]Hey Fran,
Glad you are enjoying your MS. You will have seen I advertised mine for sale last week but thank fully I didn't sell!! There were some thinigs I wanted/needed which were not available at the time but Dominic has sent out a couple of updates this last week which have sorted out the problems and now I am a happy MS user - no longer for sale!
I guess I was a little impetuous but thanks to other MS users I now have what I need from the MS and am able to use live and it sounds just great ...




[This message has been edited by jonesyboy (edited 12-15-2006).]

So much self-contradiction by the Mediastation users!

Is it 'unusable' or does it 'sound great'?

I believe that the Mediastation, in trying to be BOTH arranger and workstation, is still succeeding primarily in the workstation end, and has a long way to go as an arranger (at least from what I hear in the demos). As has been said many times on this forum, the vast majority of arranger users want two things..... tons of really good styles, and no need for extensive 'tweaking' OOTB.

Despite it's many stellar features, in these two categories the Mediastation still seems to fall flat. Far better to think of this keyboard as a workstation with a potentially good arranger section than to commit a lot of money on it in the hope that it will immediately be your primary arranger. From all accounts, you've got a fairly uphill road to travel before it is going to wow a T2 user with just it's arranger capabilities OOTB.....

As always, everyone says something is just around the corner that will fix everything, but they've been saying this since it came out. I don't buy an arranger for what it might potentially do, I'm interested in what I get for my money the day I take it out of the box. And I am afraid that is probably the attitude of most buyers.

Domenik, give the new 'features' a rest. Spend EVERYTHING you have on style and sound development for a year, THEN go back and start adding OS improvements. Your bottom line will thank you for this...

Diki,
My view is simple - the styles are very poor - need new styles very quickly - the sounds of the B4 and the pianos are awesome ...thats it in summary...
New features are good but new "needed" features are more important than the nice to haves..
Styles, good sounds other than B4 and Piano, are fort me the prioritya nd I know Dominic is working hard towards delivering these...
Mark

Thanks, Mark, for the clarification. I think it kind of confirms what I thought I heard in the factory demos.....

But, once again (as I so often seem to find myself misunderstood despite trying to be clear!) I repeat - I am probably going to end up with one of these, or something similar, as soon as the dust has settled. Potentially, it is the future of keyboards, but for me I think it is not the present.

When it sounds better OOTB than the competition, it will be a no-brainer. Until then I repeat - Domenik, LISTEN to what most arranger users want and provide it, and they will beat a path to your door.....

Diki
You are right - the MS is the future which is why I am sticking with it - I have been unhappy from day 1 with certain aspects (Stles and some sounds) but very impressed with the way Dominic is working with the plans for the future. We are just about to get a new OS update, more sounds and as I said he is working on about another 300 styles - so OOTB is not currently on par - but soon it will not only be on par but leave the competition chasing...
I hope my view is now a little clearer.. I enjoy my MS but I just want more from it and then it will be excellent.
Regards
Mark!

nothing 60 lbs is going to be the future of arranger kb's.
cut the weight in half--now there's the future.

------------------
Miami Mo

The Wersi Abacus is heavier than the Mediastation and in my opinion Wersi represents the finest arranger/workstation on the market today. When Lionstracs gets the new ISO finished it will be closer in performance to the Wersi in operation but Wersi still has the others beat hands down when it comes to the wonderful factory sounds.

If you base what you buy just from being light weight you aren't going to have many options to choose from and certainly not the best keyboards available. I've yet to see any serious musician limit what he or she will buy because its too heavy, especially if it offers better sound, more features, and superior build quality. My Korg Oasys weighs a ton but that didn't stop me from buying one. If it works for what I need it to do why should I care if its heavy? That's what roadies are for. My Fairlight CMI III weighs almost 200 pounds and cost me more than a small house back in the 1980's but I still bought one. Why? Because it sounds amazing and it's built like a tank!

I think its funny that some people will pay a lot of money for cheap plastic keyboards like the PSR-3000 and Tyros 2 and expect them to hold up under the rigors of everyday use. The PSR-3000 isn't even a professional product designed for extensive daily use, its a home keyboard. Sure the PSR sounds OK, but next to my Wersi it sounds like poop.

The Mediastation sounds pretty damned good and has an incredible dynamic range. In fact its dynamic response is much broader than the Korg Oasys which sounds quite amazing. I'd not call it unusable by any stretch but if you want to make that assumption based on an web MP3 demo, by all means that's your prerogative.

Most people are forgetting one thing about open ended systems, they are open ended for a reason. The end user can load and play whatever sounds, styles, VST's, or audio files they need or want to. While I do believe companies like Lionstracs can benefit by providing a larger stock library with their products, its not necessary for them to do so. The end user can easily achieve what they want with the Mediastation by simply loading new sounds, styles, and audio files in.... hardly a difficult task.

I have lots of GIGA samples and other VST's I use with my open ended keyboards (Wersi, Mediastation) and if I need more styles, sounds, etc., I'll buy them. I didn't get an OAS style system and expect the manufacturer to give me thousands of dollars worth of samples for free. You wouldn't buy a car and expect to get gas for free for the rest of your life. Do you expect computer manufacturers to give you for free all the programs you want to use with your new computer system? I'll bet not. Domenik and Lionstracs are giving MS users sounds, styles, VST's, and software for free so the user can utilize them, edit them, or choose not to use them if they are so inclined. That's pretty fair considering no other manufacturer to date has provided that type of support. Even the new software in my Korg Oasys came with a demo Plug-In that I had to spend another $250 to get authorized. Hardly free but still worth the money.

Every time I load a new OS, new samples, or new styles in my system it's like having a new keyboard all over again. Try that with an embedded keyboard!

FRAN, I WANT TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT
THE MEDIASTATION, BUT MY EMAIL COMES BACK
REJECTED FROM YOUR NNI ADDRESS. CAN YOU EMAIL ME
WITH YOURS AND/OR PHONE? THANKS.

------------------
Miami Mo

The end user can easily achieve what they want with the Mediastation by simply loading new sounds, styles, and audio files in.... hardly a difficult task. Thats a matter of opinion..loading styles is not that easy to someone who has never done it and I dont think it is too much to ask a manufacturer to supply at least a small amount of QUALITY styles...is it?

Well, I am a very serious musician but I'm not going to risk
another hernia or aggravate my back or wear myself out on gigs in smaller venues, which is what I work, without
benefit of a roadie. Not that I compare myself with these,
but Caruso sounds better on old 78's than most of the singers today on cd's, and Charlie Parker still blows all
of his followers away w/stuff played on borrowed cheap saxes and recorded on a wire recorder with a mic in the
bathroom. So i know I can sound really good on any decent piece of equipment, and i've been using "plastic" Korg and Technics kb's for 6 years without a single problem of any kind..not one, not ever. Sure I'd love to have the best sound/style/nav available, but not at the
price of knocking myself out physically..but that's for each
to decide. I see folksinger/guitarists set up 2 JBL Eon15's
on tall stands w/monitor, huge heavy mixers, etc that take
a lot of time and effort to set up/down and load into van,
for gigs in a tiny bar. Is their sound "bigger"? yes. Better?
God no, worse, because they think that replaces their
musical ability. A great performer will sound better than them on a cheap guitar, pignose amp and $20 mic. Will he sound even better on the big system? Yes, but not that much. Law of Diminishing returns always applies. Another great piece of advoice from many wise men: Travel Light!


------------------
Miami Mo

I'm "serious" enough to have earned a pretty nice living for some 30+ years, and I refuse to consider a heavy arranger keyboard. Knock yourself (and your back) out though, if that's what you want to do.
Unfortunately, roadies are not in my budget.
But that doesn't make me not serious.
Happy Holidays to all!
DonM

This thread is starting to show the range of usage arrangers are finally getting, and the wide range of users that use them!

Ensnareyou has the luxury of a seemingly limitless supply of money (at least from his keyboard list.... a Fairlight, an Oasys, a Mediastation AND a Wersi Abacus, and probably everything else on the planet!) and never has to lift a keyboard himself...... congratulations!

Unfortunately, the rest of us live in the real world, where even affording ONE of those keyboards is a stretch on our budgets at best, and roadies are only available if your wife bears them and you raise them as weightlifters!

Taking financial advice from a billionaire is only valid if you have the resources to play in his league! $1000 dollars invested doesn't have the same power as $100M...

So...... in the REAL world, 60-70lb keyboards HURT...... Even 45lb ones are work!

Also, ensnareyou gets our posts mixed up.... 'unusable' (from jonesboy's post, not mine!) refers to the styles, not the sounds, or the audio quality of Domenik's demos.

'Fess up, ensnareyou..... do you actually ever GIG with the Mediastation, or is it just a studio toy you never have to move, or rely on for a show (by itself)? Under those circumstances, it's easy to imagine that not sounding very good (style-wise) OOTB isn't very important. But once again, in the REAL world (as shown by the majority opinion of the members here) the styles and OOTB sound and ease of use are the primary concerns of arranger players.

Most of us rely on ONE arranger, at most two, to gig with. If that arranger's styles are stiff, limited in choice, and generally translations from other arrangers, rather than tailored specifically to the strengths of the onboard sound-set, it's a tough choice for us to pick over arrangers like the T2 and PA800, etc., that come loaded with high quality, well balanced styles.

Add in the fact that the 'open-ended' arrangers are not the only ones that can add in new styles, and sometimes get OS improvements that add completely new features to our supposedly 'closed' systems. Plus several of them have samplers, to add to the sound-set (albeit with glacial load-up times!)

It IS refreshing to have a viewpoint on this topic completely devoid of concerns for price, weight, and usability or of the effort to correct that usability, but in the REAL world, most of us care about stuff like that. Maybe one day I will be in the same situation, but until then......

Doesnt it bother you that the manaufacturer of a product that is already on the market being sold as a market ready machine cant put up demos of the instrument using well balanced styles using Giga samples ? If it is too much trouble to balance the imported styles or demo the "openness using giga" through its demo styles or cant be bothered to, does that bode well for potential purchasers ?

Jonesey Boy i have been rushed off my feet trying to get ready for Christmas . Can i call you first thing in the new year to come check out the MS ?

Spalding..... couldn't agree more.

Everything about this machine screams 'potential' rather than 'actual'.

Like I said, Domenik, quit adding new features to the OS (unless that is in a 'potential' state, too) and voice this thing to better a T2 OOTB, and you've got MY money......

Sure - anytime...you have my number.
Al the best

I've worked hard to get all the gear that I have and nothing was ever given to me. If my priorities are different from yours and I feel investing lots of money into my gear is worth while, its what I do.

I don't gig but I do travel extensively with my gear on recording sessions. I constantly lug around lots of gear and not once have I ever ruled out buying a piece of equipment due to its weight. FYI... I carry my own gear around, I don't have roadies. If I did need them I'd most certainly hire them.

Perhaps your sound live can be accomplished with a PSR3000, Tyros II, PA1X or some other arranger but mine can't. If anyone ever comes out with a lightweight keyboard that rivals my existing gear I'd buy it but so far that hasn't happened yet. Of course YMMV.

Hey guys..
I really don't understand why you there have to discuss about the MS weight.
The Mediastation X-76 is weight only 26Kg.

The Korg PAX pro weight 19.5Kg
The GEM Genesis S weight 27Kg
The Roland E-80 weight 22.5Kg
The Korg OASYS 76 weight about 32Kg
A lot of other professional keyboards weight much more than the Mediastation and I really don't see what is the problem from 5-6Kg more than other keyboards.

Remember that the T2 is only a home keyboard, full bulding in plastic, short and NOT weighted 61 keys keyboard.
Like a lot of other this range keyboards are developed only for home gig's.
You will never see one professional musician in one big band playing with this keyboards, they will use only big shape and robust professional keyboards.

So..better stop with the weight arguments because I really don't care and I will not listen.
MAYBE when the Korg Oasys, Wersi made the same keyboard weight 19Kg...then we think about too to design again the mediastation and put ONLY plastic parts.

Fortunally the big orders come only from the Oriental area and they don't care about the weight BUT of the features.
They finally are happy to LOAD how MANY Mb/Gb of Oriental sounds that they need without limits.
Still the last new Oriental keyboard give they 20-30 new oriental mono sounds ( because is always the same...limited to load just some Mb of sounds and SLOW time loading untill the sounds is ready...just see under T2) we continue have more orders chance and slow slow we are covering the other brands too.

About the sounds:
T2 have only a fixed 504 map sounds and then is over.
Before end this year our Oriental sounds/styles developer have ready the cloned 504 GIGA Tyros 2 sounds too and then we can CLOSE the argument IF the MS can play the all T2 sounds too.

MS right now have a basic GM soundbank GIGA library of 1620 sounds + the about 700 GM sounds + about the 300 Synth patch sounds + the 40 basic B4 Patch presets...i have to continue?
Of course not all of this sounds are full amazing but of course more than the 70% are really good and you still can have the possibility to choose the only sounds that you like OR just load new sounds too.
After you add the more 504 T2 sounds I think finally you are happy.
Maybe later they will clone some more keyboards too.
I will suggest my MS clients to buy this: http://www.extranslator.com/
then you are able to clone all what you want, just with some euro...

About the styles:
I agree too that we don't have so nice styles like the T2 and of cousre no another keyboard like the Korg or Roland have the same nice styles of the T2 too.

After we will release the update ISO 1.4 with the new Linuxsampler 4 GM/GS we will remap again the all styles under giga format and release the other 300 styles too.
Untill this update we will not editing new styles because then we will make the double work for nothing.
Soon we will release the new Arranger editor features too, integrated with the new LS 4.
If you then will downloading the cloned T2 soundbank, we will include the Midi Mapper soundbank file LSCP linked to the T2 library, in this way you are able to play the all T2 styles too with the same T2 sounds.

From today I have already another 22 MS OS updates that you there don't have, because need the new LS 4. We will release all this new features when the ISO 1.4 is ready to download, just some more days patience.

Untill will come available this all updates..you have the totally freedom to criticize the MS but please..try to find VALID arguments and not stuff like the weight...
Freedom mean that you still are FREE to buy the keyboard that you much like, we will NOT force anynoe to buy the MS if you are not interested.
We don't need to contine posting new audio+video demos to convince you there when you are not interested.
We have to give you more balanced styles, this we know and for sure you will receive it soon and ALWAYS for FREE.

Anyway, good arranger or not, like or not, but the MS with the all features and tools included in the OS, still remain the TOP worldwide keyboard and not another professional keyboards can compete.
For me the ONLY keyb advanced can be the OASYS, but when in the MS we open this: http://www.lionstracs.com/data/gui/ardur.png
with ton of GIGA sounds and VST...
and then this: http://www.lionstracs.com/data/images/cinelerra.jpg
is automatically killled out.

An open keyboard is only expensive in the short term, in the long term it is cheap. (Example below)

Tyros Open and Close.

Close.
Tyros 2 comes out, trade in Tyros for new board, (Expensive) Tyros 3 comes out, trade in Tyros 2 for new board. (Expensive)

Open.
Tyros 2 comes out, purchase software (And if required hardware parts) and your Tyros becomes Tyros 2, (Cheap) Tyros 3 comes out, purchase software (And if required hardware parts) and your Tyros 2 becomes Tyros 3. (Cheap)

Styles are very personal, so it is unlikely any manufacture can please everybody all of the time, but by using style conversion software, users can pick and choose, the downside to this is that most conversion is done on a separate computer and then tweaked once loaded in the keyboard, however if you have an open keyboard the computer is built in, and so you can do it all in one go.

To fully understand an open keyboard, you really need to own one or play one for a good length of time. However once you do, you will realise just how limited hardware based boards are.

Good thread this

Bill

First things first....... Ensnareyou, I never said anyone gave you any money for your rig, I am sure you got it the old fashioned way (hard work and lots of talent!) and in no way intended to denigrate your achievement. Too much reading between the lines.... I try to do my best to say only EXACTLY what I mean. Sorry if you took it any other way.....

I kind of thought that you weren't extolling the Mediastation for it's arranger capabilities, but it's GIGA and VST playback potential, and from what you've said (no gigs, just recording, with the help of several other keyboards too) it seems I was close to the truth. No implied criticism, just an acknowledgment that you use your keyboards a little differently to most of us here.

For those of us that use an arranger for gigging, and as part of our recording workflow, the option exists to use computers for the VST and GIGA sounds, rather than needing an expensive keyboard to achieve what our studio rigs are already capable of, so for us, I guess the question remains - why a Mediastation if we already have VST capabilities?

The answer for most of us would probably be 'If it was better than our current arranger.....' which, until Domenik nails the styles, sadly can't be said. But you (and Domenik) are right, change is on it's way, and I look forward to it.

I am curious...... if you DID gig live, solo (like so many here do) what of your equipment list would you take for a gig, on the understanding that you would have to hump it all yourself? Once again, don't read between the lines, I'm just curious, that's all!

As to the weight thing..... I completely understand your point of view, I lug around the 20.5kg G70 in a full flight case myself. It's what I need, so no choice. But 33kg (a single manual Abacus) plus a flight case is getting into two strong men country there, and few local solo gigs pay the money to afford a two-man roady crew! It's not a B3, but it could still do some damage to us over 50 guys!

Domenik...... I don't believe I ever criticized the SOUND of the Mediastation. I am only too aware of the great sound you can get with GIGA and VST. But to use it as an ARRANGER, the styles have to rock at least as hard as the sound-set, otherwise it's a fancy workstation. I am looking forward to hearing the new styles, with VST and GIGA instruments included (have you got BFD or DFH2 working in the MS?)..... But I repeat again (and I'm TRYING to be constructive, here.... I want to see your success as much as you do), you HAVE to use the T2's and E80's and PA1X's demos as a benchmark for the quality of your website 's demos. And, by the way, I think the E80 AND the PA1X (and my G70!) ALL have style demos that better your current web demos. This isn't JUST about the T2.....

They ARE your competition, no matter what you would like..... If a potential arranger buyer doesn't get a MS, these are what they will get instead. So please, find a brilliant player to fully show off the capabilities of the MS rather than leaving it up to the listener to IMAGINE the potential. Your sales department will thank you for it....!

Untill will come available this all updates..you have the totally freedom to criticize the MS but please..try to find VALID arguments and not stuff like the weight...
"Freedom mean that you still are FREE to buy the keyboard that you much like, we will NOT force anynoe to buy the MS if you are not interested.
We don't need to contine posting new audio+video demos to convince you there when you are not interested.
We have to give you more balanced styles, this we know and for sure you will receive it soon and ALWAYS for FREE"

You just dont get it Dom do you. The comments here are from people interested in buying the MS but they simply want to ensure the instrument is ready for their needs. It blatantly is not right now.After which update in the future will it be ???

Abacus a few weeks ago posted a demo of a cloned T2 style and it was amazing. Abacus is not trying to sell wersi keyboards for them, (although he i doing a darned good job of it )he has no vested interest in wersi sales but he has listened to the feedback on this forum and literally closed the deal for wersi (as far as i am concerned) simply by providing what we as musicians want.Good styles well balanced and great sounds using an "open system".He has shown not just what the instrument might possibly do in the future but its capabilities now. If you cant take the positive and very sensible feed back from this forum to improve your product then i wish you the best of luck with your oriental sales because clearly you are struggling here.

You don't care and won't listen? that will get you a lot of customers, yeah right. I don't want to fight with you, man, because i may be on the verge of trading for an Ms X76 and will need to have a good relationship. But your attitude is not going to make you the king of keyboard sales, that's for sure. It's just the opposite of what you are saying about home keyboards. Sure the big boys who have roadies and such will use the biggest and best keyboards available, why not? For all the rest of us pros, those big keyboards become the "home' studio units, and the so-called "home" units like T2 etc. become the units we take to the gigs, because we don't have roadies or want to break our bodies down just because something
is "better"..we know we can make good music on "plastic".
Even if i get your MS X76, I will be taking a new E60 or pa800 or in the interim my old Korg is35 or Technics Kn2600 to my gigs, and use yours at home, unless there
is a very very special event I want to pull out all stops for and get some friends to help me with the big load. All the
units you compare yours to fall into the same problem for us, it's not that yours is heavier than theirs, it's that they are all too heavy for our gigging use, and that represents a whole lot more customers for you than the ones you are
gunning for now. If you don't care about that, fine. It's amazing how lightweight plastic becomes denigrated by all the purveyors of steel and wood units. If a kb is well constructed electronically, it doesn't matter 99% of the time that the shell is plastic. Plastic can be very well constructed as well as poorly built, and can hold up for many many years of normal use. After i had my is35 for a while, i bought a similar i30 on ebay, on the reports that it had some superior features to the is35, and it was better constructed from metal. Well, i sold it 2 weeks later, because it was so much heavier, and the few slightly better sounds were not enough to overcome that. That plastic is35 still serves me well, and has held up through lots of hard knocks. Please understand, none of this is intended as a criticism of the Mediastation, which sounds like a wonderful instrument i would like to have. it's just
that there will always be limitations on your sales if you
are 60 lbs, whereas if you were 30 you would have a product that would be more usable for 90% of pros. So that's why i said it can not be the future at 60lbs, but it can be something wonderful nevertheless. All the best.



------------------
Miami Mo

Thank you Dom.
Now I will never had to bother reading remarks about the MS again, because it will never be on my list of gear to consider. Not just because it is too heavy, but also because the designer refuses to listen to potential customers.
DonM

.




[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 12-20-2006).]

I cant for the life of me understand why the weight of the MS is even an issue here. You want a solidly built keyboard, then darn-it "expect some added weight".

How many people do you see lugging around a 76 key Yamaha Motif ES or 76 key Korg Triton??? They're everywhere, and many are lugging the 88 key models around. These are around 40lbs and up, yet they're getting used "everywhere"! It's not a shock to the owners about the weight. These are solid road worthy synths, and that added weight is due to durability.

Dom's MS has a little weight to it because he doesn't build it like crap-and it's as simple as that. The unit has hi-quality parts. You can't have semi-weighted keys and not expect some added weight. You can't expect it to be built like a tank, and have a cheap plastic PSR style body with cheap buttons, ect. Come on folks be reasonable.

You may feel that Dom's position on weight is a little harsh, but tell me one keyboard company where the top dog to the company can be reached so easily? Tell me one keyboard company where you can reach to top man and get answers from him personally????????? I understand his position and agree with him. Why should the current weight be an issue, when the added weight is due to "durability", and his 76 note arranger's weight is comparable to 76 key synth/workstations?

**as far as styles are concerned.., even Dom agreed with a few of you, yet keep in mind the number of new styles on the way. Keep in mind the constant OS updates to add new features. Hell lets see a show of hands from everyone here who bought an arranger from Yamaha, Korg, Roland, or Ketron who got 100's upon 100's of FREE SOUNDS????, and ALL THOSE FREE SOFTWARE UPGRADES, not just to fix bugs, but to "drum roll" constantly add NEW features?

Domenik has listened to what end users and fellow Synthzone members have had to say about their wants, needs, criticisms, etc. I've never seen any other manufacturer have that kind of customer support. If you have a question, Domenik is only a phone call or e-mail away and he always responds in a timely fashion. When's the last time you spoke to the President of Yamaha, Korg, or Roland on the phone or in person? I'm guessing never! Domenik actually cares about what his customers have to say and he's doing great things with the Mediastations software updates. Personally I can't say the same for Yamaha who left me in the dust when I had a PSR9000 Pro and waited months for a software update that never materialized (not even to this day). What about Technics who dumped their entire keyboard line after many people shelled out thousands of dollars on a KN7000. That's not the type of support I want when I spend that kind of money on any product.

Domenik's not going to lower the Mediastations build quality just to make it lighter weight, that would be silly. Sure, some people may not want to carry around a heavy keyboard but if you are spending that kind of money on a high end arranger keyboard, do you seriously want it to be made cheaply? I know I don't.

I have to wonder... how many of the people who are actually criticizing the Mediastation have ever seen, heard, or played one in person? Seriously, how many of us are there that would or have truly shelled out $4,000.00-$10,000.00 dollars or more for a high end arranger or workstation keyboard? Not to sound rude but if you can't afford to buy the product or you would never spend that kind of money on any keyboard, let alone an open ended system, why even bitch about it?

"So..better stop with the weight arguments because I really don't care and I will not listen."
That's what he said. BUT, I shouldn't have generalized about his listening to customers.
I do appreciate the fact that Dom is accessible and that he is willing to work with his customers. Keep up the good work.
I am not arguing. I don't care how wonderful it is. It's not suitable for my purposes and I won't be carrying it around every day.
I can name half a dozen arrangers that do the job very well and weigh in the 30-pound range. I'm 63 years old and have a bad back, and I move my equipment sometimes 4-8 times a week. I don't really care for semi-weighted keys, because the progressing arthritis in my right hand is aggravated by the heavier keys.
I won't be using the arranger for studio work. The sounds the top arrangers come with are more than adequate to entertain the folks for which I play.
I'm not saying anyone else should be concerned about the weight, only that I am. So the MS is out of consideration for me, that's all. It is in good company because GEM, Wersi and the top Rolands are also out of the picture for me.
I do hope to hear Fran's MS one day, and I know it will sound great, but I won't be getting one.
As for happy faces, all one must do is follow the Golden Rule. In case we've forgotten, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Good advice regardless of its origin, or of which religion, if any, we observe. A lot of us haven't been following that at all, and I'm so dissappointed and so sad that I have trouble even reading the forum because I don't want to see what will happen next.
Go in peace and make beautiful music. Or at least danceable.
DonM



[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 12-17-2006).]

I can understand both sides here. I can appreciate the the MS is designed to meet a particular market so I have no criticism of that. Weighted keyboards provide a keyboard action that is demanded by the professional player. There is no way you can avoid the weight that this sort of action demands. I'd always choose to play a weighted action in a studio environment or live gig where keyboard weight is not an issue.

On the other hand I play in a live band myself and carrying my own gear in my car limits the type of keyboard I carry to a 61 key non-weighted action ( ie Motif 6 ) so I can also identify with DonM's sentiment. Neither choice is right or wrong but is simply determined by practicality. When I'm playing piano parts I really miss the weighted action. Then on the other hand when I'm playing organ and synth parts I do love playing a non weighted action. If I have a road crew carry and set up my keyboard rig then I'd definately have both actions available. Unfortunately I have to choose just one keyboard that I use for all parts. It is always a compromise.



[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 12-17-2006).]

I wasn't talking about Dom or how good he is or his kb is.
there is no need for anyone to defend him in terms of the weight issue, and i was not trying to criticize his fine kb. I was discussing weight as a factor in the utility of arranger kb's that most pros travel to gigs with. There are many musicians who are impervious to the weight issue, in fact some are outright masochists, bringing the biggest and loudest amd most complicated to set up sound systems to any and all gigs in the belief that it makes them sound better than they are, let alone lugging heavy keyboards around. but for the majority, weight is an issue, a real issue, one that cannot be swept aside by saying that's the trade-off for quality. The trend everywhere in all electronic devices is compactization, lighter weight--and higher utility. computers, cameras, phones, tv's etc. The trend in kb's seems to be going in the opposite direction, which i fail to understand, except that maybe it is felt that a heavy metal and wood case gives the person who spends that kind of money a feeling they are getting their money's worth. A plastic case can be made well and hold up to all but the most extreme abuse for long periods.
The quality of the electronics inside bears little relation
to weight. Weighted, even semi-weighted keys are for piano purists who will use the piano sound foremost and want the familiar action. Weighted keys interfere with playing most of the other kb sounds with the expression appropriate to the other instrument sounds, so should be offered as an option. What i am saying is that I find no
credence in the argument that it is necessary to have a
heavier kb to have a better kb, and that the manufacturers know this, but don't feel they can justify the prices without the legendary "thunk" of the door closing on
Cadillacs, back in the day when that was the standard.

------------------
Miami Mo

For me the weight is not an issue - sure it's heavy but when out gigging it is nice to have you have a solid well built bit of kit and not something that you have to treat with kit gloves. In terms of Dom listening to customers - this is one area that he MUST be defended on - he was recently in the UK and I spoke to him about some concerns I had and the next thing I knew he was at my front door...now THAT's customer service!!! I ca honestly say that the CEO of Yamaha,Korg or my beloved Roland has never done that!
Sure the MS has a long way to go - but given time this will be the instrument of the future...Dom does listen, he is working around the clock to provide a real quality instrument, and as the updates come out it does get better and better. I have been critical of it - much of the time because of the styles - but as for piano sounds and B4 there is currently nothing better (Yes I know personal opinion) ... and of course you can add to the MS whatever you like...vst's, Giga, and so on...
Enjoy and seasons greetings to one and all,
Mark!

Nigel, I never did play piano. Started on trumpet, then bass, then drums and guitar, then organ.
Maybe that's another reason I don't like the fully weighted keys.
I do wish there were more company people who were willing to work with the buyers. Dave McMahan, AJ and now Dominic seem to be exceptions to the rule. Of course they are all with smaller companies that don't have a lot of layers to go through and that helps.
Bedtime now.
DonM

Ok guys....
I will correct my last post about the weight and why I can NOT reduce drastically the MS weight.
Here the points:
1) we use the best Fatar Synthesizer keyboard TP/8SK 76 keys weighted and ONLY this keyboard part is about 12Kg. In our MS production we will never use the cheap plastic and short 61 keys models that are about 5Kg. We are not interested to produce Home keyboards but only professional workstation models.
2) With the 76 keys weighted model we MUST use a metal case, because the keyboard is to much lenght and deep, NEED a stable case structure OR when you pickup the MS in one side, the cover and bottom case are moving like a sandwich.
3)12 PCB boards, Mainboard, ATX powersupply, HD IDE 3.5, DVD drive, Display have one weight that we can NOT cut or reduce. Buy there one standard ATX OC case, install the all hardware and you have a basic weight too that you can NOT reduce.
4) FCC and CE approval: Inside the MS we have one standard ATX PC with the standard ATX power supply where the ALL boards MUST be fitted in a Metal Case with the same Ground. CPU over 800/1000 Mhz clock have a lot of interference, NEED a metal case or we never can have the FCC/CE approval. So..untill we will use a standard PC CPU we never can make the MS under a plastic case.

These are the BASIC reason why we can NOT make the MS less weight and that will never be a Home keyboard.
I think now you have understand our position and why I will not listen about this arguments because I don't have any chance to design it again under plastic parts.
Is a compromise..if you like the power you need change the case too.
This is like a car, if you have a 100Hp engine this need a 15 Inches wheels, but if you have a 400Hp engine you CANT use the 15 inches wheels you need to have the 19/20 inches wheels too, it mean to change the car case too, right? Can then have the same weight with the new bigger parts?
Is a compromise, try to understand me too.

The weight is going to be an issue for any arranger player. Its stupid, yes i said stupid for any arranger keyboard manufacturer to market an arranger keyboard to an arranger forum and then denigrate the instruments that the 90% of the members use (that as it happens sound better as arrangers than the one being marketed)simply because it is made out of light weight durable material. Which is precisiely why the members bought those instruments in the first place ! A professional instrument is an instrument suitable for the working musician (pro) that uses it. It has nothing to do with the material it is made from.

I get slightly ticked off when the MS's potential customers provide feedback to encourage sales and the product designer , marketer/sales person is down right rude to them. Thats all kinds of stupidity !!!

There are many current and perhaps future updates. Why is this marketed as a good thing ? Its good if the updates are to correct bugs but if this is the case then it means the instrument was not ready when sold in the first place. Its good if it increases functionality but not if the increased functions are not what the Market have been asking for. Just so that we are clear, the one functionality that THIS market has been asking for from the MS product is better and more balanced sounds using the giga that come shipped with the product.How many of the updates delivered and promised for the MS are specifically in response to users request to improve the arranger function as above ? I am told there is an update coming that will do this but it unfortunately means that the instrument IS NOT currently ready for the market it is currently being marketed to and i am yet to be convinced by either the manufacturer, their demos, or existing MS users that have come on this site that there is proof that it is. If i am wrong then fine i will accept some critiscism with good grace (something others could learn to do perhaps).

And for the record i am a member of the korg forum and regularly have send emails to Mr Trammoni who is one of the product managers for Korg. He listens , deals with technical queries , and responds to product suggestions and updates which is why in December this year the Pax1 range will recieve an upgrade basically providing almost all the increased functionality that the PA800 has for FREE within the limits of the PAX1 hardware. Thats means that the polyphony and sampling limits remain but pretty much everything else is updated.When we critiscise the PAX1 on that forum (and we do from time to time) we have never been insulted or talked down to from the Korg Product manager because he quite sensibly recognises that our suggestions/complaints are "buying signals" and we just need the reassurance that our concerns are recognised (hence the Pa800 is lighter than the PAX1 and it is very much a professional keyboard). Bare in mind that Korg is probably one of the largest keyboard manaufacturers in the world. They dont do everything perfectly but the one thing i need them to do well is produce a market ready instrument designed and able to meet the needs of the market it is aimed at.

Other smaller manufacturers could learn lessons from this.

I know that sometimes is DOMENIC sad, that you are speaking in this way with him or about MS.
I know he is trying to make the best keyboard ever.
I know that this is the best keyboard. I made "my styles, midi songs, mp3" and all is working really well.
Original styles need a little time to be better. But this is nothing compared to what is offer this keyboard.

I know that most of you will be in future proud users of open system keyboards.
In this moment is this market not as big as closed keyboard.

Yes, we all must thinking for future. I thing, we need together common language.

You all need a little patience and we will have complete different and better keyboards.

I know that open sys keyboards are the best future. You must find your true.


Best regards.

Magica Alfa

"I know that sometimes is DOMENIC sad, that you are speaking in this way with him or about MS.
I know he is trying to make the best keyboard ever.
I know that this is the best keyboard. I made "my styles, midi songs, mp3" and all is working really well.
Original styles need a little time to be better. But this is nothing compared to what is offer this keyboard"

This is the problem. Define what is the best keyboard ever ? Surely your market will tell you what that means , YOU CANT TELL THE MARKET WHAT IS THE BEST ! and the EXCELLENT feedback that Dom has had which he somehow takes offence to is telling him what the best keyboard ever should sound like, its functionality and its WEIGHT. For goodness sake listen Dom ! If the styles are poor and importing styleS is cumbersome and takes endless patience to tweak (remember G70?) what good is an open system to a "professonal" ie working arranger player ?

If/when the MS becomes ready as an arranger to compete with or better the existing closed system offerings then i will look at the MS again ( despite Doms best attempts at negative marketing )

Until then i have lost interest although i will check out jonesyboys MS if only to see how it compares with the PA800. I will wait till the next big update arrives that hopefully will address the isssues i have raised so far.

Chill - I understand what you are saying - but trust me I have gone through the emotions about the MS - I have the PA800/E80 and the MS all sitting side by side, and you can play the E80 and the PA800 quickly and easily - but sometimes you just need a little more and this is where the MS is good - ,forget the styles - we have already established that these are no good - Dom would probably agree with this - The B4 and Pianos are excellent - and as you can now load in anything you want to make the MS sound EXACTLY how YOU want it to sound..maybe all Dom is guilty of is his marketing approach -what he is actually trying to say and what he actually ends up saying sometimes can quite often be misunderstood...he is selling the added benefits of the MS where as alot of us want to know "what is it like OOTB" and once this is ok - what else can it do? I am now happy with my MS despite the fact that I dont play it at home - but then it wasn't bought for that reason - when I go out and play live the sounds that I can get from it (Piano and B4) fit the requirements that I have for it perfectly...you will ultimately see what the MS can do and make a judgement on what you want/need and buy the MS or not - as I said you are welcome anytime to come on over and view my MS and see what you think. Dom - better demo's on your web site, both audio and video would help potential buyers I guess - but as a MS user I would rather you did what you are doing and that is spending more time on updating the feature set than re recording audio and video demo's...
Mark



[This message has been edited by jonesyboy (edited 12-18-2006).]

Your explanation of why the MS weighs so much is perfectly valid and I appreciate your taking the time to explain it. I'm sure you will find a good market fot it, just not me.
Good luck with your project!
DonM

Thanks for that Mark. I guess all will be settled in my mind when i get to hear the instrument in person and i will write back on the forum and say honestly what i thought of the instrument. Have a great Christmas and i will catch you in the neww year. Be blessed !

All the best - have a good one!
Regards,
Mark

i'm not an engineer so I'm not qualified to evaluate what is or is not necessary weight-wise to build a quality kb, and i appreciate Domenik's explanation of why he feels he has no choice but to make it how he makes it. if that is what he considers most desirable and what his clients consider most desirable, so be it. However, the necessary weight is still a problem for most of us and will always be. That needs to be acknowledged, not disparaged, and to understand that in today's world of advanced plastics and miniaturization and electronic sophistication, a product that needs to be heavier to get better will always be just a niche product. Calling the competition "home" units is not only insulting, it is patently untrue. Also remember that most users are not on any forum, and i'll bet half of the working keyboard players out there are playing gigs on much older yammies and casios. I see a lot of casios on duo/trio gigs. The guys i know who use them sound great on them, because they have some good sounds and the players are veterans who are not into equipment research and not into spending money if their basic need is filled.
If those are therefore not "home" units, then certainly the mid to top of line yammies, rolands, korgs are not either.
As i said earlier on, it's the heavies that tend to stay in the home studio, so let's stop the "home" pissing contest, OK?

As I also said earlier, a good quality synth action is far more desirable in terms of expressing all of the sounds, organs included, than semi-weighted, so why not let the piano-action dependent guys have a heavier 88-model option or let them use a separate 88 of their choice as controller? why not save the rest of us the 7kg(15.4 lb!) difference? Also, can the power supply not be outside the unit on the cord as Yamaha has done until recently? That
saves a lot of liftweight. I'm sure that there could be other
modifications to convert from metal/wood to strong plastic materials. The bugaboos that are raised about "solid" vs "flimsy" construction are just marketing tools, I'm afraid..they have little real validity for most players.
People will always justify that their Hummer is built like a tank. That's great, if you need a tank. I don't.

------------------
Miami Mo

Just in case the Mediastation catches on fire right Domenick? Therefore, because of heat issues from the CPU the FCC/CE won't allow you to make it with a plastic casing is that correct Domenick? Or is it because of 'grounding' issues with all the hardware inside? But if it were simply about 'grounding' then you could theoretically just use a metal grounding "strip" instead of the whole case having to be metal. So I am assuming because of heat from the CPU and a possible fire risk from the heat or if something were to short and something melted or caught on fire that that is the reason you need the metal case i.e. so the fire could be better contained within the keyboard's metal casing if that (God forbid) ever happened.

About the question of making it lighter, how about using a lighter, stronger, metal composite? For instance, if the case now weighs, let's say, 30 lbs., by using a lighter, stronger metal composite (which would allow you to also cut down on the thickness of the metal) you could theoretically cut the weight of the case shell in half or thereabouts. 45 lbs. is a lot more appealing than lugging around the 60 lbs. that the Mediastation now weighs. >> Although the weight of the Mediastation is not listed on your web site but the discussion here leads me to put the weight at 60 lbs. for the 76 key version?? I would also imagine the 88 key version weighs substantially more than the 76 key version does too. Probably 80 lbs. plus + right? You limit your potential customers by making the Mediastation excessively heavy in my opinion Domenick.

When you think about it, the professional keyboardist is looking for the lightest solution too. Not just the home hobbyist or in the Studio. Whether on Stage, in the Studio, or just as a hobby, lighter is always better in my opinion. PS: You CAN make a quality constructed keyboard that doesn't need to weigh a ton. The companies that have figured that out are selling the most keyboards. Not the companies that make their keyboards tipping the scale at 60-90 lbs. plus +.

If you don't mind being a niche market then you can continue to make them as heavy as you want I suppose. If you want to reach a larger segment of the market then making the Mediastation lighter would go a long way in acheiving that goal in my opinion.

Best regards,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 12-18-2006).]

Any keyboard that costs beyond a few thousand dollars is going to be in a niche market. Over $5K and your market is even smaller. The fact is simple, few people will spend anywhere near $4K let alone over $5K for a keyboard. Just look at the Korg Oasys for example.. it lists for nearly $8,500 and its market is so small less than a few thousand units have been sold worldwide.

Even if Domenik could make the Mediastation lighter he'd probably not sell many (if any) more because most people are cheap and won't spend that kind of money on a keyboard.

I'm curious to know who on Synthzone owns a high end keyboard like the Wersi, Mediastation, or Oasys. I'll bet there aren't more than a handful of us on here who do.

I'm afraid that I have to weigh in (pun intended!) on the side of those of you that don't mind the weight, as long as it is within boundaries.... While miniaturization is the buzzword in consumer electronics, durability is a long forgotten goal. The thinking, I guess, is that long before a well-built product fails, it's electronic and functional superior will be on the market, so why bother making it durable? No-one uses 15-year old mobile phones, despite them still probably being functional.

But a keyboard.......? No-one expects to pay the same price as a reasonable upright piano (which will last, with care, for a hundred years) for a poorly built plastic arranger that is sonically amazing, but will need to be babied just to get a decade out of it. I want durability first and foremost, with weight only a secondary consideration (but a consideration nonetheless).....

As to Domenik's rant (and Magica Alfa's halting English)..... I've said it in the past, I'll say it again - To be a player on the international scene, firstly you need to be able to communicate fluently in English. Hire a native English speaking Marketing Director, someone that will try to communicate with your potential buyers in a less confrontational way. Domenik may indeed be the most responsive arranger developer in the world, but he is just that - a developer..... NOT a salesman!

Lionstracs may indeed have the most responsive tech support on the planet, but while you may NEVER get an opportunity to talk to the head of Roland, you will also NEVER hear him slamming his potential customer's priorities, and stating outright he has no care whatsoever for their concerns.

While Domenik may have a very personal vision for what is needed in an arranger (apparently everything including the kitchen sink!) his potential buyers have a more focussed set of wants and needs. First and foremost are killer styles. If those are not a priority (and everything that Lionstracs have done so far show it was not theirs), then I repeat, all you have is a Neko or Muse Receptor with half-a$$ed styles.

Let's face it, if all anyone needed was a GIGA piano and B4 (all anyone seems to talk about glowingly), they could use their current arranger and a laptop, at a fraction of the price of an MS..... No, there has to be more. Now that most professionals already have a home or studio computer rig capable of VST and GIGA, what would make us pay for something that we already have? The ability to use it at the gig? A laptop can do that.

No, Domenik wants to supply an all-in-one solution. But for it to be all-in-one, it not only has to SOUND better than our current arrangers, it also has to be as easy to operate, and have AT LEAST as good, if not better, styles.

You will always sell to a few visionaries who realize that, with a LOT of work, they can sound a lot better than they have before. But to crack the mass market and achieve corporate stability (let's face it, if Domenik doesn't sell enough of these things, kiss goodbye to constant updates), you are going to have to do what Korg, Roland, Ketron and Yamaha have done....... DO THE HARD WORK FOR US, then sell it.....

Ketron are a very good case in point...... not, perhaps the most cutting edge sounds, but the styles..... aaahhhhhh! Well balanced and composed styles, EXACTLY what their customers want. MS seems to have exactly the opposite priority.

Next time, Domenik, before you tell US that your keyboard is the best on the planet, have a listen to what WE are telling you........

"The fact is simple, few people will spend anywhere near $4K let alone over $5K for a keyboard. Just look at the Korg Oasys for example.. it lists for nearly $8,500 and its market is so small less than a few thousand units have been sold worldwide.

Even if Domenik could make the Mediastation lighter he'd probably not sell many (if any) more because most people are cheap and won't spend that kind of money on a keyboard. "

Most people are cheap ???? Do you know how insulting that statement is ? Did you go to the same charm school as Dom ?????

So i guess it makes perfect sense to market his expensive heavy niche instrument on this forum where the vast majority of the members have bought "cheap" lightweight mass produced mass market apeal instruments right ????

You are not helping Doms cause Ensnareyou

I wasn't trying to help Domeniks cause, I was stating what I know based upon being in music sales for the past 25 years. The "average" person will not spend over $2K let alone over $5k on a keyboard (Grand Piano's excepted). I'd love to see a show of hands on who owns a Wersi, Mediastation, Oasys, or any other high end workstation or keyboard that costs over $5K. As I said, I doubt there are more than a handful of us here on Synthzone who do.

Yes, when it comes to spending over $5K on a keyboard most people are cheap. The high end market has been declining for some time now. If that weren't true sales of high end keyboards would be equivalent to the lower priced ones and that simply isn't the case. Yamaha can sell thousands of PSR's not because they are the best sounding best made instrument, its because their cost isn't too high. If a PSR3000 was at a $4K price point few would sell.

Don't be insulted by what I wrote... if you think you can sell tens of thousands or more of keyboards that cost over $5K maybe you should go into the manufacturing business. If you predicate your future on selling high numbers of $5K+ keyboards chances are you will be out of business really fast. If it were that easy Yamaha, Roland, Ketron, and Korg would be doing it. Korg is the only major company to take a chance with a very high end instrument (Oasys) and so far its sales in the past two years have not exceeded a few thousand units (that's a fact).

I'm glad companies like Wersi and Lionstracs exist because they push the envelope of what is state of the art. Not everyone can afford these instruments and there is nothing wrong with that. Telling the manufacturer that they should cheapen their product by making it from plastic because they might sell more is simply stupid. Chances are if they did most people still wouldn't shell out the cash for one because of the price. If you said the same comments to Ferrari, Rolls Royce, or Bentley do you seriously think they would cheapen their cars just to sell a few more? No way!

My Goodness Folks! Dom couldn't have explained the reason for the weight any better.

I think what most aren't seeing here is WHAT the Mediastation really is... How many times have you seen someone post here about wanting to take their laptop with them on gigs, but don't want to haul that along with their keyboard. What the hell do you think the MediaStation is???

The MediaStation "IS" your keyboard and laptop in ONE unit. Break it down and what have with the MediaStation is simply that it is "literally" a computer with one hell of a bad ass midi controller attached and fine tuned to it. That's simply what it is.

Be pissed off if you want that someone said "homeplayer" when talking about some of these arrangers. Well like it or not, the makers THEMSELVES market these as " home keyboards". Yammie, Korg, and Roland make full synths as well as arrangers. Take Yamaha for example. Compare the construction quality of the Tyros 2 to a Motif ES-7. It's like night and day.

Sure Dom can add a lighter composite plastic body, but that doesn't always means it's cheaper to make. Anyone here own a pistol with a high impact composite frame??? Those aren't cheap. Seriously be realistic about this.

Dom clearly pointed out the FCC regulation, ect as for some of the UNAVOIDABLE weight issue. Geez compared to what we used to lug around, the MS's weight ESPECIALLY for a solidly built 76 key unit isn't nothing.

Also why should Dom go cheap on the body. Yammie and the others make cheap boards clearly marketed to the home player with flimsy plastic bodies. Dom makes a PROFESSIONAL keyboard, not directed at the home market. It is built to take the abuse of daily gigs. Now it's not to say that just because you have a keyboard marketed for home users it's a toy (we've all beaten that topic to death over the years so no use going into that crap again).

Dom I say ROCK ON my friend. You have clearly made a keyboard worthy of the money, and clearly lets the other makers know, they NEED to catch up because these open source keyboards ARE the future for keyboard players. Naturally those used to the typical "hardware" unit will be skeptical. It's like watching 8 track tape fade into where we are today with portable MP3 players. In time everyone will fall in line

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-18-2006).]

Is the MS the keyboard of the Future ?? It may very well be. The only problem with this is that I purchase something to use NOW. There is always that good chance that I will not be around to see the future. This means I desire top quality Styles and Voices NOW.
The only thing everyone seems to agree on is that the MS Styles leave a lot to be desired. If you are looking to purchase an Arranger keyboard (and this is an Arranger
keyboard forum) I assume you are looking for killer styles NOW. Just because new things will be available in the future does not mean they will be good or even usuable -
I remember when the Edsel came out as the car of the future.
I would love to have another option when buying a new Arranger - for this I need to try it out. Since there is no place for me to audition the MS I must depend on company Demos to give me an accurate picture of the benifits of the keyboard. I listened to the available MS Demos and if they are accurate and reflect the abilities of the MS, the future looks dim. Let's hear a Demo that does justice to the Keyboard.
One last thought - How many of you would marry an ugly woman (one without style) on the promise she will look better in the future.
Bruce

ferarri, mercedes and rolls royce have done their market research and analysed who their customers are and what they will pay for what they want, has Dom done this excercise because if he had he might decide to choose a different way to market his instrument.

As someone who has been involved in music sales for 25 years you will appreciate that you will not be selling to the "average person". I am a salesman and i have a profile of the customers that i choose to sell to. Average people probably would not fit my sales profile. Musicians are clearly not average people . Most of them will save their hard earned money to spend ���� if they believe the instrument that they want can fulfill all their needs and wants . Ask some of the guys on here that own 2-3 instruments currently or have spent in excess of �10000 over the last 5 yaers on new instrument purchases. They have the interst and they have the means but the product being offered does not meet their wants.

I know lots of musicians, producer etc who could afford the Oasys but have simply chosen not to purchase one because there is a concept that most "cheap" people ( especially in the UK)have understood and apply dailey. Its called value for money. These musicians are not cheap and they are not average people. They simply are not convinced that �8000 on one piece of equipment is value for money when they can work with far less costly equipment and get the same if not better results.

If i bought a ferrari the very least that i would expect is that i could drive it. If i bought an arranger keyboard, the very least i would expect is for it to have good balanced styles . afterall i bought it because it is supposed to be an arranger ...

If telling a manufacturer that in order to sell to us they need to make it lighter and actually functional as an arranger compared to its competitors is stupid then i guess ignoring the customer, being rude to them and telling them that they will not listen, denigrating the existing instruments and insinuating that they are not professional must be the hieght of intelligence ????

Last note , if Rolls Royce were short of customers in order to make a profit it would make whatever adjustments it had to to stay in business and yes that includes cheapening the price.Right now Rolls Royce has customers prepared to pay its prices for the percived value of the product. Dom certainly has potential customers willing to pay his prices but the value trade off is falling short.All businesses will not stay in business if it cannot adapt to the needs of the market.From what i can see nobody is beating down Lion Tracs doors for this product hence Doms attempts to encourage (in his unique way) more sales here.

Ensnaryou..... My fully loaded and accessorized K2500S, after all the options I installed (not to mention paying for them in 1995 dollars) easily gets close to (or exceeds!) the MS's current price. It is still on of my primary session tools.

However...... it did what it claimed to do on the day I bought it, and now does considerably more. I have always thought it worth spending good money for good value. Keyboards I have owned and used in the past also include expensive CS-80s, B3s, Oberheim Xpanders and OBxa's, not to mention grand and upright pianos and accordions.

But all these keyboards did one thing - they all did what they were claiming they did the day I bought them, not in some nebulous 'future' when we'll all drive around in air-cars.

I am prepared to admit (although, of course I haven't had the opportunity to play one - who has?) that the MS is probably already the best workstation on the planet. But that is not what Domenik is claiming.... the MS is supposedly the best ARRANGER on the planet. Now go listen to his style demos..... convinced? I didn't think so.

If you have the MS so dialed in, why not donate a few killer demos to Domenik...? Presumably he's not willing to PAY a professional demonstrator to make them (despite how many amazing arranger players there are in Europe), but if some of the more vocal supporters would post examples of kick-a$$ style demos, it might help out a lot. Just make sure you demo OOTB styles and sounds, so we know what we are buying....

How i tough before and always a lot of time...I think here im this forum I lose only my time and I can now understand why a lot of you guys don't like this forum too.

Fortunally in the oriental area they can develope his oriental styles alone and they don't need the western styles.

Untill they continue place order like this: http://www.lionstracs.com/data/images/100groove.jpg
I have first to listen what they want of features first, after they get what they want we are able to add our western features for make you there happy.

USA can be a big potentially area too, we know that but is really hard to try to change your dish where you had eating from many years.

I'm the first that gave the full respect of other brands too, i have to many friends there and they know me well too.
I told always that the T2 have the best styles, that Korg is the most advanced company and that I like much better the Roland design.
What I wrote before is that the MS still have the most advanced OS and Tools features that no another keyboard can have right now.
We can fix in better the styles, more balanced and what you all like, but for the others brands, develope the all OS and tools features that the MS have NOW, mean to waiting another 4-6 years.
And IF after 4-6 years they can arrival at the MS OS status, we still have another 4-6 years new advanced OS features.
That's all.
I'm bored now here...
have fun.
regards

My last post on this thread......

Domenik - you want to sell those kinds of numbers in the West, too? Just LISTEN to us.....

If it takes 4-6 years before your styles are BETTER than Korg, Yamaha etc., it won't matter how advanced the features and OS are! You may be bored with this thread - perhaps honest feedback from your target customers in the West doesn't excite you as much as a Linux sampler, but unless you WANT to get relegated to selling to the Orient exclusively, western styles, in large quantity and better than the current offerings from your competition (no matter how hard you deny you have any!) will be the only thing to prevent it.

Now, it's up to you...... You want MY money? Get moving!

Still bored?........... See ya!

.

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 12-20-2006).]

my last post on this thread, too. and piggybacking on what Diki said re STYLES,, same goes for WEIGHT issue, and it IS an issue, dammit, and it's not going to go away because you don't want it to be an issue. For those that want it all, have the bucks, and don't mind, or even prefer, having a sherman tank, keep offering your x-88 as your flagship model. But, as an alternative, make your x-76 with non-weighted yet quality keys, put the power supply
external, use a quality plastic case, or at least partially plastic. everything else can be the same quality, and you will lower the weight to 35 lbs, and you will be able to lower the price as well, and you will still have a great kb
that will sell many many many more units!

------------------
Miami Mo

35lbs!!! Come on. Did you not read Frans post? It already has a lighter metal body. Why in the world would any maker take a keyboard this size and one that requires a power source designed for computers and change that to a wall wart adapter?? That makes no sense.

Why should Dom pull what's clearly a TOP NOTCH keybed and replace that with a cheaper non-weighted keybed? You people seem to keep forgetting is that the MS is also a COMPUTER. It has parts that other arrangers don't have, so of course the weight is going up a bit.

Dom has built these units with top quality parts, and many issues with the weight were unavoidable (as Dom clearly pointed out). Yet people still find something to bitch about. Am I the only one that thinks this issue with weight (considering what the MediaStation is and what it's made of) to not be a serious issue? You can't ask for a keyboard to be built like a tank and then bitch and moan when "top quality" parts add a bit of weight.


I just think people bitch too much about keyboard weight on this forum. You want the thing to be light as a feather yet "durable". Our synths weigh more than the arrangers and you don't see synth players making such a big deal about it. We know the weight is due the units being built solid. I don't know, maybe the weight issue is really more of a concern to arranger players because of the market arrangers are intended for and geared towards.

Geez I remember when I was gigging and my set up at one time included a Yamaha DX-7, Korg Trinity, and my buddies classic Juno. Anyone who knows the DX-7 knows that board was rock solid, as well as the Juno's. I didn't give a crap about the weight. I gigged all week long with a setup like that. I could have cared less about the weight.

weight is not a bitching point, my friend--it's a real-world
parameter for most players. great that it's of no consequence to you, good for you, but please stop the in-your-face argumentative attitude, Ok? nobody is asking for Dom to put out a piece of crap, and nobody is saying what he is offering is not a great advance of the art. just saying make one sherman tank 88 for guys like you, and one 76 unweighted-key 35-lb plastic case version for guys like us. peace, brother.


------------------
Miami Mo

Well, it WAS going to be my last post but this bombshell..... OMG! Fran as a dealer! I will NEVER say anything about one of George's reviews again!

Firstly, Fran, calling YOUR potential customer's comments a 'joke' just proves that bad salesmanship is not just a European concern, apparently (I AM one of those likely to be able to afford a MS). A smileyface is not going to cover up such disregard....

NOT comparing the MS to any other top of the line arranger..... a bad joke!

You and jonesboy are the only ones to comment on the styles from a perspective of the owner, so a 50/50 split as to opinions about the styles, and he isn't a rep. The rest of us just go to the website and listen to the demos. A bit more consensus there..... You don't have to play an MS to hear one and make your mind up.......

Let me add, probably 100% of the very few people that ARE likely to be interested in an MS (despite their sales staff's determination to insult them) already have at least a 16 track 24 bit computer recording capability, VST instruments, and all the plug-ins you can shake a stick at. These have LONG been available, at FAR less that the MS's Linux solution.

So what you are trying (sarcastically) to sell is something we already have. How much of this do we need to transport to the gig? Probably the VST and GIGA stuff only. Unless the styles blow my lowly, pathetic G70 out of the water (I know it's not a G1000, but it was all I could afford!), what need do I have for it?

Back in the day, Fran, you were quite prepared to comment on keyboards other than your own G1000, often with no more than a listen to manufacturer posted demos. Are you saying you were full of it then, or now?

The joke appears to be on us.......

------------------------------------------------

Seriously, man, you know I like you, but would YOU buy something from someone that just talked to you like your last post? Try reading George's posts and reviews if you need any pointers on how to communicate with a potential customer. Respect and patience will get you more sales than insults and confrontation......

Now I AM off this thread! (Unless Domenik's been setting up Saddam as a dealer, too!)

"I don't know, maybe the weight issue is really more of a concern to arranger players because of the market arrangers are intended for and geared towards"

bingo!!! somebody just switched on the light in here! Please let Dom know what his marketing department (if he has one) should have told him. The arranger market is different to the synth market.

Fran tell me what you are going to do with your 16 audi tracks in your one man band performance ? If i wanted backing tracks at a gig i would buy them . You and Dom might want this facility but tell me , does the arranger market want it ?

You say most of the styles work fine on the MS ? so were the demos that we heard online the better of the styles that worked "fine" in your opinion as someone that HAS SEEN and HEARD the MS, unlike the rest of us that can only judge it based upon what the manufacturer has put up for us to judge the instrument ?

What are you going to do with video editing on your arranger keyboard ? I genuinley want to know. Are you going to watch a film while you play audi tracks to your clients because you are too embarrassed to play the styles ? You and dom might want this facility but does the arranger market want it ?

if there were only a couple of potential customers on this forum then an awful lot of people wasted their time trying to persuade Dom to take their money off them. Perhaps there would have been more than a couple if Dom just listened!

if other arrangers as competition is a joke to you. if potential customers views and opinions sound stupid to you . then you are gonna struggle as a rep for the mediastation unless of course ......it too was a joke (note the absence of a smiley face)

You know what ? i wont comment on the MS again . I am feeling fairly wound up towards the manufacturer and its sales people as they quite obviously havent a bloody clue .

Am I the only one who sees that the MediaStation is the "Hybrid" many of us have been asking for? A full fledged synth/workstation and arranger keyboard.

Weight issues are clearly different with synth players compared to arranger players, and that's fine. Who knows, maybe down the line Dom will produce a unit with a plastic body, and 76 non weigthed keys, but still keep in mind some of the unavoidable issues Dom had to meet with FCC regulations and so on.

Also keep in mind that Dom's english isn't the best. Dom is a really nice person. His post may come off a little harsh, but he doesn't intend to come off that way to people here. We who speak english well know how to "soften" a statement to avoid hurt feelings. Knowing and speaking to Dom I take his position as "we know the weight is an issue to some, but due to certain mandatory requirements some weight could not be avoided". That's how I saw it because I've chatted with Dom before, and he's a great guy, and I know he doesn't intend to come off that way. So I just right it off as a minor language barrier He "does" listen to users. His willingness to listen is obvious with the many changes that have come and are in the near future for the MediaStation.

sorry, said I was through but now my blood's up..try to compare it to Yamaha ypg line. not anywhere the same
kind of kb, natch, but just as an analogy, Ok?
they have YPG 625 which costs $799 w/legs, and is 88-key full weighted action. They also have an 88 and a 76
version with synth actions, costing $599 and $499 which weigh HALF of what the ypg 625 weighs. in every other respect except the sturdier legs and heavier case and woodgrain details of the 625, the units are identical.
I don't see any reason Dom can't take this as a model.


------------------
Miami Mo

.

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 12-20-2006).]

Posted by Fran:
----------------------------------------
It is not an arranger...It is a total
workstation, with arranger features....that is why we can't compare to the keyboards you refer to...
----------------------------------------

Fran you are spot on my friend! That may be where the confusion is here. The MediaStation is a full production system with arranger capabilites. Simply put the HYBRID we've been asking for.

Guys, I didn't mean to start another controversy by bringing up the weight! I merely stated it wasn't for me. I sincerely wish Liontracks the best. They are doing a lot of things right for a lot of people, just not me, and I don't have a problem with that.
We ALWAYS have to make allowances for the language barriers between our different nationalities. I am in awe of anyone who can even partially master a second or third language!
DonM

Its got nothing to do with a language barrier ! Its insulting to anyones intelligence to think that Dom and frans attitude cannot be seen for what it is, just complete rudeness and total lack of respect to people who want to see what could be a good product become better. All along this whole thread and previous threads regarding this instrument the theme has been " this is the best instrument not like the cheap crap you amateurs have been playing and if you dont agree then sod off !" Those are not actuall qoutes but that certainly has been the theme . Then Dom typically leaves with the parting arrogance that has become his trademark. " I am wasting my time, i am bored , i will not listen !" Do you think he had a problem with language or is he just plain arrogant ? For goodness sake !

Now we are being spun the new angle that it is a complete workstation with arranger capabilities !Diki has already pointed out that the workstation features are available on computers for a fraction of what the MS costs so that aspect is less likely to interest certainly myself as opposed to the arranger angle. I have only heard the demos online like most of us.Just how capable an arranger is this thing ? one problem though. I am turned on musically by the arranger aspect, this is an arranger forum viewed in the main by arranger enthusiasts and professional musicians and the one thing that for sure does not measure up on the MS compared to the "cheap plastic " lighter competitors is guess what ?

I said i was done with this topic. Apologies.

A few points:
1.the styles need addressing - Dom is working on this and very soon all will be well ..He LISTENED when we asked for more and better styles.
2.Dom is a TOP Guy - the fact that he visited me in the UK to go over a number of the features and functionality of the MS speaks volumes!
3.He is open to all sorts of suggestions in respect of future updates for the MS ..Only last week I mentioned a feature that would be good for the layers and combi sounds and it is being added in the next os update.
4.He works "around the clock" to deliver what we as players want.
5.His support for his buyers is unrivalled in the marketplace - he is ALWAYS avaliable to help on line.
6.Last point - if you don't like Dom or his "apparent" poor attitude dont buy an MS ....simple!!
Mark!



[This message has been edited by jonesyboy (edited 12-18-2006).]

I have said it before, I will say it again.

From a pure SELLING viewpoint, Dom should stick with the architecture/development/support of his company's keyboard, he is doing an excellent job. In the latest months he has made strides in delivering the goods, offered new features, new sounds etc etc.

Now for the SALES part, the one that connects with customers, builds relationships, trust, showcases the product, attracts customers, and last but not least, opens pockets and gets checks signed, he should hire someone else. IMHO, Dave McMahan of GEM should do nicely. In my eyes he is a pro, and Dom is in need of a pro in that area.

Dom, a mediocre product can sell well in the right hands. A suberb product, in the wrong hands, will not. Please listen to what people/potential customers say.
Theodore

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 12-19-2006).]

I haven�t responded to this thread yet because I have been very involved in a major remodeling job at home, and have had little time to invest in the petty squabbling I have read here. But at this point I feel compelled to give my opinion. I have been a reader of this forum for many years and a member also posting for almost 3 years. I joined this forum for the exchange of information and fellowship with others who share my primary interest, arranger keyboards and music.

I really appreciate this forum and have gained a lot of good info, plus made some great friends. But there is one thing that I have found particularly bothersome. As soon as some threads start to become a good source of info some people throw a wrench in the gears by starting arguments. This results in a good thread becoming a fighting match because not many people can resist jumping in to a scuffle. But those searching for information are thrown one more stumbling block to learning what they need to know.

The first page of this thread started off great with Fran being asked how he likes the Mediastation so far. With all the interest that has been shown the Mediastation, I would think this is a question many people would like to have more information on. But instead of encouraging more information to be given, it degrades into debates on people�s opinions of keyboard weight, Domeniks temperament, and Lionstracs lack of a proper Marketing and public relations department. This only stops the flow of information and that is bad for everyone, except for those who just want to argue.

If you think that the Mediastation is the best thing that ever happened to arrangers or the worst, then you feelings can be either confirmed or refuted by more information. Isn�t that what we all want??? So doesn�t it make more sense to allow the information to flow so that not only you, but also others can make up their own minds?

I first learned about the Mediastation from this forum and was the first person in the US to purchase one. I have the first X-88 Pro that Lionstracs built. Prior to my purchase I had quite a struggle gaining enough data to make my decision. As you may know there are not a lot of sources available, outside of the Lionstracs website. This forum became the best secondary source I could find. But every time I begin to learn a few new facts about the Mediastation, the focus would again shift to people�s opinions of personalities and not to the topic of the technology that I so desperately wanted to learn about.

I am very happy that I was able to sift through the contention and strife and read enough �between the lines� to decide that this was the keyboard for me, despite all the negative comments from people who really had nothing of use to offer. Domenik and I have since become very close friends and I am able to get the info I need from him, but there are others who are where I was one year ago. Trying to gain the information they need. In consideration of them I wish we could see less confrontations and more info and opinions from people who actually have something to offer.

As far as the weight of the keyboard goes, you can�t realistically expect a small company like Lionstracs to offer every variety and flavor of keyboard builds. They have decided to give two sizes, 76 semi-weighted and 88 fully weighted hammer action. I feel that the weight of the X-88 Pro is about right and I have no complaints. As a matter of fact If Domenik had made the Mediastation to be a lightweight plastic 61 key workstation, I would not have been interested in it, and to suggest that the few wanting this option is the view of sz is completely in error. I have been doing live performances 1 to 5 times per week almost every week for about 22 years, and using arranger keyboards to do this for about 18 years. I started with the Korg I3 and midi-ed it to a Roland RD300 when no 88 key arranger was available. So for 22 years I have carried an 88 key, hammer action keyboard, weighing about the same as the Mediastation but with much less features. Even my GEM sk880 Powerstation weighs about the same as my mediastation.

It is probably easier to make a light weight keyboard with embedded keyboard parts than using standard desktop PC parts, but I am glad the Mediastation is constructed as it is. I can go anywhere and find the parts to either upgrade or repair should it ever be necessary. I have upgraded my X-88 Pro to a AMD Athalon 4200+ Dual Core processor so I feel very confident in the future of my Mediastation. I am very satisfied that I have made the right choice for me.

And I�d also like to say that I find the comments about Magica Alfa�s English insulting. This is an international forum and I am glad to have sz members willing to attempt English even though it is not their primary language. In the case of Magica Alpha it is his third and I have no problem understanding what he is saying. I admire him for that. I think a little understanding could serve us all well.

Squeak, I agree with you, many of us have anxiously awaited a workstation / arranger / computer hybrid and complained because no one would attempt it. Now that some one designed one we complain about any rough edge that is not fully polished. No wonder no one else would try it.

My Mediastation sounds great and I wouldn�t trade it for a Tyros2 and a Pa1x pro combined, though both of these are great keyboards. I also prefer it to what I know of the wersi, though I highly respect that keyboard as well. It is just right for me. Everyone has to make up their own mind

I hope that Domenik will continue to share info with this forum, and that Fran will continue to give us his thoughts, as he becomes more familiar with it. I am conversing regularly with Fran and Mark, offering any assistance as they learn a new OS. I also talk with Magica Alpha often and have found his technical expertise to be very valuable to me. With Ensnare you, Dan, Domenik and a few others we are becoming an active and supportive user group.

Also to Frankeive I am in SC on the east coast of the USA though maybe still a long way from you. If you were passing through my area I would be glad to arrange a demo for you.

Richard Shiflet

As always Richard - you make great sense...
I for one fully appreciate the help and assistance you have given me - this is a different arranger/workstation and I for one am glad that I have stuck with it ..I am now starting to see the real benefits of the Mediastation - I have said it many many times - if you don't want a Mediastation then don't buy one
Mark

I aplogies if my comments have ofended anyone or obstructed them in finding out more about the MS . That includes Fran and Dom

Thanks for the reality check Richard.

Regards Spalding

I'm having a problem understanding why there is all this intense emotional attacking and defending here. I've heard enough testimonials here about Dom to accept that this man has a lot going for him, so i don't have a huge problem with his temperamental nature, or lack of tact. People like Dom who are brilliant creators are entitled to
a wide berth. The rest of you who are standing up for the
MS in the face of what you perceive to be attacks on it are the real problem. Instead of MEDIATING, and helping Dom see the other side, which he definitely needs to do to be as succesful as all of us would like him to be, you are adding fuel to the fire, and unlike Dom, who can offer technical explanations from the horse's mouth (and also sometimes from the horse's ass lol) it is not inappropriate for him to feel emotion re criticism of his creation, but your emotions are misguided, misplaced and do more to hurt the MS cause than help it.

As far as I can see, there are those who are saying they need more and better styles and more and better arranger functions from the MS, or they don't have an incentive to buy it, and those like myself who are saying they need to have a lighter version of it or they don't have an incentive to buy it. Either the MS can be adapted to fill one or both
of those quite legitimate real-world needs, or it can't. In this case none of us are sure if can't just means won't...
because someone who wants/needs more arranger functionality and better syles ootb doesn't want to be told
he's an idiot who doesn't know apples from oranges, and someone who wants/needs a lighter kb doesn't want to be
told weight is no big deal, lighter means crappy.



------------------
Miami Mo

So let me ask this, can the MS read Yamaha styles or any other styles or must they be converted first? It seems someone could write a program like OMB using all the MS dedicated keys and button's?
If the styles need to be converted can they be converted with one of the available style conversion programs.
And also isn't converting styles a big pain, I think I have read here before that a lot of people just don't think it is worth the trouble.

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 12-19-2006).]

.

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 12-20-2006).]

Hi Fran
Not impressed with the piano or sax voices used, and I also thought the B4 sounded a touch harsh, the style seemed fine for general use, not as sophisticated as Tyros 2 but they can sometimes be over the top.
Overall for an off the cuff (So to speak) performance it seems fine.
BTW you will find that for backing (And a lot of solo work) Akai samples will be as good as any. (The advantages of High End VSTs tending to get lost in a mix)
Look forward to some more songs, particularly when you�ve got the Mediastation optimised.

Bill

.

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 12-20-2006).]

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in......!

I am not going to make ANY comment about the RH voices' quality - the playing was so poor as to make quality moot. Fran, you've always stood up for your buddies when they were a bit brutal to other posters, here. I hope you can take what you dish out....... That demo is one of the best reasons to not buy a MS I have yet heard. It makes the factory ones seem amazing!

Look, everyone reading this thread, download Fran's demo, and laugh your a$$es off......!

Not only, unfortunately, is the playing terribly amateurish, but if you actually CAN get past that, and listen to the style underneath, there are all sorts of weird jumps in the guitar voices, jerky chord transitions (listen at :45), strange variation choices (probably Fran, but who knows? listen at 1:10) and fills that sound confused and poorly mixed.

Of course it's possible to play a LOT better than Fran's example (I've heard better from Fran in the past) but the style itself....... Other than the silly talk about weight going on endlessly here - look, everybody, there are arrangers from the Big 3 that weigh as much, nearly, as the MS, so don't all pile on Domenik for that one..... bitch at Roland for the E80, bitch at Korg for the PA1XPro (plenty of you have THOSE...) - no, the STYLES is what I've been talking about since the beginning of this thread........

Does ANYONE here think that that style was anything but a dog.....? That's all I've been saying since the start. Domenik, I've heard better, smoother transitioning styles on a Casio (no offense to you Casio people!). Who cares how good the lead voices sound, with backing like that?

And Fran, you should be ashamed...... after all that time extolling how good the G1000 was, directly compared against T2's and Korgs etc., and now you are touting that awful style against even your old G1000....? I think Fran's found the Emperor's New Arranger.....

Domenik, if I were you, I would email Fran and tell him to NEVER post another pile of dog doo like that again. You are doing your best (I really AM interested in the MS, and am only waiting to hear the new styles with VST and GIGA to see if you CAN make it better than the T2 et al), but that demo didn't help at all. In fact, it only confirms what we've all been saying to you (except the weight thing!) all along;

The MS is, indeed a HYBRID. it is trying to be an arranger AND a workstation. Currently, it is an amazing workstation, and a lousy arranger (only because of the styles, but hey, what else IS an arranger about, primarily?). When it is an amazing workstation, AND an amazing arranger, I will buy one...... Until then......

----------------------------------------------------------

I apologize to all in this post about how harshly I have taken Fran to task about that awful demo, but after his insulting comments to us all here, and staunch support of his 'friends' that also think brutal honesty is acceptable commentary, I am SURE he will forgive me for responding in fashion.

Fran please don't take offense, I am not picking on your playing ability, as I understand it was a once over live take.

But from that demo, the sound quality does sound worse than your G1000.

Those drums, that guitar strum and tacky sax and piano. Sounds like it was done on an old Casio.

your right not being able to compare the MS to most mid to top of the market arrangers because they absolutely put that MS sound bank to shame.

This would have to be one of the first times I highly agree with Diki.

Fran,

I must agree with Diki...the demo is not very impressive.

You could have been playing a very low end portable keyboard judging from what I heard.


Ian

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Remember to leave good news alone.