The new Ketron sound module SD-3 came in today available at your local retailer

Ted Kraus
CMC DIstributors

Cool module, but come on man..., over $2000 for a freakin sound module! I like Ketron, but geez are they overpriced. Plus the built in HD dosen't justify a higher price anymore considering how cheap HD's are now. Looking at the Ketron US page you'll see the the optional HD is $350, and another $180 for the vocalizer, and expanded pattern memory will run you another $108--YIKES!! **Even the little SD-2 costs over $300--I think closer to $400**

I think part of Ketron's problem isn't just that they're not too well known here, but they've outpriced themselves for the US market. Even the SD-5 costs over $2,000! I mean no dis-respect to you, but high end arrangers are already grossly overpriced when compared to other pro keyboards.

I love seeing dedicated synth junkies buying good arrangers, but it's very hard to justify the price difference of (I'll use Yamaha for example), a $3,500 Tyros 2, and a Motif XS6 that costs over $1,000 less. People can justify it by saying "oh consider the styles", but I say poo doo on that because what makes the tools of a pro arranger more important than the tools of a pro synth player?

**Sorry to hi-jack your thread, but man when is someone going to say "enough is enough" with these crazy prices on pro arrangers, and sound modules**

There's a reason a lot of store don't carry high end arrangers..., the cost of the unit often results in the potential buyer leaving with a sour taste. When I was at Guitar Center not too long ago, I was listening to a guy playing with the Tyros II. Some how he didn't see that $3,500 price tag in BIG RED numbers in front of him. He loved the Tyros sounds, but when he saw the price **no joke** I watched a mother cover her childs ears because of his response to it....



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-08-2007).]

Squeak_D

I can very well understand your frustration regarding the high price for Ketron arrangers and sound modules alongside the other brands of arrangers.

The reason the Italian manufactured Ketron brand is not cheaper then other brands is because of the dollar Vs euro situation As these keyboards are unique being manufactured entirely in Italy we lost about 35% of the dollar value in the last 2 years hopefully when the exchange rate improves we will be able to negotiate better pricing

Ted Kraus
CMC Dist

Again..., sorry I hi-jacked your thread. My frustration is also due to the amount of work I've put into helping some local stores "attempt" to build a keyboard department. Getting in the lower end arrangers, and even some high end synth-workstations wasn't hard to sell to the store owner.

However, everytime I tried to introduce the idea of a high end arranger.., man it went south fast. It wasn't shot down at first mention, but once the store owners saw what the dealer prices would be to them, and what they'd have to sell them for--well I'm sure you can figure out the rest.

And may I add WELL WORTH IT!!

Ketron is really leading the way under the radar. I'll say this now IMHO the SD1+ is the BEST sounding arranger workstation I have every owned or performed on stage with to date!

There I said it & I'm proud of it!

To continue the hijack, mid to top of the line arrangers aren't a mass market item thats for sure.

Not in the USA they're not....

The biggest thing that made me want to grab a Yamaha rep by the neck and choke the livin shit out the arrogant jerk was a comment he made to me that's (like it or not) a major contributing factor to arranger prices--and that's "intended market".

That snot nose jerk wasn't shy about saying it's the old folks that are willing to pay that price. Ohhhhhh that made me sooooo mad! He was such a snob. After he made that comment I knew he felt the death rays shooting from my eyes straight into his face!



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-08-2007).]

Easy Squeak before you blow a vessel....

Just sit back & think how wonderful all these KB's are & what it took to design this equipment for our enjoyment compared to just a few short years ago. If something can make you happy in our short lives
ITS PRICELESS in my book. Give people their due who go thru the process to produce these instruments.....everyone needs to make a living....if something is beyond reach there are many alternatives people can seek to come close to their desires in music or anything else for that matter. Or think of the less fortunate & how lucky we really are.
Calm down & smell the roses my friend


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________________________

Donny

“ Choose a Job You Love, and you will Never have to Work a Day in Your Life! ”
________________________
And HUG Someone tight Everyday....
You'll Feel better afterwards

I'm calm I just don't like hearing that "our price is there because we can get old people to pay it". That's just wrong. I actually called the guy an a$$hole to his face. Here's the catch though...., because of the reps attitude and snobby remarks Yamaha keyboards were never orderd for the store.

It goes to show to the big companies that your reps can kill your business.

Until arrangers are re-tooled to appeal to younger players, they will continue to be a disappearing breed in the USA. MOST of the dealers that ARE qualified to carry Tyros2's and higher end PSRs (S900 etc.), Roland G and E-series and PA1X's will not carry them.

They are a very poor comparison to any modern workstation for anything other than classic rock and oldies styles. And a LOT of the older, working professionals are wary of the flimsy build quality (having grown up on keyboards made to higher standards). So, a small percentage of an even smaller percentage are the only 'target customers' of these VERY expensive arrangers. No dealer is going to be interested in carrying a product WAY more expensive than most workstations that appeals to less than 1% of his market.

QUANTITY is what drives prices down. Until they design arrangers to appeal to the same market as workstations (the VAST majority of which are bought by players under 35), the market will continue to shrink, quantity will continue to plummet, and prices will only get higher...

If you are looking for a new TOTL arranger, better get it soon.... We have all seen what happened to organs over the last 30 years. Few manufacturers make them any more (as very few youngsters decided to play them) and the few that do command appalling boutique prices for essentially unmovable furniture.

Sound familiar?

Diki
I agree with you on this..I do not think it will happen over night...but it sure sounds logical...

Ron

[This message has been edited by rphillipchuk (edited 08-08-2007).]

Actually, the price is there because they can't get YOUNG people to buy them...

I think the problem is not the arranger KB its the people who KNOW how to play them & the upcoming people who are not replenishing , learning how, or even want to with all the alternatives to make music out there with a barrage of competition which the public is ever getting use too with the likes of Karaoke, DJ's, everyone & their mother who thinks they can sing artists, etc etc etc . Plus, the great music of years past is which in my opinion will be around way after we're all gone isn't mainstream so less people listen to it vs most of the crap on every channel. Im glad I was able to be around in an ever changing gradual musical influence joyride for the last 40 yrs of performing which makes it mush easier to go with the flow & keeping within the reaches and the pulse of whats going on to make a living as a KB artist & definitly way beyond versus a new comer who doesn't even know who the Beatles are let alone Harry James, Sarah Vaughn, Al Hirt or Connie Haines... man in this game ya gotta find your slice of the pie and take hold of it big time ....otherwise someone is gonna Eat YOUR Piece if you blink your eyes

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________________________

Donny

“ Choose a Job You Love, and you will Never have to Work a Day in Your Life! ”
________________________
And HUG Someone tight Everyday....
You'll Feel better afterwards

SD3

I don't really think arranger keyboards will go the way of the old home organ. Yes, at the moment the vast majority of people who really understand how to use (or for that matter sell) an arranger keyboard comes from an organ background. But to say that until the arranger keyboards are re-designed to make them appealing to a younger audience, well that's not totally accurate. There are a few arranger instruments that can definitely hold their own next to what is commonly referred to as a workstation keyboard but not enough folks are aware of that fact. I see several problems that need to be addressed to correct this. Retail salespeople need to be trained on these instruments so they will know the capabilities, and they need to be de-sensitized to the word arranger. I mean there is a very fine line between today’s workstations and arranger keyboards. A lot of the newer workstations are filled with patches that with a single touch of a key starts to play patterns consisting of drum loops, bass parts, etc. Also, for arranger keyboards to gain some ground in the U.S. the manufacturer would be good to advertise to a younger audience, but with the relatively small margins made on this type of product that is kind of hard to do effectively.

A quick story; A couple of months ago I visited Sweetwater Music to provide product training to their sales staff (I think I worked with about 80 salespeople in a 5 hour period). One particular salesman who was into DJ stuff like sampling/looping, re-mixing, etc. asked if he could start a loop and then bring tracks in and out at will. So we found a techno beat that he liked, pressed start and triggered a key. The style played with the accompaniment tracks. I pressed Mixer and he was able to mix each track live. He then wanted to adjust the cut-off frequency of the filter for the bass loop so I pressed the Edit Sound button and he was able to adjust the filter and every other aspect of this sound like amplitude and filter envelope generators, LFO’s, etc. in real time. When he said “that is the sound I am looking for” I pressed the store button and saved his edit to the initial style preset, all while the style was still running. There were more revelations but suffice it to say that he was coming from a totally different background than the average arranger user and the questions he was asking pertained to the products he is familiar with that are designed with only DJ use in mind and he left realizing that there is a whole new instrument that he can introduce to buyers in his market.

As for price, there is the Euro/U.S. dollar issue. But also take into consideration the fact that an arranger instrument requires the same type of hardware and software that goes in to a workstation instrument PLUS on top of that additional software must be written for the arranger section, not to mention the cost of creating all of the styles that are included in the instrument. It costs more to create a professional arranger/workstation instrument.

Dave

Then you have the TOTL arranger keyboard versus the BOTL arranger keyboard scenarios......for example...

"I like your keyboard my grandson has one just like that....he paid $199.00 for it at Sams Club is that where you got yours?"

People are unacknowledged about these wonderful instruments ...but in there layman's eyes ONLY SEE WHITE & BLACK KEYS which in their mind is a keyboard right? & they all must be the same ? regardless of quality, brand, etc etc ....

You have to educate yourself in any way you can about your purchase....what is really dying out is buying gear from a store vs the Internet....besides 90% of sales people, tech-reps, geek squads idiots, etc etc are detrimental to your purchase, why? because they dont know squat about what is being sold in the stores they work in...management is not much better, plus they even hire UNTRAINED people just to fill slots on the floor, talk on the cell phone to their girlfriends & hide so you have to search for someone to even ask a question if your dare because the answer will almost like be
"I really dont know" "Arranger Whats that?"
"I dont think we have that in stock"
"What do you need that for?" etc etc .....its a sad state of affairs...your on your own out there

Dave, I believe the main problem that comes trying to sell arrangers to the younger players comes from the preponderance of styles aimed squarely at the 'older' market.

You may be right that a FEW arrangers are able in hardware and software to get close to workstation features, and even sound (if you are not TOO picky) but the sad fact is, 95% of the styles in the arranger (the very thing that the manufacturers are telling us why they are SO much more expensive than better featured workstations) are of NO conceivable use to anyone thirty and under (OK, let's be honest and just say the vast majority of under 30 players!).

Add to that the soundset is geared to acoustic and older sounds, samplers don't load fast enough to be a feasible replacement, and nothing so far integrates arpeggiation with conventional arranger operation, and while you CAN do a quick demo to impress a salesman, try taking your arranger to a rave and using it there.

Without a complete re-tooling of the styles (the manufacturers refuse to let their arpeggiation voicing teams work on arrangers) and soundsets, OOTB these current arrangers would be an embarrassment to anyone doing modern music.

Sure, you COULD spend months writing your own techno and Hiphop beats into it (and sampling more contemporary beatboxes) but as you know well, the vast majority of workstations sold don't ever have their internal ROM arpeggiators messed with, much. Most don't get sold to record producers or beat factories. People use them just the way they use arrangers (the vast majority of arranger users don't write their own styles, either) as something to mess around with at home, or with a few friends.

So why would ANY youngster want to pay 30% or more MORE than a workstation, to get a piece of kit that only had maybe 5% of the styles he could use...?

This is what I've been saying all along... Arranger manufacturers don't have to re-invent the wheel. SOME of them already have hardware and OSs that can cope with modern music. The rest only have to make minor OS changes to allow for modern styles, and allow a few more realtime voice controls.

But ALL OF THEM have to make a determined effort to pack the arranger with modern sounding styles and sounds. And this, so far, they refuse to do, DESPITE having voicing teams that do exactly this for their workstations. And then, they sit around scratching their heads, going 'Why are arranger sales so sluggish?'

Sadly, most modern arrangers are capable of having their entire ROM styles easily replaced. Why not take the hardware they already have, replace ALL the older styles with modern ones, and re-label the arranger? 'The Rave Machine', the 'Hood Party Blaster', the 'Alternative Arranger', whatever...

As long as some young hiphop guy doesn't accidentally hit 'Waltz 3' or 'Sunny Bossa', there's a pretty good chance you'll make the sale. But the minute he gets into that Ballroom Bank, or the Polka styles, he's outta there!

Why don't the arranger manufacturers realize this? Take ALL the older styles out (have them on a card that the dealer only puts in to show to the few older customers still alive!) and they will fly off the shelves...

There is very serious ommision on both the SD3 module & the SD5 keyboard - no USB to Device port, for a flash drive or external Hard Drive - not even an SD Card slot which almost every cheap camera has nowadays.
A floppy disk is steam age technology nowadays and a cost of £250 (UK) for a small internal Hard drive is far too much for far too little, when I have bought a 500 Gb external Hard Drive for my computer for £85.

After reading a brilliant review of the SD5 (on Jazzhooves), I had intended to buy an SD3 as soon as they hit the market - I consider the £1300 asking price (BCK) to be a fair price for this module, (which is a complete SD5 keyboard without the keys & speakers) but I don't want to go back to using slow & outdated floppy disks after using an SD card on my Technics KN7000 (as good as any hard drive I.M.H.O.)

Ketron make quality products with good sounds and features and they have been one of the few manufacturers to keep producing Module versions of their keyboards. I have praised them constantly for this and wish to continue my support for them - but the lack of cheap and convenient storage is a big turn-off in my opinion and I'm now reluctant to make the purchase.

I have invited AJ or, better still, someone from Ketron themselves, to comment on this but the silence is deafening.

Tony, SHEFFIELD

I understand what you are saying and in part I agree with you. It would be nice to have the capabilities (meaning money and time mostly) to create entirely new O/S's that would focus on specific market segments. I have suggested that in the past. But the reality is the manufacturer has to focus on the primary buyer that already exists for a given type of product and in the case here in the U.S. at least, it is the organ people of the past. Incidentally, in Europe arranger keyboards are much more prominent and used by ALL ages. Then again, most arranger users in Europe tend to have a sense of pride in NOT using built-in styles so much because they feel it is important to offer some individuality in their performance.

Would offering an arranger instrument focusing strictly on hip hop, rave, techno, etc. sell? Probably not because it would still cost more than a basic workstation that includes some built-in sampled beat loops.

Here's an idea, pick an arranger of your choice that has the ability to create custom styles and start programming. If you think there is such a market, you should be able to pick up some decent spare change by creating and selling these types of styles.

Not to turn this into an advertisement, but as an example, the Genesys has a very deep sound editing section. And some of the main values such as filter cutoff and resonance, LFO rate and depth, ADR, etc. plus of course volume, panning, effects sends and even the editable parameters within the effect algorithms can all be recorded into the sequencer (of which there are 32 tracks/MIDI channels) and into style tracks.

Just a thought.

Dave

Well, I'm one of those "older" arranger buyers. I play everything from the 20's through the 70's. Because of my market, I wish I could audition and select professional styles related to what I do and load them into a "blank" arranger. I don't use half of the styles on these keyboards. And programming----not me. Don't have the inclination nor time for that. Got to work fast with hundreds of songs ready to go. Overall, I've had good luck with all the major brands. With Yamaha at the moment, but willing to change.

Let's go a step further and say the price is there to show the folks it's a serious machine - as opposed to the $199 one the listener's grandson has. Not that someone wouldn't buy a G70 or T2 for $1999, but it sure sends a signal that it's different than the entry or mid level models.

You know, I remember a time when an arranger instrument was an acoustic piano, a set of bass pedals and one of these;



Funny thing, there is a fellow still around town kicking pedals while playing an acoustic grand and he sometimes uses a Rhythm Ace (not the model above, but close) and you know what, it sound just fine.


[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 08-09-2007).]

very few arranger or workstation players use more than a fraction of the sounds and styles that are available in today's units. yet they sell because the fraction they use are the ones that do it for them. i don't use many styles other than jazz, latin, blues, and funk--and i don't even much use those..mostly just bass/drums of the styles, and just a couple dozen of the hundreds of sounds. Yet.. I'm an active kb buyer--i don't reject a kb because it has archaic oompahpah or old german waltzes one one hand or modern rock, techno, hiphop, etc. on the other, and the notion that the presence of polkas or other non-modern sounds frightens off a younger buyer is spurious. unless you are talking of adolescents who happen to be extremely insecure..and that segment does not represent a major market for hi-end kb's, or automobiles. If the kb has enough of the styles/sounds the younger buyer wants, it will sell to that buyer regardless of what it has he doesn't want. the unhip "image" of arrangers has proliferated due to the lack of more modern styles, not the presence of older styles. The most damaging ad campaign of modern times was "this is NOT your father's Oldsmobile!" the phrase has lived on but the Olds died quickly after the ad campaign totally backfired. Instead of playing on the fact the Olds had been the best-selling car in the country for a stretch, and how and why their fathers and grandfathers loved it, it went for the anti-old, anti-daddy rebellion attitude..well, that demographic is age 12-16, not car-buying age..and those who would avoid a kb like the plague because older people like it too are 12-16..not your TOTL kb buyer. Just add to the existing kb's features, sounds, styles the younger buyers are looking for, forget "image"

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Miami Mo

You are right, especially considering that the Midjay has both an USB port AND an internal hard disk. The SD5 (and the SD3) look like repackaged stuff from the SD1 era;
however, if you are interested into buying one really cheap, check this link

[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 08-10-2007).]

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[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 08-10-2007).]

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[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 08-10-2007).]

the SD5 comes shipped from Ketron USA with a USB adapter cable which plugs into the computer port on the back of the keyboard. This way you have access to transfering data back and forth from a computer.


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George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

First of all, we all know how hard a sell it is, after talking a customer into an overpriced arranger, to then turn around and tell him if he wants more than the 5% of usable young biased styles, he is going to have to pay even MORE... LOTS more... going price for decent styles at least $10 each - 200+ styles in an arranger, you do the math!

Sale lost....

Secondly, as the potential market for current arrangers shrinks (none of us getting any younger... ), where do the arranger manufacturers think new sales are going to come from if they DON'T make the investment in new OSs, soundsets, and primarily, styles? Are they praying for a huge ballroom revival? Will schlager finally sweep America? Will Green Bay win the Superbowl and precipitate a Polka craze?

Sale lost...

Just imagine the case that if contemporary arrangers were stocked with 95% of styles only usable for 1880-1920's popular music. NO swing, no rock-and-roll, no bossanova, no funk, no rock, no disco. Do you think you could sell even ONE? THAT is what you are trying to do to young players...

If they don't make arrangers for the market they WANT, and stick to the shrinking market they have, this is marketing suicide. Adapt or die.

Industry lost...

Posted by:WDMcM
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Here's an idea, pick an arranger of your choice that has the ability to create custom styles and start programming. If you think there is such a market, you should be able to pick up some decent spare change by creating and selling these types of styles.
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Dave, sorry but that in itself IS the problem. You can't just record modern styles on many arrangers out there today. The problem is they lack the "sounds" to create these styles. The only keyboard on the market IMO that would even favor close (but not quite there) for modern styles would be the Korg PA's. You need a full synth engine and a REAL sampler built into the unit. One that will perform with "speed" and not take three days to load a sample **cough cough Yamaha**

I totally agree with Diki. As long as arrangers continue to be marketed towards the "older crowd" and are filled with more classic and traditional styles you're not going to get the attention of the younger crowd. It's also quite often the younger crowd that speaks so badly of arrangers too.

Think about it really. Even today's arrangers don't really even have modern versions of the styles already in the board. You don't get modern country, modern rock, or modern alternative music from an arranger. You simply get the more classic versions. Plus the boards that do have some modern classic styles really aren't quite there either because you get someone elses idea of this style rather than the industry version. You always get the ahhh, it's close, but not quite there feeling with those types of styles on arrangers.

Maybe the way to fix it is for the big three to hire "younger style writers"--those who are more in touch with those styles of music. Just a suggestion.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-10-2007).]

Also you have to be realistic too. Even if the big three put out modern pro arrangers it would still be a dead project because the younger crowd wouldn't pay the prices when you can get a modern synth for $1,000 or more less.

What I don't understand is how the makers go on and on about "oh so much work goes into the styles" so the price has to be high. Sorry I think that's utter bullcrap. When a rep tells me that the first thing I say is--have you ever tried to program a pro quality arp? I notice a lot of arranger owners seem to not understand how much work goes into creating this amazing arps on a synth. You think it's easy to make a guitar strumming arp that uses body noise, and other nuances, on top of having to program it to sound like a proper strum that utilizes both the up and down stroke raked in various ways????

Recording arps is like rocket science. Even a well known Yamaha rep such as Phil Clend. A.K.A (Bad_Mister) will agree to that. So much work goes into writing those and Yamaha is now using chord recognition with them. With all the work that goes into creating modern, up to date patterns, grooves, sounds, and arps you don't see the makers killing us with these high prices you find on a pro arranger... They don't price them high because they know the market wouldn't roll over and take it.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-10-2007).]

The thing is, squeak, the majors already HAVE hired younger style writers. They use them exclusively for making hip arpeggio patterns for workstations. They just need to employ them to make styles, as well. I'm SURE they could use the extra work (Yamaha and Roland only update their workstation line every three or four years) and money!

But I disagree they won't pay for them if they WERE voiced better. They already pay close to TOTL arranger prices for TOTL workstations, and these are more expensive than great sounding mid-priced arrangers like S900, E60, etc.. We already know how much easier it is to produce improvised music on an arranger than a workstation. The minute that arrangers are re-voiced to be good at the same musics that workstations are, the ease of workflow (in comparison to a WS) will decimate WS sales, and arrangers will become the predominant keyboard.

The MotifXS is a step in the right direction, but it takes style control from a WS point of view rather than arranger. If the arps and styles had a more arranger-like control system, this would be the bomb. But cueing up your variations and fills a bar in advance is NOT 'improvising'.

Take the sounds and arps from a MotifXS, or M3, or FantomX, and put an arranger control front end, and you have the WS killer, right there. The only question is, are the the arranger divisions going to let the WS divisions steal the concepts, muddle through the first few generations, repeating all the mistakes the arranger divisions have already made, or are the arranger divisions going to do it, with their wealth of experience at this type of control, and wake up and take control of their own destiny?

It is time that one of the majors made a modern music arranger that ISN'T a toy, unlike the MM6 and DJXs.

So we know keyboard manufacturers like Yamaha,Korg & Roland hire people to record or create styles for their product (G70-PA-800_Tyros etc)..
But all the styles are created with midi...and as long as you use midi, you'll have limitations.Apegiations are midi based.

However,if your using audio tracks to create your styles, basically samples that respond to a midi map, in real time, than you could use samples from any sample library in the world. Copy the samples into the HD... call up that sample and play back in real-time.. You would have endless samples to choose from.
Ketron used audio with the SD1, the "live drums" are samples drum tracks of audio being streamlined with styles,all style parts are midi, except for drums. It's easy to do the drums, because they do not need to change key or respond to chord changes...

So I think Ketron's goal with the AUDYA,is the ability for audio to be incorporated with the styles, than have those audio tracks respond to midi changes (chord progressions) in real time.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/015227.html


Interesting to see donny's comment about navigation... Now what do you think of navigation my friend ?

Wasn't that a key selling point Dom was using with the MediaStation? Didn't he seek assistance from members here at one time for style writers to create audio/midi styles.., or has my memory just gone out completely?

Let's remember that most arrangers are Euope or Asia-based and only a slight nod goes to the American market. Notice the OR machines. Do you see any US machines?

I agree that styles are the major attraction and detraction of most arrangers. I would like more modern styles. Roland has done a pretty good job, but we still need more. I don't program unless I absolutely, positively have to. I hate it.

New arranger players will come from the same place we did. Most of us play or played in a group. As lives and egos go their separate ways, musicians who want to continue playing will find the aides they need to assist them.

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Cass Pawlowski - Detroit
www.cassponline.com/

Diki, I would start brushing up on those polkas if I were you.
Jim

Wow, one of those rare threads where there are excellent points in nearly every post (and with no animosity). Obviously, there is no single answer (what was the question?) but the point is, nobody is completely wrong (or completely right.....sorry, Diki ). My own personal problem with arrangers is that I have a really difficult time accepting them as legitimate instruments. I have much less of a problem with synths, including "workstations". When you can create music, not notes, not chords, but MUSIC, by pushing a button, it's hard to elevate it much beyond a very sophisticated ipod. This is not to say that I don't enjoy mine immensely, but I have never taken one out on a gig (although I had G800's, G1000's, I5M's, etc. at the time). To those people that CLAIM to play (exclusively) IN A BAND using left hand bass 98% of the time, I say, HORSES**T. If that was how you viewed the role of the keyboard in a BAND, then why not use a much cheaper and much more powerful, synth (in split kb mode).

As much as I'd like to believe that the secret to greater acceptance of arr. kb's is in the creation and production of better, more modern, more sophisticated, styles; I really don't think so. This would do nothing to legitimize the instrument, in fact, it could have the opposite effect. Let's face it; the ultimate arranger is the DJ station. The Arranger keyboard exists somewhere in the gap between acoustic instruments and mp3 players, and more sophistication moves it closer to the mp3 player. Next up....practice your lip-syncing, boys.

chas

Whoops, did I accidently kill this thread? Sorry.

chas

Chas, one thing I haven't noticed anyone addressing is that arrangers do NOT have to be only used by performers doing covers.
They are imo the best scratchpad for composing original material whether using preset styles, adapting/changing preset styles, or creating new styles from scratch.
As a composing tool arrangers should live forever.
I hope BeachBum is not the only one working on original tunes here. Have been waiting for others to start adding new things. It is my intention to do some composing sometime soon.
Jim

Not just the Korg PA1X, the Genesys has a fully editable synth engine and has a ton of samples that are great for modern music. And if you feel the need to use custom samples/loops, it can load samples and store them on the internal hard drive. Those samples and loops can be played directly from the keyboard or played back via sequencer and even used within a style. To be fair the on-board sample editing is far from sophisticated. However no one who is serious about doing their own sampling does it on a keyboard (no matter what kind it is) and instead does the sampling or at the very least the editing within a wave editor program on their computer.



If you take 5 musicians of similar age and ask them each to sequence a 4 bar pattern in the style of a particular genre, you will end up with 5 totally different feels. It is just not feasible to include enough styles that will appease everyone. This is why professional arranger/workstations exist; so the user can customize the instrument to their specific needs. This whole argument should be limited to the entry level arrangers that have no real in-depth editing capability. If you are using one of those instruments, then you have to live with your purchase. But if having styles and sounds that are appealing to you are that important, then buy a truly professional product and learn how to operate it.

*ADDED*
Uh, I didn't mean that last bit to sound sarcastic. The point I was making is there are plenty of opportunities to get exactly what you want to get from many instruments; it just takes time to learn what functions there are and how to put them to personal use. I like arranger keyboards, obvious since I work for a company that manufactures them. But I also rarely using a stock style (unless I am doing a workshop/concert/promotion for a dealer at which point I think it is only fair to use what the instrument offers out of the box). Even if it is just dropping some of the auto tracks out or adding my own style track here or there, it just makes sense to want to give my sound some individuality.

I won't go as far as to say that an arranger player is nothing more than a DJ. It still takes more knowledge to play a keyboard than it does to spin a dial on an iPod even if the person is just triggering single finger chords with the appendage of his or her choice. At least they have to know the key names or at the very least the colors red, green and blue for those playing out if ‘easy play’ song book.


Dave

[This message has been edited by WDMcM (edited 08-11-2007).]

Well, it WAS going along without any animosity....

Jim, I couldn't agree with you more. That is precisely how I've always used mine; that, plus the fun factor of just jamming with oneself. I will always have one, just probably not for gigging (don't do that much anymore anyway). And yes, I will admit, the more the sophistication, the higher the fun factor .

chas

chas, I'm just curious... given your apparent disdain for any use of the arranger in a 'legitimate' context (whatever THAT is!), why do you bother with them at all?

What do you use YOUR arranger for? And, if it is different from the way others might use theirs, do they have the right to call YOUR usage 'HORSESH*T'?

The reason I (and probably many others) use arrangers live is because they are DESIGNED for it. They aren't a studio tool masquerading as a live instrument. You take any major WS out on a 'call' gig (where you have no time in advance to create setups, patches, effects routings, etc.) and it quickly becomes a nightmare to call up splits and layers, with volumes and effects, quickly and efficiently. In the studio, under less time pressure, you can possibly achieve better end results, but find yourself on a gig and a song gets called where you need a steel drum patch layered with a marimba in the right hand, and a Rhodes/B3 layer in the left, with chorus on the Rhodes and a Leslie on the B3, the song will be half over before you have created this on a Motif or Triton.

I can do this in four bars (or less!) on a G70.

Secondly, familiarity with equipment is important on any type of gig. So a TOTL arranger, capable of going from close to WS capabilities in a full band situation (and VASTLY better setup time for patches), through LH bass and RH accompaniment (with the same speed advantage for patch selection in the RH), to LH bass/RH ACC using arranger drums (with their huge improvement over using drum machines with little live control) to full-on arranger accompaniment for the solo act, you only need ONE piece of kit to cover almost ANY situation. One piece of kit equals intimate knowledge of OS and soundset.

So, WHY use an arranger for LH bass gigs? Because I can use it for ALL my other live gigs as well. Unlike a WS, which has no accompaniment abilities at all, unless you pre-program them.

In the REAL world, most gigs are cover gigs of some kind. Very few make any decent kind of a living playing all original music live. Studio, yes, but that requires a whole different toolset to live. The problem is that arranger manufacturers refuse to design arrangers that work well for modern music, despite them STILL being the better tool for it in a live situation. Even hiphop and rap songs still have intros, different variations, breakdowns and, yes, even an ending occasionally...!

But loop based workstations provide little to be able to do this on-the-fly. The idea of IMPROVISING this is somehow thought to be the DJ's domain. Or a guy with a beatbox. But little needs to be done to arrangers to make them far more controllable for this task, AND still be usable as the synth/keyboard part of the music, too. But if arranger designers remain mired in providing auto-accompaniment ONLY for older, demographically less popular styles, they ARE going to go the way of the organ...

Dave, I'm sorry, but I still disagree with you about using a contemporary arranger for modern styles. There isn't an arranger out there with a fast enough load time for a sampler to be practical for live usage (MS excepted), and very little of most arranger's ROM sounds are practical for hiphop.

And I'm sorry, but put five musicians together and ask them to make a blues beat, or a rhumba, and you will get five different results. But it doesn't stop you from loading up arrangers with blues styles or latin styles, does it?

As I keep trying to point out, the 'hip' beat loops in workstations aren't magically lifted off of hit vinyl records. They are pieced together in a fairly similar fashion as TOTL styles are made... That is, by very talented, creative musicians, who get payed a lot of money for this ability (look at how poor most user styles are if you think making a great style is easy!)....

All the arranger manufacturers need to do is get these same creative, MODERN young players to create styles for arrangers, re-tool the soundsets to be a bit more contemporary, and you have the WS killer we all know they are capable of being.

I say again... the VAST majority of workstations do not end up in hit studios, making chart busters. They end up in the same place most arrangers do... In peoples homes, and bedroom studios, being used for self-entertainment (just like chas) and playing for or with a few friends. Occasionally, they end up in the hands of gigging pros and semi-pros, doing mostly cover and sometimes a little original music.

Probably well under .01% of WS's sold ever get on a major label (or even minor!) release. The myth that WS's are SERIOUS tools for serious musicians is (to quote chas ) HORSESH*T! The only reason they outsell arrangers is because arranger manufacturers refuse to try and make styles and soundsets relevant to todays younger musicians (who buy the VAST majority of keyboards).

But the majors don't make them buy a WS and then have to program ALL the beats they need... They are included (and few WS owners spend that much time programming new arps and beats, just like few arranger users program styles).

But somehow, magically, young arranger users are expected to do exactly that if they want to use them for modern music. Provide the styles, and they will come flocking to your door. Make them make their own, and they will go to WS's, where those beats ARE provided.

Simple as that....

Diki, Diki, Diki. Okay, pony poo, then; how about horsey caa caa? Listen, I don't hold arrangers in disdain, I just see them for what they really are; great tools for sketching out song ideas and secondly, for having lots of fun.

I spend loads of time with aspiring singer/songwriters and for getting his or her basic ideas down, it's teriffic. I have no problem with people using them to gig with but frankly (and this is incredib le), I have never seen one used on a gig. Not being a huge fan of amateur/semi-pro singers, I probably would not go to see an act that featured an arranger. Of course, this is JMO and is valid only for me.

Although I have pretty much retired from the active music scene (I really miss it), I was lucky enough to play two venues (as an emergency replacement) at the recent National Black Arts Festival here in Atlanta. Acoustic piano and 2 1/2 days rehearsal. Wasn't too bad but we were only able to do five tunes (that's all we could bring up to performance standards in that timeframe). Lots of great talent there, including Roberta Flack and Abdullah Ibrahim (Dollar Brand).

I've been going to a few local jazz/blues clubs in the past few months and it has definitely triggered the desire to do some lightweight gigging again; hence the Nord C1. Just drums and guitar; old Jimmy Smith, Groove Holmes, Jack McDuff type stuff. I think it's time for a resurgence of this type of music. I'm probably wrong. We'll see.

chas

Hmmm I hear a soft kind of distant voice saying... "If you play it, they will come"

Jim

I hope so, Jim. Unfortunately, the kind of clubs that would support this type of music usually can't afford to pay very much. This is okay for me but probably not the other musicians (younger and hungrier). It would be nice, however, to make enough to defray the cost of a new board. There are three such clubs right here in Roswell and two others in nearby Sandy Springs (both affluent suburbs of Atlanta) so we'll see.

chas

I've always felt there are two different things...

Playing music, and playing for money.

If you decide to choose a musical path few follow, and styles of music few pay to listen to, you can hardly complain that it brings you little money... If it is musically satisfying, and you are not really trying to make a living, what does it matter if it pays anything at all..?

And if you ARE trying to make money, why pick the most difficult way to do it? Play what the wealthy want to hear, and the money just rolls in. You can always play Jimmy Smith on your own time, for free... (lot easier to get a gig!)

But one thing worries me, chas (and please don't think this is out of disrespect... actually, you sound like one of the more experienced guys here), if you HAVEN'T got out and heard anyone gigging with a modern TOTL arranger, either in a full band situation, or smaller ensembles (down to solos), where do you get the impression that it is not legit?

Is it solely derived from your own usage, or do you have some real world experience to say it can't be done? Perhaps from listening to others do it? If you haven't been out and heard anyone on a good arranger (or anything else, apparently, for quite a while), what makes you so sure the are incapable of the job?

I've got a fully loaded K2500S sitting at my studio, with just about all the libraries they make. But I would NEVER take it out to a 'call' gig in preference to my G70. And, so far, not one single client has ever made a single disparaging remark about it's sound. The player is still 90% of the sound....

Close enough is close enough.

Very good discussion here.
One of the problems I see with arrangers is that when it comes to promoting and advertising the TOTL arrangers they only focus on some of the more traditional styles.

Sure there are some arrangers that are only good for those traditional styles, but there are others like the Korg PA1x pro and the Genesys that are fully capable of doing contemporary and hip sounding styles.

With the sound editing and sample playback on those boards a lot can be accomplished. But they are not advertised or promoted as creative machines for modern songs. They are mostly promoted for traditional styles with traditional sounds.

If it is just style play back that is needed, then a midrange arranger is sufficed. That is why a lot of persons are satisfied with the Yamaha PSR 3000 – 9000 and don’t need the Tyros 2.

But for a TOTL arranger style play back is a given but when you pay all that money for TOTL arranger, IMO, it should help foster creativity and integrate with other musical equipment.


But the manufactures advertise and promote a TOTL arranger the same way that they advertise and promote a midrange arranger. So persons would not se the purpose of a TOTL arranger.

Even when you get a TOTL arranger, some of the modern sounds and features are berried down in the menus (at least that is how it is on the Genesys).

One of the hidden secrets of an arranger is using styles to make beats. If you can think out side of the box and creating music is something one is able to do, I have found that an arranger with the style creation feature is good for making beats. I know I have gotten that response when I am making hiphop beats for people and I use the Genesys.


But manufactures don’t promote and advertise arrangers with that purpose in mind.


They may be doing that purposefully so as to have different markets for different boards. It would not be in the manufacturers best interest to have one keyboard for all.


A workstation could sound like an arranger with just traditional sounds and arps. But the manufacturers don’t promote them as that they use the most hip sounds and arps to promote the workstations.

The reason IMO that TOTL arrangers are very expensive (much more that a comparable workstation) is that they are not as many buyers for arrangers as they are for workstations. It is all about demand and supply. Lots of buyers, lower prices. Few buyers, higher prices.


Whether to make arrangers sounding more like workstations is the chicken and egg situation from the manufacture’s perspective.

Do they create a hip sounding arranger and promote it as such then try to get buyers? Or do they make sure that they have buyers for hip sounding arrangers then create the product?

Wow, rarely have I been so misquoted and misunderstood. That aside, I'm grateful that someone out there (who else) has the wisdom and intellect to know what's best for me better than I.



When did I say I hadn't been out much or at all? I've been to most of the major music venues in the Atlanta area (except Rock, C&W) and I have not seen an arranger. Mostly, there are 3-4 piece bands but some of the upscale lounges and piano bars feature singles (usually piano and vocals).

Another thing, I don't recall "complaining" about making little money. I don't think it's appropriate to discuss personal finances; suffice it to say that, as a retiree, I wouldn't be doing it for the money (therefore no need to compromise on what I want to play).

You seem to have latched onto this idea that I don't like arranger keyboards. Nothing could be further from the truth. I love my PA1x Pro; the Tyros2, not so much. For me, one is inspirational, the other is not. Still, I think a working pro could use either board equally sucessful. I never said they couldn't be used for gigging; I just said that I had never done it or seen one used on a gig. Obviously many members here use them professionally, including some guys that I KNOW can play (like Dave).

For me, I would feel very limited and constrained using an arranger keyboard in the traditional way, style play (including just bass and drums). Using it any other way (on a gig) could probably be better done with a traditional synth (my opinion). Not only me but the other guys (bandmates) would also be slaves to the automated play. When I play out, I want to play as a musician, with other musicians. I have now reached an age and status that I can afford to do just that.

Oh, and Diki; stop being so judgemental. I'm often guilty of that, which is why it is so easy for me to recognize a kindred spirit.

Despite not being a huge fan of Jimmy Buffet or the Beach Boys, I still luv ya', man .

chas

Sorry, chas... I came in and did that last post after being out in the heat (116ºF heat index yesterday!) playing from 1pm to 10pm... And I realize I seriously misread you! My apologies.

In a way, though, what you posted about getting out never seeing one on a gig "frankly (and this is incredible), I have never seen one used on a gig" really only goes to show how few players understand how good they CAN be... And I suspect the reason the majority of good younger players won't even give them a tryout in the store (if you could actually FIND them in the store!) is those banks and banks of ballroom and retirement home styles (that I don't ever use myself, either!) that would make any younger player run to the WS side of the store as fast as he can!

And he would never get an opportunity to realize he just passed up on a keyboard that for gigging live (unless he IS doing hiphop or strictly modern dance styles) is a far more practical keyboard that most WSs. But the minute he turns on the arpeggiator function on the Triton, or Motif, well, he HAS strayed into arranger country, hasn't he, chas? If playing with loops isn't playing strictly with other musicians, it's no more legit than an arranger...

I think all I've been trying to say is that, as WSs get more and more auto accompaniment features added (whether players choose to use them or not is up to them!), the arranger divisions are losing massive sales and the opportunity to resurrect their slowly dying industry by refusing to try to market an arranger to younger players. Take the best of what an arranger does (intuitive, instant control of arps/styles, and fast and convenient selection of tones and splits, etc.) and graft them onto the WS features that now exist.

Either they are going to do it, or the WS industry will... The MotifXS is harbinger of things to come. If the arranger industry refuses to compete, they will soon be gone like the home organ...

Once again, chas... sorry for the misunderstanding. "Post in haste, repent at leisure"

BTW, although yes, I do a handful of Jimmy Buffett (just another singer/songwriter as far as I am concerned!), we do NO Beach Boys (my falsetto isn't what it used to be!). But we also do tunes by Marvin Gaye, Otis Redding, The Temptations, The Drifters, Bob Marley, Jimmy Cliff, Maxi Priest, to name just a few... It isn't all crackers down here!

Sorry, but the market for hip sounding arrangers is already out there, and buying WSs at a rapid pace... Only to find that SELECTING and CONTROLLING all those hip arps live is a daunting task. Graft the Variation/Fill/Intro/Ending concept to these same hip loops, and you have a machine that is FAR more fun to play with (fun sells!).

If you feel the word 'arranger' is enough to stop the sale, don't call it an arranger! Call it something else. Anything else! It won't stop it from BEING an arranger...

The MotifXS and the M3 are the WS industry's first tentative steps into TOTL arranger country. You don't see the word 'arranger' anywhere in their promotional material. But that's what they are attempting. If the arranger industry, with decades more experience at how to control loops (that's all styles are, in a way) in a live situation can't make a profit from this trend, their executives should all be put on a wall and shot!

They can't even agree that the market even exists, despite all the WS people rushing in that direction.

Yes Diki ....in theory your points all make sense...gearing arrangers to a younger market ...BUT, here is where the problem lies as I see it.....years ago it was more prevalent to actually take lessons & PLAY an instrument....but that has since faded extremely with the advent of computer technology with so many OTHER ways of making music which has taken the younger audience of musicians to Branch Out in so many multiple branches with different opportunities to make music that WE didn't have as they IN stead of making to commitment & effort to take years of their time to learn how play they instead go in so many other directions which dribbles down to less interest in using an arranger KB vs the other avenues out there.....just having younger geared styles is NOT going to sway them vs the Gear that being used to make today's style music. So to recap its either learn to play? or push a few buttons?

Chas...Jimmy Smith...Richard "Groove" Holmes?
Man if you've ever been "there" (and you obviously have), you get it.

If you haven't played that style, or at least been an been an avid listener, you don't.

What a wonderful part of music history. If I could, I wouldn't do anything else, and that includes lugging around a B-3 (house jobs only).


R.

This IS a nice discussion. To bad it's a classic "hijack". Sorry, Ted. BTW, I agree with the gist of what Donny was saying; push all the buttons you want, but ONLY after you've learned to legitimately play.

chas

Yes, Donny and chas, but remember, workstations are not being bought by players who can't PLAY (they buy grooveboxes, software and MPCs, etc.).

As bad as we might think things are, there IS a younger generation of keyboard players out there, and they ARE buying WSs in FAR greater numbers than we are buying arrangers!

And chas, just to encourage you... most of the young keyboard players I have seen recently are playing organs and old Wurlis and Rhodes (or Nord clones) as well as WSs. The 'jam band' circuit is doing very well, and has it's roots in older bands like the Funky Meters, Grateful Dead and the like, with a heavy emphasis on Hammond sounds.

Now, you probably don't go out and seek these kinds of bands to listen to (most of us beat a quick retreat from any club without a single customer over 30!), but they ARE there... Google 'Galactic' band from N.O. to get a taste...

And, just like us in our younger days, they are into playing with real rhythm sections, etc.. In all fairness, we with our arrangers are FAR more 'button pushers' than they are!

Don't give up on them yet....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Anthony Johnson:
[B]There is very serious ommision on both the SD3 module & the SD5 keyboard - no USB to Device port, for a flash drive or external Hard Drivenowadays.
Anthony.

We at CMC Dist are very aware of this issue of no USB. To at best correct it We at no charge include in the SD3 2 cables which can directly connect the SD3 to a computer USB

Ted