Since Dom obviously can't do it, I got a friend in Israel to send me a short demo he did with his MS.

Dom, you better give me a good price when this thing comes out...
www.simchatunes.com/music/MSversanostyle1.mp3

Probably the best one I've heard to date..... Anyone else with an MS care to post some demos..???

Any details of what VSTi's, style sources, etc.?

What's the problem now Diki? You asked for a Mediastation demo and Chony supplied one that has very good audio quality. From personal experience I can tell you this demo doesn't show the true dynamic range of the Mediastation which is very broad. That's the problem with any online demo and why I reserve final judgment of an instrument until I actually play one in person. A concept you can't seem to grasp Diki.

It seems to me you thrive on negativity and chaos. You were probably the bully at school who always picked fights who never grew up.

Amazing Style and sounds. That guitar lead was awesome and talk about live drums.

Thanks I really enjoyed that.

------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Is that guitar track played in an arranger LIVE? As opposed to "recorded and then manipulated via MS controls before mixing in the song">

Ensnareyou, it's a legitimate question...

When a product IS as 'open' as an MS, the sound sources used vary drastically from user to user, and can often run you hundreds, if not thousands of dollars ABOVE the instrument's already very high price to stock up on.

Add to that it's audio loop playing capabilities, and it gets hard to tell what's the MS, and what's the add-ons.

And, finally, to explain... I have never said the MS COULDN'T be made to sound great. It is just that so few manage it. The technical and artistic skills to pull off a great demo on one of these things seem FAR beyond the average player, as witnessed by the fact you have to go to an obscure Israeli musician to produce the FIRST decent demo I've yet heard, and to be honest, other than the guitar part (whatever that is) STILL doesn't really stand head and shoulders above any other TOTL arranger's sound, IMO.

How many of these things has been sold, by now..? And this is the only thing you can find? No offense, guys, but if this is how the MS sounds OOTB, you'd have thought that there would be a flood of stuff out there as good, if not better. Maybe even some western music (and I don't mean country!)

This is the thing that puzzles me. As strongly as it's advocates here evangelize it, and claim it's utter superiority over all others, this doesn't translate to a flood of good user demos. Or factory ones. What's the hold-up?

You see, it's this kind of thing that drags down the forum, not the frank and open discussion of arrangers.

The last resort of those with nothing to convincingly debate is personal attack and slander.

You see, I don't NEED to criticize you personally. You're not the reason I come here. Talking about ARRANGERS is supposed to be the focus here. And, I'm sorry, but if you can't tell the difference between a frank and open criticism of a musical instrument and a personal attack, you need to get a life!

I swear, if all the MS fanboys had put HALF the time they've spent slandering me into making a few decent demos, I would have nothing to criticize. There WOULD be a plethora of great demos out there, and we wouldn't be even having this debate!

But, as I suspect, it is FAR easier to come here and spout vitriol, than it is to actually MAKE a decent demo. But, once again, feel free to come here, and waste your time attacking me personally (or even just stick to discussing arrangers) rather than make some great music on your MS.

You prove my point for me...

Well if I owned a mediastation, no matter how good it sounds, I would not post a demo in this forum. With all the negative uninformed comments by the detractors I would not want to post a demo because people minds have already been made up about the sound quality of the mediastation. On top of all that there is a lack of understanding of the concept of the mediastation. Then you have to think persons may not appreciate the style of music.
By Dom’s comments about sales, the majority of mediastation owners probably do not play popular North American or English music so some one in the US would probably not understand why the player would find the demo great.
So I can understand why the owners of the mediastation would not want to post a demo after reading post on this forum.
Remember people with T2s G70s and other arrangers are also reluctant to put of demos because of the unwarranted harsh comments on this forum.

pardon me for asking the question, but which part of this demo is the MS. The drums are not any kind of arranger pattern that i can recognise, the bass is not an arranger loop pattern.

Just before everyone starts getting silly over the MS let me explain that nothing that i hear in his demo was from any arranger . Its clearly a very good sequenced track and very likely a real drummer has been used . Certainly the drumming was not programmed by hand like you would ceate a pattern on an arranger. What this demo proves is that you can use the MS like a straight synth workstation.


Please tell me that did not surprise anyone ?

Whta i have been saying and what Diki has been saying all along (and this demo changes nothing) is that the MS is a poor arranger and the sounds it comes shipped with doesnt make it sound any better. Now forgive me for being specific but can someone please provide a good demo of the MS being used as an arranger. If this demo was an exammple please ask the gentleman who made it to come on this site and tell us how he did it. I promise i will be respectful and couteous to him.

I wasn't sure what Lionstracs Italy was so I took a peek at there website. For me it looks like a very complicated keyboard, but it sounds very good. I listened to some of the demos and I actually found some of the Ketron Intros, and the couple of the saxs are named the same as the Ketron. Did these guys copy Ketron Italy. IMO, I would still take a Ketron over this keyboard, looks very confusing.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 09-11-2008).]

Those drums don't sound like a live drummer that was recorded but it is possible. To me it sounds like just some great programming from a very good keyboard player. It's very possible that the person who made the demo did a custom style as well (something others here can't seem to grasp). Why is it when someone does post a decent demo on the Mediastation everyone comes forward saying it requires thousands of dollars in additional VST's or that the parts were real players and not actually played from the Mediastation? Let me reiterate this again folks... the Mediastation has some great factory sounds and just because other demo's you've heard weren't consistent with this new demo, don't be fooled into thinking the Mediastation isn't a TOTL instrument. The Mediastations capabilities are far more vast than people here give it credit for.

No ensnare you, please dont misunderstand me. I liked the demo, but i program music on my keyboard all the time. Those drums were not programmed on the keyboard. I have been programming drums for a long time as i use nothing else than my keyboard , no external tools at all. That base pattern does not loop. listen to the demo again. If those drums come shipped with the MS then dom needs to do all his demo's again using those drms and not the ones he currently has used.

I am not knocking the MS as a workstation and if you check my posts you will see that has never been my issue. My isue has always been that the MS has been marketed as the mother of all arangers. It simply isnt. this demo does not convince me that this was any arranger style either on the MS or actually programmed on the MS or is in fact any arranger style at all. If i am the only one that thinks this then i am astonished...

I have contacted this guy from Israel and I get this reply:

Ciao
I install the kontakt vsti on MS and I open it in the vst host.
all my own loops and the sound that you herd in the demos are from the kontakt..
thanks
versano

For me seem also programmed under one Seq and then added the Voice tracks.

I don't know if have used http://ardour.org/ or the Qranger under SEQ mode.

the problem under the MS is that are installed a lot of music tools and I really don't know what my clients prefert to use.
The MS can be used for Live gig's and also for home DAW recording studio.

I will indagate more about this posted demo too.

so it wasnt arranger play ......They were not MS sounds

[This message has been edited by Spalding 4 (edited 09-12-2008).]

yes and??
Is the MS fault if someone choose to use the kontakt sounds instead of the 34Gb FREE giga library installed?
If they also choose to play the sequence/styles with the Qranger, or Ardur or Rosengaden or Muse...

Important for me that this all sounds come OUT from the Ms audio outputs and not from some external device.
Free included MS sounds or commercial sounds I don't care at all, the MS will play it and the sounds are processed from the MS!

I can say the same: the Big pipe wave sound loaded in the T2/PA ( not available from factory)they were NOT from the T2/PA!

So..where is the diference?? You can maybe download all of this embedded sounds somewhere for Free?? For sure not from one commercial web site...
Or maybe...if you will load on your embeded keyboards this all new sounds it mean that the onboard ROM sounds are so bad??
IF not, then i suggest to remove the all sampler engine from this keyboard because the sounds inclueded are enough and Top class forever.
Ask to the all others brands to remove the sampler..you don't need at all..


[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 09-12-2008).]

Spalding, for that matter, I don't use a single style that came with my Tyros 2 or Pa2x. Every style I use is preprogrammed using live electric drums, and it does not sound looped.

They were sounds played on the Mediastation, its not like the sounds produced and played themselves. We don't know yet if the backing was a custom style the user created or if they were sequences done on the MS. Either way the sounds, drums, and files were played on the Mediastation.

Would you question the Tyros 3 if I sequenced music on it and used some custom samples or custom voices I created myself on the Tyros 3? I'll bet you wouldn't. The advantage the Mediastation has is the ability to utilize so many different sound sources that most arrangers lack. Why knock that technology rather than embrace it?

I'd question it if the T3 COULDN'T sound good UNTIL you had loaded up those fancy VSTi's....

That's the difference, IMO.

None of the OOTB demos make me sit up (so much for 34GB!). If the T3 sucked until YOU did all the hard work, just how many do you think they would sell?

That's right... about as many as the MS.

for sure they will sell a LOT!
and when you there are then bored to use always the same new 9 SA2 sounds, they come out with the new T4..10 new sounds again and you have to spend another 4000 $ for replace the new hardware,simple.
For sure this is the best way for make milions $ and offer you there the same candy in another new case.

I prefer then to buy and hold one G-70, just ROM sounds and midi based system. Do not have to fight to request new features because the hardware is limited to this specific use only.

The trick is, the hardware and sounds don't HAVE to be upgraded for a T3/G70?PA2Xpro to already sound impressive.

The MS, in the opinion of many here (based on hearing the factory demos), DOES...

I'll take 3-400MB of world class, carefully crafted, fine tuned sample ROM over 34GB of mismatched, second-class slung together stuff any day. An arranger is the gestalt of all it's parts. Sounds and styles and OS acting as one. A weakness in any one area (yet alone two) can bring it's usefulness OOTB crashing down, and force you to spend months of work and many thousands of dollars in VSTi's to fix the problem (if you have the considerable skill needed to fix the problem which few, IMO, do).

Most of us want to buy a car, not BUILD it... We are drivers, not engineers. Future expansion is a wonderful thing, but only if it comes built on a foundation of already acceptable performance, especially at THOSE prices. When you start out costing more than a T3, one expects it to ALREADY sound better than the poor 'closed' arranger, and then you build from there. Not have to build from the ground up just to attempt to equal the 'closed' system...

"They were sounds played on the Mediastation, its not like the sounds produced and played themselves. We don't know yet if the backing was a custom style the user created or if they were sequences done on the MS. Either way the sounds, drums, and files were played on the Mediastation.

Would you question the Tyros 3 if I sequenced music on it and used some custom samples or custom voices I created myself on the Tyros 3? I'll bet you wouldn't. The advantage the Mediastation has is the ability to utilize so many different sound sources that most arrangers lack. Why knock that technology rather than embrace it?"

There are so many problems with your logic Ensnare you but here is one that i am sure you will follow using my logic

The MS is marketed here as an arranger right ?

Which part of that demo was done using the aranger ? put another way , do you think any of those instruemts in the demo were following chords or were they do you think recorded linearly like a raditional sequenced peiece of music ? If the author tried to play the piece using minor chords or diminished chords like say .........AN ARANGER...would it sound any different ? COULD HE REPLAY THIS PIECE IN SECONDS USING DIFFERENT STYLES LIKE AN ARRANGER ???

Please escuse the shouting but i dont know how to point out to you and others the major problem with the MS Arranger Keyboard.

Noone is questioning the MS ability to play a VST. Thats what its designed for, if it couldnt do this NOONE would buy it.

But if you market this instrument to arranger players , what single most importnat function do you think it must do well, over and above its ability to simply facilitate other companies expensive VST's ???

When you've worked that out , then you and Dom and the Wersi contingent will understand why i cant justify purchasing this "technically potentially " ahead of the game synth/workstation.

Actually i cant wait for you to work it out because i fear that you simply wont see it :-) ITS STYLES, STYLES, EASE OF USE, STYLES, INTUITIVENESS, STYLES , USER FRIENDLINESS , OHHH AND GRET PROFESSIONAL STYLES. AND DID I MENTION STYLES ??? (thats english humor -dont be offended)

Thats why Dom is so far off the mark with the MS. He simply does not have the first clue what the aranger community wants in an arranger keyboard and your encouragement and others for him to continue to make empty and laughable boasts about this instrument being the best arranger is just so very very misplaced and misjudged. And i say that with genuine respect for you as an individual and a fellow musician.

Let me say just one more thing. ASk Dom what updates or technological upgrades has he done in the last year to make the ARRANGER FUNCTION better and then compare that to what he has done to make he PRO SYNTH/WORKSTATION better. This wil tell you who his instrument is geared towards. He is just trying to pick up some additional wild card purchases by sucking in some unsuspecting (gullible) arranger cutomers. I cant blame him. If people are using their ears and still want an MS as an arranger after the last 3-4 years big talk from Dom and poor demos then really they deserve to have every penny taken from them.

I admire doms determination and i genuinely wish him luck. He most certainly will need it to crack the arranger market with this product in its current form.




[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 09-12-2008).]

"Spalding, for that matter, I don't use a single style that came with my Tyros 2 or Pa2x. Every style I use is preprogrammed using live electric drums, and it does not sound looped."

Hi Chony. I respect anyone that has a go creating their own styles. I have done a few myself, well more than a few actually.One thing i know is that to produce a good style that does not sound repetitive takes many hours work. For examle with my PA1X i can have up to four variations within one style. Plus two intros,two, fills and one break fill and two endings. I am sure you will understand the work that it takes to produce one full style. Then with the PA1X i can program additional variations, up to six i think) within each variation of the same style based upon the type of chord i am triggering, ie, major7th minor 7th, diminished chords, 6th chords etc. So that up to six subtle variations within each of the 4 major variations. Now thats a lot of potential work ! Now think about the numbers of styles i might need to cover the genres of music that i perform regularly, thats gospel, soul, funk, blues and jazz. How long would it take to program from scratch all those tyles to an acceptable standard ??? I hope you didnt buy the T2 without any intention to use the built in preprogrammed styles because thats not great value for your money.

The Mediastation is marketed as a workstation/arranger and its arranger capabilities exceed that of all except the Wersi. What many people on Synthzone don't understand is the power the Mediastation and the Wersi have to produce styles you can't realize on the likes of Yamaha, Korg, or Roland. It's a lack of forward thinking and understanding that cause confusion as to what can and can't be done with these types of instruments.

You ask if a style that sounds like the MS demo from Chony's friend can be created on the Mediastation and played live. Absolutely! Like Chony, myself, and a few other users on this forum, we don't use canned styles for our music we custom make them. Yes my friends, we actually create our own music, our own styles, and most often our own sounds. Sure it takes more time to create a custom style or sound but what's the point of creating ones own music if you can't even create your own style? The whole point is to be unique and make you sound like you, not every other guy who has the same instrument that you do.

If more people would actually utilize their instrument to its full potential rather than just be a button presser or "knob jockey", then there wouldn't be as many people here complaining about the capabilities of their instrument or lack thereof.

Actually I did. I don't perform Western music, so I bought the T2 for its sounds and features. Once in a while I'll use a Ballad or Polka from the T2. The truth is in my studio I use everything from Jazz to country to funk. But for wedding performances, it's all my own...

Chony

Actually, yes I would... If I heard a style or sound that was outstanding, and hadn't heard any factory demo that showed off that style or sound, you bet I would be curious about where that came from!

That's the problem in a nutshell. The MS factory demos are so lackluster that when you DO hear something good, you are immediately cautious about what was used to make it. We are already painfully aware that you can use VSTi's on the MS, and the sky's the limit to what you can do with those. And so is the budget! A world class piano VSTi, about $300, a world class drum VSTi, about $400, a world class symphonic library, anywhere from $1000 up to $5000+, and so on, and so forth.

Load the MS up with sounds that hands down beat a T3 OOTB or a PA2Xpro/G70, etc., and you could easily double the price of the hardware. But from listening to the factory demos, the impression that everyone tends to get is that, without those expensive extras, you are quite hard pressed to find anything that even equals the T3 OOTB...

Look, here's an analogy for you....

Dom has a Corvette. A VERY fast, great handling, easy to drive sports car, very reasonably priced compared to most super-cars, built by a proven major manufacturer. NOT a exotic kit car from an unproven manufacturer, at three times the price that, until you put a LOT more money into it, and install everything yourself (IF you have the skill as a great mechanic), can't even perform as well as the Corvette.

Don is a practical man when it comes to sports cars (and he comes from the land of Ferrari and Lamborghini!), a man that realizes he neither has the money or the mechanic skills to put together a car himself that out-drives the Corvette.

Sadly, he doesn't understand that most of us arranger players feel exactly the same way about arrangers. We'd rather have something that was a great drive OOTB, than put together a kit car that MIGHT (with time and skill and luck and LOTS more money) go a bit faster. Especially as the Corvette's of arrangers go pretty much fast enough for us already!

Does that get through...?

Diki,

Actually your point doesn't get through because there's one thing you are missing and just seem to overlook even though I've reiterated it time and time again. OOTB the Mediastation has some fantastic sounds and it DOES NOT require the user to buy additional VST's or sample libraries for it to compete with other instruments. The VST and Sample load and play functions are but icing on the cake. Once you realize that then you'll get the point. The Wersi is the same way except Wersi's factory sounds are better than most every arrangers as they should be. With nearly 1 GB of factory sounds they'd better be good otherwise Wersi spent all that time developing sounds for nothing.

I realize that Lionstracs factory demo's are weak and only a few showcase the MS's sound capabilities. On the other hand having personally heard and played the Mediastation I know exactly what its capabilities are and they far exceed what you and others believe them to be. Perhaps in time you'll see and hear the true sound of the instrument but for now many people seem to be content bashing the Mediastation without ever having played one.

To be honest, even from user demos I can get a pretty accurate impression of the T2/G70, etc..

Trouble is, almost NONE of the MS users (just how many of them are out there by now?) seem either willing or capable of showing this apparent 'fact'. Somehow, we HAVE to take them at their word, because no-one appears willing to SHOW US....

'Perhaps in time' is entirely up to YOU (all you MS owners). We can wait forever (and, of course, the longer that wait is, the fishier it all smells), but without a solid base of user OOTB demos, it is unreasonable to expect anyone to take such an opinion based on anecdote alone.

Personally, I wouldn't trust ANYONE'S opinion about any of the main TOTL arrangers. This isn't me just ganging up on the MS. If virtually NO T2 owners were willing to provide an OOTB demo or three, without actually playing the instrument I would be unwilling to accept just their WORD, either. Especially if, firstly, the factory demos sucked, and I had to cross a continent to get to sit at one!

But that is not a problem with them... No-one seems shy about posting a plethora of user recordings. And the factory demos show that they are capable of making music close (within their skill level) to the level of the factory demos. So, when a T2 owner goes 'trust me, this thing sounds great!', truth is, I don't HAVE TO....

I may not have PLAYED an MS (who can, over here?) but I sure have listened to them a lot (just about everything out there). So far, it's not enough to engender the 'trust' you seem so desperately to need. For as little effort as it should surely take (I made and posted an OOTB demo of my G70 in fifteen minutes, one time), why not PROVE it to us instead of constantly begging for 'faith'.

Even Jesus raised the dead, once! He didn't simply say 'well, I COULD have done that IF I had wanted to', and left it at that Even faith needs a little help, now and again...

"You ask if a style that sounds like the MS demo from Chony's friend can be created on the Mediastation and played live. Absolutely! Like Chony, myself, AND A FEW OTHER USERS ON THIS FORUM, we don't use canned styles for our music we custom make them. Yes my friends, WE ACTUALLY CREATE OUR OWN MUSIC,OUR OWN STYLES, AND MOST OFTEN OUR OWN SOUNDS . Sure it takes MORE TIME TO CREATE A CUSTOM STYLE OR SOUND BUT WHAT'S THE POINT OF CREATING ONES OWN MUSIC IF YOU CANT EVEN CREATE YOUR OWN STYLE ? The whole point is to be unique and make you sound like you, not every other guy who has the same instrument that you do."

I hope you re-read your post again Ensnare you and you will see the glaring hole in your logic and apparentlY Doms. For clarity i have put in capitals the relevant sections.

but to make absolutely clear that you dont miss it

1. You and a few friends that create your own styles are NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF USERS OF ARRANGERS IN THE ARRANGER MARKET

2. Most arranger players dont have the time or the inclination to make their own sounds or styles, or the skill for that matter.(it is a greater skill than just playing a keyboard well)
3. Your last qoute is the clincher "WHAT'S THE POINT OF CREATING ONES OWN MUSIC IF YOU CANT EVEN CREATE YOUR OWN STYLE ?

Tens of thousands of units of arranger keyboards have been sold world wide to people who are not able or have no intersts or time to create heir own styles....and yet they buy arranger keyboards over a traditional synthworkstation. Here's a tip for both you and Dom.......

Why dont you ASK THEM WHY THEY BOUGHT THE ARRANGER THAT THEY BOUGHT RATHER THAN TELL THEM WHAT THEY SHOULD BUY ?

Its called marketing. Ask Dom to go look the word up.....its been fun debating with you :-)



[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 09-12-2008).]

OK, now Ensnareyou will come back and say don't knock it till you try it, and Diki will say I don't have to try it to know, and Ensnareyou will say Don't knock it till you try it, and Diki will say I don't have to try it to know, and ensareyou will say don't knock it till you try it, and Diki will say I don't have to try it to know.....

Well said!!

I think alot of people would do well to read this post more than one to really understand it.
But if you do not understand the consept of the mediastation, that post would not make any sense.


Perhaps a definition of arranger needs to be worded?

I think Dom knows who is his market very well. It is not the T2 market who is the passive arranger market, but the PA2x Motif market who actively use alot of the features of their arranger. Those people integrate styles, sequences, audio files to get the job done.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-12-2008).]

The reason I don't ask them "why" they bought their arranger is because most of them didn't buy their arranger because they aren't older than twelve! The reality is most arranger keyboards are sold to parents who buy them for their kids. The remainder of arranger purchases are made by older people who buy them as a hobby instrument for their home. The arranger is the organ of yesteryear. The number of people who actually use arrangers professionally is so small that no manufacturer would make an arranger if that's the only niche they had.

In Europe arrangers are more well received and used professionally more often than abroad but even that market is so very small that without little Billy and Katie's mom or dad buying arrangers, arranger sales would cease to exist.

If you believe that Yamaha, Korg, or Roland is selling tens of thousands of TOTL arrangers you'd be dead wrong. The majority of sales are low to mid priced instruments sold as first time keyboards for small children and the geriatric crowd. Be it an arranger or any other keyboard in the $3K+ market sales are not astronomical. If you look at the sales figures of high end instruments sold few if any have ever achieved sales status of 5000 units let alone tens of thousands. Ask George Kaye, Frank, or DanO if they've ever sold or heard of anyone selling 5000 or more high end arrangers and I'll bet I know the answer. A resounding NO!

I've sold high end pro audio gear for many years and from personal experience I can tell you selling any product be it keyboard, guitar, microphone, or recorder that costs anywhere beyond $2,000.00 is nearly impossible. Most people would sooner have a colonoscopy than part with $2,000.00.

I can't believe that no-one with an MS gives a damn about proving me wrong!

Back when I got my G70, there were a lot of negative comments about the OOTB sound of it. Some quite hostile. I COULD have simply stated my opinion, over and over ad nauseam about how I disagreed with their view.

Instead, I took a whole 15 minutes of my precious time and simply made a random OOTB demo. Random style, all OTS's no edits, nothing. It changed quite a few people's minds, and at least provided something objective to talk about, an example to refer to, if you will...

Am I just a nut job, with nothing better to do, or is something fishy about how few MS owners are prepared to do as little work to provide more than simple anecdote?

BTW, here it is: http://www.roland-arranger.com/smf/index.php?topic=150.msg692#msg692 - so come on, you MS owners. Better this with OOTB sounds and styles. As good as you say the MS is, this should be a walk in the park!

I have DONE discussing this issue. I have shown you mine...

SHOW ME YOURS, or just give it a rest. Please... (for all our sakes)

AMEN!

Diki nice demo but a bit dated......why not post another with some of your tweaks..& please include trumpet & brass this is what I didn't like on the G70 if you can & a few different styles.

Thanks

Diki....also I dont want to be like others who just talk & I dont want you to be out here alone ...so here was my Korg PA800 first "out of the box demo" also from last year without any tweaks, pedals, etc, just played as is..
http://tinyurl.com/3h4auy

it wasnt long afterwards Zuki saved me from the KB




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-13-2008).]

It's not an OOTB demo if you tweak first, Donny

And it being dated is EXACTLY the point..! I'm not doing this just now to prove a point in this discussion. I did it ages ago, when I first got my G70. It didn't take years to make me post something, I was more than happy with the sound OOTB, and quite pleased to show it.

Why don't MS users feel the same way?

And to the Genesys... Every day you play in public, you are facing exactly the same issues. Somebody (whether they speak up or not) is not going to like your playing. But does that stop you? And, you know what? I don't think I can remember the last time anyone posted something good here that WASN'T praised... Sure, they'll often engender technical questions (like the Israeli MS demo, which turned out to not be an arranger demo after all), but in fairness, good demos get the kudos they deserve here.

We're a critical bunch, for sure, but praise AND criticism seem to be mostly (except from rabid fanboys, and who takes anything THEY say seriously in the first place? ) reasonably accurate. Show me a first class demo from a user, and I will sing it's praises regardless of what machine it was made on. I have no axe to grind when SHOWN I'm wrong. I simply refuse to be persuaded without a shred of example.

OTOH, there have been some pretty terribly demos up from time to time. If at all possible, I do my level best to ignore the playing, and try to concentrate on the SOUND alone, but some demos make this hard to do (they'll usually drown out the arranger in their awful RH!). I have learned to simply not say anything about these.

But put up a great MS demo, or a Wersi one, that sounds real, dynamic and exciting, and I am the FIRST to give it it's due. My problem isn't with the 'open' arrangers per se. My problem is with the FACT that, despite lavish fanboy praise from their owners, this does NOT translate to any decent demos from their proud papa's.

Some of these owners have fairly impressive resumés. So musical proficiency shortcomings and their resultant shyness shouldn't be a factor, you would think. So what IS the holdup? The longer it goes on, the fishier it all smells, and the harder it is to take the fanboys' gushing seriously.

Here one new Qstyle with the all giga sound demo abd B4II ASIO..is only a demo..I can not play so well like you there... if you criticize..i don't care. http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/qranger/styles/Mistydemo.mp3


cheers

Dom,

I think we can safely say that the MS is not a keyboard for people who want an Out Of The Box arranger. It is more of a workstation that has to be customized from step 1.

If you're very talented you can make it sound better than any other board out there. If you're not, don't even try - just stick with Roland, Korg or Yamaha. Unfortunately, what you have put together in your demo, does not do justice to what the true power of this machine is. Big pity. I did not hear one thing on your demo that cannot be done better by Yamaha, Korg or Roland. If you give me one for free I'll make you some decent demos.

The MS the way it is now, is only for an extremely small group of people...

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 09-14-2008).]

And let the bashing begin.

Its apparent that the person playing the demo has a part to play in whether the demo sounds good or not.
Look we have had two demos of the mediastation one of them which got comments like -------unbelievable that is not a keyboard producing those drums----- and the other we will probably get comments like -----my G70 and T2 can do that------.
Mediastation is in a lose lose situation if you have a demo that is good showing off the mediastation’s real use, you get request to take it down to a T2 or G70 standard. And when mediastation takes it down to the T2 and g70 standard, you get comments like -------my G70 and T2 can do that and much better------.


BTW it amazes me as to why would someone want to buy a mediastation with its innovative features to buy it based on OTB styles and sounds.
I can understanding buying a T2 G70 for that reason because what you get on the keyboard is what you get and no more. There is no way to drastically change the T2 or G70 with features, sounds or styles.


If you are judging the mediastation from the OTB online demos, then you are demonstrating that you are missing and not understanding the point and concept of the mediastation.
Dom’s real markets for the mediastation are the Korg PA2x and Motif SX market.
The people who are creative and want a synth/workstation with arranger technology. If you haven’t been paying attention, arrangers and workstations have been steeling features from each other and IMO there will be a convergence of workstations and arrangers and audio players to where you will not be able to make an absolute distinction between them.

Dom’s biggest problem is not with the product but with Language and marketing.
People do not want to know the technical details of the product.
He needs to have some one who can adequately explain how the product can be beneficial to his potential customers. Then he needs to have some one put up online demos that would impress his potential market.

Also, he would need to explain the ease it takes to customize the product to the
customer’s liking.


Its all about MARKETTING and strategic placement of your product----- that is how the big three are doing it.


If you don’t believe me, analyze how Yamaha is hyping the T3 even if it has nothing ground-breaking. Take a look at how Korg is marketing the PA2x OS upgrade. Compare those two examples with how Roland first marketed the G70 and where they place the G70 )in places where you could not get them in the U.S) and note the negative effect it had.

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-14-2008).]

[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 09-14-2008).]

The misty demo:
what is a Qstyle? Is this supposed to be using a style then? Because if it is, I'd sure like to know how it does voice leading in the bass and such. Also, it is a very loose style if it is a style.

Sound: Why with a keyboard of this magnitude would we still be hearing mono sampled pianos, mono sampled strings, and mono sampled drums? These are all supposed to be giga sounds?

Good point Rory. What exactly are you recording this music into Dom? In other words, did you record it through a computer sound card into software like Sound Forge, etc? Or did you record this just using a single mono output on the MS into possibly a portable recording device?

Or are all these sampled instruments sampled in Mono only?

Thanks Dom..

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 09-14-2008).]

What's more important is to listen PAST the playing, and try to concentrate on that style. Does ANYONE here think that it swings? Would anyone here use that style if it was in their arranger? I certainly wouldn't.

And Genesys, you definitely have a point. Who, in their right minds, that would buy an arranger would buy an MS..? It isn't an arranger. It is a WS with arranger features, but little in the way of content or sounds even compared to a Big 3 WS, either. And, (once again bringing up the point) although you COULD make unbelievably good music on it, where are these recordings? Who actually HAS?

You can listen to the radio every day and hear MotifXS patches, FantomG patches, Oasys patches, M3 patches. And you know that these patches ARE Big 3 patches, because a) you heard some of them on the factory demos, and b) you heard them from being able to play the darn things in the local store.

It's all well and good to say you COULD make great music on an MS, but without proof and example, it's all theoretical. I could tell you all that if I go outside the house, and stick my arms up in the air, I will take off like Superman! And as long as no-one asks to actually SEE me do it, why shouldn't it be true?

Because you are all not fools, that's why!

Dom has come to a forum of hardcore arranger users. And claimed the MS can fly like Superman (in effect). But so far, little in the way of any proof. Maybe if Superman picked it up and flew, that's about the only way it can...

It sure seems to need a Superman of a keyboard player/programmer to do so, and they sure don't seem to have been the guys actually buying the MS...

And lastly, one has to worry about the health of a company that is SO strapped for cash-flow that they can't even spare ONE unit to be loaned out to a first-call demo maker (like those on the Yamaha demos). If you are running that close to margin, it doesn't take much to go under. I understand his clients may be clamoring for orders to be filled (although why he is almost giving some of those X76's away doesn't seem to bear out the 'I can't spare one for a good demo-er' bull), but he'd have a LOT more orders to fill if he spared one from the line to make the demos that might actually prove the product's worth.

I hope that things ARE going well for Dom. The more competition, the better. But a lot of things leave you scratching your head and going 'WTF is he thinking?'

sorry
I have exported the wav file un mono mp3...
I have used VHWave edit for record in realtime the master out but then I had forget to give the all export parameter setups: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/qrangerpic/waveedit1.jpg

I will remake and upload again
sorry

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 09-14-2008).]

Yes I agree that in some respect you must get pass the playing to evaluate the sounds and styles.
But the player has a great part in helping the listener appreciate the sounds and styles.
If you had someone play a T2 SA voice but did not know how to play and use techniques that would exploit the SA technology, the sound would sound like an average voice.

If the player does not have good coordination between left hand and right hand and chooses the correct playing technique for a particular style, it will give the listener a negative experience with the style.

Take Diki’s demo of the G70 for example. Although the choice of style was random and no preparation was made before playing, as a skill and talented musician, he knew what was appropriate to do on that style.

He knew when to play busy and when to play sparsely so that the style would be appreciated.
I am quite confident, someone else could have done the same thing as Diki did on the G70, and not do a good job of it.


And yes the mediastation is an arranger in the same way the T2 and G70 is. It is just that the mediastation is geared to a different arranger market.

I had to bring this up, sorry but this is what i call PLAIN BS!!! I agree with DIKI 101%.
This has nothing to do with MS, it is all Loops and in sequenecer, this has nothing
to do with an arranger either, stop being ladies and worry about each other feelings
but lets be real. We are talking about an arranger in here...want me to kill all of your
synths in 15 seconds demo??? Yes, i will use my 30 000$ ProTools system, hire
few guitarsts and a drummer and thats it...can everyone do that? NO!!! He took loops
and arranger them in Kontakt and then in Sequenecer and thats what you call an MS
demo? How the FLOCK in the world would you call this an arranger demo when the
Develloper itself confirms this is NOT MS!!! Listen to the demo again, no arranger can
do that, it has 20 variations and fills, it is clear sequenecer work...stop with this MS
shit already, either OPEN it up or hide it underground.

I seen a lot of discussion's about this MS station,But it will never beat a T3 or PA2 on this moment.First, never heard and seen a decent demo on You-tube or anywhere else.
second ,a horrible website with too much technical specs and screenshots but nowhere a good sound recording.
Al we like too hear is a live recording using the MS as a arranger keyboard,if you or the MS can't do this it is a lost case on this forum.
It is a VST player and Not a Arranger keyboard.
And give a good demo with a Good keyboardplayer ,that wil help ,i think.

Impuls
Netherland's(Country of the best arranger players in the world! ) :-)

Excuse me?
You ask for a Demo and you got one.
It is not an arranger mode demo but it is a demo that shows what you can do on the MS.

The MS is not just an arranger. Remember that the MS can load DAW software programs, samples and loops on it.


And, Yamaha, Roland and Korg all have sequenced demos to showcase their arrangers.

This demo of the MS really shows who understands the concept of the MS and who does not. The MS is not about onboard sounds or styles but what the user does with it.
This user chose to use loops, external sounds and other production tools on the MS. Because it sounds good, the only thing the detractors can say is that it was not done in arranger mode.

quote:
Posted by Nedim :"Listen to the demo again, no arranger can
do that, it has 20 variations and fills, it is clear sequenecer work...stop with this MS
shit already, either OPEN it up or hide it underground."

Nedim on MS you have 8intros-8varaition-8Fill in-8endings and on every pattern you can program 36 chords.

this is not posible with big 3.remember i am a roland fan like diki to i used roland Va-76 before but i like korg arrangers to, i like MS becouse it is unlimited for style creators.




[This message has been edited by AFG Music (edited 08-17-2009).]

Completely right and i completely agree with you but there is a BUT:
Stop deffending it as an Arranger, which it can do a job as the big 3, deffended as a
Workstation or what it is, get my point now?

when developed/edited the song under qranger, then is missing only to add the all markers patterns and you can play the songs like one styles. http://www.lionstracs.com/flash/audiodemo.html

I will try to edit the Sbaglio GIGA with the all markers and then I shown you how can be played as a style. ( 300Mb of Real Guitars GIGA)

This demo is of a midi file, it is NOT the arranger section of the MS played AS an arranger. The arranger section of the MS will not sound that good.

For a start Q-Tractor (what Q-Ranger uses) does NOT recognise VST's. I would suspect the OP actually used Ardour or similar.

You need to first create a faux patch list and re-assign patch mappings and then some other trickery to fool Q-Tractor into loading a VST. IE you have to trick it into thinking it is a Giga patch.

Using the PA series (1 or 2) and using an external module (Motif XS) I could within about 15 minutes have styles playing all the sounds of the rack. I can mix and match between the rack and the Korg for live sounds, etc etc etc.

On the PA I could write a style within about an hour. It would be very basic, but at least I would not have to go re-mapping patches and writing new patch maps JUST so I could add one VST sound to the style.

This demo is exactly what I can do on my PC, using VST's and loops within Sonar. It's nothing new. If that was what I bought the MS for I would still have it.

And being a PA2x owner (and a PA1x owner) from an arranger viewpoint the MS is way WAY behind. It does not even use proper MIDI protocols, rather it uses TCP. (Transfer Control Protocols).

But then you have to wait for the manufacturer to re-map all those TCP data so you can even use a basic midi pedal!!!

I repeat other comments that as an arranger you NEED it to be able to play on-bass, slash chord types (for those who still do not know EG Bb/F E/G# F/C) where the bass DIFFERS from the actual chord. The MS cannot do them, you cannot even program them in the so called style editor.

You cannot use the arranger over the full keyboard. It only works in split mode.

The MS is NOT an arranger and please do not try to talk about something you nothing about, but feel you have to champion the MS cause like some mis-understanding Don Quixote.

If it were not so heavy and cumbersome and expensive (talking our money here NOT Euros), I MIGHT have kept it JUST to play VST's and as a sort of controller keyboard.

But with other MAJOR operational facets either not working, not working as advertised or causing the OS to crash, it was not worth any further grief.

Some of you people make me laugh. You have not so much as touched a MS, but here you all are saying how wonderful it is, how great it is, it is such a good and great arranger.

All I say is go an buy one, try to figure out even how to START using it (there is no serious manual apart from what the buttons are, and even then some of those do not work anymore because the OS has changed so much) and then try to program.

THEN come back here and extol the virtues of the MS as an arranger. I think the cobwebs will well and truly have grown large by that time.

Luckily I have a pretty logical mind, so with what scant information there was, trial and error, and the on/off switch I figured it out. And help from Magica.

Dennis

Hi Dennis
Just to quote some your points:

Wrong! I can load the same midifile on qranger and play it to the same sounds engine and MUCH more, + save it as Style song, ready to play under the patch.



wrong again. Qtractor is able to load embedded VST too, is only on Qranger that we have removed this feature because on Live stage we will NOT open the all VST GUI, all must be running on background. Ardour on MS is not compiled with Midi, all the sequece are made by Qranger. The main problem is that you still not have understand how to use the Qranger, simple.


On Qranger can be made in less 1 minute: http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/qranger/QrangerEMCmulti.wmv


same as before, the problem was that you are not able to editing on qranger..of course we know about the small display 800x600... soon now give the multiple VGA.



For this feature we have to hardcode the Qranger for integrate your Bheringer midi pedal, for only 1 user I wil not make. Let me see if your midi pedal is working for the all other keyboards too and then I map too.


And this can be never working because the qranger is a Timeline SEQ and NOT a RAM based system


Wrong! On Main style GUI, press F4 "LEFT" and then move the splitpoint to Hig notes like C8. You still not have found this OLD feature.



On MS you can use the Qranger LIKE as one arranger OR you still have the possibility to use the Livestyler module integrated...or is NOT one arranger?


For that now I have developed the GROOVE X6 and GROOVE DJ..


With the last OS 3.2 with the fixed kernel, the OS is nice and you know that. This bug OS is not caused from the MS OS but from the 64studio.com developers. Do you have forget what you have asked to Daniel at 64studio.com?
"> I am aware and will accept any
> risks involved in loading new software.

Good :-) It shouldn't be too dangerous, but you can always do a clean reinstall of the distro if things go pear-shaped. Cheers Daniel!"

better that I not continue now....is enough..

You see Dom YOU don't understand. You have no idea what I am talking about when using the arranger in full keyboard mode DO YOU!!!

It means you can still play melody notes over the arranger section.

I KNOW the split can be reset...uh DUH!!

You refuse to see all the shortcomings..and if you keep posting excerpts from conversations I have had with others, I will start to post a few of yours..

You know, the ones where you guaranteed all the systems on the MS worked!!! Under our laws I could instigate legal proceedings for false advertising.

Or the ones where YOU berated other MS users...including some members here.

Or perhaps Yamaha would be interested to know you are using pirated Yamaha software?

Or Native Instruments perhaps, or others.

Instead of trying to belittle people (and even then with information that is untrue) you would be far better served in diverting that time into actually fixing your keyboard.

You know, the sections YOU guaranteed to work, the sections YOU advertised were fully operational.

So be careful what road you choose!

Yes you should stop, as the conversation with Daniel was private, and in any case I did not proceed as it was then I decided the MS was crap and to move on.

The overall reason for me giving up the MS was not about the keyboard, well it was, but not all.

It was the betrayal of trust from you Dom.

I TRUSTED what you said about the MS, I trusted you were going to fix things. I believed that these issues you were taking seriously.

But you did not.

You kept adding more and more toys. And for each new toy meant the fixes to the REAL problems on the MS were just that much further away.

And I am really tired of the constant BS that it is always someone else's problem. It is NEVER to do with you.

Well it IS your problem and it IS 100% to do with you.

You design it, you market it, you SHOULD support it.

Whether that costs you money or not.

You had all these functions working, but you arbitrarily chose to fully change the motherboards and operating systems so therefore it was YOUR responsibility to make these work on the news systems. IMMEDIATELY, not wait for some Linux developers to do it for you.

Dual screen operation is NOT an issue with any other Linux system apart from Kubuntu. Performance mode worked on earlier systems?
Surely you researched all of these things BEFORE changing the hardware?

No, YOU wanted new toys and gadgets on it, so at the expense of users you charged ahead without any thought for users.

I am NOT the only one with this thought. There are others, who I will not name, and they may not even tell you, but they think it.

All anyone gets from you is either a) it is all perfect and anything that is not is the users fault or b) you cannot afford to fix
just keep waiting.

Well not all of us are richboys who can just muck around with a keyboard whenever it suits them. We need them for our work as well as pleasure. We do not have the luxury of having "gun" Linux programmers at our beck and call.

If you produced just produced one full and complete manual that would be a major step forward.

In the end Dom you again do not get me. I have NEVER said overall the MS is crap.

JUST the arranger part. The rest is okay.

Sorry James, I don't get that one, what does it mean?

It means I'm shocked and I can't believe my eyes after reading the content of the thread, but really I guess I'm not shocked at all truth be told. I've voiced my opinion on the mediastaton for long enough so I guess the Emotion I should have used was one to show that I'm disappointed.

Disappointed to know that you had to go through all that crap.

Regards
James.

Cool, I get it now Thanks James, for both the explanation and the empathy.

Dennis